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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Theogony_IX on August 08, 2014, 09:47:00 PM

Title: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 08, 2014, 09:47:00 PM
Hi all, I'm new to RPGs and new to GMing, but I think I've got a fairly good grasp on the game rules and mechanics.  The issue I'm having is that my Wizard player seems to be throwing power around on a completely different level than my other players.  I put three of my players up against a Denarian in a learning session (my fourth players was not in attendance), and the wizard nearly took the Denarian out all by himself in two exchanges.  I'll give a basic description of the important parts of the conflict, then I'll list the primary parts of my player's characters.  Hopefully you all can give me some advice on what I may have done wrong, how you guys let your players build/play wizards, etc.

Sorcerer - Maneuver against Denarian lasting 2 exchanges, pass tag to Wizard. 6 shifts of power total.
Denarian - Huge attack against Sorcerer.
Wizard - 10 shifts summoned, 9 controlled tagging maneuver (1 shift fallout), after Denarian defense and armor - 15 shifts of stress,
Emissary of Power - Fists attack, after defense and armor - 5 shifts of stress.
Sorcerer - Maneuver against Denarian lasting 2 exchanges, pass tag to Wizard. 6 shifts of power total.
Denarian - Huge attack split between the 3 of them. Clear Minor Consequence.
Wizard - 9 shifts summoned, controlled tagging aspects consequences, and spending fate points, discipline roll finally equalling 12.  After defense and armor - 16 shifts of stress. Denarian taken out.

It's somewhat frustrating for my other players to watch one of them throwing around attacks in the high teens, and them only in the high tens.

Power level: Chest Deep

Evocation Wizard - Total Refresh Spent: 7
Conviction - 5
Discipline - 4
Lore - 2
Athletics - 3
Evocation Specialization - +1 Power Fire
Thaumaturgy Specialization - Undetermined
Focus Item 1 - +2 Control Offensive Fire
Focus Item 2 - +1 Power Offensive Fire
Focus Item 3 - +1 Control Defensive Spirit

Thaumaturgy Sorcerer - Total Refresh Spent: 7
Conviction - 3
Discipline - 5
Lore - 4
Athletics - 2
Evocation Specialization - +1 Power Fire
Thaumaturgy Specialization - +1 Complexity Diabolism
Focus Item 1 - +4 Complexity Summoning and Binding

Minor Talent Cop - Total Refresh Spent: 6 (1 power (custom ability "Truth Sight"), 5 stunts)
Guns - 5
---(Pistol Weapon:2, Stunt single use Weapon:4, Stunt Maneuver)---
Alertness - 5
Empathy - 4
Deceit - 4
Athletics - 3

Emissary of Power - Total Refresh Spent: 6
Inhuman Strength
Sponsored Magic - Channelling only
Guide My Hand
Marked by Power
Fists - 5
Endurance - 5
Conviction - 4
Athletics - 3
Discipline - 2


Has anyone else run into similar issues?
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: bobjob on August 08, 2014, 10:11:58 PM
Wizards can be powerful... but they can only be powerful for so long. Every time they cast they take mental stress and from the looks of it, your wizard was throwing out some serious power which should account for a consequence or two (or at least some serious stress). The other players wouldn't necessarily have to do this if they aren't casters themselves, meaning they can in theory go all day long. Not only that, but casters have the Laws of Magic to worry about and any Wizard will also have to potentially worry about the Unseelie Accords. You want to see your Wizard hampered? Throw in some mortals. Throw in a signatory of the Accords who is doing something nasty but is legally acting under the rules.

Not only that, but his Specializations seem off for the amount of Refresh spent. I think he should only have +1/+1 at this point, not +1/+1/+2

What's the power level of the campaign? Your Emissary seems to have two +5s but they are only using a minor amount of refresh.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 08, 2014, 10:21:29 PM
The power level is Chest Deep, 8 refesh, 30 skill points.  Most of them have 2 skills at each level.  If I remember correctly, the wizard has only one skill at 5 and more skills at 2 and 1 than the others.

I think, those are focus items you're seeing on the wizard.  2 slots each from evocation and thaumaturgy.
+2 Control offensive fire
+1 Power offensive fire
+1 Control defensive spirit
Total of 4.

His specializations are:
+1 power to fire
As yet undetermined thaumaturgy specialization.

Or did I do something wrong there?
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Baron Hazard on August 08, 2014, 10:29:54 PM
ive only ran a couple of games, but both of them had fairly wide arcs. And refresh has always been a pretty good balancer as far as i've run into.

There are certain times where certain people shined, and wizards can often be powerful, they have abit of an edge which comes from the drawback of fallout/backlash and finite supply. They have alot of power to dish out but the tank runs empty pretty quick, meanwhile your emissary of power (who isnt using all of his refresh it would seem) gets to throw his fist 5 + inhuman strength around, dozens of times if need be.

Also with that in mind, perhaps your sorceror, Emissary and Cop character may wanna be passing tags back and forth between them to help level the playing field, as that would make a difference.

I also dunno what Truth sight is or how it works, but if the character is that concerned about his combat viability he may find himself more suitable as a pure mortal for the extra 2 refresh and stacking combat stunts. TBH one of the most dangerous characters I had was a well-twinked, stunt-stacked prepared pure mortal. Granted not usually what I go for in my games, but he was actually more of a problem for me to balance than the wizards with the rest of them.

Id have to see full character sheets to say alot more on the subject, and if they are all looking for pure combat viability, we may be able to help bump them up abit. xD

Also its a matter of your setup: If these were just random thugs that'd be one thing and they'd prolly get wiped up by the wizard, but three denarians. Unless they were fighting three denarians that all happened to be magog, you are looking at some people with LOTS of power, but also scary clever and smart. Before attacking this group, they'd have done their research, they'd have pegged the wizard as the biggest threat from the get go, and from their theyd either purposefully force him to expend his power by staying on the defensive, or they'd use some magic of their own to lock him down. If they needed to attack, they'd coordinate and make him their number 1 target (hit him hard and fast, take down the heavy guns and mop up the rest.)

As with all things in fate, the narrative is a big factor.
 
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 08, 2014, 10:42:17 PM
This is a common-ish issue. Wizards have really powerful attacks, and they're very easy to optimize.

Your example is a bit worse than average, though, because you've got a Sorcerer feeding Aspects to the Wizard and making him look better. Plus the encounter played to the Wizard's strengths, and the non-Wizard characters look rather unoptimized.

So I don't think you did anything wrong (unless you let him keep the shift of power that he lost to fallout), but there are ways you could mitigate this issue.

Wizards tend to be glass cannons unless they're strong in crafting. And yours isn't. In fact, your wizard is notably bad at crafting. So just hit him.

A smart opponent will always target the fragile but offensively powerful guy, and opponents with Speed or Stealth or just high Alertness can easily get the first punch in. If they can put a consequence on him, they can tag that to dodge his attacks or to hit him again. If you can put the Wizard on his back foot, he won't be so fearsome.

Also, long fights tend to be hard on Wizards. Maybe a smart opponent sends out some trash monsters to waste spells and steps in once the spellcasters are tired. Maybe there's a group of opponents, and they don't stay in the same zone so they can't be area-attacked easily.

If your opponents have Fate Points or access to sponsor debt, it might be a good idea for them to spend it early on weathering the Wizard's initial strikes. As you saw in this fight, one big attack can lead to another bigger attack when consequences are tagged.

If the other players are feeling inferior...point out how much benefit the Wizard got out the Sorcerer's maneuvers in that fight.  If they think the Wizard solo'd that Denarian, they're just wrong.

Maybe also rework the characters a bit...Inhuman Strength and Channelling are a really weak combination.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 08, 2014, 10:59:09 PM
DFRPG is a game where channeling or evocation can just bring more boom than anyone else, hands down, and also a game where rituals/thaumaturgy can tend to overshadow everything else in noncombat situations.   The game has a lot in common with Ars Magica that way, although non-spellcasters have a lot more scope to be mighty than a companion or grog.

The channeling spellcaster is something you just have to accept is going to get in his hits, unless you can lock him down or ambush him somehow.  Wave attacks are a good approach, and just having bad guys willing to turn big shift hits into consequences that the non-wizards can then tag, instead of being taken out can do quite a bit.  Also if your bad guys have any fate points when the fight is over that didn't come from losing the fight, you're not using their full potential.  The best way to deal with a huge shift wizard attack is to spend fate like mad until the targeting roll misses.

The main defense against thaumaturgy is pacing - keep the tension up so the ritual dude has to rely on their basic abilities most of the time, rather than always being able to stack a bunch of extra things up for the high grade thaumaturgy.  Also remember the limitations, primarily the need for a connection.  The skill monkeys in the party help you MAKE connections, making thaum possible at all, even if it as crude as the cop arresting somebody, taking their fingerprints and getting them to state their name while the wizard is watching....
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 08, 2014, 11:12:35 PM
Hmm, okay, so it sounds like I can balance the playing field a bit with tactical choices, which is what I was thinking of before I posted.  I hadn't considered any of the tactics you guys suggested, but they sound perfect.  I also want to encourage my players to fight smarter as well.  Rather than just throwing big punches, think of how to throw the right punches.  I think seeing some tactics like that from me will teach them to keep flexible.  Thank you.

My Minor Talent wanted a support character and is fairly happy with how it turned out.  His Truth Sight is a strange sort of assessment system he and I negotiated.  One of his stunts is a Guns Maneuver that gives the target an automatic -2 on their next action roll, and he must pass the tag from the maneuver to another player.

The Sorcerer just got into the game, what I described was his first session, and he seems pleased with it so far.  I think that's mainly due to a lack of reference points though.

My Emissary of Power player is the one who is feeling frustrated.  He likes games but he isn't a deep down gamer at heart so I've been watching his play style and tweaking his character for him as we go.  I'm definitely open to advice on his load out.  The idea behind his character is basically a fist of God, but rather than the White God from the New Testament, he wanted to be thematically connected to the Old Testament God, fire and brimstone and such.  For that he brought up these ideas:

Samson - Inhuman Strength
Moses - Control over fire and water
Ezekiel's visions - Guide My Hand

If you guys are willing to help, maybe we can come up with something thematically appropriate that synergizes better though.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 08, 2014, 11:40:04 PM
My first thought for "powerful Chest Deep Old Testament Emissary" would go something like this...

Superb: Conviction, Intimidation
Great: Discipline, Lore
Good: Presence, Endurance
Fair: Empathy, Athletics
Average: Alertness, Rapport

Guide My Hand [-1]
Sponsored Magic: Soulfire [-5]
Marked By Power [-1]

Holy Symbol (+2 offensive control for Soulfire)
Robes (5 shift block against attacks, 5 times per session)

That'll give him powerful attacks, decent defences, and really good Intimidation. Plus he'll be able to improvise skills he doesn't have at Superb with Guide My Hand.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Baron Hazard on August 09, 2014, 12:05:14 AM
However if he wants to go the more physical route, and you dont want everyone casting spells for diversity sake xD id consider simulating his elemental powers with claws/breath weapon. Though tbh i dont have my books on me and i havent looked at either in a long time. Also consider letting him drop marked by power, its a good roleplay tool but doesnt add alot for that refresh and the idea can still be paid for by his high concept.

As far as tactics dont forget to remind them that maneuvers can simulate attacks too. Its one thing i love about the system. For instance lets say your emmissary of power went toe to toe in a one on one. Instead of rolling to deal stress each time, he makes 3 consecutive maneuvers with fists, lets say, "seeing double" from a head blow, "popped knee" from a front kick to the knee and then "hyperextended elbow" from rolling the enemy into an armlock. Then when he finally goes for a big blow, hes looking at a +11 before rolling or spending any fate points.

I love the way it can be used that way in s fight.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 09, 2014, 12:40:18 AM
Sanctaphrax built a very elegant character there, but yeah, I am a bit leery of going the spell caster route with two other casters already in the mix. I thought he might like the off-caster option to a physical character, but Sanctaphrax is probably right that it splits his potency a bit.  Maybe a thematic claws effect might be good to add to the I.H. strength.  Breath weapon does mention throwing a self generated weapon, which is potentially, very cool, but is, in essence, similar to casting a spell albeit a single rote with unlimited supply.  At least this way it feeds into his strength though.  The only other thing I can see is an item of power.  It might help beef up his defense a bit since it discounts.  If I drop the Marked by Power ability, that might allow him to have both of the above and gain a toughness or recovery ability as well depending on the size of the item.  Maybe like a Moses staff or something.  That would even make him a group tank which isn't bad.

Is there a maneuver Stunt idea out there that might act like a lure or provoke effect?

I'll ponder on this bit, but I'm always open to more suggestions.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 12:50:55 AM
Quote
Is there a maneuver Stunt idea out there that might act like a lure or provoke effect?

Taunt.  It's in YS under Intimidate.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Baron Hazard on August 09, 2014, 12:51:52 AM
Also any maneuver that makes sense could be invoked or tagged to force a course of action such as attacking a specific character.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 12:53:22 AM
Also any maneuver that makes sense could be invoked or tagged to force a course of action such as attacking a specific character.

Yeah, although intimidate has a specific trapping called taunt.  And my mistake, "infuriate" is the stunt that gives you +2 to taunt.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 09, 2014, 12:58:19 AM
Hmm, that kind of tanky character has me excited.  I'll see what he thinks though.  I have a feeling he's going to want fire power.  Everybody wants to be the DPS engine.   ::)

Thanks for your help, all.

Really good advice for balancing my spellcasters with my non spellcasters.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 09, 2014, 01:09:22 AM
You can get a fair bit of tankiness for 1 Refresh if you take Supernatural Toughness or Inhuman Toughness and Recovery with a +3 Catch. Which, for a holy warrior, might be something like wounds inflicted by people with free will.

And since nobody else in the group has physical powers like Strength and Speed, that might be a good niche for this guy. Supernatural Strength and a big sword makes for a lot of hitting power. Dunno how well that fits the holy warrior concept though.

I'd be inclined to keep Marked By Power because this guy sounds like a big Intimidation user, but it's not actually necessary.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Haru on August 09, 2014, 01:11:15 AM
Well, the math holds up, but the wizard has already spent his 4th and 3rd mental stress box, so it's downhill from there. If there's more opponents in the fight, there's going to be a problem for him at some point.

In the fight you describe, I think I would have had the Denarian attack the wizard with all it got. The wizard is obviously the most dangerous opponent, and the Denarians are not stupid. If it was a powerful attack against 3 player characters, it should be a devastating attack against one.

There's also something to be said about the division of labor. Look at how Harry and Murphy enter any battle. Harry will protect the two of them, because his magic is better for that. At the same time, Murphy's gun will be effective against a lot of things that would otherwise be immune to Harry's magic. If you build the group looking at their respective roles, everyone will be able to shine, even if they don't do any attacking.

For example, the sorcerer will pretty much always be outclassed by the wizard, because he chose to basically create the same character but with less power. If he went for something like "sponsored magic: demonology", he could go for a whole different angle with his magic and do some amazing stuff with evothaum. He could even go for a bond with a demonic entity that grants him some other powers altogether, like strength, speed, etc.

The cop would fare far better in a social setting, I believe, so switching it up from physical conflicts from time to time will make sure he'll shine as well.

I don't really know what to do with the emissary, but Sanctaphrax seems to have taken care of that already.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 01:12:25 AM
I like Marked by power.  +1 to every social skill...
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: bobjob on August 09, 2014, 01:46:59 AM
True, but that goes both ways. You are a representative of your patron so speak with care.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 09, 2014, 07:06:38 AM
How does something like this look?  Samson didn't really use traditional weapons so I went with a non weapons build.

Item of Power 1 [+2] (Breastplate Armor:1 against fists, claws, and sharp weapons)
   Inhuman Toughness [-2]
   Inhuman Recovery [-2]
      Catch [+2] (once holy items that have been profaned)
Item of Power 2 [No Discount] (Clawed Gauntlets - possibly connected to the breastplate by scale arm guards)
   Inhuman Strength [-2]
   Claws [-2]
Guide my Hand [-1]
Marked by Power [-1]
(Possibly) Infuriate Stunt [-1]
Total cost: -7

I'm a little confused about the Infuriate stunt.  From how it's worded in the books, it sounds like Provocation and Infuriate are only useful in a social conflict that eventually turns physical or to force it to turn physical.  If a player wanted to use it while already in a physical conflict, they would perform a social maneuver as their action for the turn, and then compel the aspect with a fate point to force the target to attack them?  Is that how you would do that?
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 10:50:04 AM
They use it in a physical fight using their action.  I have a Tanky fighter with infuriate and I've used it several ways:

-As a social attack.  Usually as a lead-up to combat, which I tag consequences for effect to start fights.
-As a maneuver tagged for effect so they pick on me and no-one else.
-as a block.  Usually blocking all attacks except those targeting my character (essentially making my character the most viable option
- if the Gm allows, a block against all attacks. (To represent that they are so angry, they can't hit anything). I'm not sure I'd allow this in conjunction with infuriate, though.
- a block against movement ( they are so angry they will stay to fight instead of flee).
- I sometimes pass the tag the maneuvers to represent how the person is too distracted by my character that other people can hit them easier.

No FP .  Just use the free tags. 

He has toughness, recovery, high attacks and big damage.  I had one iteration of the character do nothing but taunt in fights while the wizards obliterated everything... I almost never got a chance to attack things.  In fact, having upgraded recovery(supernatural ) and a couple extra mild consequences was more important than  a strength power.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 11:17:18 AM
Double post

Regarding the build.
Claws seems like wastes refresh.  Just give him weapon2 gauntlets...something like a manopele would probably be weapon 1 or 2 anyways.  I'd upgrade recovery for that refresh or take a stunt that boosts his attack accuracy

Breastplate feels like armour 2 to me...

Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 09, 2014, 06:02:28 PM
Those are good points.  I will sit down with him next time we meet and discuss it with him.  I'll see how willing he is to give up his offensive strength to make him a real tank.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 09, 2014, 06:48:09 PM
I don't see it as an either-or thing.   Here's a concept I had for a modern day version of Jacob, who wrestled Uzziel and won, skinned for a 30 skill 8 refresh game

5 athletic, might
4 conviction,fists
3 end, intimidate
2 alert, whatever you like
1 whatever you like

-2 Righteousness
-1 Holy touch
-4 SU toughness (not tied to human form, su stuff just slides off him)
+3 Catch (mortal weapons/fists without any supernatural assistance)
2 Human form (powers only manifest against supernatural opponents, to equalize.  This is a glow like that around Mouse's muzzle, it can't be hidden, can't be controlled and likely there are aspects to compel action against appropriate foes too.  Given the source we might have glowing, phantom wings, halo or whatever)
(minor talents with < 5 refresh of power get only inhuman levels of power, those with <3 refresh get only su strength, those with 1 or less refresh get only claws)
-4 SU strength  (human form limit means only for direct attacks on supernatural or to overcome obstacles separating you from such an enemy)
-1 Claws (same limits as strength)


This guy was built to be a wrestler, and do pretty significant stress in a grapple against a supernatural opponent.  If folks don't have powers his raw skills are generally plenty to win anyway.  For him, his powers were all about equalizing, so an ogre who didn't use his supernatural strength could punch him and bypass toughness, for example.   Without the desire for holy touch and claws you could fit in supernatural recovery, or eliminate the human form weakness, where he can't control his powers.

He's got fairly respectable offense (6 fists, 6-7 stress for strength-oriented attacks, 7-1=6 might, 5-6 stress in a grapple as supplemental action depending on if his opponent is affected by Holy Touch), he's pretty durable (high athletics plus su toughness against most high shift attacks, and nothing stops him from wearing body armor against mortal-weapon attacks), he's got intimidate for taunting and social attacks at a respectable level.   Should you need some kind of weapon to beat a catch or to handle a specific situation, turning on Righteousness lets you do weapons skill (or guns or drive or a social skill) with Conviction, and he can back it with SU strength.

Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 06:55:38 PM
That's an awesome use for human form.  Jaytee was looking for an 'equalizer' power and spent lots of time customizing, but this way is a very smooth way of doing it.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 09, 2014, 06:57:20 PM
I edited the above to explain it better.  Feel free to steal it.  I got the idea from the Sword of the Cross power, but skinned to not automatically work.  OTOH, it's better for dealing with things like a car dropped on you by an angry wizard, or escaping a grapple from Magog.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 09, 2014, 07:02:25 PM
That's a pretty cool build.  The "transformation" is a nice thematic touch as the power of God bolsters him when in line with God's agenda.  Almost a sponsored magic type effect for physical powers.  I may indeed steal that.

Can you guys break down the rules justification for a +3 catch for things like people with free will and people with no supernatural powers.  That seems pretty high to me seeing that a powerful NPC or supernatural being can't get a hold of these easily and it doesn't sound like common knowledge.  I just want to check my catch adjudication skills.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 07:05:28 PM
Can you guys break down the rules justification for a +3 catch for things like people with free will and people with no supernatural powers.  That seems pretty high to me seeing that a powerful NPC or supernatural being can't get a hold of these easily and it doesn't sound like common knowledge.  I just want to check my catch adjudication skills.

+1 It requires research
+2 easily accessible (NPC's and supernatural beings can hire mortal goons to smack him.  Since those goons have free will and have no supernatural powers they count as a catch.)  There are lots and lots and lots of mortals around.


If a wizard, like Harry decides to shoot this character, it'll bypass the toughness.

Edit:  I'm not sure what Sanctaphrax had in mind for "free will" but I assume it's anything with positive refresh would act as a catch.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 09, 2014, 07:18:12 PM
Hired goons, right.  I suppose even a broke villain can hire some drug addicts or homeless for relatively little to throw some punches for them.  I can see the +3 then.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 07:23:24 PM
Some villains don't need to hire goons.  Mortals can be very, very dangerous.  Look at Marconi.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 09, 2014, 08:54:14 PM
Right.  Also the way I wrote the catch, a bad guy could just not use his supernatural powers.  A ghoul could head-butt him with normal strength instead of SU strength or claws (although in a ghoul case, it'd have to be one of those martial-arts or ninja ghouls who don't just fight with ferocity, otherwise the high concept is likely to be compelled).  A ghoul could also go get a fire axe or something and hit him, as long as he held back on the strength (same control he'd need to stay in human guise when a fight started)

Yes...Dresden could shoot him, hit him with a staff or punch him.  Of course then you're up against his athletics of 5 and formidable melee combat skills, so you're playing his game.  He still gets to hit Dresden for all his strength+claws because Dresden's got the power to zap him with magic for a zillion shifts.

Using a faerie make sword or something like that, he gets his toughness even if a mortal is swinging the weapon.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 09, 2014, 09:53:16 PM
Here is what I came up with.  I put all of the physical powers under the changed form.  The idea being that God manifests these powers in him, and they're not something he calls up as he needs them or just because he wants them.  The rules for how they manifest are listed below mostly unchanged from what you had and are primarily instantaneous, meaning that if someone tries to ambush him with supernatural power, the corona appears and the toughness is there to meet it.  The exception to what you had is that they are based on him following a righteous path.  (This was a character element he asked for in his back story when we first started working on his character.)  The further he strays from a righteous path, the weaker his powers become against supernatural foes.  (It fits thematically with the covenant Judaism has with God.  Follow the path and God will provide, but stray from the path and reap what you sow.)  I also swapped out Holy Touch for Guide my Hand just to add a little extra utility.  With claws and Supernatural Strength, he should be plenty good, and if he wants he can add some gauntlets, or knuckles dusters, or something for an added Weapon:1.

Question though, did you mean for this

those with <3 refresh get only su strength

to say supernatural strength, or did you mean Inhuman?

Powers:
Righteousness [-2]
Guide my Hand [-1]
Human Form [+2] (Powers only manifest against supernatural opponents to a degree in accordance with following a righteous path.  This is a glow like that around Mouse's muzzle; it can't be hidden and can't be controlled.
Against powerful supernatural beings with more than 5 refresh in powers, the player gets the full compliment of powers listed below.
Against minor supernatural beings with less than 5 refresh of powers, the player gets only Inhuman levels of power.
Against those with less than 3 refresh, the player gets only Supernatural Strength.
Against those with 1 or less refresh, the player gets only Claws.
Each of these is dropped by one step if the player has not been following a righteous path.  This effect can stack.)
   Supernatural Toughness [-4]
      Catch [+3] (Damage inflicted by mortals or damage inflicted without any supernatural assistance.)
   Supernatural Strength [-4]  (Limited to direct attacks on supernatural beings or to overcome obstacles separating you from such an enemy.)
   Claws [-1] (Same limits as strength.)

Total cost: -7

Skills:
Superb: Fists, Might
Great: Athletics, Conviction
Good: Intimidation, Endurance
Fair: Investigation, Alertness
Average: Presence, Empathy
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 09, 2014, 10:28:55 PM
change to for your build for the humanform limit, to work in toughness and fix my typos:

Against any creature with 5 or more refresh spent on supernatural powers, full powers manifest.
Against minor supernatural beings 3 or 4 refresh of powers, only Inhuman Strength,Tough+claws
Against those with 2 refresh, the character gets only Inhuman Strength,Toughness
Against those with 0 (eg, wizard constitution) or 1 refresh, the character gets only Claws.
Refresh cost is calculated without considering bonuses similar to catch, item of power or human form.
Each of these is dropped by one step if the character has not been following a righteous path.  This effect can stack.)

Also changed "player" to "characer".  God in DFRPG doesn't care if the player is a bad person, as long as the character behaves well :)

Re: Guide my Hand  - my character was explicitly a wrestler who fought barehanded, so the holy touch was pretty vital to the concept.  In your case, Guide My Hand is better and, with Righteousness, should give him a fair amount of extra out of combat utility if he's got fate points and a free pass to always be present whenever supernatural mayhem goes down.  The Righteousness Desperate Hour is also one of the very few ways for a melee thug to get an area attack, even if it is only mostly useful for sweeping away minions....minions are something high shift/melee type characters have trouble dealing with quickly.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 11:19:25 PM
Have you looked at the limitation power?
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 09, 2014, 11:24:32 PM
@solbergb:  Haha!  True enough, character not player.  I like those corrections though.  I think I'll run with them.

@Taran:  What do you mean?
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 09, 2014, 11:34:54 PM
(click to show/hide)

It's kind of like the Catch but it gives you a bit more freedom to customize...and you seem to be customizing Human Form pretty heavily...

I find it a tad confusing since I haven't used it much.  Sanctaphrax could help you with it.

To be honest, I'd just use human form.  You either have  your powers or you don't.  Once you have them, it's up to you to use them wisely.  Maybe you don't need Supernatural strength is over-kill...be careful you don't accidently kill them.

It'd be good for compels as well.

In fact, all that stuff could be done with compels.

Your god doesn't think you need to be really strong here. Lose a level of Strength... *shiny Fate Point*
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 10, 2014, 12:00:48 AM
Hmm, that's interesting.  The concept probably fits better with what we're trying to do, but the mechanics of it seem a little rough considering the fractional refresh rebates.  The only real change we're making to human form though is that we're introducing stages to the powers attached to it.  Creating guidelines for Involuntary Change is inherent in the ability, but adjusting the ability payout certainly isn't  At the end of the day I could always make it an all or nothing thing based on righteousness and remove the refresh scale.  That would fit it directly into Human Form.  Or I could keep the scale but have it adjusted only in accordance with the character's righteousness and not be tied to the opponent's refresh at all.  That would make it somewhat similar to an effect a wizard faces when breaking his/her word.  I do like the idea of that second option as it creates more of a slope rather than a cliff for the character's decisions in game.  It allows for more give and take when I'm compelling his less than righteous aspects.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 10, 2014, 12:40:18 AM
I kind of like the all or nothing way (because it's simple) and then using compels to do adjustments on the fly.  But if you and the player are o.k with keeping track of the individual powers, it would work.

The only reason I suggested limitation is because he may end up with a larger rebate...or maybe not since limitation is one the those 'judgment call' kinds of powers.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 10, 2014, 01:12:08 AM
Personally I'd prefer an all-or-nothing Human Form/Limitation (they're not very different), but that's more personal taste than anything.

That aside, I recommend raising Conviction to Superb. You get +1 to every skill below Conviction when using Righteousness so it pays to have it as high as possible. And it makes Guide My Hand more effective too.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 10, 2014, 04:41:12 PM
I further simplified the build.  I still like the idea of a partial granting of powers since it fits the character he described better than an all or nothing situation, but rather than so many I dropped it to three:  full, half, none.  I also brought Conviction up, since Sanctaphrax is right about Righteousness being that much better this way.  This looks like a solid build.  Thanks for your help, all.


Powers:
Righteousness [-2]
Guide my Hand [-1]
Human Form [+2] (Powers only manifest against supernatural opponents to a degree in accordance with following a righteous path.  This is a glow like that around Mouse's muzzle; it can't be hidden and can't be controlled.)
   Supernatural Toughness [-4]
      Catch [+3] (Damage inflicted by mortals and/or damage inflicted without any supernatural assistance.)
   Supernatural Strength [-4]
   Claws [-1]
   (Powers granted are dropped by one step when the character makes a decision that strays from a righteous path.)
      1: The character gets the full compliment of powers listed below.
      2: The character gets only Inhuman levels of power and Claws.
      3: The character gets no powers.

Total cost: -7

Skills:
Superb: Fists, Conviction
Great: Athletics, Might
Good: Intimidation, Endurance
Fair: Investigation, Alertness
Average: Presence, Empathy
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 10, 2014, 07:07:30 PM
For example, the sorcerer will pretty much always be outclassed by the wizard, because he chose to basically create the same character but with less power. If he went for something like "sponsored magic: demonology", he could go for a whole different angle with his magic and do some amazing stuff with evothaum. He could even go for a bond with a demonic entity that grants him some other powers altogether, like strength, speed, etc.

I'm looking into this, and because he's new to rpg's and this game as well, I want to be able to describe how this can be amazing.  What can he do with evothaum that would be amazing?
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: PirateJack on August 10, 2014, 08:55:28 PM
Evothaum is one of those things that depends mostly upon the creativity of the player to be effective. If he's taken Sponsored Magic: Demonology it could lead to Binder-esque summoning sprees mid-combat. If he's taken Summer Magic he could create miniature volcanoes or sprout hedge maze labyrinths to separate and confound his enemies. If he takes Sponsored Illusions he could create the image of an angry dragon casting its gaze down upon the battlefield, intimidating everyone into submission.

Just think of anything thaumaturgy can do, but limited by the power you have on hand rather than with a long, complex ritual.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Haru on August 10, 2014, 10:37:58 PM
I'm looking into this, and because he's new to rpg's and this game as well, I want to be able to describe how this can be amazing.  What can he do with evothaum that would be amazing?
Well, evothaum is "thaumaturgy at the speed and methods of evocation". That means he can do a spell that would usually be too complicated to do with evocation. I especially like to use this for the "simple action" ("solve improbable or impossible problems" YS263) option of thaumaturgy, which basically lets you do a spell in place of using any other skill. Almost the entire chapter on Thaumaturgy can be applied to evothaum. The scope of what you can do is only limited by your imagination and what your table will accept. Well, and the number of shifts you can control in one roll.

With demonology, for example, you could hastily summon a succubus that seduces a thug, putting a rapport block on him. Depending on how you handle it, this could hold for longer than a regular evocation block (though "with evocation methods" usually means short term spells). Or summon a spirit into a car and have it crash into your opponent as an attack with drive and whatever weapon rating you might give a speeding car. Or you cast a temporary possession on yourself, increasing your strength to replace might for one roll.

There's other things as well. You could, for example, put up a ward instead of a block, that will be triggered at a certain condition. You could set up a ward as a ring of fire that will spring up, once someone is inside the warded area. You could set up a counterspell ward on the scene and it will jump into action the next time someone tries to cast a spell, having the spell turn chaotic.

He could funnel magic into a weapon and hand it over to another character who is better at swinging them around, so the other character suddenly attacks with a 10 shift weapon. It'd be sort of like a potion effect.

He won't have to go for demonology, of course, it's just the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "sorcerer". As PirateJack says, things like Binder's grey men could be done with sponsored magic. Maybe put "human form" on there as well, so he needs one action to summon the first batch of suits (which I wouldn't charge him for), and then he can use his minions to justify things like an investigation roll when he sends them out to look for him, or a fists block when they surround him as meat shields, etc.

In addition to EvoThaum, you'll get to take debt with sponsored magic. That basically means that you preaccept a compel on the theme of your sponsored magic for spending a Fate point you don't have right now. This is incredibly useful if you need an extra oomph to your spell. But taking debt with your sponsor can do a lot more than that. I've had players ask their sponsor to create a thunderstorm that would benefit them, for example. A sponsor can also absorb casting stress, if you need him to. Usually at a conversion rate of 2 points of casting stress for 1 point of debt ("The Dark Powers are always willing to help" YS289).
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 11, 2014, 12:17:42 AM
i told him about it and I do believe he is on board.  ;D

A couple questions:
A good portion of power can be added to the spell by reducing the amount of time you want it to last on the Time Scale.  So with a Conviction of 3, and reducing the duration of a Ward from a day to a few minutes, 6 steps, you could conceivable form a 9 shift ward for only a single stress as long as you can control it.  Is that correct?

Summoning and Binding seems really complicated and requires a fairly high number of shifts.  I read a while back about a simplified version of summoning that people seemed to get behind.  How might something like Binder's Grey Men be done on the fly?
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Haru on August 11, 2014, 01:12:54 AM
i told him about it and I do believe he is on board.  ;D
Excellent! :)

Quote
A couple questions:
A good portion of power can be added to the spell by reducing the amount of time you want it to last on the Time Scale.  So with a Conviction of 3, and reducing the duration of a Ward from a day to a few minutes, 6 steps, you could conceivable form a 9 shift ward for only a single stress as long as you can control it.  Is that correct?
"With Evocation's speed and methods" usually means that the spells cast with EvoThaum last as long as a regular evocation would. I would probably allow a ward to last for the scene (15 minutes on the time chart), which is my default duration for such things, In a conflict, I wouldn't use the time chart to keep track of time, but exchanges, as that's what a conflict is measured in. So a spell will either last the entire scene or X exchanges, with the usual rules for prolonging spells.

Quote
Summoning and Binding seems really complicated and requires a fairly high number of shifts.  I read a while back about a simplified version of summoning that people seemed to get behind.  How might something like Binder's Grey Men be done on the fly?
Well, this is going to be something that you will get vastly different answers, depending on the peoples style of play.

I personally would not make the summoning an extra thing in a sense that I wouldn't do it like a spell. Instead, I would say that Bender can only do something with his magic, when he has his minions summoned. Look at how that is described in Skin Game, it doesn't really take him any effort.

So I would write him like this:
Human Form [+1]
 affecting:
  Sponsored Magic (grey suits) [-4]

The human form means that he can not use the power unless a condition is met. We can choose that condition as we like. For a werewolf, it would be the change from "beast change", but in Binder's case, it's simply that he needs to have some of his minions summoned. That isn't really an action. If he knows he has to fight, he can simply say that he summons them beforehand, and they are there. If he is already in a conflict, he'll need to take an action to summon them. No roll is needed for that, he just declares that's what he is doing, and that uses up his action.
When a circle shorts out his suits, he can't do anything anymore, which is very well represented by this, I think.
But like I said, your mileage my vary on this. If you'd rather have a mechanical way to summon the grey suits, we can certainly come up with something, though others might be more suited for that.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 11, 2014, 02:13:06 AM
Excellent! :)

"With Evocation's speed and methods" usually means that the spells cast with EvoThaum last as long as a regular evocation would. I would probably allow a ward to last for the scene (15 minutes on the time chart), which is my default duration for such things, In a conflict, I wouldn't use the time chart to keep track of time, but exchanges, as that's what a conflict is measured in. So a spell will either last the entire scene or X exchanges, with the usual rules for prolonging spells.
]

Hmm, that would definitely take out some of the power.  I'm not sure if I'd wholly agree on that though from what I read in YS.  I'll have to ponder whether I want to leave the duration of thaumatugy intact or convert it to evocation.  If I do leave it intact a limit on how short to go is probably a good idea.

Quote
Well, this is going to be something that you will get vastly different answers, depending on the peoples style of play.

I personally would not make the summoning an extra thing in a sense that I wouldn't do it like a spell. Instead, I would say that Bender can only do something with his magic, when he has his minions summoned. Look at how that is described in Skin Game, it doesn't really take him any effort.

So I would write him like this:
Human Form [+1]
 affecting:
  Sponsored Magic (grey suits) [-4]

The human form means that he can not use the power unless a condition is met. We can choose that condition as we like. For a werewolf, it would be the change from "beast change", but in Binder's case, it's simply that he needs to have some of his minions summoned. That isn't really an action. If he knows he has to fight, he can simply say that he summons them beforehand, and they are there. If he is already in a conflict, he'll need to take an action to summon them. No roll is needed for that, he just declares that's what he is doing, and that uses up his action.
When a circle shorts out his suits, he can't do anything anymore, which is very well represented by this, I think.
But like I said, your mileage my vary on this. If you'd rather have a mechanical way to summon the grey suits, we can certainly come up with something, though others might be more suited for that.

That is a really cool way to build that.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Haru on August 11, 2014, 02:19:48 AM
Hmm, that would definitely take out some of the power.  I'm not sure if I'd wholly agree on that though from what I read in YS.  I'll have to ponder whether I want to leave the duration of thaumatugy intact or convert it to evocation.  If I do leave it intact a limit on how short to go is probably a good idea.
Remember that he can still do regular wards with sponsored magic when things aren't as hectic. Sponsored magic gives you Evocation + Thaumaturgy for a theme, AND it allows you to do some parts of Thaumaturgy in the form of evocation, which is what we've come to call EvoThaum around here, because "Thaumaturgy at Evocations speed and method" is quite a mouth full. Though I won't stop you if you want to do it like full thaumaturgy in terms of duration. I think it's best if you try it like that, and if it feels too powerful, talk to the player and adjust accordingly.

Quote
That is a really cool way to build that.
Thank you. :)
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 11, 2014, 03:12:28 AM
I read a while back about a simplified version of summoning that people seemed to get behind.

Is this (http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Summoning+Rules) what you're looking for?

How might something like Binder's Grey Men be done on the fly?

Using method 1, and assuming a Grey Man looks like this:

Good: Fists
Fair: Might, Guns
Average: Alertness, Endurance, Athletics

Claws [-1]
Pack Instincts [-1]

Summoning one is a 9 complexity ritual before taking into account duration or behaviour. If the grey men are mentally robotic and only good for violence, and the duration is a day, then the complexity is still 9.

So it's 9 shifts per summon, though you get a complexity discount if you summon in bulk.

Bear in mind that these are not strict rules. They're more like guidelines. If they spit out something that sounds wrong, ignore them.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 11, 2014, 04:22:45 AM
Yep, that was the one. That looks fine for a summon, it just makes me wonder about the value of offensive summoning at evocation speed. 9 shifts to summon a relatively weak ally seems meh. 9 shifts of fire controlled gives 18 shifts of stress before defense. I doubt a monster like that would even deal 9 points of stress in a chest deep fight let alone 18.

Then again, I guess you could go with a "called shots" kind of method. Set up a bunch of maneuvers and then go for the big summon.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Cadd on August 11, 2014, 05:19:28 AM
Yep, that was the one. That looks fine for a summon, it just makes me wonder about the value of offensive summoning at evocation speed. 9 shifts to summon a relatively weak ally seems meh. 9 shifts of fire controlled gives 18 shifts of stress before defense. I doubt a monster like that would even deal 9 points of stress in a chest deep fight let alone 18.

Then again, I guess you could go with a "called shots" kind of method. Set up a bunch of maneuvers and then go for the big summon.

Sure, but if you need them for a full day why do you use evo-thaum? ;)
If you're in such a hurry, you probably only need them for a single fight, right? Say 15 minutes tops?

Suddenly that 9-shift spell gives you five of them! (4 for the first, 2 for the second, 1 each for numbers 3 to 5)
Any further shifts would be two more goons per shift...

No quite as"meh" then, maybe? ;)
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 11, 2014, 05:44:40 AM
Oh right, I forgot that these methods were set up with the time scale in mind already. Yeah, that's not meh at all then. Even if the men only land 1 hit each with 1 shift of effort during the entire conflict, that's 15 stress after defense rolls. Plus the distraction factor. I think he'll be able to work with that if he goes the summoner route.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 12, 2014, 08:43:16 PM
Extra actions are very powerful and summoning minions gives you extra actions. I wouldn't let a player use the standard thaumaturgy durations with summoning evothaum.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 12, 2014, 09:13:04 PM
That makes sense. I suppose I could balance that if I only allowed one summon at a time (on the basis that maintaining control on the fly is too taxing to support more than one), the summon can only fulfill a single purpose (attack that one opponent), and maybe roll all other non defense roll actions at -1 [-2?] (attack, block, maneuver). How does that sound? My concern is that allowing summoning on the level of exchanges then becomes little more than an expensive yet more flavorful skill replacement spell.

I will say that the image of a demon popping into existence just long enough to punch you and then showering you in melting ectoplasmic goop is really funny though and potentially terrifying if you're the target.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 13, 2014, 12:02:37 AM
The way Binder works in the books, is that he can have as many summons as he wants out of combat (he summons pretty quickly) to some limit likely based on skills/focus items/etc or even more likely by high concept or other aspect, but in combat he summons one dude per exchange.

That doesn't look like Evothaum to me at all.  That looks like plain old Rituals, where he's just banging out a whatever level of shifts he can generate based on his conviction, complexity based on his skills, without fussing with circles, declarations, blah blah blah.

Just give him rituals, decent conviction, decent lore, focus items to boost both so each exchange he can pop out a dude for a scene and call it done.  You don't get tired with rituals if you don't burn power higher than your conviction.  He can always burn some mental stress and tag an aspect or something if he wants to bang out more than one guy per exchange.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Starjammer on August 13, 2014, 01:12:16 AM
For Binder, based on what we saw in Skin Game, I'd just give him an ability with a refresh cost that allows him to call up one minion per exchange and call it a day.  It's a spell he knows so well he can just toss it off with no thought, like Listens to Wind with shape-shifting.  If you must, tie it to a skill check based on Contacts or Discipline.

For Binder's goons, I'd say a -1 or -2 refresh cost would work well.  Individually they're not strong; Binder has to set them up tactically to gain the most benefit.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Taran on August 13, 2014, 03:05:56 AM
Spoilers...
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 13, 2014, 06:32:10 AM
Spoiler* In Skin Game, I really liked Binder's spotlight spell casting scene. Seeing the degree to which more modest talents, like Binder, can still exercise power is really cool. The same thing with Morty in Ghost Story.

I'll have to play with it and see how it goes. I really like Method 1 of that summoning link Sanctaphrax provided since it fits well with the descriptions in OW of demons and summoning. We'll see if the extra actions from my sorcerer's summons are too powerful. It may equalize with the amount of power of the other spell caster in the group. And then again, it may just become really annoying to have to make rolls for all those extra turns and drag combat out for days.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: narphoenix on August 13, 2014, 06:51:36 PM
And then again, it may just become really annoying to have to make rolls for all those extra turns and drag combat out for days.

If it does, assume rolls of zero for all minion on attack and defense.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 13, 2014, 06:53:06 PM
That is a good idea, thank you!
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: killking72 on August 14, 2014, 04:34:11 AM
You probably didn't have that strong of a Denarian to be honest. Denarians can have their fallen take the stress in Debt, 1 debt for every 2 stress. I wonder, how many refresh did you give the Denarian? Did they have equal, or 1.5x the refresh of the party?
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 14, 2014, 06:47:13 AM
I put the Denarian at equal (-20) refresh in powers. Although I just read today in another thread that the Denarian write ups in OW are pretty bad. I modeled my Denarian off of Tessa in OW and added refinements to equal -20. In other words, she was a powerful wizard with inhuman toughness. Honestly though, my tactics in the fight were pretty bad. I wasn't fighting intelligently like a Denarian would.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 14, 2014, 01:19:07 PM
I have a number of tricks for modeling superhuman intelligence I've acquired over the years, but the first two rules are the simplest.

1.  If I'm really that smart, why am I in a position where PC's can fight me at all?  (the answer had better involve amazing motivation or incredibly bad luck or a hell of a lot of work by the PC's to get them in that position or some kind of gambit where win or lose the current conflict, the smart character wins in the end).  Also what are their 5-6 options for escaping if things go south?  If they're that smart and lived that long, they'll have some, and in a game like DFRPG, concessions combined with a really clever escape plan that impresses the players (and earns grudging respect from the characters) add a lot to the game.

2.  Make sure you have system mastery of at least the circumstances of the fight.  This is especially true if they're not merely brilliant, but also experienced.    The character should have anticipated much of the circumstances and allowed for it, even if they didn't expect the PCs to be there (if they did, expect answers to each Catch and hammering on aspects if they'd have any way of knowing about either, counters to the most potent, known offensive abilities, etc)...but even without knowing PCs might intervene, a spellcasting Denarian's going to have potions, enchanted items, pre-cast spells running, delcarations or similar maneuvers cast offscreen as an edge and one or two brutally effective approaches to combat that should work against a wide variety of enemies that should prove helpful, including access to some of the more common "catch" stuff...eg, they'll know where all the iron is on the scene if a fey shows up, and will have the lore to rapidly identify them as Fey if they don't know already.

For a really good example of what brilliance+experience on both sides looks like, consider the fight of the Archive vs most of the Denarians.  She and Kincaid killed most of them, had a plan for most situations but in the end, even with Harry failing to be distracted out of the fight, they accomplished their objective.  Brilliant on both sides = bloodbath but also layers within layers of defenses that get exposed as one side gets defeated and it tears away most of the contingencies and plans of the attacker in doing so.

If you can't answer #1 and #2, the highly intelligent/experienced individual is best left offscreen until you've had time to think it through and learn more about the game system.  You can have brutally effective ambushes done via minions (which can fail in execution because the minions aren't as brilliant), or some NPC that the PC's already respect defeated off-camera or similar to build tension and reputation, or attacks in social arena (a whispering campaign, or something like what Mavra did, blackmailing Dresden with something Murphy actually did that was wrong...)

Now not all Denarians rate this treatment.  Those that don't care about their hosts and have pride or overconfidence as part of their fallen nature (think Magog) consider losing their host the cost of doing business, and spend a lot of time wrapped in white hankies.  Those guys will mostly have some brutally effective tactics but will stay and fight until defeated if you poke on their aspects a little...they don't seem to think of defense much.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Starjammer on August 14, 2014, 01:55:43 PM
There's a general rule of tactics from Shadowrun that applies equally as well to the Dresdenverse:  Geek the mage first.

If you allow a wizard to stand off and get their spells in order and then throw fire down on you, you're toast.  A wizard who gets prep time is a wizard who wins, barring overwhelmingly powerful opposition.

OTOH, if you hand the wizard his ass before he even knows you're there, you win.

Another thing that can work in your favor is if the wizard lacks imagination - or at least has less than you.  If you can create a circumstance where the wizard cannot bring his magic to bear effectively, you also tend to win.  Note: this is why Harry practices running and carries a big gun in addition to a blasting rod.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 14, 2014, 10:08:51 PM
Wow, yeah, that's a great way to model your super intelligent villains.  Contingency plans within contingency plans.  That is something I'm going to have to add to this first scenario I'm running.

I have a newbie Kemmlerite setting up a spirit devouring session.  Not a full blown Darkhallow, but a good way to boost his power.  While this is happening he is attempting to seduce my White Council Golden Boy PC onto the dark side by giving him a taste of Death magic.  A Red Court Noble is attempting to swell his ranks in the city and snag my Fist of Yahweh PC into a Red Court Venom addiction.  (The two villains are working in concert - the victim's deaths caused by the new vampires create the spirits that the Kemmlerite is gathering up for his ritual devouring.  To facilitate this, the Kemmlerite is using his human goons to distract the cops while the vampires raid apartment complexes.)  At the same time a group of kitchen witches in the area are going to attempt a cleansing at the old closed down theatre the Kemmlerite is using as storage for his spectres.  The idea isn't to confront the Kemmlerite or even the Red Court Noble, but to disrupt the spirit devouring ritual and keep the kitchen witches from being killed by the insane spirits being kept at the old theatre.

From what you say though, my Kemmlerite should have at least 2, if not more, contingency plans in place to ensure that even if he can't seduce the White Council PC into necromancy, that he can still complete his ritual, and if not that, have a couple plans for escape.


GMing is not an easy job.  I gotta think smarter, not harder.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Haru on August 14, 2014, 10:15:20 PM
GMing is not an easy job.  I gotta think smarter, not harder.
The trick is to teach them to tie the noose around their necks themselves. Once you've got that figured out, it's a smooth ride. ;)
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 14, 2014, 11:09:18 PM

From what you say though, my Kemmlerite should have at least 2, if not more, contingency plans in place to ensure that even if he can't seduce the White Council PC into necromancy, that he can still complete his ritual, and if not that, have a couple plans for escape.


This sort of planning is most important on really long lived folks who also have experienced a lot of life and death situations.  So Mavra, a rare black court survivor, is shown as thinking really hard about Dresden when her scourge comes to town.  She fills the place with mortals, arms them with a variety of things difficult to defend against, puts out a decoy to "die" and actually spends the whole fight veiled and upstairs, taking pictures, so all the really destructive things that occur downstairs don't touch her AND she learns even more about Dresden and his allies - which she uses later to get her hands on Kemmler's book and eliminate anybody but Dresden who might have read it....

That's a very convincing portrayal of an intelligent survivor, maximizing her own abilities and limiting the scope of her enemies, using mostly resources she doesn't care about.

So if your Kemmlerite is somebody like that, someone who survived perhaps the White Council war on his former master and the hunting down of disciples, he's not going to try to seduce a White Council wizard without a damn good backup plan.

OTOH, there has to be a pretty big payoff to risk involving a WC wizard, so his alternative to do the darkhallow-thingie must either also be hazardous or it'll be less effective or, if neither, he's getting big fate point compulsions from aspects to involve THAT wizard in spite of an adequate alternative....in which case he'll be doing the alternative with a big wad of fate points in hand if the WC wizard does try to interfere.

At a bare minimum, his escape plan should be solid, or it isn't credible that he survived this long.  A perfectly adequate precaution is to not seduce the WC wizard in person.  The simple expedient of a phone call, or a letter writing campaign helps quite a bit, although they have the downside of being liable to interception, so maybe the mail drops off a stone and ritual instructions for the communication spell.  Or you work through surrogates that you can afford to lose, etc.   A WC wizard is mostly dangerous in line of sight, or with a connection to you that you don't know about.   Don't do the seduction with either of those things available (if using a ritual stone for communication, rig it so if very much power goes through it fries the connection, etc).

Now to kill two birds in one stone, have your flunkies be signaled when the WC wizard contacts you, so while you're doing the "come to the dark side" seduction, your minions are doing the apartment complex raids etc....ensuring that wizard won't interfere with minions not up to his weight class.

Red court noble has another problem - they tend to be long lived and cunning.  Again, best way to deal with a Fist of Yahweh is to introduce the venom while you are nowhere near the situation.  Spike his drink or his food, or send some flunky who has displeased you to try to introduce the venom addiction....I'm dubious that the venom would work very well on a True Faith type character given red court catch, but maybe the Noble's trying under the principle of "you never know until you try".

One payoff for clever PC actions is to maybe get in the same room with either of the manipulators to force a physical confrontation, where normally neither would get caught out that way.   Eg, the WC wizard insists on personal instruction out of a claimed fear of wardens and an insufficient skills with magical detection and veils to ensure privacy without his "mentor" helping, then sets up some kind of ambush.   The Kemmlerite then might enter a hornet nest of PC nastiness, but still should have a lot of routine items/potions/thaumaturgical aspects and basic all purpose escape and combat plans for ambushes.....I dislike "he escapes in black box text" type fiat ambush failures...I want it to fit the mechanics of the game.  DFRPG/Fate is easier than most because of the concession mechanic, but it still works better if everyone can believe their character would fail to catch the bad guy via the rules of the game, however expressed.

What I have found satisfying is when somebody like that has a realistic set of contingencies for an ambush, ANY ambush, not just the PC's (just look how much better Dresden got after a few years at war).   If caught in an ambush, a character like that doesn't fight.  He runs (see Nicodemus, pretty much always when at a disadvantage).  If the PCs have a really, really good plan, maybe they learn some cool new tricks for their own use later, and if they can compel the right aspects they might be able to keep the person in one place long enough to take them down...but it should feel like a hell of an accomplishment, and PC's should end the fight feeling like the dog that caught the wildcat...
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 14, 2014, 11:14:50 PM
The trick is to teach them to tie the noose around their necks themselves. Once you've got that figured out, it's a smooth ride. ;)

A long time ago, I ran a Traveller campaign, and there was a little book of adventure seeds.  One went something like this "while leaving the planet the PCs are framed for smuggling and release is contingent on infiltrating local pirates...."

Well...my PC's had in FACT smuggled stuff onto the planet and were trying to smuggle more stuff out.  Frame them hell.  They were guilty :)   Some plot hooks are easier than others.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 15, 2014, 12:06:50 AM
Nice!

My Kemmlerite is of the Corpsetaker persuasion, so he switches bodies.  Where the story stands right now, he has taken the body of a local minor talent who is a trustable old lady who appears to have some kind of motherly relationship with the gang of teenagers the Kemmlerite is using to distract the cops.  My wizard PC has just arrived at her home without his companions there to back him up.  When they sit down to talk, the old lady will weave this story web of how The Day of the Dead is this big countries-wide ritual to hold the power of Death at bay from the world, and she is versed in combating this power.  The same power that has been popping up at ritual locations around Las Vegas binding spirits and moving them forcibly around Las Vegas.  She will offer to teach him how to combat this power, but really she is going to teach him how to access it, and while he's deep in concentration, attempt to take a drop of blood from him (success, one of the other PC's will tell him after the fact that he has a nose-bleed; if failed, he will notice the nose-bleed right away before the lady can take any).

With successfully taking the blood, the Kemmlerite will set up a spell to disable the wizard.  At the same time the Red Court will send some ghouls to attack the other PCs.  The spell the Kemmlerite manufactures will have two ways out:  An extremely successful endurance roll (rare), or a magical defense only if using the power of Death to bolster the spell (an easier path to escape).  Having willfully accessed the power of Death, and me compelling the PC's aspects "the temptation of power" and "to the rescue," I should be able to put enough pressure on him to really make him feel like he's tipping over the edge.  I figure, sprinkle in a couple innocents that need rescuing, and maybe a Senator Palpatine speech at some point, and I might be able to get him to devour a spirit or two . . . with the best of intentions.  (Oooh, maybe I should have him attempt to kidnap one of the other PCs so they need to be rescued in order to really put the pressure on.  Maybe have that happen in the same scene with the ghouls.)

The Red Court Noble is a little trickier.  He's new to his position and fairly brash due to thinking he has something to prove.  His attempt to gain the Fist of Yahweh as a tool is more an action of opportunity rather than a well thought out plot like the Kemmlerite's.  He's got a two pronged attack on the will of the Fist of Yahweh.  The Fist has a reputation for being somewhat impure being into gambling and girls (the setting is Las Vegas).  The character he wanted to build was one that really struggled to remain on the path of righteousness.  My thought was to have him use ghouls to harry the group, but have a pair of Red Court throw in on the fight when the Fist needs them to make an alliance seem really appealing.  Then, when the Fist goes down to the strip club to either investigate these actions of confront whoever is doing this in the Red Court, use his penchant for weaknesses of the flesh to get him alone with a stripper and a healthy dose of Red Court venom into his system.  Being that he isn't living righteously, I think his faith would do little to protect him.  If he avoids the fleshly temptation, then maybe he can be talked into an alliance after seeing how helping a couple Reds can be as back-up.

What do you guys think?  What might you add or remove?
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 15, 2014, 12:45:25 AM
Ok.  Your Kemmlerite needs to be in the room with the WC wizard to get the maximum payoff (blood).  If you're a body switcher, the obvious last ditch escape plan is to have another person within line of sight when you take the big risk, or  hell, better, have their hair or something which lets you switch when they aren't even in the room. 

If the WC wizard reacts badly to the attempt to get blood, and it looks like he'll do something you can't easily talk yourself out of or escape by other means. swap with the other body, while he's threatening/interrogating the poor schmuck that is now inside your former body.

Totally in character, totally fair.  If you escape by more normal means (talking your way out, physically escaping, winning a throwdown) fine and good, but if the wizard gets the better of you, his big reward is learning that you're a body-switcher, assuming he doesn't just kill the poor schmuck you swapped with (he probably won't, as you are mortal too, hence lawbreaker but he could have a gun or knife or something).

So you've got 3 conditions, all interesting.  1, you get the blood and Plan A is in operation, 2, you don't but manage to escape via physical or social talents that don't give anything away, and maybe pushed him into a little necromancy trying to stop you 3, you are forced to resort to your emergency body-swap spell (preferably done as an enchanted item or potion to make it nearly impossible to prevent without foreknowledge of such a power) and he learns you can DO that.  So now he knows if he really wants to stop you he'll have to have to shut that down...which again might tempt him into necromancy as an obvious counter.  Plus he has to be paranoid about anyone he encounters, because it might be you.

Plus a bunch of other options where he ends up willingly going to the dark side and working with your necromancer, just cause he wants the power or is convinced via social interaction.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 15, 2014, 12:51:19 AM
  Being that he isn't living righteously, I think his faith would do little to protect him. 

Yeah, that's a pretty good approach to work around the faith protection.  Gives him a nice out too, he can overcome the addiction later by living more righteously and having the holy burn it out of his system (or at least start the road to recovery from any consequences).

I think the basic approach of putting as many ways to get venom around him WITHOUT throwing down against him is sound.  Preserves the resources of the Red Noble, gets him used to thinking of Reds as allies, etc, which should open a lot of opportunities for eventual addiction if the first attempt doesn't succeed.  A RC Noble is long lived, patience is going to be in the mix - even a "brash young lord" is probably a few hundred years old and "needs to prove something in a hurry" is still likely measured in months or years, not hours or days.

Ghouls are a good counterpoint to the two mastermind types, gives some straightforward opposition to burn off tension or frustration.   

Only risk  I see is that with so much attention given to these two characters, the rest of the PCs better be given something pretty cool to do in the ghoul fight, something that pushes their buttons, to share the spotlight and such around, and to distract from the more subtle maneuvering.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 15, 2014, 02:24:50 AM
Good point about the RC noble.  I'll keep that in mind with how he reacts to whatever happens in this scenario. 

And the body switch to escape plan sounds fantastic.  I'll add something like that in.  Outcome 1 and 3 sound like the greatest amount of drama, so I'll probably skew in favor of those two outcomes.

I've got one PC who's new to the campaign, and I haven't figured out how to include him yet.  He's the (now) evothaum sorcerer.  I'll have to see what aspects he chooses to fit him into the plot.  I'm worried it might be difficult, so I'll keep your suggestions in mind and give his character many opportunities to shine.

The last PC, the minor talent cop, went off the rails.  I don't think I'll have to worry about him feeling included.  I was originally thinking he would have to deal with some internal conflict, struggling between watching his friends succumb to their darker nature if he clings to his "loner" and "sole survivor" aspects, and wanting to get involved to keep them on the light side of the force.

Instead he killed a teenage gang member in our first session while he was MIA when he was supposed to be on duty.  Now internal affairs is involved in his life.  He then goes to a "gray arts" practitioner to get the evidence in his car (which held the body) cleaned up.  While he's there, he can't afford the cost of the wizard's services so he offers hair from the Fist of Yahweh in payment.  On his way out he steals a grimoire from the dark wizard and narrates it in a way that there is no way the the wizard won't notice shortly after.  So now, not only is IA on his tail, but now a dark wizard has a score to settle with him.  He's definitely my most entertaining character.

I have plans to have the dark wizard track him down, hide behind a veil to ambush him, block his friends from interfering and having a stone hunter demon grapple him into immobility so the dark wizard can search him for the Fist's hair he's holding in his pocket, and take some of his hair as well as a threat to hold over him. Where it goes from there, I haven't decided, but I'm thinking it's a good opportunity to create some tension he has to deal with before the big event at the haunted theatre.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Starjammer on August 15, 2014, 03:48:42 AM
All of the above is good stuff - nah, more than that, it's gold.

However, I'm going to play devil's advocate and offer the cautionary counterpoint here, just as a reminder.  As a GM, it's not your job to "win" the game, it's your job to provide an entertaining game for your players.  Intricate plotting and dramatic reversals are all very good, if that's what your players go for.

I speak from experience:  If your players aren't up for this kind of game it's possible to intrigue yourself right out of a campaign.  If you stack the deck too heavily against your players or short-circuit their options, they may resent it.  If you stack the deck too heavily against them and then have to give them an obvious out to preserve them, it makes them feel powerless to affect the outcome.

So the other important question to ask yourself when making these intricate plots is:  How do I see my PCs getting out of this one?  Long-lived intelligent bad guys are great plotters but they tend to be rigid or arrogant.  (That's what makes Nicodemus the most dangerous villain, the fact that he's not.)  Powerful bad guys tend to lean too much on their power; shut it down and they have to scramble.  Bad guys with an agenda tend to think solely in terms of that agenda or they have a psychological soft spot that the agenda is designed to compensate for.  You don't have to plan the heroes' victory for them (they won't follow that plan in any case) but you do have to make sure that there are holes in the bad guys' operations.

Your original problem was that you let the PCs steamroll you - and that is a genuine problem.  Just make sure the pendulum doesn't swing too far in the opposite direction.  I'm going to reiterate: As a GM, it's not your job to "win" the game, it's your job to provide an entertaining game for your players.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 15, 2014, 01:52:06 PM
The goal is to make all options entertaining, success or failure.  Failure just leads to deeper stories.

The problem in a game like DFRPG is that the opposition ranges from a plain, ordinary thug or police or bystander who doesn't understand to literal gods.

It's a thing in this series, a lot of why the stories are entertaining, to have opposition, older, wiser, more powerful and beat them anyway.  But you don't get that level of satisfaction without earning it.   Cowl isn't Cowl because he scared Harry the first time he met.  He's Cowl because Harry foiled his plans and every time they've met again, Cowl's avoided direct confrontation and STILL nearly killed Harry, plus accomplished something, even if not his primary goals.   Marcone's picked a different arc.  Mavra a third.  Nicodemus a fourth.

The sign you are on the right track is when players are emotionally engaged in the bad guy.  Marcone's become a frenemy, a much more interesting outcome than Harry blasting him to ash after he "lost" a soulgaze in the first book.  Harry never got Cowl, but Cowl's so badass that his "minions" are all at about Harry's weight, so he got the satisfaction of getting the other Kemmlerites the first time, the White Court (cripes, most of its leadership) the second time and Peabody the third time.   Mavra's an example where the GM maybe pushed it too far, and having her permanently exit the game in favor of the Nickleheads was a good move.  There was no way to make Mavra's conflict more interesting, Harry's final threat was convincing - it was the player saying he'd make a campaign altering move, possibly ending move, if he saw her again, just to kill her.   The Denarians, by contrast, again have tiers of opposition - we go from merely foiling the plan and defeating one of the minions to pretty much wiping out all of the second tier and perma-killing one or two of their most dangerous human hosts to, well, spoilers.   That story isn't over, and it looks like it may be Michael's story more than Harry's anyway.

This is why I wanted the corpse-swap trick to be an important plot point.  The PC's have advanced against the Kemmlerite in an important way when they force that tactic.  It's a reveal as big as when Cowl and the ghouls got called in, or when Peabody was revealed at the trial.  Changes the whole nature of the conflict, so the players should feel some accomplishment even if the big bad gets away to return someday....even gives  them some hooks on how to go after the Kemmlerite instead of just reacting.

The Red Court plot, by contrast, is an attempt to set up a Marcone-like situation with a side of venom addiction.  Since the path to freedom is clear (live a righteous life) and that's a primary conflict of the character, the player signed up for this kind of plot (just as the White Council player with a temptation of power trouble signed up to be tempted and manipulated by his desires, much as Harry was).

You can do a whole story or campaign without super-competent opposition.  But if you're going to bring in the nobility of the Red or White courts, black court that are old enough to have survived the purges, first generation Kemmler disciples, or non-thug Denarians, your players are going to EXPECT them to be super-competent and be just as let down if behave like a street-corner thug in planning and preparation.  The primary difference between a recurring villain and one that's just there to show how awesome the PC's are and is forgotten the next day is the former knows when to concede or retreat, and does it MUCH earlier.  Give PCs enough time in a fight and they'll win.  Also in DFRPG, losing isn't what it is in other games.  If you miscalculate and your super-competent NPC wins, presumably the PCs were formidable enough to earn respect and then you go with the recruitment offers, or the using them as bait to draw in others, etc, something that furthers the story.     

Hell, losing is a heck of a way to learn about the opposition.  DFRPG greatly supports that trope, if the player's ok with bad things happening to his character before being rescued or escaping somehow.  Seriously, Harry's player has a very strong stomach for that, more than most people.   The game won't work as well if PC's aren't willing to concede sometimes, and GMs are encouraged to show the way by having their bad guys concede, to show it isn't the end of the world.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 15, 2014, 02:12:49 PM
So the other important question to ask yourself when making these intricate plots is:  How do I see my PCs getting out of this one?

Have some options but really, my experience is most PC groups will surprise you.  The trick is to go with it.  That's why I keep harping on "have some strategies of general use" for your competent bad guys.  They'll use something that clearly would work under most circumstances but maybe the PC's did something strange and it's less effective, so they then panic and do something else even more dramatic etc....if the PC's really do out-clever the situation, then they win of course.  Concede or accept destruction if you miscalculate, get taken out and they call for death.  (see Corpsetaker...at least until Ghost Story)

If your PC's have a bad encounter where the players (as opposed to characters) are frustrated, then it's important to change tone while you figure out what happened.  That's one reason I like the ghouls as secondary opposition, and red court trying to "team up" vs a third party...they give some easier, more straightforward physical conflicts for players to feel good about when they show off and win, after maybe getting dinged up a bit.

If your players (or a specific player) don't react well when faced with competent, super-smart opposition, fade that out of the campaign as a primary threat, or keep the focus of such threats on the PCs that are having fun with it.   You want to give the Players what they asked for.  DFRPG/Fate is unusually good about signaling what kind of story they want with their aspects.   Seriously, if they turn out to not like "temptation of power" when they experience it in play they can signal that by changing aspects on an upcoming milestone, or can talk to you about what they meant when they wrote it down if they were expecting something more like "being powerful and being tempted to misuse it" instead of "being offered power in a variety of ways tough to turn down" so you can shift focus.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 15, 2014, 11:29:17 PM
That's actually a really good counterpoint, Starjammer.  I should include some general operating flaw in some of my antagonists, a fatal flaw as it were.  Maybe turn it into an aspect that can be assessed, but only in the right situations.  Or give them a standard operating procedure in most circumstances that reveal a pattern of behavior.  A couple of my players are gamers at heart and having a system they can game will make them feel competent.  I can then up the difficulty by better hiding this pattern of behavior/fatal flaw, or have them team up with other villains that have complimentary strengths.  Then, to avoid the game becoming stale, have some antagonists that are rather chaotic in their behavior, but aren't as intelligent.  I probably need to create something of spectrum for my antagonists and place them accordingly.

So if I'm hearing you correctly, solbergb, my NPCs successes or failures should almost always give my PCs an opportunity to gather more information and dig deeper into the story.  Successes move the story toward the NPCs final goals which should provide clues to follow that clever PCs can use to get in the way and create failures for the NPCs.  Failures should reveal deeper insight into the NPC and how they operate.  I.e. it's easy to stay cool when all is going according to plan, but how you react when your plans are going to hell says something about you.  Are there other ways to set this up so that my NPCs actions are helping to feed the story?

To get my players emotionally involved it sounds like I need to have my NPCs press my PCs in places that are personal.  Mavra goes after Murphy, Bianca goes after the an innocent Harry agreed to protect and also attempts to destroy the Sword of the Cross Harry's actions lost, Nicodemus goes after Ivy.

Thinking about this also made me realize I need another set of spectrums (spectrii? spectra? yeah, spectra) for my bad guys: the morally reprehensible axis and the scary axis.  I say morally reprehensible axis as opposed to the moral axis because all bad guys are morally reprehensible even if to themselves they are completely justified.  The scary axis is how easily they can kill you with simple overt force should they ever want to.

I should rename this thread GMing 101.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: solbergb on August 16, 2014, 07:29:23 AM
Fate really emphasizes this more than most systems but yeah.  What you want is INTERESTING outcomes.

If your scene is solid and grows the story whether your bad guy wins or loses it's easy to just let what happens, happen.

In a d20 type game, a miscalculated combat encounter can end the campaign with a TPK...and going soft on the wrong group in a tough encounter to prevent that can destroy the trust and cheapen their victories.   Warts and all, Fate systems don't have that problem, as long as players have the sense to concede or the GM can find a reason why the enemy wouldn't simply always use "die" as a take out result.

The challenge in Fate is to make those concessions believable, and more importantly, interesting.  If things really go sideways, it is perfectly ok to ask for a time out while you think things through and look for inspiration.   The thing with the killed gang member, body concealment, too broke to pay for the magic etc is a good example of that kind of improvisation...the player dug himself deeper and deeper and it just got more fun, and left the GM with lots of future story opportunities to pull in whenever he needs a dramatic shift somewhere.
Title: Re: PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 16, 2014, 06:19:54 PM
Thanks for all your help, guys.  I feel quite a bit more confident about how to run my game.  The rest is likely to sort itself out with real experience.