- What to do about the debt...
o I’m wondering what the cost should be if they use sponsored magic to invoke aspects (for debt rather than fate points). Should they be pushed towards the nature of the spirits they’re “channelling” (at least empathically)? E.g. repeatedly calling upon spirits of the earth could lead you to become set in your ways and unwilling to compromise on issues, whereas water spirits could make you more emotional and induce mercurial behaviour. It would probably be most clear cut with thematic spirits e.g. phobophages or hunter spirits inciting you to inflict terror in others or leading you to act like a predator without mercy or conscience. This could eventually lead to aspect changes e.g. blazing temper, or immovably obstinate. Spirits are stated to understand friendship but not morality, could repeatedly putting yourself in their shoes make it harder for you to retain your own moral compass?
o Alternatively they could be compelled to assist spirits with their own agendas e.g. you have been drawing on a spirit of the earth, they demand your assistance in sabotaging a project to bulldoze a sacred grove or they’re cutting you off...
Thank you for taking the time to read this, any thoughts or criticisms would be welcome :)
So something like this?
SUPERIOR ECTOMANCY [-2]
Description: A master wizard can refine her skills in a particular area so fully that her abilities are qualitatively different from those of a normal mage. While normal specialization simply makes one faster and stronger and more effective, this level of focus provides entirely new capabilities. A wizard with this level of power over ghosts attracts ghosts to herself and can use them to affect the living with all due haste
Sponsor: This Magic is Self Sponsored
Agenda: As this magic is self sponsored, it lacks an agenda
Evocation: This magic does not provide Evocation
Thaumaturgy: This power does not provide Thaumaturgy
Evothaum: All Ectomancy may be cast with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: Immediately gain the benefits of the Ghost Speaker. However, the power of the wizard who has taken this makes it more extreme. You may use Contacts at +2 when dealing with the dead, but spirits can physically harm you, even if they are unable to manifest.
If you're looking at someone who (like Harry) specializes in contracting with Spirits, you might just be looking at a specialized power (like Worldwalker or True Shapeshifting)...
Benefits:
- Standard sponsored magic benefits.
- +1 Control, +1 Complexity to Animancy
- Use Animancy with evocations speed and methods
- Use control bonus from Animancy for evocation instead of discipline provided that the casting incorporates some spiritual element.
Questions that I’m asking myself:
- Kemmlerian Necromancy gives more bang for your buck with an additional thematic thaumaturgy type at evocations speed and methods (Psychomancy). Does the potentially broader nature of Animancy make up for that e.g. there are all sorts of spirits, elemental and emotional. In which case is this too broad a focus? Should there be some additional bonus when specifically summoning and binding spirits (e.g. consider your complexity and control to be one step higher)?
That's exactly what self-sponsored magic is. A specialized power representing an unusual spellcasting ability.
I wouldn't worry about it. Kemmlerian Necromancy gives more bang for its buck than any other sponsored magic that I can think of. It includes 3 1-Refresh bonuses for the price of 2.Probably because it requires that you are already a wizard/necromancer and have access to some portion of Kemmler’s lore (or its equivalent) (whatever that means, probably an aspect).
Probably because it requires that you are already a wizard/necromancer and have access to some portion of Kemmler’s lore (or its equivalent) (whatever that means, probably an aspect).
While on subject, where does the sponsor debt come from? Kemmler is pretty much dead, so?
(nor is it actually sponsored by Kemmlar) but rather by death itself (or at least spirits of death) who are pretty willing to let anyone who can figure out how use their power.
The idea of self-sponsored magic at all is something that, as far as I can tell, was essentially created by these forums.
Either way, the Sponsored Magic power's benefits include the ability to accrue debt. But what does self-sponsored magic accrue debt toward?
Refinements could garner you the same bonuses, so if you created an "Evothaum" power most of these "self-sponsored" magics wouldn't be needed at all.
I realize you're going to disagree with me, of course, but it doesn't make me wrong.
Normal Compels. It's explained in the Power writeup.
I would personally give someone like the Merlin a custom Stunt/Power allowing him to do wards without a threshold rather than Superior Warding. (And he could get Evothaum for Wards separately, but I'm not convinced he has that; a defensive line of Wardens could have protected him well enough for him to do a couple of exchanges of thaumaturgy the normal way, IMO.)
Method 1 [min -2]: Ritual: Animancy (you gain the Ritual power for all thaumaturgy related to spirits where spirits are a class of non-physical Nevernever entity similar to demons or ghosts.) Optionally Refinements in Foci allowing for off-the-cuff spells up to twice your Lore rating. Optionally Evothaum if your GM is a stickler and you want to be able to cast Animancy rituals quickly.
Method 2 [min -3]: Thaumaturgy with a specialization in Animancy. Optionally Refinements for specializations and/or Foci. Specializations may take bonuses above twice Lore but require a more well-rounded character. Optionally Evothaum, as above.
Method 3 [min -3?]: Ghost Speaker. Spirited Negotiator. This isn't as powerful, overall, as using spells would be but it does not cause the character to take mental stress which is a huge bonus if your character specializes in dealing with spirits. Optionally, many characters built with this will likely have some sort of House Spirit. Optionally, you may take Stunts since Stunts stack with the bonuses provided below. (eg: +2 to Conviction when containing a spirit or ghost. +4 to Rapport when dealing with a specific wind spirit).
Spirited Negotiator [-2?]
Musts: You must have Ghost Speaker.
Ghost Sense. You may use Contacts or Lore to find a specific ghost or spirit, or one who meets your needs. This will not FORCE a spirit to come to you, so you may need to go "out and about" (per the Contacts skill). You might try sending another spirit to do this on your behalf, of course, but who knows how that might work out.
Ghostbuster. Once per scene (or 15 minutes, where more appropriate), you may use Lore or Conviction to create a Ward to contain a hostile ghost or spirit. You gain a +2 bonus on this roll if the conflict takes place in a location specifically prepared for containment (such as your laboratory or sanctum).
Abjuration. Once per session (or day, where more appropriate), you may use Lore or Conviction to strengthen the barrier to the Nevernever as an action. If your roll is higher, your result becomes the new barrier rating in this location until sunrise.
Cold Read. Due to your experience dealing with non-corporeal entities from the other side you have become very good at determining what they want. +2 to all social rolls involving spirits or ghosts, as long as you are trying to come to an agreement.
House Spirit [-1]
Sometimes a spirit will develop an attachment to a particular location; often a house. It is also possible to create this attachment intentionally (through True Magic) although doing so without the spirit's permission will often provide more curse than blessing. Such spirits are attached to the threshold of a location and (in fact) feed off of it.
Musts: You must take an aspect relating to the spirit and its location of residence. You must either be a resident of this location or it must have no residents.
Loyalty. House Spirits first dedication are always to the place they inhabit and the "family" who lives there. The spirit cannot take any hostile action except against invading spirits or overtly hostile forces.
Symbiotic Spirit. A House Spirit feeds on the threshold of a location, however as long as the spirit resides there, the threshold can never fully decay. The threshold is considered to be +1 (min 1).
Spirit Buddy. A typical House Spirit is often little more than a mote of light or gust of wind, serving small tasks around the house; such as lighting candles or sweeping up dust. These effects are little more than scenery pieces. They are also able to go anywhere outside their residence on (though they usually don't have any reason to) but must return by sunrise.
Tied to the Threshold. The House Spirit can also be more firmly tied to the threshold. When taking this power, you may voluntarily reduce the threshold of the residence (min 1) to increase the power of the spirit. Doing this should severely limit the spirit's ability to leave the threshold. How exactly this works is up to you and the GM, though a point of threshold being worth a skill point or two seems reasonable.
A 'default' house spirit has a single mild consequence and 3 skill points which do not need to follow normal spending rules. However, the spirit only has access to the skills it has points in.
I tried to make this also be a reasonable way to stat out Bob, although if we're using these rules Bob's skull is probably an Item of Power who's only effect is to create a very large threshold. I also didn't want to add a whole bunch of twitchy mechanics to a rules-light game for the 'minion' NPC so apologies if it seems a little vague.
So...give him the Power, but with a different name?
And I guess without the option to take debt, but that's pretty trivial.
I dunno, I don't really see why the names matter.
That's just bigger numbers. For people whose specializations give them more interesting advantages, it won't work.Which is all specialization amounts to in this system.
So...custom Powers? How's that different from using a Superior Something Power?Because Sponsored Magic is something very specific narratively and comes with a very specific set of effects (on all Sponsored Magic) that I don't think are particularly appropriate to specialization. Better to just create the extra abilities as their own power.
But people with ordinary Ghost Speaker can already seek out specific ghosts with Contacts.So it does. I was looking at in the PDF and didn't realize the power went onto the next column. It still adds a couple things; use on spirits and Lore substitution.
Ghostbuster is a bit vague. Not sure exactly how it's meant to work.Needed to mimic the methods of summoning and binding. Basically its just a very short Common Ritual (like making a ring of salt or some such) that creates a Ward to contain spirits and/or ghosts. And a ward is just a magical block, so you can phrase it that way if you want. So, its some parts knowledge and some parts trickery but I figured it could also be a good way to represent some forms of 'religious' magic (hence Conviction).
I like Abjuration. Don't think it really needs the usage limitation...nobody's gonna break the game by strengthening the border to the Nevernever. Especially not when it's such a small bonus.Well... you might be right, especially if I knock the duration down to 'scene' but the typical barrier strength is Superb which could be improved on pretty well. The real trick to this effect is if you've got something like the Wild Hunt (or even something on a smaller scale) you could probably use it keep the spirits from coming through in the first place.
Cold Read is the strongest effect here, and I guess it's okay. I'm not a huge fan, mostly because I'm touchy about social Powers. The system and setting alike are light on them, I think it's best to keep things that way.Marked by Power does it for all social rolls (at +1). Figured limiting it by target and condition would make it pretty equal. The power is either 2 or 3 refresh and this one is almost certainly worth 1 on its own.
Seems weak. Most of the bonuses are basically useless.
Also, you should include the abilities of the minion in the Power itself.
I was suggesting giving him just the third; as I said, I'm really not convinced the Merlin needs wards-as-evothaum.
EDIT: and in general terms, I think the Self-sponsored "Superior" magics would work better as a stunt for the 'extra benefits'...
Which is all specialization amounts to in this system.
Because Sponsored Magic is something very specific narratively and comes with a very specific set of effects (on all Sponsored Magic) that I don't think are particularly appropriate to specialization.
Needed to mimic the methods of summoning and binding. Basically its just a very short Common Ritual (like making a ring of salt or some such) that creates a Ward to contain spirits and/or ghosts. And a ward is just a magical block, so you can phrase it that way if you want. So, its some parts knowledge and some parts trickery but I figured it could also be a good way to represent some forms of 'religious' magic (hence Conviction).
Well... you might be right, especially if I knock the duration down to 'scene' but the typical barrier strength is Superb which could be improved on pretty well.
Marked by Power does it for all social rolls (at +1). Figured limiting it by target and condition would make it pretty equal. The power is either 2 or 3 refresh and this one is almost certainly worth 1 on its own.
But not in this setting. Or in the games people play. So something more is needed.Place of Power has a genius loci as the sponsor. My thoughts on Kemmlerian Necromancy are in here, but although the RAW doesn't specify who the sponsor is it is very clear that there must be a sponsor. I also think Soulfire should not have been sponsored magic since it just doesn't fit from what we've seen so far, but its also clear that Soulfire (or God) has an agenda in this context. What the RAW DOES say is that "sponsored magic is the name we're giving to spellcasting that draws on power sources other than the caster himself." There's also "In order to gain the benefits
[....]
It's not actually very specific narratively. Only half of the canon examples are actually clearly provided by a sponsor. Place Of Power magic comes from a place, Kemmlerian Necromancy never mentions an actual sponsor, and Soulfire is weird.
A ward isn't just a magical block."A ward is basically a very potent version of a block using Thaumaturgy instead of Evocation." But no, not just.
Is it supposed to be usable as an action in combat?Technically, yes.
How long does it last?Scene, until broken.
Place of Power has a genius loci as the sponsor. My thoughts on Kemmlerian Necromancy are in here, but although the RAW doesn't specify who the sponsor is it is very clear that there must be a sponsor. I also think Soulfire should not have been sponsored magic since it just doesn't fit from what we've seen so far, but its also clear that Soulfire (or God) has an agenda in this context.
So however you design it "self-sponsored" magic isn't Sponsored Magic, because its not actually sponsored.
I've provided several methods for specializing that don't involve "self-sponsored" magic and allowing a player to keep borrow against future Fate Points without some catch is just bad practice.
Anyway, depending on how you count that's either one third or one half of the canon examples which don't fit the model you propose for all Sponsored MagicDepending on how I count Place of Power is one or none. I count it as none, because external source with an agenda even if its not sentient (ley lines).
And yeah, you've provided other methods. But not a "better" method, one which would make self-sponsored magic unnecessary."Better" is entirely subjective. Frankly, I think I have given examples of methods that are mechanically and fictively superior to "self-sponsored" magic. Meanwhile, you haven't given me any reasons at all why "self-sponsored" magic is necessary at all.
Seriously, why do you care?
Why do you care?
Sponsor debt has a catch to that borrowing that self-sponsored debt does not.
...
Sponsored Magic can only be used to further the sponsors agenda and the extra benefits only affect the sponsored magic, so adding these features to normal magic should probably cost a pretty hefty chunk more.
* Bonuses. There is already a way to bigger numbers. I think creating a class of powers specifically to circumvent the downsides of those methods is a bad idea.
* Evothaum. I'm marginally okay but gets overused and isn't terrifically useful for most things. I think for a lot of Thaumaturgy, this probably isn't even necessary. A 1-power-draw spell with materials at hand could take as little as a minute; which even in combat is not a huge chunk of time (in my opinion).
* Special abilities. And here's where the other big problem comes in. The book seems pretty clear on how extreme specialization should be modeled. You CAN do things like shapeshifting or worldwalking with spells, but if you want to do them with a snap of your finger (and not create a nuclear explosion while you're at it, in the case of shifting) then you take a dedicated power. Superior Pyromancy? Breath Weapon. Superior Worldwalking? Worldwalker. Same basic idea (obviously not comprehensive, as is), but no stress or magic rolls required; which is a huge benefit. And let me just point out if you tried to model shapeshifting with "self-sponsored" magic, you'd just be begging for a world of hurt.
* Ambiguity. There's a lot of problems with using a model to represent something very different from what it originally represented but the biggest one here is that some of the way Sponsored Magic works is left ambiguous. When you base an entire model on a particular interpretation or on a 'by the way' and ignore a lot of the very specific 'this is how this works' (assuming its just flavoring, instead), you create a barrel of issues.
@Sancta about Telepathy thing: It doesn't seem like a huge deal. Any wizard in a game of mine would be allowed to do it as a minor effect if the target is in line-of-sight (since it just lets you talk, which is something that isn't a big deal.)
Not so. The sponsor's agenda isn't a problem unless Compelled, and Compels aren't bad.
Unless they're debt Compels. But those are equally bad when they're not sponsor-related.
That's what this is. Breath Weapon and Worldwalker are poorly suited for wizards for a variety of reasons, but the basic idea is sound. That's why these Powers exist
@Sancta about Telepathy thing: It doesn't seem like a huge deal. Any wizard in a game of mine would be allowed to do it as a minor effect if the target is in line-of-sight (since it just lets you talk, which is something that isn't a big deal.)
I don't know where the debt comes in to play.
I don't even know how self-sponsored magic came about. Was it because people thought specialists should be more powerful than Wizards in their field? And then, because specialists can't actually specialize, people figured they needed their own custom Power? If so, I still don't understand how debt comes in to play.
Once again, it seems easier to break down evocation into 3 similar elements and let them take specializations and refinements.
Breath Weapon seems like a fine power for a wizard, as long as they can use discipline to target. It's like a rote that never costs stress.
I actually like the self-sponsored system. The trick is to not look at it as a sponsor, but rather as a specialization power using the same mechanics as sponsored magic does.
Or it's a case of "if all you have is a hammer", and if you have devoted your life to studying wards, your tactics are going to be defensive, building up thick walls and study your opponent, even if the offensive would be a much better choice. Just as with regular sponsored magic, you need to define those "agendas", and they can be very real and they can be used just the same. It's basically another case of "the more power you've got, the more it drives you", which is well established as being a big part of the Dresdenverse morality.
He doesn't really need wards without thresholds either. He really doesn't need much, since he hasn't done much on-screen.
It can't be a Stunt. Stunts modify skills and are generally taken by mortals. That'd be like making the At Range upgrade for Incite Emotion into a Stunt.
It's not actually very specific narratively. Only half of the canon examples are actually clearly provided by a sponsor. Place Of Power magic comes from a place, Kemmlerian Necromancy never mentions an actual sponsor, and Soulfire is weird.
Sponsored magic is the name we’re giving to spellcasting that draws on power sources other than the caster himself (he can still draw on his own power; it’s just not an exclusive arrangement).
These power sources, called sponsors, are at least semi-aware, if not fully-aware, entities. Ancient and strange and potent, they have agendas of their own,
Kemmlerites draw on the power of death itself to fuel their dark magics
Such a source might be
called a genius loci (“spirit of the place”), but other times they aren’t as overtly-identified— they might simply manifest as a particularly potent ley line, for example. No two places of power are the same, with each tying into some entity’s agenda. These entities are often abstract, suffusing the place, but they may manifest a transient physical form when the attunement and binding rituals are performed.
Besides, Claws doesn't have to be claws. That principle holds for Powers in general.
Well, I don't know how else he could have done a ward on a battlefield.
I thought you'd posted in the past that it did make sense to have stunts modify powers, and did it on the Generic NPC thread? Maybe I am misremembering, or did you change your mind?
I'm not sure of that...
...
So it does seem they all have an actual sponsor. I think umdshaman is right that Kemmlerian Necromancy is sponsored by death:
...
As for places of power:
"Each tying into some entity's agenda" suggests to me that even the ley line ones have some sort of semi-awareness and agenda, or are at least a link to something that does.
Compels. Compels are Compels, agenda-related or not.At this point it feels like you're purposefully misunderstanding. There 2 separate points.
Ritual + Channelling is kind of a bad deal compared to Sponsored Magic. Focused Practitioners in general are kind of weak compared to Wizards and Emissaries.A Focused Practitioner doesn't generally have both (not that they can't). They also take significantly less refresh cost than Wizards. And Sponsored Magic has narrative drawbacks. Plus not being strictly balanced doesn't mean there's a hole. And "self-sponsored" magic doesn't really fix that problem anyway, since it all requires that you already have it... or at least that was my understanding. If I'm wrong then I have one more thing to add to my list of complaints about it.
Worldwalker is a bad Power for a Wizard to take, but Wizards who walk worlds want something like it.It's not as versatile as using magic but its actually a really good power, especially for a Wizard who takes regular day trips to the Nevernever. It costs more refresh to get all of the bonuses as stunts, plus it doesn't cost you anything (other than time between entry/exit) to use.
First up, they can't use Discipline.Sure they can. "Hey, GM. I'd like to take Breath Weapon [Fire] to represent my character's specialization in Pyromancy. Can I have it use Discipline instead?" There isn't anything special about the skills the Powers in the book use. They're just the most appropriate to the way the powers are described.
Second up, optimization 101 tells you not to pay full price for redundant abilities. You'll pretty much always be better off with Refinement, or with something unrelated like Toughness.Aside from the fact that "optimization" is just a polite term for "minmaxing" (which is not a good reason to design things a particular way and as a GM would make me that much more likely to nix a custom Power/Stunt) Breath Weapon isn't redundant. Magic costs mental stress; Breath Weapon doesn't. That advantage is not trivial at all.
Third up, Breath Weapon is just kind of weak in general. Low damage and short range.The RAW doesn't really specify, but I'm probably not going to let you throw fire two zones away with evocation, either. As far as damage, in a lot of ways many low-damage attacks are better than a single high damage attack. If my stress boxes are filled (which I can do in 4 hits of any strenght, technically) then I have no choice but to be taken out or fill a consequence regardless of the amount of stress I just took. But, yes, that was just an example. An appropriate specialization substitute would probably need to be a bit more powerful than that.
I've heard speculation about him using the threshold between the Nevernever and the real world or something like that.
Or who knows, maybe there was an old fence lying around.
Off-screen, so who knows
There are limits. "+2 to Investigation with Psychometry" is one thing, modifying the basic rules that your Powers work under is another.
There are hints that maybe some kind of entity is meant to be involved, but the writing doesn't really back that up. Nothing in the novels makes it look like there's anything intelligent behind necromancy, and the rules don't mention such an entity either.
There's always an external power battery and there's usually some kind of agenda-esque-thing (agenda sounds too planned for some of these magics if you ask me), but actual characters who provide the magic are not always present.
At this point it feels like you're purposefully misunderstanding. There 2 separate points.
* Mechanically, a compel related to a specific agenda is rather like having another aspect. Not completely, but sort of. In fact, I'm not sure why (templates aside) an aspect related to your Sponsored Magic isn't a Must. I'd probably house rule that. Anyway, normally the GM compels you to act in keeping with your character normal behavior in an inconvenient way (using the aspects). Since arguably your High Concept (if nothing else) will reflect your sponsorship, the GM is free to compel you to do whatever your sponsor feels you should be doing.
* Narratively, it doesn't seem to make sense that "self-sponsored" magic has a debt mechanic. With Sponsored Magic, you're getting an extra boost from your sponsor. With "self-sponsored" magic, its just there because its part of Sponsored Magic but there's not really any justification for your boost.
A Focused Practitioner doesn't generally have both (not that they can't). They also take significantly less refresh cost than Wizards. And Sponsored Magic has narrative drawbacks. Plus not being strictly balanced doesn't mean there's a hole. And "self-sponsored" magic doesn't really fix that problem anyway, since it all requires that you already have it... or at least that was my understanding. If I'm wrong then I have one more thing to add to my list of complaints about it.
It's not as versatile as using magic but its actually a really good power, especially for a Wizard who takes regular day trips to the Nevernever. It costs more refresh to get all of the bonuses as stunts, plus it doesn't cost you anything (other than time between entry/exit) to use.
Sure they can. "Hey, GM. I'd like to take Breath Weapon [Fire] to represent my character's specialization in Pyromancy. Can I have it use Discipline instead?" There isn't anything special about the skills the Powers in the book use. They're just the most appropriate to the way the powers are described.
Aside from the fact that "optimization" is just a polite term for "minmaxing" (which is not a good reason to design things a particular way and as a GM would make me that much more likely to nix a custom Power/Stunt) Breath Weapon isn't redundant. Magic costs mental stress; Breath Weapon doesn't. That advantage is not trivial at all.
The RAW doesn't really specify, but I'm probably not going to let you throw fire two zones away with evocation, either. As far as damage, in a lot of ways many low-damage attacks are better than a single high damage attack. If my stress boxes are filled (which I can do in 4 hits of any strenght, technically) then I have no choice but to be taken out or fill a consequence regardless of the amount of stress I just took. But, yes, that was just an example. An appropriate specialization substitute would probably need to be a bit more powerful than that.
And yes, an appropriate substitute /would/ have to be more powerful… like Self-Sponsored Magic.
Now, mind you, narratively it matters. But we're talking mechanics here.It's FATE. The narrative trumps the mechanics.
It's not that big a deal. You're essentially just spending Fate Points in advance. And Fate Points are explicitly designed to change how the narrative (dice) goesThat's actually a really big deal. In fact, the RAW basically suggests that the only time you should be allowed to do it is that one per adventure (or perhaps even character) heroic moment. Aside from Sponsored Magic anyway.
Yes, but narrative drawbacks =/= mechanical ones. And have what, exactly?You're the one who decided I was only arguing about mechanics here. I am arguing about a mechanical construct that is ill-suited to represent its narrative premise, as stated elsewhere. And "have what" is that if self-sponsored magic doesn't require you to already have another form of magic than its basically just a more powerful version of Ritual and Channeling. In my opinion, its a bad idea to just plain upgrade the RAW.
Opening a door to the Nevernever is already simple for a wizard to do with impunity. And it makes sense to allow someone to use Lore anyway to navigate the Nevernever. So, to get the +2, it would only cost 1 refresh, so...http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,40855.msg2006067.html#msg2006067
Actually, the advantage kind of /is/ trivial.Well, you're allowed to disagree.
And yes, an appropriate substitute /would/ have to be more powerful… like Self-Sponsored Magic.GOTO 1. I'm not having the exact same argument again.
At this point it feels like you're purposefully misunderstanding.
Sure they can. "Hey, GM. I'd like to take Breath Weapon [Fire] to represent my character's specialization in Pyromancy. Can I have it use Discipline instead?" There isn't anything special about the skills the Powers in the book use. They're just the most appropriate to the way the powers are described.
Aside from the fact that "optimization" is just a polite term for "minmaxing" (which is not a good reason to design things a particular way and as a GM would make me that much more likely to nix a custom Power/Stunt) Breath Weapon isn't redundant. Magic costs mental stress; Breath Weapon doesn't. That advantage is not trivial at all.
The RAW doesn't really specify, but I'm probably not going to let you throw fire two zones away with evocation, either.
It doesn't need to be more powerful. It just has to be something that a specialist can do that a normal wizard can't.
Actually, now that I think of it, maybe it wasn't a Thaumaturgy-style Ward in mechanical terms at all, but just a really big Evocation Block, which he "extended duration" with a second evocation, described as a ward fluff-wise. If they were on a battlefield, all the Rampires might well have been in line-of-sight and accessible for evocation...
And I don't think the agenda necessarily implies intelligence in this setting; YS talks about "semi-aware", whatever that means, and includes ley lines and things. I don't think Harry's Winter Knight Mantle is intelligent, but it definitely acts like a sponsored magic agenda (pushing him toward predatory behavior).
It's FATE. The narrative trumps the mechanics.
And it's a fairly trivial advantage. If you threw out 4 evocations and the target's still standing, Breath Weapon won't get you anywhere.
Taking Breath Weapon actually makes a fire-thrower worse as throwing fire. 2 FP/session would give them more fire-power than a weak secondary attack using a secondary skill.
Personally, I think people who specialize in throwing fire should be better at throwing fire than people who don't.
Thinking out loud, being able to throw out 1-power attack evocations of a specific element without paying stress might be a fair -1 Power.
I assure you, I'm not. I've been saying the same thing over and over again around here for years, this isn't just something I cooked up to annoy you.That's kind of the issue. The thing you've said over and over for years doesn't actually have anything to do with the arguments I made. It's like:
Far be it from me to tell you not to houserule, but that is what you're doing here. The book never gives any indication that you can use any other skill.I'm gonna skip over the rest of the similar comments because the fact is it was an example of a power that could be used. It probably makes more sense to make custom powers. I just don't think "self-sponsored" magic is a good template for it for all of the reasons I've stated.
I also don't think we should bring up the semantics of min/maxing and Power-gaming, optimization. I think the whole conversation will just devolve - it always does.Agreed. It's not actually germane.
And it's a fairly trivial advantage.Again skipping over the similar comments, most of your argument seems to be based on the idea that you'd only face one opponent once per session. And honestly, if you can one-hit (or even 4-hit) that big bad, you're just wasting your time when it comes to rolling the dice. (And actually, yeah, a Weapon:2 can have a pretty big impact at the end of a fight when stress has been taking and consequences used.)
Seriously? I don't think I've ever heard that interpretation before.It's not really an interpretation. More of a house rule. Guns only have a range of 3 zones, but we never see Harry throwing Evocation at the ranges guns can shoot (or anywhere near); line of sight or not. Honestly, it would probably depend a lot on what the zones represent.
What does this even mean?It means I get real tired of people treating mechanics and narrative as two different things in FATE. They're not. The mechanics are there to support the narrative but if the mechanics become to problematic, they should go out the window rather than changing the narrative. You can't have a mechanical balance discussion for FATE without also looking at the narrative impact and seeing if the mechanics even fit the narrative. In short, it was the summation of all of the other times I've said something about not separating the two.
If you're inventing new powers, I think it's an easy house-rule to allow breath weapon targeted with Discipline. I don't think it's fair to throw out house-rules and custom powers but, when it's convenient for your argument, say that you "can't do that because the power doesn't let you."
I also don't think we should bring up the semantics of min/maxing and Power-gaming, optimization. I think the whole conversation will just devolve - it always does.
The power in question (whether it be a custom power or re-skinned power) has to be balanced and give the best flavour for the specialist in question and make them competitive with the 'general practitioners' in their own field of expertise. It doesn't have to be 'more powerful'.
That's kind of the issue. The thing you've said over and over for years doesn't actually have anything to do with the arguments I made. It's like:
"An apple is an apple."
"Sure. Did you know that potatoes are called 'apples of the earth' in French?"
"An apple is an apple."
"Okay... So is that a yes or a no?"
"An apple is an apple."
Just saying.
Again skipping over the similar comments, most of your argument seems to be based on the idea that you'd only face one opponent once per session. And honestly, if you can one-hit (or even 4-hit) that big bad, you're just wasting your time when it comes to rolling the dice. (And actually, yeah, a Weapon:2 can have a pretty big impact at the end of a fight when stress has been taking and consequences used.)
It means I get real tired of people treating mechanics and narrative as two different things in FATE. They're not.
I think I've been addressing what you said. You've been arguing that an agenda is a weakness, I've been arguing that agendas are the same as ordinary compellable aspects. Which aren't weaknesses.Then we have a discord. (See what I did there?)
What I said about one opponent apples even more strongly to a group of opponents. Zone-wide evocations are great.Haha. I think my example appled some effect after all. :-P
Also, stress recovers every scene. Not every session.And that's kind of my point. If your epic fights are lasting four exchanges, you're probably throwing the wrong kind of encounters at people.
In my experience most fights, even epic ones, tend to end fairly quickly when evokers are involved because they hit hard and are fragile. Four exchanges is actually a fair while.
Yes they are. They're related, obviously, but the narrative doesn't have Fate Points in it.The mechanics are subject to the narrative, not independent and not equal. That's what I'm saying.
And in my experience, the best way to make sure that a Power is balanced is by looking at it without considering the narrative. I'm pretty confident in this because I've designed a lot of Powers and watched other people design a lot of Powers. People who use narrative concepts to balance things tend to write bad Powers.But most of them are. +2 to Lore when navigating the Nevernever IS a narrative balance. If it were just +2 for one refresh it would be too powerful, so its balanced by a narrative restriction. Being able to borrow debt without the narrative restriction of an agenda is too powerful. But really, the point here was the point above... if you make a Power that's based on another Power but it doesn't have the same narrative basis for one of its abilities it a bad power. In Sponsored Magic that debt is power borrowed from your sponsor. Where is the narrative basis for debt for "self-sponsored" magic? That's the most critical part of the question and the thing that no one seems to have answered.
And that's kind of my point. If your epic fights are lasting four exchanges, you're probably throwing the wrong kind of encounters at people.It continuously sounds like you came in here to tell people that they are playing the game wrong.
I'm just saying that it's a houserule.A lot of DFRPG is houserules. The RAW itself suggests to come up with stunts and powers etc. yourself, and I wouldn't really call that houserules.
It continuously sounds like you came in here to tell people that they are playing the game wrong.
I feel like we should maybe cut off part of this thread and put it in a new discussion thread about self sponsored magic, since the original question seems to have drowned a few posts ago.I'd be okay with that. I tried to bring that up a few posts ago, but I honestly think OP has stopped watching anyway.
A lot of DFRPG is houserules. The RAW itself suggests to come up with stunts and powers etc. yourself, and I wouldn't really call that houserules.
Haha. I think my example appled some effect after all. :-P
And that's kind of my point. If your epic fights are lasting four exchanges, you're probably throwing the wrong kind of encounters at people.
The mechanics are subject to the narrative, not independent and not equal. That's what I'm saying.
But most of them are. +2 to Lore when navigating the Nevernever IS a narrative balance.
Where is the narrative basis for debt for "self-sponsored" magic? That's the most critical part of the question and the thing that no one seems to have answered.
The only reasoning I've seen for it is something to the effect of "drawing on inner reserves" but if that's the case that should just be a houserule that all players can do, although that's really what Fate Points are for in the first place. Fate Points are a resource management system. If there's no downside or restriction on taking on debt then you've basically wrecked the core mechanic of FATE.
...its impossible to have a disagreement without sounding like you're saying the other person is doing it wrong. Because that's exactly what you're saying.
The basis varies depends on the magic. Mab's Unseelie Magic might be drawing on her realm or her mother or her own mantle or just nebulous greatness. The Merlin's ward magic might be getting it as a free extra for extreme expertise or burning a bit of his human soul or incurring some karmic debt.Except that debt DOES mean something in character with Sponsored Magic (as I've pointed out before, just like Fate Points do mean something in character) and "self-sponsored" magic just borrowed the template seemingly without considering the narrative consequences. But I've pretty much gone over all of this before and really what it comes down to is that you think that agenda-related and other debt are the same thing, while I profusely disagree for reasons I've already stated.
Debt doesn't have to mean anything in-character because FP don't exist in-character. So the justification can be more or less anything.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean, exactly.Not really sure what got lost in translation. The FATE system is built on a narrative structure. When you read a book (Hero's Journey aside) typically the character is good at certain things (Skills) and most of the time she's going to succeed at what she's good at and fail at what she's not. Of course, its a game so we don't want the results to always be predetermined so we use the FUDGE dice, which only average 0. Typically when the hero DOES succeed or fail where she shouldn't its because of something in her background (Aspects). The hero usually gets beat up at the beginning (Compels) and fantastically outdoes all previous conceptions at the end (Invokes).
You just made a better Refinement. A better /dual/ refinement. At half the cost. I'm going to be kind and say that's quite unbalanced.Not better. Different. I assume you're referring to Just That Good, so quick explanation of why that IS balanced.
Not better. Different. I assume you're referring to Just That Good, so quick explanation of why that IS balanced.
Refinement provides either two specializations or two Focus slots per refresh. There is no restriction on where these are put. I've basically split that bonus across Evocation and Thaumaturgy (its actually weaker than Refinement if you don't have both, but that's on you). Both focus items and specializations have downsides of course, and here the downside is you can ONLY split it, you can only choose one bonus type, and you can only do it once. Ever.
Pretty much none of the other abilities are things Refinement even comes close to allowing you to do.
EDIT: Ah. I see your misunderstanding. I was trying to be clear with that but it's Control OR Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency, not Control, Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency.
Except that debt DOES mean something in character with Sponsored Magic...
One of my problems then, is that "self-sponsored" magic borrowed this concept but didn't have a reason for it across the board other than that it was part of the Sponsored Magic template.
Not really sure what got lost in translation.
Excessive Specialization [-1]
For some reason, you've abandoned the traditional path of magical study. Maybe you never had a mentor. Maybe you're on the run from the White Council. Or maybe you're Mommy just always told you you were a unique little snowflake and you're going to be and to heck with the consequences.
Musts: You must have an Aspect which alludes to this ability (typically your High Concept)
Each time you take this, you must choose a field of magical study (eg: Ectomancy, Demonology). If you have taken both Ritual and Channeling in the same field you get a one-time refund of 1 refresh when you take this power. You may take this ability multiple times. It may not be applied to a category of magic (Warding, Summoning and Binding, Crafting).
* Just That Good. You gain +1 to Control OR Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency when dealing with magic in this field. This ability may only be taken once per field, not once per bonus type. This bonus stacks with itself and specializations. Control applies to both Thaumaturgy and Evocation magics.
* Combat Casting. You may cast relevant Thaumaturgic rituals at combat speed provided you draw all the necessary power in one exchange. You may take this ability once per field.
* True Ritual. You may use one of your rote slots for a relevant Thaumaturgic ritual. The Thaumaturgic rote automatically succeeds after a number of exchanges (min. 1) equal to the complexity of the spell minus your Control. All parameters (except target, unless the target is yourself) and including any bonuses from foci and the source of any extra shifts for complexity must be set when this power is taken. This ability may be taken once, plus one for any slots Rote Caster gives you. This ability may be combined with Combat Casting provided the rote takes one exchange.
* Rote Caster. You have gain a number of rote spell slots equal to your Lore that must be used for Rotes in the field of study.
* Easy Peasy. You may cast a single relevant rote for one less stress (min. 0) than it would normally take. You may take this ability once per rote.
* Of Course I Know That. You automatically succeed at any knowledge roll relevant to casting of spells in this field (eg: internal anatomy for Biomancy) provided the difficulty is less than your Lore.
I realize those abilities are kind of all over the map (and the refresh cost may be off because of it), but this basically reflects most of the things you'd want a specialist to be able to do generically without taking on any extra baggage.
There are some serious issues with this but I think there's a good idea in there. Do you want a critique, or is this just for the sake of argument?