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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: potestas on January 16, 2014, 07:58:18 PM
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if I don't have to do anything special and my lore is high enough how long will a ritual take. Will it be as fast as evocation or is there still time involved. I found something called superior world walking so I am assuming that someone somewhere wanted a more instant way of travel.
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A minute? Translation: several exchanges.
1 or 2 exchanges to set up the circle (depending on what it entails);
1 exchange to call up the power;
1 exchange/control roll.
So, you could do it in combat but it's be extremely inconvenient and probably very easy to interrupt.
That's how I'd do it.
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A minute? Translation: several exchanges.
1 or 2 exchanges to set up the circle (depending on what it entails);
1 exchange to call up the power;
1 exchange/control roll.
So, you could do it in combat but it's be extremely inconvenient and probably very easy to interrupt.
That's how I'd do it.
so in a non combat situation your watching some guy drawing a circle saying something and a minute later a tear in the fabric of space :)
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yup.
Although, for Thaumaturgy, you always need a link. I'm not sure how that works for world-walking. I forget how Harry did it in the books. I remember that it didn't take him very long, but I know he had to go find specific locations, which he could sense. I don't remember if he used anything or had anything as a link to the location or the portal itself. Maybe the places themselves were the links.
In any case, if I remember correctly, I think opening a portal is a difficulty 4 or 5. It's in the Thaum section under worldwalking...I think.
Edit: YS pg 283-284
Typically, the strength of the barrier between
the Nevernever and our world is Superb (or
better)
So, if you want to do it automatically, your Lore needs to be Superb unless the barrier is softer in a particular area. and further down pg. 283 there's rules for holding the Way open for longer.
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The really time consuming part of thaumaturgy is the preparation phase, not the casting phase. Taran has it spot on.
The transitions to the nevernever as they happen in the novels aren't necessarily rituals in a mechanical sense. For the most part, I would assume any wizard will have the expertise to open the way. Unless they are pressed for time, of course, thats when I would make them roll.
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However, there are examples in the book that take only a standart action, especially if they don't need preparation.
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Really? What page?
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P. 264 in the determining complexity chapter. If I understood correctly, spells that otherwise would require a simple action, manuevers and contests that do not require preparation (do not exceed Lore) need a standart action.
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Thaumaturgy always requires preparation. That's what makes it thaumaturgy. Granted, that preparation can be minimal, but it is there. It requires you to get a symbolic link, and you need some sort of construct to build the spell on. The last one is usually a circle, since that's the easiest and probably most adaptable form for most spells.
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But in the how you do it section, it says you can skip preparation if the complexity does not surpass your Lore.
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That's the part of the preparation where you gather up aspects to get enough shifts to cover the complexity of the spell.
It's a bit like a gps navigation system. If you want to find your way around in your state, that's not going to be a problem, that's what it's there for by default. If you want to go further, you are going to need to get the right maps, load them onto the device, etc. In either case though, you are going to have to program the address, or you won't get anywhere.
The same, I think, applies to thaumaturgic rituals. Easy rituals don't require much prep, but you still need to spend some time on it. You need the symbolic link (the address), and you have to draw up a circle to be able to power the spell (programming the address into eh device).
Thaumaturgy is not really meant to be cast in a conflict situation, unless all the preparation steps have been done (like the ward example). If you are able to get the symbolic link from a target (like pulling out some hair), that conflict should probably be over, and you can cast your spell in private. Or you can use the link directly in an evocation directed at the target, that would probably be the better option in that moment.
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O.k here's the difference between needing preparation and not:
pg. 164
if the
spell’s complexity is equal to or less than your
Lore (after it’s adjusted by focus items—see
page 278). This indicates that your wizard’s
personal collection of knowledge and accoutrements
suffices for the spell.
pg. 165 Preparation
Preparation time is normally
divided into three broad categories: researching
the ritual, obtaining stronger symbolic links,
or acquiring additional power sources
So if the complexity is lower than your lore, you have the knowledge (no need to research); the symbolic links(no need to acquire one); and enough personal power to fuel the spell.
Casting:
Once preparation is complete, the wizard can
actually cast the spell. The circle or casting space
is set up, the links and other ritual elements are
arranged like they’re supposed to be, and the
wizard’s other power sources are available. All
that’s left is for the wizard to complete the ritual
steps, contribute his own power to the spell, and
send the energies on their way.
Actually casting the spell requires setting up the space. I'd say that takes an action, at least. Even Harry's tracking spell took a bit of time.
I think the part about simple actions is more about target difficulty than how long an action takes. It's just saying "to do a simple action like an assessment, the complexity will be equal to the target difficulty.
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But it says skip. It says there is no part of preparation.
And a different question, if you have the target in front of you, do you still need a link? Because the book assumes you do a ritual from far away. But if he is in front of you, you could treat the spell as a gun: point and pull the trigger (wait, the visual contact is the link, isn't it?)
I think Harry has used quick and dirty ritual spells in the books, I don't have handy examples though. Obviously they would be watered down versions of what they would be originaly.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Taran. I think though that the preparation of space is a bit subjective. When is a circle needed and when do you already have the needed space from the enviroment? Oh, and just drawing a cicle with chalk (or even better having a printed one with you) could count as a supplemental action?
EDIT2: Wait, wait. If I understood correctly it says that setting the space is part of the preparation. Therefore it's not needed.
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If there was literally no preparation, thaumaturgy spells like that could be cast like evocations, except that they don't cost mental stress to cast. Which would vastly devalue evocation in the process. And sponsored magic as well, since evothaum is a big part of what they bring to the table. If evothaum is possible regardless, those points might be better spend elsewhere. Those 2 points of refresh buys you a +4 thaum complexity focus, which will allow you to tackle quite a lot of ad hoc rituals.
Mind you, I don't have a problem with combat thaumaturgy, but I think that the "time vs. safety" thing should come into play and be tangible. You can spend fate points to declare a circle pattern in the floor of the mega mall to use as a circle, and do your spell quicker, but I think you'd at least have to acknowledge the difference between evocation and thaumaturgy.
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Being able to quickly cast simple thaumaturgy won't devalue Evocation at all. The strength of Thaumaturgy is the fact that you CAN do the preparation to hit really high complexity levels that Evocation can't touch. Unless you are using Sponsored Magic, you will need to have a high lore, Conviction AND Discipline to make a really impressive Thaumaturgic effect quickly, where Evocation just needs Conviction and Discipline.
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The book never really specifies how long thaumaturgy takes. So it's mostly up to the GM.
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I've have assumed that if its thaumaturgy and you have all the stuff, that it will at least take one action to set. Its like when Harry pulls out his chalk from his pocket. He has the skill and stuff on him so the ritual wont take much time but he still draws a small circle seals it with blood and uses the links. at most a minute but still time. Plus thaumaturgy last longer, at its weakest till the sun sets or you cross a decent amount of water right??
I am big on travel, I really wouldn't want my wizards just to get in a car and drive, so world walking is going to be the way, plus its cooler. I am assuming the location they pick is the link. Can a wizard punch a hole into the nevernever from anywhere if he has the strength?
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I think you have to feed it an extra shift or two to last the whole day.
While on subject, why is Conviction important for thaumaturgy? Just for the extra mild consequence?
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I think you have to feed it an extra shift or two to last the whole day.
While on subject, why is Conviction important for thaumaturgy? Just for the extra mild consequence?
You still have to feed power into the spell. The higher your Conviction and Discipline the faster you can channel power into it, it helps get those high complexity spell done quickly.
So while it may not be a big deal with Harry's simple tracking spell, if you were trying to get a complexity 6 or higher spell done and time was a factor, those stats would come into play.
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I've have assumed that if its thaumaturgy and you have all the stuff, that it will at least take one action to set. Its like when Harry pulls out his chalk from his pocket. He has the skill and stuff on him so the ritual wont take much time but he still draws a small circle seals it with blood and uses the links. at most a minute but still time.
An important thing when it comes to thaumaturgy is the 'story of the spell'. Maybe you have everything, but you still need to organize it.
Here's a ritual that I did in a pbp to change the colour of a stolen car. A maneuver with the a complexity under the characters Lore. (it's near the bottom of the post)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,39379.msg1964338.html#msg1964338
Plus thaumaturgy last longer, at its weakest till the sun sets or you cross a decent amount of water right??
I think it often depends on narrative. Things like wards last until morning, while things like temporary powers and scene aspects might only last a scene. One part of YS says it'll last until sunrise but in another part it says the default duration is 1 scene or "15 minutes" on the time chart.
I'd have to look for the quotes.
I am big on travel, I really wouldn't want my wizards just to get in a car and drive, so world walking is going to be the way, plus its cooler. I am assuming the location they pick is the link. Can a wizard punch a hole into the nevernever from anywhere if he has the strength?
From my reading is most everywhere is 5. While other places further or closer to the nevernever will have stronger or weaker barriers.
BUT here's the thing with World walking: The reason they're called the Ways is because certain locations have resonance to others. So even if you rip a hole open in a random location, there's no telling where in the nevernever you're going to end up. Once in the nevernever, you could walk 10 feet, open another portal and be in a random place on the other side of the world.
That's why Harry used specific places to cross over.
He goes to alley 'x', opens a gate, walked half a kilometer down a path in the nevernever, opens up another gate at 'the weird tree', ends up in Tokyo, walks another block to the back alley of some restaurant, where he goes back into the nevernever, walk 5 paces and opens a gate to England.(his target destination)
You can't open a random gate into the nevernever, then move 10 feet and open another one and be exactly where you want to be. You have to know where you're going. That's why Lore is the default 'how do I get from point A to point B.
While on subject, why is Conviction important for thaumaturgy? Just for the extra mild consequence?
Yeah, I don't think conviction is important for thaumaturgy. Complexity is Lore. Calling up power is narrative(you can just choose how much power to call up - there is no hard limit), controlling the power is discipline.
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you can just choose how much power to call up
Not true. Conviction limits how much power you can call up every exchange. If the power in one exchange is equal or below your conviction, you don't take casting stress, if it is above your conviction, you take casting stress equal to the number of shifts the power is above your conviction. (YS 271 second paragraph on the page)
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oops! Thanks for the correction.
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DO the foci bypass this? As in I have a focus item of +2 complexity and my Lore and Conviction are +5. I cast a Ritual of +7. Do I still take backlash?
And what about specialisations bonuses from Refinement?
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An important thing when it comes to thaumaturgy is the 'story of the spell'. Maybe you have everything, but you still need to organize it.
Here's a ritual that I did in a pbp to change the colour of a stolen car. A maneuver with the a complexity under the characters Lore. (it's near the bottom of the post)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,39379.msg1964338.html#msg1964338
I think it often depends on narrative. Things like wards last until morning, while things like temporary powers and scene aspects might only last a scene. One part of YS says it'll last until sunrise but in another part it says the default duration is 1 scene or "15 minutes" on the time chart.
I'd have to look for the quotes.
From my reading is most everywhere is 5. While other places further or closer to the nevernever will have stronger or weaker barriers.
BUT here's the thing with World walking: The reason they're called the Ways is because certain locations have resonance to others. So even if you rip a hole open in a random location, there's no telling where in the nevernever you're going to end up. Once in the nevernever, you could walk 10 feet, open another portal and be in a random place on the other side of the world.
That's why Harry used specific places to cross over.
He goes to alley 'x', opens a gate, walked half a kilometer down a path in the nevernever, opens up another gate at 'the weird tree', ends up in Tokyo, walks another block to the back alley of some restaurant, where he goes back into the nevernever, walk 5 paces and opens a gate to England.(his target destination)
You can't open a random gate into the nevernever, then move 10 feet and open another one and be exactly where you want to be. You have to know where you're going. That's why Lore is the default 'how do I get from point A to point B.
Yeah, I don't think conviction is important for thaumaturgy. Complexity is Lore. Calling up power is narrative(you can just choose how much power to call up - there is no hard limit), controlling the power is discipline.
so a successful lore roll would be enough to set him on the right path assuming the GM doesn't have anything planned for him while bouncing around. If we use it simply for travel to speed up the story we really wouldn't have to do much except use it as a narrative for how we can move around so quickly, The occasional surprise to keep its use "special" but for the purpose of the story if the wizard is in LA and needs to be in NEW York he could punch a hole in reality slip into the nevernever and be there in 20 minutes with the GMs ok or a successful lore role that set him on the right path.
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Yeah, exactly.
While On the other hand, ripping a hole open in a random place to use it as a quick getaway during combat or chase might land him in hot water...
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DO the foci bypass this? As in I have a focus item of +2 complexity and my Lore and Conviction are +5. I cast a Ritual of +7. Do I still take backlash?
And what about specialisations bonuses from Refinement?
Bonuses from foci and specialization stack, so if one of them can apply, both can.
Thaumaturgy usually has 2 types of bonuses: complexity and control. Complexity raises the "no preparation" level of lore, control raises your discipline for the purpose of gathering power. It would only be logical that there is a third type, power, that allows you to draw in more power per exchange. On the other hand, you are usually sacrificing time to cast a ritual, anyway, so those points are probably better spend elsewhere.
Backlash is something different from casting stress. In your example of a Conviction of 5, you would take 0 casting stress for gathering 5 shifts of power per exchange. You would take 1 shift of casting stress for gathering 6 shifts, 2 for 7 shifts, and so forth.
Lets say you have a Discipline of 4 and you draw 6 shifts of power. You take 1 shift of casting stress because of your Conviction. Now you roll a 0 on the discipline check, which means you are 2 shifts below your target of 6. Since this is thaumaturgy, you take the full 6 shifts you wanted to draw in as backlash, if you want to continue the spell. If this was the 3rd exchange, and you already drew up say 10 shifts in the previous 2 exchanges combined, you would now have to take a 16 shift backlash hit, in order to continue the spell.
Thaumaturgy backlash is a bitch.
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Or use a stunt, or tag an aspect, etc.
In order not to complicate things with a third variable, it would seem logical to me that complexity bonus from Refinement can serve as an extension of Conviction, but that is probably up the GM if he accepts it.
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Thaumaturgy usually has 2 types of bonuses: complexity and control. Complexity raises the "no preparation" level of lore, control raises your discipline for the purpose of gathering power. It would only be logical that there is a third type, power, that allows you to draw in more power per exchange. On the other hand, you are usually sacrificing time to cast a ritual, anyway, so those points are probably better spend elsewhere.
That depends. If you have a sponsored magic and you are casting some "evocation speed" thaumaturgy, wouldn't a hypothetical power focus come into play? In this case, complexity isn't a factor, only how much power you can call up and control in one round.