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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: potestas on December 22, 2013, 03:44:08 AM

Title: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: potestas on December 22, 2013, 03:44:08 AM
I've been trying to wrap my mind around the benefits of sponsored magic if you already have evocation and thaumaturgy. How does it work beyond theme. I don't see why anyone would spend the points better to grab inhuman speed or toughness. Can someone explain how it can help out.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: blackstaff67 on December 22, 2013, 03:59:27 AM
Sponsored Magic can give your magic an 'oomph' that it may otherwise be lacking vs certain creatures (Summer magic very good vs Winter Fae and vice versa), allow to cast thaumaturgy at evocation speed, increase your magic for certain themes (Hellfire: Good at burning anything), give you an edge against the Forces of Darkness (ch. for trademark or copyright) with Soulfire, or (arguably) even allow you to break the Law of Magic without incurring Lawbreaker Stunt.  It'll do this...for a price.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: potestas on December 22, 2013, 07:56:26 PM
how do you apply it in game?
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Taran on December 22, 2013, 08:25:32 PM
I'm playing a Soul-fire wielding character now.

- I needed to block some enemies from getting through a door-way while I did a short ritual.  Blocks only last 1 exchange.  Instead, I did a 5 shift ward with the speed of evocation.

- Holy damage/down-grading the toughness of any creature

In general:

- Thematic casting lets you do things that you might not normally be able to do.  Summer magic causing plants to grow...

- Instead of taking a consequence for casting, you can take a point of sponsored debt.  Or increase your control rolls by taking debt instead of invoking an aspect.

- Hellfire gives you a +1 to power.  So more powerful spells as a base. (you still need to control it).
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Magicpockets on December 26, 2013, 04:07:04 AM
Regarding the canon Sponsored Magics:
-Summer Magic: Reduce Winter toughness, bypass Immunity to mortal magic, Biomancy at Evocation speed
-Winter Magic: Reduce Summer toughness, bypass Immunity to mortal magic, Entropomancy at Evocation speed
-Hellfire: +1 Stress bonus for everything that deals stress, bypass Immunity to mortal magic
-Kemmlerian Necromancy: various Rituals at Evocation speed, free specializations that stack on top of the pyramid, use specialization bonuses for Evocation with proper justification
-Soulfire: Reduce all toughness, satisfy holy catch, bypass Immunity to mortal magic, all Thaumaturgy at Evocation speed with proper narrative justification.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Braincandy on December 26, 2013, 04:25:39 AM
Regarding the canon Sponsored Magics:
-Summer Magic: Reduce Winter toughness, bypass Immunity to mortal magic, Biomancy at Evocation speed
-Winter Magic: Reduce Summer toughness, bypass Immunity to mortal magic, Entropomancy at Evocation speed
-Hellfire: +1 Stress bonus for everything that deals stress, bypass Immunity to mortal magic
-Kemmlerian Necromancy: various Rituals at Evocation speed, free specializations that stack on top of the pyramid, use specialization bonuses for Evocation with proper justification
-Soulfire: Reduce all toughness, satisfy holy catch, bypass Immunity to mortal magic, all Thaumaturgy at Evocation speed with proper narrative justification.

That part there I did not know. The description is the book is incredible vague. I took Soulfire strictly for the ability to pierce supernatural toughness and for flavor. That makes it much more awesome.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: potestas on December 26, 2013, 02:44:49 PM
That part there I did not know. The description is the book is incredible vague. I took Soulfire strictly for the ability to pierce supernatural toughness and for flavor. That makes it much more awesome.

that's why I asked the descriptions are vague, that's one of the problems with the system, games require a bit more rules to make them doable in game. So what I find in games like this is a lot of house rules to clarify things and prevent Omni characters. I almost think some modern version of D&D d20 would almost be better setting for Dresden world.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: HumAnnoyd on December 26, 2013, 05:37:44 PM
Quote
that's why I asked the descriptions are vague, that's one of the problems with the system, games require a bit more rules to make them doable in game. So what I find in games like this is a lot of house rules to clarify things and prevent Omni characters. I almost think some modern version of D&D d20 would almost be better setting for Dresden world.

I couldn't disagree more.  I have been running/playing DFRPG for the last 3+ years and I am totally in love with it.  I can't imagine trying to use any d20 class and level game to play it.  Well, maybe M&M but that is a very different kind of d20 and I don't think it would capture the world of Dresden as well as FATE does.  But different strokes and all of that. 
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 27, 2013, 02:42:46 AM
Ugh, no. D&D D20 is a deeply flawed system.

There's vagueness in the rulebook, but none of it stems from not having enough rules. Most of it comes from overly complex writing.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Braincandy on December 27, 2013, 04:39:52 AM
that's why I asked the descriptions are vague, that's one of the problems with the system, games require a bit more rules to make them doable in game. So what I find in games like this is a lot of house rules to clarify things and prevent Omni characters. I almost think some modern version of D&D d20 would almost be better setting for Dresden world.

Umm...no. At no point was I suggesting that either. I've played a LOT of D20 and I do like it, but I like this system precisely because it is so different.  D20 tried to be a light combat sim while this is more of a storytelling aid.

Soulfire is the only really vague thing and everyone knows why that is. It is still, even now, a largely undefined commodity in the books and therefore nearly impossible to stat in the game. I suspect that we will get a bit more definition to Soulfire in the new book, running around with the Denarians makes it likely that Harry's Soulfire will be a topic of conversation.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Leeder on December 27, 2013, 07:11:14 AM
that's one of the problems with the system, games require a bit more rules to make them doable in game.
Different groups play different games. One group needs strict rules to justify every bit of ununderstanding in the corebook, and another group does not care for the rules, entrusting mechanics to their GM. I have played a D20 Modern urban fantasy game, CWoD crossover chronicle and now a DFRPG campaign, and every game from the list provides entirely different experience and feelings.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Taran on December 27, 2013, 01:09:16 PM
I don't think soulfire is the only one that can do evo-thaum.

All sponsored magic can do that as long as it fits the theme.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Cadd on December 27, 2013, 01:29:16 PM
All sponsored magic can do one area of thaumaturgy with evocations speed; soulfire can do any thaumaturgy at evocation speed.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Quantus on December 27, 2013, 01:53:27 PM
With commensurate cost?
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: blackstaff67 on December 27, 2013, 03:12:42 PM
Umm...no. At no point was I suggesting that either. I've played a LOT of D20 and I do like it, but I like this system precisely because it is so different.  D20 tried to be a light combat sim while this is more of a storytelling aid.

Soulfire is the only really vague thing and everyone knows why that is. It is still, even now, a largely undefined commodity in the books and therefore nearly impossible to stat in the game. I suspect that we will get a bit more definition to Soulfire in the new book, running around with the Denarians makes it likely that Harry's Soulfire will be a topic of conversation.
Denarians and Harry running around in Hell.  I think I'll put money on that.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Cadd on December 27, 2013, 04:04:02 PM
With commensurate cost?

No costs stated, unless you mean the fact that Soulfire is a -5 instead of a -4 Refresh Sponsored Magic.
The usual narrative justifications apply, of course, it's just not limited to a single area of Thaumaturgy.

Personally, I'm not entirely comfortable with how Sponsored Magic works by RAW vs how they are depicted in the novels, but I can't put my finger on it and really need to think it through what it is exactly I don't like.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Taran on December 27, 2013, 04:40:11 PM
I usually use themes of protection, healing, freedom and purifying for soulfire.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Cadd on December 27, 2013, 07:10:09 PM
Add any kind of creating (based on what Harry says in Changes when creating his decoys) and it seems fair, which really is a lot broader than other sponsored magic gives.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Quantus on December 27, 2013, 08:47:46 PM
So Soulfire doesnt have any added cost over say Hellfire to represent the Soul Fuel it consumes?  I havent looked closely at the sponsored stuff in a very long time.  I would have assumed it would have some sort of energy/health/life drain effect in addition to whatever was normal for sponsored magics
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Cadd on December 27, 2013, 09:59:39 PM
Nope, I'd probably cover that with compels. It's not like there's any clear other "agenda" that comes with Soulfire, so the sponsor debt might as well be described along those lines.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: potestas on December 28, 2013, 03:33:13 AM
All sponsored magic can do one area of thaumaturgy with evocations speed; soulfire can do any thaumaturgy at evocation speed.

I just don't see where in the rules it says that??
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Magicpockets on December 28, 2013, 07:00:20 AM
So Soulfire doesnt have any added cost over say Hellfire to represent the Soul Fuel it consumes?  I havent looked closely at the sponsored stuff in a very long time.  I would have assumed it would have some sort of energy/health/life drain effect in addition to whatever was normal for sponsored magics

Soulfire was written before the novels revealed further details about it. As such, it is outdated.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Braincandy on December 28, 2013, 11:17:04 AM
Soulfire was written before the novels revealed further details about it. As such, it is outdated.

I didn't realize how old the RPG book was until I just went and double checked it. It was written right after Small Favor, but the only thing that they really discussed in the book was the cost to the soul of using it so I am still surprised that that part isn't in the RPG.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Cadd on December 28, 2013, 03:14:18 PM
I just don't see where in the rules it says that??

A combination of these:
Quote from: YS292, on Soulfire
and in thaumaturgic application…well,
we don’t know really, so for our current purposes
consider it to provide the full range of thaumaturgy
spells (those which are agenda-compatible,
at any rate).
and
Quote from: YS288, on Sponsored Magic in general
Sometimes the power
source is instead more potent (or at least faster)
when directed against certain types of problems,
such as Summer’s ability to do more potent
healing effects (the sponsor takes care of all that
pesky biological know-how) and the ability to
do certain things with the effects of thaumaturgy,
but at the speed of evocation.

The latter quote I take to mean that what Thaumaturgy a Sponsored Magic allows to improve it can also perform as EvoThaum (Given that for instance Seelie and Unseelie Magic doesn't even talk about Thaumaturgy other than what areas it allows to perform as EvoThaum).
This combined with the first quote at least gives me the idea that by RAW Soulfire allows any Thaumaturgy to be attempted with Evocation's speed and methods.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Taran on December 28, 2013, 07:30:18 PM
No matter what type of evo-thaum you are doing, it has to be agenda-compatible regardless of the sponsor.

I can see situations where all types of sponsored magic could do wards(for example) at the speed of evocation.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: vultur on December 29, 2013, 12:00:22 AM
Soulfire writeup doesn't mention "with the methods and speed of evocation" at all, though. It just allows all thaumaturgy to be done with the Sponsored Magic. Which... makes it really not worth -3 for somebody who's already got Evo and Thaum.

I think the using up soul thing is a combination of Compels on Sponsor Debt and taking consequences to power a big spell with it. I don't think it really NEEDS any special mechanics... especially since Harry does cast soulfire spells without noticing anything, so it shouldn't be some extra penalty every time you cast a spell with soulfire.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: vultur on December 29, 2013, 06:27:32 AM
Potential soulfire rewrite to take into account what we've learned since:

SOULFIRE [-4]
Description: You have access to the fires of creation, the same power used by angels.
Sponsor: Heaven, usually via one of the Archangels
Agenda: Exact details are unclear, but seems to be related to creation, the promotion of mortal free will, and perhaps opposing dark and evil forces. May also be connected to faith.
Evocation: Soulfire evocations tend to produce intense, blue-white light. If used as an element, it acts as fire, with a special focus on fire's purifying aspects.
Thaumaturgy: Soulfire thaumaturgy can produce effects related to creation – conjuration, illusions, wards. It can also banish hostile or dark magic.
Evothaum: Soulfire can produce creation-related effects (conjuration, illusions, wards) with the speed of evocation.
Extra Benefits: Soulfire is especially potent when used to create. Conjurations and illusions created with soulfire (including evothaum) gain a +1 complexity and control bonus.


I think that covers everything we've seen Harry use it for, with the possible exception of (CD spoiler)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Braincandy on December 29, 2013, 08:35:59 AM
Soulfire writeup doesn't mention "with the methods and speed of evocation" at all, though. It just allows all thaumaturgy to be done with the Sponsored Magic. Which... makes it really not worth -3 for somebody who's already got Evo and Thaum.

I think the using up soul thing is a combination of Compels on Sponsor Debt and taking consequences to power a big spell with it. I don't think it really NEEDS any special mechanics... especially since Harry does cast soulfire spells without noticing anything, so it shouldn't be some extra penalty every time you cast a spell with soulfire.

He sure as hell noticed something the first time he used soulfire, his hand went numb for days. I think it is possible that since he did not know he had soulfire, that first time he did the magical equivalent of "emptying the clip" so to speak. He used far more than was needed for the effect, hence the lasting harm from one spell.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Taran on December 29, 2013, 01:29:51 PM
He sure as hell noticed something the first time he used soulfire, his hand went numb for days. I think it is possible that since he did not know he had soulfire, that first time he did the magical equivalent of "emptying the clip" so to speak. He used far more than was needed for the effect, hence the lasting harm from one spell.

That can be modeled by taking consequences from backlash.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Cadd on December 29, 2013, 02:28:27 PM
Potential soulfire rewrite to take into account what we've learned since:

SOULFIRE [-4]
Description: You have access to the fires of creation, the same power used by angels.
Sponsor: Heaven, usually via one of the Archangels
Agenda: Exact details are unclear, but seems to be related to creation, the promotion of mortal free will, and perhaps opposing dark and evil forces. May also be connected to faith.
Evocation: Soulfire evocations tend to produce intense, blue-white light. If used as an element, it acts as fire, with a special focus on fire's purifying aspects.
Thaumaturgy: Soulfire thaumaturgy can produce effects related to creation – conjuration, illusions, wards. It can also banish hostile or dark magic.
Evothaum: Soulfire can produce creation-related effects (conjuration, illusions, wards) with the speed of evocation.
Extra Benefits: Soulfire is especially potent when used to create. Conjurations and illusions created with soulfire (including evothaum) gain a +1 complexity and control bonus.

If Soulfire becomes relevant in my game (it might), and I haven't sat down and done a bigger rework of Sponsored Magic as a whole, I think I'm gonna use that rewrite right there (with the possible addition of satisfying at least some "Holy" catches). It feels a lot closer to what we've seen in the books after Small Favor.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: vultur on December 29, 2013, 06:14:29 PM
If Soulfire becomes relevant in my game (it might), and I haven't sat down and done a bigger rework of Sponsored Magic as a whole, I think I'm gonna use that rewrite right there (with the possible addition of satisfying at least some "Holy" catches). It feels a lot closer to what we've seen in the books after Small Favor.

Thanks!

And, yeah, it probably should satisfy "holy" Catches. But I'm not sure that needs to be a separate "power" of the Sponsored Magic, just as fire Evocation satisfies fire Catches without a special cost.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Hick Jr on December 29, 2013, 09:58:07 PM
I actually love that rewrite, vultur. But what about Soulfire's "degrade all Toughness one level" effect?
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: blackstaff67 on December 30, 2013, 12:55:56 PM
I actually love that rewrite, vultur. But what about Soulfire's "degrade all Toughness one level" effect?
Harry's had at least one fight with critters that though not vulnerable to "Holy" catches were still affected by Soulfire and had Toughness degraded, so I'd keep that.  Nothing at all to do with my own PC possessing it, really.  That said, for -5 Refresh, it ought to do that.

While we're on the subject, if Soulfire degrades Toughness (reducing the Armor value of the target) does it also ignore the extra boxes of physical stress capacity?
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Taran on December 30, 2013, 12:58:35 PM
yup.  You're considered to have the toughness power 1 level lower, so you'd drop the two last boxes.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Blk4ce on December 30, 2013, 01:46:41 PM
To slightly derail the subject, a character whose sponsor is an ancient god of the outer gates, what powers would he have? I was thinking something like an Outsider Knight.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Taran on December 30, 2013, 02:10:08 PM
Hick Jr has made piles of sponsored magics.  There's an Outsider one he made...I'll try to find it for you.

Here it is:

Sponsored Magic Master List (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,31204.0.html)

Edit:  Turns out it was Vultur who did an Outsider version:

Outsider Magic
Description: Drawing upon the power of the Outside (or a powerful Outsider patron), you're able to cast spells that destroy, distort, ruin, or harm aspects of reality (time, space, energy or matter) and induce fear, despair, and horror.
Cost: 4 refresh, 3 if you have Evocation or Thaumaturgy, 2 if you have both. You also need to either be an Outsider, or have an Outsider patron.
Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits.
Evocation - Outsider magic may be used as an element for evocation; when used this way, it produces effects similar to the entropy aspect of water evocation, and can also produce veils (as per spirit evocation). Outsider evocation effects are always obviously and profoundly weird, warping and twisting aspects of reality.
Thaumaturgy - Outsider magic can produce the effects of entropomancy, as well as psychomancy and transportation/worldwalking effects appropriate to the themes of this magic (psychomancy cannot produce beneficial or calming effects, transportation creates teleport effects, etc). It also may produce limited chronomantic effects.
Evothaum - Outsider magic can produce Outsider-appropriate psychomancy effects with evocation's methods and speed.
Other Benefits - Outsider magic provides a +1 power bonus on evocations (not evothaum) which directly cause destruction or harm.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: blackstaff67 on December 30, 2013, 02:21:31 PM
That almost begs the question whether or not such a Knight would have Lawbreaker (7th) stunts.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: narphoenix on December 30, 2013, 03:30:49 PM
That almost begs the question whether or not such a Knight would have Lawbreaker (7th) stunts.

It's almost immaterial. You're almost certainly not going to be a PC anyway, and the White Council (probably all of it) is going to gun for you ASAP the instant they find out. Combined with the fact that Outsiders are easy for a Wizard to detect, and...
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Blk4ce on December 30, 2013, 04:22:13 PM
That depends whether he was a wizard prior and if he took the mantle willingly.

It is my earnest belief that everything can be a PC. That said, imagine the interactions of a Warden with an Outsider Knight: they would be too busy killing off each other to care about the campaign :P .

As I read in the thread the extra benefit would be more appropriate to spec it as hellfire. And why only psychomancy gets Evothaum? Is there a rule that we can't put more than one Evothaum? Seems wierd.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Quantus on December 30, 2013, 04:59:35 PM
I dont think Soulfire is or should be anything Fire-specific (name notwithstanding) in terms actual effect, though cosmetically its fine.  Harry just happens to have used it to juice his Fire evocation a lot more than he has bothered to get very creative/experimental with it.  I dont think a water or earth-magic user would have any more or less utility out of it.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Taran on December 30, 2013, 05:44:29 PM
My "water mage" has soul-fire and it seems very fitting.  So, I agree with Quantus.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: vultur on December 30, 2013, 09:08:55 PM
I actually love that rewrite, vultur. But what about Soulfire's "degrade all Toughness one level" effect?

I'm not sure what in the novels it's really based on...  Harry's used it against Denarians (vulnerable to holy already) in SmF, naagloshii (who knows...and it gets out of the soulfire-noose anyway) in TC, Red Court Vamps (vulnerable to holy already) in Changes, Outsiders (some may be vulnerable to holy per the RPG) in CD... what am I missing?

I can't remember GS very well, does he use it against something non-holy-vulnerable to massive effect there?

But yeah, we could add that, making it -5 as in the RPG book.

 
I dont think Soulfire is or should be anything Fire-specific (name notwithstanding) in terms actual effect, though cosmetically its fine.  Harry just happens to have used it to juice his Fire evocation a lot more than he has bothered to get very creative/experimental with it.  I dont think a water or earth-magic user would have any more or less utility out of it.

They wuldn't. What the fire reference in my rewrite means is that if you have Soulfire and not Evocation, it acts mechanically like Channeling (Fire) when used for evocation. This seemed appropriate to me because of the purifying connection.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Quantus on December 30, 2013, 09:27:37 PM
They wuldn't. What the fire reference in my rewrite means is that if you have Soulfire and not Evocation, it acts mechanically like Channeling (Fire) when used for evocation. This seemed appropriate to me because of the purifying connection.
Thats the bit that doesnt make any sense to me.  Any "purification" seems to be just a function of the Holy aspect.  But I dont see why a non-fire use of it would give it any of the Fire-specific benefits.  Would a Water Wizards Soulfire backed spell offer both the Fire Purification aspect and the Water's Grounding aspect?  How about the apparently non-elemental uses, like the Bigsby hand of Smash?  I wouldnt have expected that to have any "Purification" effects. 

My point is just that Soulfire is not actually in any way like Fire, specifically.  Hellfire might have been a different story, being metaphysically unstable and prone to loss of control like fire.  If you wanted Soulfire to augment that aspect of Fire, Id suggest a more general statement that Augments each elements' individual aspect. So Fire gets increased Purification, Water gets increased Magical inhibition (or perhaps immunity to such), Earth allows for larger volumes of energy to be grounded and dissipated, etc. 

But it is also worth noting that the Magically Purifying aspect of Fire is supposed to be an effect of non-magical fire, not everything Harry slings.  Otherwise it would instantly "purify" any shield somebody might like to use, and basic water manipulation would like-wise be anti-magic for all intents and purposes.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: vultur on December 30, 2013, 09:40:20 PM
Thats the bit that doesnt make any sense to me.  Any "purification" seems to be just a function of the Holy aspect.  But I dont see why a non-fire use of it would give it any of the Fire-specific benefits.

It wouldn't.

Quote
Would a Water Wizards Soulfire backed spell offer both the Fire Purification aspect and the Water's Grounding aspect?  How about the apparently non-elemental uses, like the Bigsby hand of Smash?  I wouldnt have expected that to have any "Purification" effects. 

That's a different issue, since those characters have Evocation as well. Harry's smashing hand was a Force (Spirit Evocation) spell boosted by Soulfire, not a pure Soulfire spell. Similarly for the water mage example - that would be a Water Evocation spell boosted by Soulfire (so no, it wouldn't likely be used to "purify" like a fire spell).

The fire reference explains what it does if you don't have Evocation also.

EDIT: We haven't actually seen a pure Soulfire use in the books at all. But if it's going to be a full Sponsored Magic, it has to do something if used for Evocation/Channeling by itself, and fire seemed the best choice.

YS even says
Quote
In evocation, soulfire functions most like the element of fire (though it’s possible other element equivalents may exist).

Quote
But it is also worth noting that the Magically Purifying aspect of Fire is supposed to be an effect of non-magical fire, not everything Harry slings.

It does apply to magically evoked fire also -- Harry says (in TC) that's why Wardens like to use fire.

As for why it doesn't cancel out shield spells and such - I don't think it's as simple as fire being an universal anti-magic. More that things destroyed by fire are destroyed on the magical level as well as the physical one. It doesn't mean that contact with fire turns off magic.

EDIT: And YS says "Subtlety with fire is rare, but those who can combine the two take advantage of its purifying properties."
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Magicpockets on December 31, 2013, 08:47:57 AM
That depends whether he was a wizard prior and if he took the mantle willingly.

It is my earnest belief that everything can be a PC. That said, imagine the interactions of a Warden with an Outsider Knight: they would be too busy killing off each other to care about the campaign :P .

As I read in the thread the extra benefit would be more appropriate to spec it as hellfire. And why only psychomancy gets Evothaum? Is there a rule that we can't put more than one Evothaum? Seems wierd.

Aren't the Outsider pure evil though? I mean,
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Blk4ce on December 31, 2013, 10:32:17 AM
Since we don't have enough information about the Outer Gates, I don't assume anything yet. They might as well be only a faction of Outsiders who were exiled from their dimension and now want to go into ours. An equal possibilty is that they operate like locusts, exhausting the resources of every dimension they encounter.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Taran on December 31, 2013, 01:31:10 PM
@magic:  possible spoiler content?
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Quantus on December 31, 2013, 02:34:49 PM
Aren't the Outsider pure evil though? I mean,
(click to show/hide)
.
They are asymetrical, foreign, and Organized.  Thats about all we know so far.  I think it was said that they once ruled here and want it back, but I cant recall where to know how reliable a source that was.
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Braincandy on December 31, 2013, 11:21:49 PM
Aren't the Outsider pure evil though?
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Quantus on January 02, 2014, 03:10:26 PM
(click to show/hide)
Not precisly.  The medics were Summer. 
Title: Re: how does sponsered magic work
Post by: Braincandy on January 03, 2014, 05:41:58 AM


The fire reference explains what it does if you don't have Evocation also.



The fire reference is if you use Soulfire as the element instead of another traditional one. Someone who has Evocation could do that too,  but they are more likely to use whatever element that are already skilled in rather than just raw Soulfire.