It absolutely is a law of the universe that breaking one of the Laws of Magic actually changes you. Us folks who've worked on the RPG find this to be established in the canon, in the books, and as such don't see it as particularly up for debate.So, if someone earns "Lawbreaker" from the universe, but not the censure of the WCouncil, it's only that the Council didn't notice the instance of Lawbreaking. And while the Council may come after you for something that didn't earn you a Lawbreaker stunt, that's likely just their all-too-human imperfect understanding, in that they THINK you're a Lawbreaker (in the Stunt-earning sense of the word).
So, here is the core question that I have (the foregoing Q's were ancillary); probably a 2-part question:
1: Do the WCouncil's "Laws of Magic" have a 1:1 correspondence with the universe's "Lawbreaker" Stunts, and vice versa?
You could say that the laws exist as two separate concepts with 99% overlap-the Wardens of the White Council enforce one concept (law) while reality metaphysically enforces the other (nature).
the close correspondence between WC Laws of Magic and the LawbreakerStunt-granting nature of the universe should be keeping the Council "pure."
I'll quote the book:Thanks! That quote was exactly what I was wondering about the book, and it addresses bug chunks of my puzzlement. I'll be getting the hardcovers "soon"(ish), the PDF's within a few days, but this gives me a big piece of something I needed, setting-wise. It lets me move my
... Real-world governments enforce important moral principles too, but it doesn't do much to keep them pure.But real-world gov'ts cannot soulgaze/etc, have only mundane surveillance/investigation/etc to detect their "lawbreaking." It's hard to see, when the WCouncil has those stone dogs from Ancient Mai, soulgaze, real Temple Dogs (Harry has one, and Mai recognizes Mouse as soon as Mouse makes a move so she's relatively-familiar with them) and (presumably) one or more other similar magical litmus-test / Dark-Detectors (to steal a Potterism) ... given all these (and the hardline anti-Lawbreaking stance of the Council) it's hard to see how corruption (of the Lawbreaking kind) can creep into the Council. It seems unlikely in the extreme... unless of course there's some reliable way to MASK the magical traces of Lawbreaking (presumably, some form of Lawbreaking is itself involved... likely a deal with Outsiders, given that even the Gatekeeper cannot do 100%-perfect detection there).
Um even in the books the consequences of Law Breaking have more effects than a trial and head chopping.
<snip various good examples>
As for your claim that the White Council is Justice! We know the White Council has been wrong about Harry pretty much 100% of the time so I don't know where you got that impression.Oh, I don't mean to say "the White Council is Justice!" Clearly, the WCouncil makes mistakes. They were (we presume) mistaken about Harry (of course, Harry's story isn't over yet, and he still has time to turn to the Dark Side... though we don't really expect it of someone who not only RESISTED a Denarian imprint for over a year, but ended up converting her to his side! ::) ), and Molly (though she now has a WHOLE new set of Personal Challenges, and the whole Sword of Damocles is no longer even on her shortlist of worries... but she too may yet get a whole lot darker than she is Light ... ) . Still, Harry *had* killed by use of magic, so technically he had broken WCouncil Law.
I haven't seen anything so far in the books that contradicts the hypothesis that the Laws of Magic exist because the White Council has been enforcing them in what amounts to a millennium long ritual powered by the blood sacrifice of thousands of Warlocks.Hmm.
But real-world gov'ts cannot soulgaze/etc, have only mundane surveillance/investigation/etc to detect their "lawbreaking." It's hard to see, when the WCouncil has those stone dogs from Ancient Mai, soulgaze, real Temple Dogs (Harry has one, and Mai recognizes Mouse as soon as Mouse makes a move so she's relatively-familiar with them) and (presumably) one or more other similar magical litmus-test / Dark-Detectors (to steal a Potterism) ... given all these (and the hardline anti-Lawbreaking stance of the Council) it's hard to see how corruption (of the Lawbreaking kind) can creep into the Council. It seems unlikely in the extreme... unless of course there's some reliable way to MASK the magical traces of Lawbreaking (presumably, some form of Lawbreaking is itself involved... likely a deal with Outsiders, given that even the Gatekeeper cannot do 100%-perfect detection there).
I haven't seen anything so far in the books that contradicts the hypothesis that the Laws of Magic exist because the White Council has been enforcing them in what amounts to a millennium long ritual powered by the blood sacrifice of thousands of Warlocks.
There was no overt Ritual Magic happening, or Harry would've noticed... but those Very Heavy Hitters might have been able to slip some minor continuity-of-tradition rituals past him. He was hardly at the top of his investigatorial game in that scene...
While possible, I was more referring to the program as a whole constituting a ritual working ny the Council as a gestalt entity, not each individual execution of a warlock being an intentional ritual by individual members.
Hrmmm... AFAIK, there has been no Dresdenverse material suggesting that magic can work that way ... At least, not mortals' magic. I s'pose some of the immortal beings -- who are force-of nature / force-of-magic / must-be-true-to-their-natures sorts of beings -- have shown a few hints that they can "do magic" just by doing their normal and nominally-mundane activities....
I'm pretty sure we have seen common rituals working that way,...Erm... Example(s)?
I don't think it's likely that such a powerful magical ritual could be cast by accident.If I understand GryMor correctly, the suggestion isn't "by accident," but simply as power-raising / magically-meaningful events, without the trappings/appearance of "ritual".
I haven't seen anything so far in the books that contradicts the hypothesis that the Laws of Magic exist because the White Council has been enforcing them in what amounts to a millennium long ritual powered by the blood sacrifice of thousands of Warlocks.
So, here's the part of Point#2 that I'm wrestling with: the close correspondence between WC Laws of Magic and the LawbreakerStunt-granting nature of the universe should be keeping the Council "pure." The universe itself is on their side, fer cryin out loud! How'd they get so rife with corruption??!? Presumably, it's only advanced Lawbreakers who can mask their Lawbreaking, and so the Council should be able to nip their internal problems in the bud (even if it sometimes takes a bit to track down outside problems). I'm having a hard time understanding how the WCouncil -- as portrayed in DF novels / canon -- exists as corruptly as they do, if the universe itself automatically plops a Black Hat (i.e. a Lawbreaker Stunt) onto each newly-minted badguy, as per DFRPG mechanics...
Help?
But real-world gov'ts cannot soulgaze/etc, have only mundane surveillance/investigation/etc to detect their "lawbreaking." It's hard to see, when the WCouncil has those stone dogs from Ancient Mai, soulgaze, real Temple Dogs (Harry has one, and Mai recognizes Mouse as soon as Mouse makes a move so she's relatively-familiar with them) and (presumably) one or more other similar magical litmus-test / Dark-Detectors (to steal a Potterism) ... given all these (and the hardline anti-Lawbreaking stance of the Council) it's hard to see how corruption (of the Lawbreaking kind) can creep into the Council. It seems unlikely in the extreme... unless of course there's some reliable way to MASK the magical traces of Lawbreaking (presumably, some form of Lawbreaking is itself involved... likely a deal with Outsiders, given that even the Gatekeeper cannot do 100%-perfect detection there).
Steve, the g33k
That...is a freaking awesome theory.It is, isn't it? Like I said elsewhere in-thread, I don't think it's a true theory, because I don't think it holds up to closer scrutiny. But I love it anyhow!
There's actually a WoJ that even the WC doesn't have a surefire way to detect lawbreakers. Soulgazes help, but only in cases where the black magic is so extreme you probably don't need it anyway.OK, thanks! Can you point me to that WoJ?
Actually, I think it would be extremely easy for wizards to detect black magic.Dunno... in this case, there've been hints about some Mystical Connection of Blood. Thomas is Harry's blood, they're carrying these linked pentacles, etc. Maybe she was avoiding some "taint" from killing Thomas... but hell, she's pretty F*@%'ing tainted already!!! I think it was something special about Harry vis-a-vis Thomas, not a generic killing.
Hell, in Backup, Bob says that the reason the Stygian Sister didn't just burn Thomas to cinders was because Harry would have sensed it...even though neither the Sister nor Thomas are human nor would Harry deliberately look for it in someone he would think of as a Damsel in DistressTM.
Bob specifically mentioned that it had to do with timing. Not relationships.Guess I need to go re-read my Dresden stories... <sigh> ;)
I imagine detecting black magic is a lot like, say, detecting if someone has a gun. If they're not using it, and you aren't looking for it, you're not going to see it.
If they're not using it, but you're searching them for it, you can find it if you know what you're doing.
If they are using it right now, it's big and obvious to anyone who has the senses to detect it.
And if they just used it, there will be lingering signs on them (the smell of gunpowder, etc.)
And places it's been used recently will retain evidence of it for a little while (bulletholes, casings, bodies).
And to continue the simile... one could use the magical equivalent of caseless ammo (no brass left behind), silencers & flash-suppression, firing from coat-pockets or camouflage, etc; all to reduce the magically-detectable signs of Black Magic.Indeed they can--the Denarians wiped their prints off the big spell they used to grab Marcone in Small Favor, for instance. Presumably a sunrise and running water would also do the trick.
And presumably, techniques to 'clean' a Lawbreaking site (a la mafiosa / black-ops "cleaning service") also can be used.
Indeed they can--the Denarians wiped their prints off the big spell they used to grab Marcone in Small Favor, for instance. Presumably a sunrise and running water would also do the trick.I tend to presume that the Denarians have Extraordinary Means for concealing their actions. The whole "Prince of Lies" schtick, y'know? Deceit *is* their essence; they can do things that mortal practitioners cannot -- mortal means are among their bag of tricks, but they can do far more, in this regard.
OK, thanks! Can you point me to that WoJ?
I recall the execution from the beginning of Proven Guilty, where soulgaze was mentioned as a key bit of evidence. Granted, this was an instance of "black magic is so extreme you probably don't need it anyway." But if it's not really needed... why bother? Who wants to muck around in such a black soul??? You Denarians over in the corner, don't bother answering! Later in PG, Harry 'gaze's Molly, and sees Warlock-Molly as a possible future, so the potential IS visible... I can see that it may not be "surefire" -- particularly if it's a senior wizard, who might have the discipline to hide stuff from the person 'gazing them -- but it is (at the least) "very useful."
My point on this is that the WCouncil -- and "good" wizards in general -- seem to have quite a panoply of "Dark Detectors" available to them. Soulgaze, Mai's stone guard-dogs, genuine Temple dogs... in addition to what we've seen, we should probably presume other methods, which are off-stage (either not-yet-invented by Mr. Butcher, or intentionally not used) so far. The sum of all these methods would seem to make it incredibly-unlikely for a Lawbreaker to hide for long (if they don't get Soulgazed, they get sniffed by a Stone Dog, or caught some other way) had led me to believe that there must be some way for Lawbreakers to intentionally hide their status (at least from other Wizards).
Bit late, but since I'm here I should probably address this.
While I'm still sure that there is such a WoJ, I have been unable to find it thus far, despite my best efforts. I asked Serack for help but he hasn't replied yet, so... yeah, consider this unconfirmed.