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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: dplanken on August 24, 2013, 02:07:16 PM
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Is this enchanted item too powerful or balanced? This is the first time a player took magic in my game, and with that comes enchanted items.
Handmirror that imitates Abby's power to see 1-2 seconds into the future.
Created with A Lore of 4 with a focus item of lore +1 so Lore 5 total.
What we decided it does, is grant a bonus to defense (+5, usuable once a session, not usuable for other players) when someone makes a physical attack. Right now it doesn't cost any action to use, it's a free action.
If he lowers the bonus/power of the enchanted mirror by 1 he can use it twice with a bonus of +4. That seems really powerful to me, if he lowers it to +3 he can he use it 3 times. A bonus to any physical defense of +3, 3 times a session seems imba.
What do you guys think? Is it balanced?
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I think you misunderstand enchanted items. They do not provide a bonus to defense. An item like this would replace the defense roll, like a block. So this item would never be a +5 to the defense roll, it would make the character's defense 5.
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I concur with Mr. Death. An enchanted item can be thought of as an item which stores a spell, with the effect of the spell being dictated by the desires of the player and what they can accomplish with their Lore. Now using an enchanted hand mirror to duplicate the effects of Abby's supernatural power A Few Minutes Ahead could be done but that doesn't provide her a bonus to Defense, nor does it take the place of a Defense action.
From OW99
A Few Seconds Ahead (Minor Ability) [–1]: Abby can use her Lore skill to get a reasonably accurate picture of events 1-2 seconds ahead of now (limited to what she will personally experience in those moments). She may roll her Lore skill to defend against physical or social attacks or maneuvers.
Reading from the description, the power allows her to use her Lore skill to defend against physical & social attacks, instead of the normal Athletics, Empathy, Fists, Rapport and Weapons skills.
It could work to have someone with an item which allows them to have a new Trapping for a skill, but that is more the sort of thing achieved with an Item of Power, since Stunts which cost Refresh are what provide for new Trappings, and the player is effectively trying to replicate a Supernatural Power (which again, costs Refresh).
Now if the player is just looking for something to aid or replace their character's defenses look at the examples given by Mr. Death for how it would work, or look in the novels for info on Harry's enchanted leather duster.
-Cheers
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Ah, yes I definitely misunderstood enchanted items. This makes far more sense and I won't be afraid it's overpowered at all. Thanks!
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If they want a bonus, have it create an aspect that they can tag for a +2.
The rules require at least a +3 to make an aspect, so reducing 5 shifts to 3 would give you two additional uses per session. Not bad.
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If they want a bonus, have it create an aspect that they can tag for a +2.
The rules require at least a +3 to make an aspect, so reducing 5 shifts to 3 would give you two additional uses per session. Not bad.
Though that brings up the question about whether defensive maneuver items can be used as a free action--I've always allowed it, but I'm not sure if that's supported by the RAW.
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If they want a bonus, have it create an aspect that they can tag for a +2.
The rules require at least a +3 to make an aspect, so reducing 5 shifts to 3 would give you two additional uses per session. Not bad.
Could you point me in the direction where I could find this information?
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If they want a bonus, have it create an aspect that they can tag for a +2.
The rules require at least a +3 to make an aspect, so reducing 5 shifts to 3 would give you two additional uses per session. Not bad.
From personal experience, this is overpowered as hell. Since Enchanted Items can exchange strength for uses and they recharge between sessions, it effectively means a Wizard can consistently work with at least +2 (I'm dealing with constant +4's with 8 uses per session, thanks to crafting specialisations) to every action he takes. Then there's the way Practitioners can get extra uses out of their items through spending a point of mental stress.
At this stage I think Enchanted Items need some serious rebalancing.
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Though that brings up the question about whether defensive maneuver items can be used as a free action--I've always allowed it, but I'm not sure if that's supported by the RAW.
Pretty sure it's not.
Heck, even letting people use defensive armour items as a free action requires a bit of interpretation IIRC.
Could you point me in the direction where I could find this information?
Which information?
From personal experience, this is overpowered as hell. Since Enchanted Items can exchange strength for uses and they recharge between sessions, it effectively means a Wizard can consistently work with at least +2 (I'm dealing with constant +4's with 8 uses per session, thanks to crafting specialisations) to every action he takes. Then there's the way Practitioners can get extra uses out of their items through spending a point of mental stress.
At this stage I think Enchanted Items need some serious rebalancing.
Couldn't they accomplish the exact same thing using mundane maneuvers or regular spells, if you're allowing that kind of thing?
I've seen some balance issues with high-end crafters, but I don't think I've ever seen this one before.
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Though that brings up the question about whether defensive maneuver items can be used as a free action--I've always allowed it, but I'm not sure if that's supported by the RAW.
It probably comes down to how it's worded/used. Declarations are free until fiat says otherwise so any maneuver you can declare is free game. Fate Core does a good job of reigning aspect creation in, DFRPG can be (kind of) OP unless you house rule a few things.
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It probably comes down to how it's worded/used. Declarations are free until fiat says otherwise so any maneuver you can declare is free game.
Nope. Enchanted items contain spells, spells can't do Declarations.
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Nope. Enchanted items contain spells, spells can't do Declarations.
That's one possibility. Another is simply that the character make a declaration related to items. This is why wording matters. ;)
DFRPG rewards creative players.
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From personal experience, this is overpowered as hell. Since Enchanted Items can exchange strength for uses and they recharge between sessions, it effectively means a Wizard can consistently work with at least +2 (I'm dealing with constant +4's with 8 uses per session, thanks to crafting specialisations) to every action he takes. Then there's the way Practitioners can get extra uses out of their items through spending a point of mental stress.
At this stage I think Enchanted Items need some serious rebalancing.
So that's 8 times a +4 to the roll? I'd seriously question that. If the enchanted items create aspects, and those aspects are applicable to pretty much everything, I'd veto it entirely. Make different items that have situational applications and all is good. If you can shove the game into a direction so you can use all of them, kudos to you.
Then there is another issue. Maneuver spells usually require an action to be used. I could see an item every now and again that allows you to simply use the aspect it would create, if it makes sense, but I would not let players create enchanted items that only do this. They should be the exception, not the rule.
And if you have to spend an action to create aspects, other people can use their action to remove the aspect or at least remove your tag on it. Especially if you create 2 aspects simultaneously, which means each aspect can be removed with significantly less effort than if it was only one. After that, it's not going to be nearly as powerful.
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So that's 8 times a +4 to the roll? I'd seriously question that. If the enchanted items create aspects, and those aspects are applicable to pretty much everything, I'd veto it entirely. Make different items that have situational applications and all is good. If you can shove the game into a direction so you can use all of them, kudos to you.
Then there is another issue. Maneuver spells usually require an action to be used. I could see an item every now and again that allows you to simply use the aspect it would create, if it makes sense, but I would not let players create enchanted items that only do this. They should be the exception, not the rule.
And if you have to spend an action to create aspects, other people can use their action to remove the aspect or at least remove your tag on it. Especially if you create 2 aspects simultaneously, which means each aspect can be removed with significantly less effort than if it was only one. After that, it's not going to be nearly as powerful.
Two things keep coming to mind with the discussion about using Enchanted Items to provide bonuses.
The first, (which people seem to be overlooking) is that the RAW allows an Enchanted Item to store/cast one single spell. *Yes, a Warden Sword is an Enchanted Item with two different functions but that is a special case. Depending on the GM and table choose to interpret or allow, this means the Enchanted Item can only cast one spell which either could only do the same Maneuver, or it might be allowed to perform different, similar Maneuvers. In other words the Enchanted Item couldn't be used to perform a Maneuver to knock over a case of ball bearings to create a Temporary Aspect: Unsteady Footing and then at some other point do a completely different Maneuver to create a fog cloud for a Temporary Aspect: Obscuring Mists.
The second is that Maneuvers to create Aspects are either opposed rolls (much like an attack roll) or against the environment. In a number of cases, a difficulty of Good (+3) will allow the creation of a Fragile Temporary Aspect against the environment however that isn't true in all cases. Using the example above of creating a fog cloud, in an area with plenty of water/moisture and cool air that could quite easily be only a Good (+3) environmental difficulty. However, trying to create the same sort of fog cloud at high noon in Camp Kaboom, New Mexico... That would likely a Fantastic (+6) or greater difficulty.
The variations in difficulty depending on circumstances are important because what the Enchanted Item can accomplish (shifts of difficulty) and number of uses is set at the item of item creation or the appropriate milestones.
In the example given by InFerrumVeritas, the +3 item 3x per session would allow Temporary Aspect creation via Maneuvers three times per session without causing Mental Stress, assuming the environmental or opposed difficulty was only Good (+3) or less. However, if the difficulty for any of the attempts was Great (+4) or better, the Maneuver would fail, the attempt used up, no Temporary Aspect created, and using the Enchanted Item to maneuver would require the character to use an Action.
If the players are creative, then they might come up with spells for a maneuver which is fairly broad, allowing more frequent application when creating Temporary Aspects, but in general I would consider using an Enchanted Item like this inefficient or wasteful.
-Cheers
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That's one possibility. Another is simply that the character make a declaration related to items.
Okay, but that would have nothing to do with the enchanted item rules and so it wouldn't reflect on whether or not those rules are balanced.
And FWIW, I haven't found DFRPG to reward creativity any more than average. Creativity is a huge asset in pretty much every RPG.
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Pretty sure it's not.
Heck, even letting people use defensive armour items as a free action requires a bit of interpretation IIRC.
Actually, I just checked, and it says defensive items in general can be used as a free action:
Defensive items (ones that provide armor
or a block, for example) often consume a use at
the time of defense and don’t require a separate
action to activate.
Yes, it says armor or a block as an example, but if it meant only those, I think it would have been more specific.
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Actually, I just checked, and it says defensive items in general can be used as a free action:
Yes, it says armor or a block as an example, but if it meant only those, I think it would have been more specific.
Nice catch. In that case, something that would boost your alertness to spot an ambush could be considered defensive. So an item containing a maneuver like "hyper-vigilant" would reactively give you a free tag to boost your roll. But an item to pre-emtively boost your attack roll isn't defensive at all and would cost an action.
I've always figured the item's action is based on the action it's trying to emulate.
If it's an item that replaces/enhances a reactive roll, like an awareness check or a dodge, for example, then it'd be a free action.
If it's enhancing/replacing something that normally requires an action, it costs an action. A maneuver/attack are actions and therefore require an action to activate.
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You're right. Looks like I was wrong. That's what I get for posting while away from my books, I guess.
The text looks like it's meant to allow defensive maneuver items that are activated without an action, but I think there's probably enough ambiguity to disallow them without directly contravening the RAW. And I'm inclined to do exactly that, because enchanted items are powerful enough anyway. Especially once you make powerful ones that can give you 3 tags with a single activation.
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I concur with the recommendation that maneuver based items not be included, even when used defensively, in the reflexive defense triggering. The usual "defense" aspects are often already useful for some non defense actions (though, they are also often not useful some defenses).
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You're right. Looks like I was wrong. That's what I get for posting while away from my books, I guess.
The text looks like it's meant to allow defensive maneuver items that are activated without an action, but I think there's probably enough ambiguity to disallow them without directly contravening the RAW. And I'm inclined to do exactly that, because enchanted items are powerful enough anyway. Especially once you make powerful ones that can give you 3 tags with a single activation.
Yeah, that's fair.
I concur with the recommendation that maneuver based items not be included, even when used defensively, in the reflexive defense triggering. The usual "defense" aspects are often already useful for some non defense actions (though, they are also often not useful some defenses).
Two things, though--if it's already been used for defense, it requires a fate point to use it for anything else, and an aspect can cut both ways. My one player with a defensive item like this (gives a brief burst of enhanced speed) has gotten compelled, for example, in tight corridors to run into a wall and hamper his defense on a subsequent turn.
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Two things, though--if it's already been used for defense, it requires a fate point to use it for anything else, and an aspect can cut both ways. My one player with a defensive item like this (gives a brief burst of enhanced speed) has gotten compelled, for example, in tight corridors to run into a wall and hamper his defense on a subsequent turn.
Compels are their own reward. I was more meaning that, if I have:
Enchanted Item: Acausal Shard: Burst of Speed, Disjointed Movement, An Instant Ahead (Power 9, +1 Usable by others, 3 uses per session)
That is 3 fragile aspects and associated tags, all of which are likely usable in many defenses against physical attacks, but are sometimes relevant to other actions. As fragile aspects they go away when the tag is burned (and likely within a few actions of being created even if not used), as aspects they augment actions rather than replacing them, and they are, in the end, more versatile than straight up defenses. It really doesn't need reflexive triggering for defense on top of all of that, and compares favorably with it's pure defense compatriots in many circumstances.
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GryMor has a point, but I find the roll-replacing ability of most defensive enchanted items to be equally useful as the aspect creation. If I roll abysmally and activate my defensive item, a +6 to a roll is no small thing, but when I just rolled -3, it's not a huge help. I would much rather have a +9 as my defense roll or Armor:4 in that situation.
Of course, if you're playing the unstoppable "do anything" machine a dedicated crafter with nothing to lose is, it's a moot point, because he has both.
Actually, is it just me, or does the "use it again for 1 mental stress" ability of Crafting make it objectively more powerful than Evocation? You can't blow the control roll and kill yourself on activating an enchanted item. Upon further thought, someone with Thaumaturgy and nothing else but Refinements devoted towards Crafting and a thematic specialty is probably one of the deadliest characters it's possible to play.
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Of course, if you're playing the unstoppable "do anything" machine a dedicated crafter with nothing to lose is, it's a moot point, because he has both.
Actually, is it just me, or does the "use it again for 1 mental stress" ability of Crafting make it objectively more powerful than Evocation? You can't blow the control roll and kill yourself on activating an enchanted item. Upon further thought, someone with Thaumaturgy and nothing else but Refinements devoted towards Crafting and a thematic specialty is probably one of the deadliest characters it's possible to play.
Evocation blows crafting out of the water on the offensive alpha strike side of things. Assuming a skill cap of 5, the Thaumaturgy crafter has the choice of flat 10 attack, 0 WR (thaumaturgy based) or a roll+5+tags attack WR 10 (Evocation based) attacks. The Evoker can throw out roll+12+tags WR 5-10 attacks. The crafter will have an endurance advantage, in the first scene of heavy combat, but that quickly goes away (actual numbers for both sides will hopefully/likely be lower much of the time, and this doesn't deal with the MSD issues on both sides). Crafting, of course, beats the tar out of Evocation on the defensive, utility side of things, but it's REALLY hard to argue with the overwhelming firepower of Evocation.
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I'm pretty sure crafted offensive items have a Weapon rating.
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I'm pretty sure crafted offensive items have a Weapon rating.
Yes, but you can't fire them off of a 15 score. And then Evocation has comparative Weapon ratings, to boot.
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GryMor has a point, but I find the roll-replacing ability of most defensive enchanted items to be equally useful as the aspect creation. If I roll abysmally and activate my defensive item, a +6 to a roll is no small thing, but when I just rolled -3, it's not a huge help. I would much rather have a +9 as my defense roll or Armor:4 in that situation.
You can spend tags on rerolls, too. So if your base defence skill is 6, then a triple-tag provides (on average) the same defensive bonus as a 9-shift block when you roll -3 and a better one when you roll -1 or better.
Plus it lets you save tags for later, if you don't need them all. And it has applications beyond simple defence. And you can boost your defence further with FP and more tags when using it.
So the maneuver item is, when given to a combat character, generally better than the block item. The defence roll it provides only becomes worse on average when the character using it has a skill of 2 or less, and even then it has significant advantages over the block item.
And of course, even if it was weaker, letting it exist would make crafters stronger.
Actually, is it just me, or does the "use it again for 1 mental stress" ability of Crafting make it objectively more powerful than Evocation?
No. As GryMor said, crafters must choose between accuracy and damage. Plus crafters have to choose their effects in advance, and they're really gear-dependent.
Worth mentioning that evokers can't blow control rolls on their main spells either, what with Rotes and all.
Upon further thought, someone with Thaumaturgy and nothing else but Refinements devoted towards Crafting and a thematic specialty is probably one of the deadliest characters it's possible to play.
Yeah, it's one of them.
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I'm pretty sure crafted offensive items have a Weapon rating.
Items emulate a spell. If it emulates an evocation attack, then it has a WR but you need to use your own skills to actually land the hit. If it emulates a thaumaturgical attack, then, for all intents and purposes, it has no WR and is just an attack at the power level of the spell. That said, the result of the thaumaturgical attack has a lot of options that aren't available for an evocation attack.