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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Blitz on June 26, 2006, 12:57:21 AM
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One of the things I've noticed as a beginning writer is the temptation of fanfiction--writing stories in a previously created universe. It seems to be pretty popular among the teen crowd, and especially in the sci-fi/fantasy genre. I guess it's hard not to want to extend a favorite author's work, or alter it to what you think is the better story.
My question: Is fanfiction helpful to aspiring writers, or does it hurt? I've heard people vehemently opposed to the very idea, and those who gush over their latest masterpieces. What do you think? I suppose my opinion is that originality is always better, but fanfiction will help you in the way that any writing helps you: practice, practice, practice.
(And I know we're supposed to avoid actual fanfiction within earshot of Jim on the forums, but I figured a discussion about its uses couldn't hurt.)
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I know a lot of people who have written fanfic and gone on to do their own original works. I mean think about how many different authors write X-men and Star Trek novels and get them published. Isn't that a form of fanfiction as well?
I figure as long as a person is writing and improving its not a bad thing at all. I know that some authors are bothered by it, but in my mind imitation is the greatest form of flattery.. and to be so inspired by characters that have been created to continue their stories is a great compliment to the author that dreamed them up. If they are so vivid that they so capture the imagination, then how can that be a bad thing?
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I think fanfiction is the writing equivilant to one band covering another band's song. You borrow some of their world, just to play in it a bit more after the story's finished, keep the story alive, or to learn from it, or as a tribute to the original.
I think fanfiction is a good way to get that practice, practice, practice in, your million crappy words or whatever a writer is supposed to put out before they have something good, but I also lean towards creativity in your own worlds being "better". But that's because of the genre I write in...I'm doing my darndest to do SFF novels, and that's my personal ideal. In that realm, fanfiction is largely worthless to me as a writer because I'll never get to publish it. Better to put time into my original stuff. However, if I step out of the realm of SFF novels, to, say, comics script writing, or tv script writing, or even movie script writing...those are all basically like professional fanfiction. You write stories...in someone else's world. As a collab effort. It's not a bad thing, it's just a different realm than original novel fiction writing. It's all writing, but it's different mediums of writing.
I do understand why some authors get upset at it. There's the legal stuff, and also, if SFF novel writers wanted to do collab...they'd go out and do collaberative works. Some writers write alone because they're protective of their hard-won ideas and efforts, it's very painful to let go of their babies, so it's understandable that they get upset if their world is played in. Visual artists similarly sometimes get upset when someone crops and changes the color of their work, for an icon or something...it changes the meaning of what they made originally.
But I also understand why the fans create fanfiction. And I do read it sometimes, because I too want to see a little more of this or that world, even if it's just a reflection.
I don't think fanfiction is bad or good, it just is. Humans like to imitate others. I think authors that accept fanfiction is inevitable in this era of the internet will have an easier time of it. And fans are generally respectful of an author if he or she puts down "ground rules" or provides a sanctioned outlet for fan's creative energy, a la the MUSH and MOO weyrs (or whatever they're called) surrounding Anne McCaffrey's Pern series.
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I am not a published author, but it seems to me that if you are writing fan fiction, your concentration is on someone elses creativity, not your own. It seems to me it would be better to spend your time improving your craft by developing something creative that is your own, not a shadow of something that belongs to someone else.
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" I mean think about how many different authors write X-men and Star Trek novels and get them published. Isn't that a form of fanfiction as well?"
That's being contracted by the owner of the rights to write something ineir universe. It's sort of the difference between being invited in by the owner of a house, or just wandering in and making yourself at home while they're out.
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While I'm not a published author, the thought of someone playing in my world that I created... taking characters that I crafted... it makes my blood boil.
(I don't like it when bands cover music, either :p )
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Personally, with few exceptions, I hate fan-fic. (Some, I must admit, however, is very good--(V. Secret Diaries, for ex.)
Let me ammend that--I do not like fan fic. Comedic undertakings, however, are another story. (see V. Secret Diaries, above)
That being said, a useful tool in learning your own writing style would be to write similarly to another author, without stealing characters, settings, ideas, etc. (IE, write a story in the style of King, Butcher, Doyle, etc.)
But fanfic? yuck.
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(I don't like it when bands cover music, either :p )
Ah, but there's a marked difference between a fanfic author and a band that plays covers:
The band pays licensing fees to have the right to play the music.
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(I don't like it when bands cover music, either :p )
Ah, but there's a marked difference between a fanfic author and a band that plays covers:
The band pays licensing fees to have the right to play the music.
That's a recorded cover distributed for profit... sort of the equivalent of Star Wars and other licensed fan-fic.
I'm talking about when you go to a concert, and someone says that they're gonna do a song from the 70s, only they've modernized it ;)
I guess my stance on fan-fic comes from this: All authors steal from other authors. It's the nature of the beast, in a way, to see something and go, ooo, I like that. I'm gonna make it better. You then take it, change it, give the characters different names, and set the idea in a different place. Why play in someone else's sandbox when you can build your own?
*shrugs* JMO.
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I've written some X-Men fanfic, usually places where I felt the "soap opera" nature missed a couple of scenes.
And, as a writer, it's a shortcut. I can write a character's name, and many of the character's traits are already established, just there. I don't need to spend any time SHOWING that Cyclops is a stiff control-freak; I don't need to TELL the reader that. I can just make him walk in to the scene when I need an authority figure to frown a lot. There can be more to it than that, but IMNSHO, a lot of fanfic writers use that crutch to help work out their own plotting, pacing, and other craft issues without having to work on characterization at the same time.
And there's a built in audience. It's terrifying to write something, and ask someone else to read it and hope that they like it. If you write a fanfic, you're guaranteed readers.
-FredG
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Fanfiction is something you should write, you should cherish, then keep to yourself that you ever wrote it and likely burn it, just to make sure. Sometimes having a platform to start from is a great spring board into writing. But never let fanfics see the light of day. Please. Won't somebody think of the children?
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Fanfiction is something you should write, you should cherish, then keep to yourself that you ever wrote it and likely burn it, just to make sure. Sometimes having a platform to start from is a great spring board into writing. But never let fanfics see the light of day. Please. Won't somebody think of the children?
hah, yes, that was my impression of it.
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We're discussing two different things here, I see. One I can comment on, while the other I can't, really.
I'm not an author, can't write to save my soul. So I can't really say whether writing in another's world would be helpful in terms of getting better at, well... what? Writing? I can't imagine it wouldn't. If your goal was to get better at world-building, then obviously you wouldn't get much practice if you used someone else's base. But if you were just practicing writing, I don't know why it would be any different - in fact, I imagine it could be harder in some ways, having to adapt your own writing style such that pre-existing characters spoke and acted in ways that wouldn't break existing characterization.
As a voracious reader, though, I can say this - most fanfic sucks a lot, to the extent that I really don't bother with it, as it's mostly a waste of time. But that's not the fault of fanfic itself, it's merely the fact that the genre attracts far too many people who write about as well as I do, but have much bigger egos ;). I love to see different takes on the same stories, or the same characters, or the same worlds, but only when they're worth bothering with. If I were a famous writer, I'd be flattered by any and all attempts at fanfic in my world - even though I'd be even more saddened at how much most of it would suck a lot.
Incidentally, I absolutely love covers; in fact, I go out of my way to collect them. Have gigs and gigs of it. I've also deleted gigs and gigs, because again, I only keep ones that are actually worth keeping. It seems that fewer people with little talent consider themselves to have talent in music than it writing, though, so it's at least worth bothering. Or at least, less of the music that sucks ends up being discussed and passed around the internet.
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As a voracious reader, though, I can say this - most fanfic sucks a lot, to the extent that I really don't bother with it, as it's mostly a waste of time. But that's not the fault of fanfic itself, it's merely the fact that the genre attracts far too many people who write about as well as I do, but have much bigger egos ;).
I have had a distressing number of contacts with fanfic writers who were so proud of what they'd done they were sure that once the author read their fanfic that it would become accepted as a part of the world and would be published. Worse, some fanfic crazies even thought the authors would hand creative control of the world to these fanfic maniacs.
If that sounds unbelieveable, I should mention that I once dated a girl who honestly believed she was a fairy princess, daughter of Oberon and Titania, with her very own angelic guardian who she spoke to frequently. She was one of the fanfic people.
Lesson to be learned: don't date the people I date. Bad idea.
-S
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I have had a distressing number of contacts with fanfic writers who were so proud of what they'd done they were sure that once the author read their fanfic that it would become accepted as a part of the world and would be published. Worse, some fanfic crazies even thought the authors would hand creative control of the world to these fanfic maniacs.
If that sounds unbelieveable, I should mention that I once dated a girl who honestly believed she was a fairy princess, daughter of Oberon and Titania, with her very own angelic guardian who she spoke to frequently. She was one of the fanfic people.
Lesson to be learned: don't date the people I date. Bad idea.
-S
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QFT.
Sounds like we may have dated the same kinds of people.
Eyaugh, glad I'm over that phase. ;)
But spot on about some of the fanfic crazies out there
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My original writing had its starts in the fan fiction I wrote when I was a teenager (13 years old to around 16). Like anyone familiar with the fan fiction world, I know there's the good, the bad, and the really, really ugly. When I wrote fan fiction, it was because I was a huge fan of whatever fandom I was writing in, and I wanted to show my appreciation of that world and the people who created it. It was never meant as anything but flattery. But I know people who are frighteningly possessive of these worlds, so much so that they become warped, thinking that they're not just good, but better than the fandom's creator(s). *shudder* It was a tool I used to learn how to plot storylines, use characters, and understand the nature of language. But it was just that: a tool, a way to practice. Eight years later, I think I'm a better writer because of the practice I got.
While fan fiction can be fun, writing your own material is so much better.
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That's being contracted by the owner of the rights to write something ineir universe. It's sort of the difference between being invited in by the owner of a house, or just wandering in and making yourself at home while they're out.
The premise is still you writing in someone else's world. Not one that you have created of your own.
Fanfiction has its purpose, it allows a fan to express their imagination... if they were to print on demand and sell their work rather than submitting it to a publishing house with the rights to that world, then yes.. that's the equivalent of stepping into someone's house and peeing on their furniture.
But to write it and share it with other people in the fandom and not for profit, that is more a developmental exercise than flagrantly stepping on an author's toes.
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But I know people who are frighteningly possessive of these worlds, so much so that they become warped, thinking that they're not just good, but better than the fandom's creator(s).
You mean like how Timothy Zahn's Star Wars novels are about a hundred times better than anything Lucas ever made? :P
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I am guilty of writing fanfiction. A lot of it. I share only a tiny fraction of it with anyone, including my friends. I don’t really write it for people to read, I write fanfiction because I like the world I'm playing in and bow to its creator, not because I think anything will ever come of it. I agree some people take their stuff waaaaay too seriously, which is probably why most people think fanfiction writers are freaks. :-\
I think that fanfiction has its place and one should NOT expect much to come of just writing fanfiction and not developing their own worlds and characters, but creating a new world and developing a cast of new characters is daunting, especially for someone who has never written for pleasure before. If you start out playing with some premade characters and an existing world, it makes figuring out how to create a little world of your own easier. It makes writing easier to get used to.
Maybe I'm inclined to let fanfiction exist because it's how I discovered writing. I know why people dislike fanfiction and don't want it written. A lot of it is really, really bad, and the author has the right to keep their ideas theirs. I totally understand that. After all, I would be livid if someone stole the two characters I'm currently trying to construct. However, if the author doesn't mind and the fanfiction author is just writing for fun and not profit, I'm not going to say they can't. I think Jim has the right attitude about it, letting it exist as long as it stays out of his sight. :)
*Opens umbrella in anticipation of tomatoes and ducks down behind it*
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I've written a few pieces of fanfic. Usually I write them because something in a story sparked a question that's never answered by the author. For example, in Laurell K. Hamilton's "Lunatic Cafe", there was a throwaway reference about Edward finding a witch to lift a curse. I wanted to know who the witch was. And, frankly, at the same time I wanted to explore a little bit about how a character could survive in that world and NOT be an uber-everything. So I wrote "Swan Song".
Then, because I liked the interplay between my OC and Edward, there was a follow-up. A third story stalled out, shortly after I realized I was writing it because people had asked me to write a story where my OC and Anita Blake met up. It wasn't the story I wanted to tell, so it died out.
I also don't consider it time wasted when I could spend it on my own stuff. For one thing, I myself do not have an actual well of creativity that can run dry. There's always something to do. Writing fanfic doesn't stop me from having ideas about my own writing. The time sink is the only thing that might apply, and it's irrelevant to me. I have no plans to publish, so it doesn't matter if it takes me two months or two years to finish a story. I love writing, I couldn't not write. I write a lot. But, although I have submitted a story or two (actually, two in the last fifteen years or so) for publishing, I don't really want to. I'm a writer, not an author. I write for the sheer love of it. Having to submit it to editing and deadlines and all the other crap that goes with being published would suck the joy out of it, for me. So I write, and fanfic in no way impinges on my ability to enjoy the hobby.
I don't read much fanfic because, as other people have said, the vast majority of it is terrible. Bad grammar, bad plotting, and don't even get me started on the horrible characterizations. "What if Jack and Daniel were blue, telepathic aliens?!" Then why use Jack and Daniel at all?
If I ever published my own work, I would let people write fanfic, assuming my lawyer or agent didn't have an aneurysm at the very notion. I dunno if she still handles it this way, but for awhile Mercedes Lackey used to permit fanfic IF the writers used an alternate timeline wherein a major character who had died in the "real" timeline managed instead to survive. Since most readers were upset he had died in the first place, that was fine. ;D I'd probably handle it in a similar fashion, if all the legal angles permitted. Make a drastic change, so that all fanfic is actually happening in an alternate universe.
I haven't yet written any Dresden Files fanfic, mostly 'cause Jim's doing a bang-up job of writing it himself. ;) If he leaves a big gaping hole in a story that bugs me no end, I suppose I'd end up scribbling twenty or so pages. But I have a feeling the Dresden Files RPG will give me all the room I need to tell whatever stories I want in that universe. Go MUSH!
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Hi all, first time post, so hopefully I won't inadvertently break any forum laws or anything.
Fanfiction is something you should write, you should cherish, then keep to yourself that you ever wrote it and likely burn it, just to make sure. Sometimes having a platform to start from is a great spring board into writing. But never let fanfics see the light of day. Please. Won't somebody think of the children?
This is pretty much where I come down on it too, ethyachk. I'm not a published author (yet, hopefully) either. What writing a fanfic did for me was to reawaken a passion for writing that I had let fall by the wayside in the rush to make a living, etc. Through writing that, I got the blood flowing to those writing muscles again, and I experienced the rush of not only starting a piece, but actually finishing it. It was a wonderful experience.
That having been said, I agree that those things don't really need to see the light of day. The fanfic served its purpose, and now it can rest on its laurels and gather dust and not go out in public to embarrass me or the poor author whose yard I played in.
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I don't mean to offend anyone but in my opinion the fan fic writer is just being lazy.
I would rather read a story filled with original ideas and charactors than a person copying an already amazing author. I also bet that some authors find it annoying when their ideas get screwed up in fan fic.
These are just my opinions I'm sure fan fic writers are nice people I would just rather read original material.
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I can't speak for other fanfic authors but personally, I've found that writing fanfiction has been a real help in producing original pieces. The original stuff I started writing at sixteen was absolutely terrible, but when I hit the Internet and discovered online fandoms (mostly anime), writing fanfic helped tremendously. I've found what works for me in terms of plotting strategies, obtained plenty of practice at pacing dialogue etc. Now that I'm working on a couple of novels of my own, I write very little fanfic, but I'm happy to have had the experience.
Whether fanfic is worth writing or not depends very much on what you want to get out of it. If all you want to do is throw a few characters together in a bedroom scene that would make Anita Blake blush, then so be it. Some people like the characters/plot/setting of a story and want to make them work for them. In my case, it's often that I feel there's a scene missing somewhere in the original media, and I feel the urge to fill in the blanks. (Between chapters 5 and 6 of 'Gabriel Knight 2: The Beast Within' springs to mind.) I've written for some pretty obscure fandoms but there's usually at least a tiny audience out there, and I admit that yes, I do enjoy getting feedback from them. Who wouldn't? I don't feel ashamed of what I've written, and if I do it's usually for technical reasons rather than remorse for the content.
Wow, that was a long first post for me...
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I love fanfiction. I've written everything from Aliens, to Dukes of Hazzard, to a crossover between the two of them. I haven't written any Dresden Files fanfiction and I don't really intend to.
I'm not doing any harm. I'm not making money off of it. And I certainly don't mean to insult the origanal creators of said fiction.
It has helped massively with my writing in general. I haven't yet written anything with original characters but my storylines have the tendency to be original enough.
So yes, I wouldn't write the way I do without it.
~She-Wolf
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I can't speak for other fanfic authors but personally, I've found that writing fanfiction has been a real help in producing original pieces. The original stuff I started writing at sixteen was absolutely terrible, but when I hit the Internet and discovered online fandoms (mostly anime), writing fanfic helped tremendously. I've found what works for me in terms of plotting strategies, obtained plenty of practice at pacing dialogue etc. Now that I'm working on a couple of novels of my own, I write very little fanfic, but I'm happy to have had the experience.
Me too. Fanfiction let me learn about the pure craft of writing, like pacing, dialogue and the actual mechanics, without having to deal with worldbuilding and characterization and all that. Probably why all my critiques say my writing's great but the plot sucks. ^.^ But seriously, I think it's a great learning tool for a young writer. I wouldn't put it out in the big wide world, though, because you're not playing in your own house, and it's impolite to invite other people to mess around in someone else's.
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Guilty of being a fanfic writer. Have one Harry Potter fanfic that's over 600 pages long (rewrote the first 4 books and then made up original plotlines for the other 3).
Writing all the fanfic's that I have has really helped me out with writing my original stuff. I've gotten a great deal better since I first began writing (my very first original stuff read like crap) and it's all because of what fanfic's I've written. Still write fanfic's (mainly Buffy now with a few HP mixed in) but I'm trying to work more on my original stuff.
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This simply blows my mind. I asked a similar question on a writers loop...(wherein everyone on the list writes and most strive for publication or have already attained publication)
The question was, how do you feel about fan fiction based on your own personal worlds and characters. Love it, hate it, don’t care.
The response is almost exactly half and half. Half the writers love it, half hate it. It seems so odd that there isn’t a more decided view one way or the other.
One thing is certain, Fan Fiction elicits strong feelings (good and bad). Few people are indifferent about it.
With what I’ve read on this thread and what I learned from my unscientific poll, it seems to me, that the decision should be left to the original author. If he/she loves fan fiction then his/her fans should go to town and have a blast. But if the original author has made it clear they’d rather not have people playing with his/her toys then the fans should have enough respect to abide by it.
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My question: Is fanfiction helpful to aspiring writers, or does it hurt? I've heard people vehemently opposed to the very idea, and those who gush over their latest masterpieces. What do you think? I suppose my opinion is that originality is always better, but fanfiction will help you in the way that any writing helps you: practice, practice, practice.
(And I know we're supposed to avoid actual fanfiction within earshot of Jim on the forums, but I figured a discussion about its uses couldn't hurt.)
If people were trying to plagerize and steal characters etc, I could see folks being down on the fan-fiction.
Most of the stuff I've read is just writers wanting to express themselves with characters they love. I've done much the same, though I'm such a nervy creature I keep all mine hidden at home where only my Hubby may ever see it. ;)
Fan-fiction for me is just exercise, just like doing some yoga or working with weights. When it works, you end up with a little magic. You feel kinda good, the way a nice round with weights or a good game of hoops makes you feel. I dont think writing fan-fiction cheats, or is in anyway a kind of laziness. It can be very challenging, and rewarding.
Like Jim I keep the focus on any writing on the craft of it more than just kicking up my heels. That's what a work out does, isn't it?
Kilsokwa
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Hmm.....
Speaking as a fanfic writer, I see fanfiction as a good thing. Yes, there are problems -- there are several anime series that have been overwritten for (If I see another InYasha fic, I will scream! :P) -- and most fanfiction is. . . .poor.
As for me, I've written in a couple of anime series -- Bubblegum Crisis (OVA series, and not that Thing called BGC 2040), and Salior Moon (Yes, but I try to avoid the real silliness) I flirted with Ranma 1/2 (But don't have the time for it right now.) I have written Self-Insert stories (Author as character), and have story plots for others.
Right now, I'm involved with writing stories based in the Battletech Universe. Now, because of the way the universe is set up, there is no need to use established characters. Writring in this universe allows the author to develop his own characters, create situations, all without invaladating anything that has happened in the time line. It's a rich universe, with many factions, many levels of story, and many places to set said story. I love it.
Fanfiction allows me to release some creative energy in a structured format, with no need to sit down and work out all the small details a completely original story requires. Once I felt comfortable in my writing as it pertained to fanfiction, it allowed me to take that next step and start writing original stories. To me, Fanfiction is a tool, a stepping stone to my own original stories.
Craig
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Right now, I'm involved with writing stories based in the Battletech Universe. Now, because of the way the universe is set up, there is no need to use established characters. Writring in this universe allows the author to develop his own characters, create situations, all without invaladating anything that has happened in the time line. It's a rich universe, with many factions, many levels of story, and many places to set said story. I love it.
Ooo, Battletech? Do you have stuff posted anywhere? I'd love to read it.
And I definetly agree. With CBT you can run with anything you want. I was trying my hand at writing a story in that universe myself, involving the Kell Hounds and Clan Wolf-in-Exile, but I don't know if I'll ever complete that story.
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For many years wanting to be a published author and now managing to hold the position, I have a great hate for fanfic. I've never read any, so it's not necessarily for the potential of a story and characters being butchered or misrepresented, but for the pure and simple fact that you can't really do anything with it. Which, I suppose, is half the fun of it. You just throw it out there for fellow fans to read and enjoy, or keep it just to yourself. I think it's more the idea of me doing fanfic myself, the fact that I could throw so much into something and not really be able to do anything with it.
On the other hand, perhaps in a touch of hypocrisy of sorts, I'd feel flattered beyond words if someone wrote fanfic on my book and characters. Well, I'd probably say that until I saw some horrible misrepresentation of all the characters and some critical point to the story being ignored or some such sort. I suppose the hypocrisy continues as a good friend of mine (storyteller) and I plot writing up stories on our game based off the Dresden universe. Other than that, though, I've never touched fanfic.
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On the other hand, perhaps in a touch of hypocrisy of sorts, I'd feel flattered beyond words if someone wrote fanfic on my book and characters. Well, I'd probably say that until I saw some horrible misrepresentation of all the characters and some critical point to the story being ignored or some such sort. I suppose the hypocrisy continues as a good friend of mine (storyteller) and I plot writing up stories on our game based off the Dresden universe. Other than that, though, I've never touched fanfic.
Personally, I try to stay with the series I'm writing in -- the characters, places, situations, and expand on them. A prime example is BubbleGum Crisis (Four babes in battlearmor fighting robots that look like the Termanator's big blue brother in a Tokyo ruled by a megacorps on the 2030's). It's cyperpunk, with influences from Blade Runner, Streets of Fire, and others. When I write those Fanfics, I stay in that world, adding things where needed, but relying on the establish story background first and formost.
Others have taken those characters and taken them either into the past, or the future. They have killed them, reserected them, turned them into cyborgs, or based them in a fantasy setting., If they want to do that, that's their problem. But for me, their world and the problems in that world are the backdrop for these stories of mine. To alter things so much as to make it unrecognizable doesn't feel right to me.
To me, Fanfiction is a sharpner, allowing me to hone my craft and get a feel for the writing process.
Craig
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I voted 'Useless'. I hate it. Hate it with a passion. I have a friend who likes to sift through fanfic for the very, very few gems--they're far more stubborn than I am, and willing to /look/. Most of it--yuck. I get a synopsis now and then, and the majority is the most puerile tripe I have ever heard of. I won't even get into the self-insertion fantasies or the sexual fantasies people write, pairing and slashing various characters.
Yes, vociferous. I hate fanfic. :)
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I write fanfic. I have stories on several fanfic sites, and I am proud of (almost) everything I have written. I am not a teenager, far from it. What fanfic did for me was to give me a starting point. With characters already created, I was free to concentrate on my own plot and dialogue. Once I had developed in that area, I felt confident enough to put down on paper some characters of my own. Without fanfic, I doubt if I ever would have come to the place where I can call myself a writer. Now I have original stories in the works. I've submitted several to different publications and begun the watiing game to see what happens. If I were ever lucky enough to become a published author with a following and someone wrote a fanfic based on my characters, I would think of it as a compliment.
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Fanfiction is something I love to do. I write ones about Spike from Buffy The Vampire Slayer and some others. But, I have been writing short stories for years and have some cool ones. My newest one is a spy story. The three main characters are a brooding agent, with a dark past, his partner, a British cool guy, and this computer super hacker. He's Scottish and is really fun to write. Why? Because I based him on one of my favorite actors. The other two are based on the guy that played Spike, the brooding guy, and my favorite singer, that's the British one.
But, when it comes to fan fiction, I don't like the over sexual ones. Give me the fun ones, with a little sex, and I'm happy! :D
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I've enjoyed some fanfiction, but on the whole they usually can't keep my interest. The only time I think fanfiction is really helping an aspiring author is when they base the story on entirely new and different characters within that same world, learning to flesh out someone of their own design. Sadly, most of the fanfiction I've come across is mostly 'plot for the sake of pairings', or simply rehashing certain moments in the book/show/etc to change a relationship.
I like a wee bit of romance but I prefer not to read fanfiction that's only driven by a romantic pairing, where if you took one of them out of the story the entire plot would fall apart. Unless I'm curled up in a blanket intending to read a romance novel, I'm just not interested in that.
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I too have mixed feelings about fanfiction. Actually it is how I got into writing in the first place. Way back at the beginning of high school (long before people "published" their fanfics on the Internet) I started writing Star Trek stories. I only actually shared them with an English teacher who was very supportive when it came to developing my writing abilities. I never shared them with anyone else, and in truth, the stories are long gone now.
In that respect, fanfic can be a good thing. I learned a lot writing those fanfics. Let's face it, character creation is a very specific skill. Fanfics can't help so much with that, but they can help with pace, plotting, etc...they can be very good learning tools.
Now, I do have a couple of stories about people who take fanfics too far. First of all, I've tried reading fanfics on the Internet, but was just never able to get into them. Too many people who do "publish" their works seem to think it gives them some credibility. Here's a couple of examples (one annoying, one a little bit funny...plus a third).
First of all, Battlestar Galactica. I came late to the party when it came to learning about the "reimagined" series...I learned of it shortly before it came out. Once I did, I started digging around and stumbled across the Sci Fi discussion board on the subject. Ron Moore posted there.
Along with Mr. Moore (and a large group of enthusiastic participants) there were a number of hard-core fans of the original series who had strong views. Some were very intelligent, but most either didn't understand how television works or were the sort of people we're talking about (fanfic writers). For example, Ron Moore pitched the idea for the new series and it was approved. After this, people started demanding "Why aren't you listening to us and continuing the original series?" These are the people who don't understand how television works...put bluntly, Mr. Moore was being paid to do the new series...once the contracts were signed, that was what they were making! Still, these people weren't the big problem.
I'll just mention one of the people in question. This is a guy who regularly mixed it up with Mr. Moore. Every time anything was posted about the new show, the guy would retaliate with several posts...trying to fight with Ron Moore. One day he personified the particular breed of fanfic writer we're talking about. Mr. Moore had answered a question the guy had posted (looking for a fight)...he answered the question quite intelligently. This is how the guy responded. "You are a hack. You know absolutely nothing about writing. I've written over 30 Battlestar Galactica fanfics so I know what I'm talking about!" He made it quite clear that his fanfics meant he was a "real" writer, while Ron Moore (who had more credits than I'm going to list) was a hack...I think that speaks for itself.
The two others were friends in high school. First was someone who wrote a Star Trek script where he cast himself as captain. He was convinced he'd found a way to beat the Kobyashi Maru (I won't get into details) and wrote a script to show it. We were going to a convention a week later, and he was going to take the script along and show it to everyone he could. I pointed out why this story just wouldn't work. At first he reacted with anger, but after a couple of days my words struck home, and we saved countless "victims" at the convention.
The other friend wrote a Next Generation fanfic shortly after the series aired. He wrote it for English class, and got a good mark for it. He felt this nineteen page story was good enough that he should send it to Paramount...he was convinced that it would be the best episode ever made. Now this was one of those "wishful thinking" sort of scripts. He called it something like "The Romulan Plot" (it involved Romulans and time travel). However, all of this stuff, all of the action, was really just window dressing for the true purpose of the story. If I were to give it a title, it would have been called "Get Wesley Crusher Off the Bridge".
So to sum up, you can learn from fanfics, but (as others have said) please don't dump them on the world!
Oh, for some other interesting fanfic-related stories, see if you can find a copy of Bjo Trimble's "On the Good Ship Enterprise" at your local library. She worked in the fan mail department on the original Star Trek, and has some interesting stories about people who used to send in their writings.
Keith
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I have tried some fanfiction, and I find it very constricting, due to the fact you must follow someone else's laws and rules, as it is their world. Some worlds are easier to work in than others, but I find it both hard to do and a bit of a waste of time.
To me, certain fanfiction writing is very unorigional and overdone, such as all those people who think that 'fox demons, half-demons, vampire-werewolf-alien-chicken-spawn, and cow-demons' are origional.
It all depends on the topic, characters used, and how it follows the world they are writing in. If I read a LOTR fan-fic, then I would not want to see a story about Aragorn when he should be in the middle of a battle, as written by Tolkien. However, stories about minor characters and their take on certain things in the books, or about a new character who could have been there (That means no mini-Harry Dresdens running around the Death Star) are usually alright.
Velkyn
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Fanfics, if done right can be quite good. Too bad they usually suck.
Most of them suffer from at least one if not all of these major flaws.
Self insertion - This is the worse of the worse. this is usually accompanied by describing how much cooler they are than the other characters, and they almost always play a more important role than anyone else.
Character removal - Take a character you dont like, and simply remove him. Often times either killing them off early, or not even bothering to mention them.
Personality changes - OOC (out of character)comments and actions. some are acceptable, but others are just wrong. whats worse is when theres a hastily scribble back story to explain why someone does something OOC. Thats almost admitting that they know what they are doing is wrong.
Background drops - What would Luke Skywalker do when stuck in a Lord of the Rings world? DOnt know, i dont care. Too bad that person did.
Romance stories - I really dont need/want the details of what Captain Picard Dr. Crusher and Lt. Troy were doing on their holodeck vacation to Tahiti.
I have tried some fanfiction, and I find it very constricting, due to the fact you must follow someone else's laws and rules, as it is their world.
the greatest problem comes down to some people believeing that if its too hard to work within the rules, ignore the rules.
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Fanfics, if done right can be quite good. Too bad they usually suck.
They can, but some (Very few) rise above the material.
Most of them suffer from at least one if not all of these major flaws.
Self insertion - This is the worse of the worse. this is usually accompanied by describing how much cooler they are than the other characters, and they almost always play a more important role than anyone else.
I agree. I have written a couple of self insert stories, based on the Bubblegum Crisis Anime series, and It's hard not to make the avatar supierior. However, I find it an interesting challenge to write about a character based on me, who isn't supierior.
Character removal - Take a character you dont like, and simply remove him. Often times either killing them off early, or not even bothering to mention them.
Personality changes - OOC (out of character)comments and actions. some are acceptable, but others are just wrong. whats worse is when theres a hastily scribble back story to explain why someone does something OOC. Thats almost admitting that they know what they are doing is wrong.
Background drops - What would Luke Skywalker do when stuck in a Lord of the Rings world? DOnt know, i dont care. Too bad that person did.
Again, it depends on how the event is handled. The problem is that with the Internet, all the people who think they can write have a platform to display their efforts. A lot of it is a wate of time and effort, theough a few rise above the morass and display some true talent.
Romance stories - I really dont need/want the details of what Captain Picard Dr. Crusher and Lt. Troy were doing on their holodeck vacation to Tahiti.
In anime fanfiction, Lemons (As detailed 'romance' stories are called) are looked at with a jaundice eye, as you get the impression from most that the author is lacking experence in the subject, or learned from repeated watching of 'Debbie Does Dallas'..... ;D
I have tried some fanfiction, and I find it very constricting, due to the fact you must follow someone else's laws and rules, as it is their world.
the greatest problem comes down to some people believeing that if its too hard to work within the rules, ignore the rules.
As a fanfiction writer, that is the worse sin I can think of. The best fanfiction stays within the rules, but delivers something different and unique.
To me, Fanfiction is a way to hone the writing craft. It is a step toward original fiction. Fanfiction allows the author to write stories without having to work out all the little detail about the background, with is a great determent to a lot of authors. The can add or alter things to suit their story, but each universe has it's own rules, and those rules should be a guideline. Once you wonder too far from them, you have something that isn't fanfiction, that isn't original, but a mishmash of both.
For example, in Bubblegum Crisis OVA, a cyberpunk-like setting set in 2030 Japan, there is enough background to form a base. We have a sinister Megacorp, Genom. We have Boomers, androids that can be best described as Grown-up Termanators. We have the heroes, four women using advanced battle armor to oppose Genom. We have all the basis, but there is still plenty of room to expand and add to the universe without invalidating anything from the show. When I write stories based on this series, I am well aware of the rules and how far I can go before I start writing outside of those rules. But I still have plenty of leeway, and as long as I remember what the heart and soul of the universe is about, then I go with it.
Craig
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I began writing after spending afternoons at college reading Buffy the Vampire Slayer fanfiction.
I'd read so much of it, that my imagination reached critical mass and I had to write things down or my brain would explode.
:o
A few years later I'm finally beginning to write my own stuff (sort of) based on vague concepts rather than pre-constructed worlds.
Fanfiction is the McDonalds of writing: it's already to go, there isn't much you can do with it except eat it.
You can maybe add a little of your originality by using your fries to eat your McFlurry (I know someone who does that) but for the most part it's just all done for you.
Writing at author level is killing your own cow, harvesting your own wheat, milling your own flour and baking you own bread, growing your own vegetables, making you own sauce and creating your own packaging (Though you can get an artist in to do that for you if you want to).
Once you're at the gym and eating healthily after realising how bad McFanfiction is for you, you don't tell people how you were raised on it.
I was a smart McFanfictioner as a kid - I wrote stuff for the fun of it - then never showed a soul.
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I have tried some fanfiction, and I find it very constricting, due to the fact you must follow someone else's laws and rules, as it is their world.
the greatest problem comes down to some people believeing that if its too hard to work within the rules, ignore the rules.
Then what's the point of writing in their world? If... I mean... when I get my story published, (gotta stay positive) I do not want to see someone doing a fanfiction of my world and not following my rules. That just is not right. The world I write in is my world. When I create it, I become the god of it. (I do not mean that in a dictator-like way, or as anything against anyone's God/gods. I'm merely making a point.) If I say that dwarves are confined to their tunnels for all eternity, I don't want to see someone saying "well, meh dwarve is special!1!eleven. hE can do nething." Uh-uh. As Trboturtle said, that is the gravest sin a fanfiction writer can commit.
When someone write fanfiction and follows the rules, delivers something unique, and does not mess with anything the author has stated in his/her books, then it has potential to be something good and fun to read.
Also, I believe it is more fun to make your own world and to mold it to your/the story's needs than to work in someone else's world.
Velkyn
(as I re-read this, I realize I sound rather pompus, and I would like to agree with Darrington on the point that it would be incredibly flattering for anyone to do a fanfic on my stories. However, it would be even better to see it written as the world allows, with no random stuff thrown in for the sake of 'being cool'.)
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There are places where the lines blur interestingly, though. When does a story stop being someone's fiction and start being common property ? I don't think anyone would claim that all Arthur stuff is Thomas Mallory fanfic frex. But are Sherlock Holmes stories written these days fanfic or not ? [ OK, that in particular is a bad example, because the Conan Doyle estate have done very non-standard things to prevent Holmes becoming public domain in a situation where any other fiction in Britain of that age would ] Are stories about the Three Musketeers ? Are stories about the Phantom of the Opera ? [ The originals, in each case, rather than fanfic of specific later interpretations of them. ]
My personal take is that it should be acceptable when the author is a) dead or has b) given specific permission, as Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett have to some people wrt Good Omens, or for a shared creative universe - like most TV series, though Babylon 5 would stirke me as edgy -and not otherwise. And I would get really angry indeed were anyone to fanfic anything I wrote.
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There is a lot of terrible fan fiction out there, but there are also a large number of real gems - at least in my experience. Granted, most of my experience with fanfiction has been with anime (mostly Ranma) and Harry Potter fanfiction. Perhaps one out of 30-40 stories was worth reading, but you can usually tell after a page or two whether or not it is worth continuing reading. Also, it helps to frequent websites that require one or more betas (from the site's pool of such) before any chapter is posted. The overall quality - in writing and sometimes even in plot - is usually better at such sites. Finding such sites, however, is not always easy, as they are often highly focused in the types of stories they accept (certain pairings, certain styles, etc).
So, I suppose I have mixed views on fanfiction. Some, I really wish I had not read even a single page, while others I consider myself lucky indeed to have stumbled upon. The author's skill and whether betas are used can really make a difference, I think.
While I myself am not an author, I can see how fanfiction could be used as a means of practicing one's writing, finding one's style, etc. In fact, one of the best fanfic authors I have ever read is also an aspiring author, so I suppose writing fanfiction has likely aided him, at least, in finding and improving his style of writing.
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I like reading fanfiction when there's nothing else for me to read, or when I'm stuck on the computer with nothing else to do. Although some of it is incredibly disturbing and the plot isn't much more than a basis for ship (or worse), some of it is well thought out. I usually write my own stories in my own fashion, and reading someone else's work (if it is well done) gives me some inspiration.
Mary Sues in general are rather tiring and are rarely interesting, made to carry out disturbing fantasies. One of my favorite sites, Smartania (http://www.smartania.com), has something they call "Suckfic Massacre" where they rip apart awful fanfiction painfully into little pieces line by line. Quite a few of the stories are Mary Sues which makes them hilarious.
I was also a beta for a fanfiction writer at one point. It was rather painful at one point when she stopped listening to my comments.
So, I like well-written fanfictions, but the rest can just go away. Real life fanfictions, too. I just don't get those.
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I've done both fanfic and original work, and I'm an avid reader of published fiction and a very very selective reader of fanfic in a few chosen fandoms.
I agree that there is some very bad fanfic out there, as well as some absolute gems - sadly, there is a lot of muck to shovel through to find those prizes, and it is easy to see why fanfic gets a bad wrap as a whole because of it.
I can tell you that fanfic helped break me out of a very long period of writer's block; I agree that it can be very valuable exercise in the art of putting together imagination and the written word, as well as the grace to accept constructive criticism along with praise (and indifference :-\) once one drags up the confidence to show it.
When I write fanfic, I enjoy the challenge and the shortcuts that a pre-existing world entails; I find it useful to take new interactions and situations and get feedback on them from fellow fanficcers; I find it pleasant to be able to commiserate with others who like to read and write, and share a particular world we are already fond of. Writing is a lonely sort of vocation, each piece a labor of individual isolated effort -- with fanfic, well, there is the small comfort that others are right there suffering with you! ;D
As to what I'd feel if someone fanficced an original work of mine (assuming I manage to publish someday), well, I'd be flattered that something I wrote was 'alive' enough to jog someone's muse into action. :) But at the same time, I understand why anyone would cringe, given some of the results... Oh the many bottles of bleach my poor eyes have needed over the years! Often the trick is to find a decent archive with a quality control policy; it can make a potentially painful search much more pleasant!:)
Hmmm... ok, so .02c turned into $1.20... professional deformation? ;)
Sil
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Fan fic is like when you try to play some one else's song for the first time. Doesn't sound good that's why you do it in the basement away from everyone. The trouble is with everyone writing Fanfic, and posting it somewhere, it's like turning up your guitar's amp to to eleven. (You know what I mean)
Fan fic is fine as a learning tool, just don't expect me to read it, or listen to your guitar playing. :)
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the problem i have with fanfic, whenever i've been inspired to look for it, is the same problem i have with any group of highly excited people - some of them are Crazy People, a lot of them are just over excited, and maybe two of them have something interesting to contribute.
unless you can write your own stuff, i would stay out of the realms of fanfic.
that being said, go write fanfic! write away, USE those characters like puppets, and then, as someone else said, HIDE IT FOREVER.
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I used to shudder at the thought of Fanfic for a very long time. Just for kicks while I was at work the other night I went looking for some Dresden Fanfic. Man Harry Dresden vs. Harry Potter...made my eyes want to bleed. However, that isn't to say that Fanfic dosn't have it's purposes. I agree that it can be a great way for writers to get some practice. I write for a Star Trek RPG which is basically just a whole bunch of on-going fanfic. I get a lot of fun out of it because of the group of writers/role players I work with. Also we all make original characters, so we don't have a whole bunch of Kirks running around. Also, writing for that RPG has helped me get back into my own writing, by allowing me to flex my creative muscles. Writing for that RPG has been a great way for me to break through my writers block on a number of occasions. And I'll admit it that I've written a couple of little stories in the Dresdenverse just to get some practice at writing in the first person. I've never been big on that, usually can't even stand reading it, but Jim's style has really made me want to reconsider my stance on first person narratives. Fanfic helped to keep the Star Trek franchise alive after The Original Series was cancelled, and even now it's serving some of that same purpose.
The problem I see with Fanfic is that most who write it aren't looking to improve their craft. They aren't trying to get practice. In fact most use it as an excuse to take short cuts. They use familar characters so that they don't have to worry as much about character development and heavy character descriptions. Heck most fanfic writers don't even get the characterizations right. They just want to play in the sandbox. It's a chance for some wish or fantasy fullfillment (How many Buffy and Faith love stories are out on the webs right now?). Which wouldn't be such a big problem if they were keeping it to themselves. The internet has put an end to that though.
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I write fanfic because (as I've said earlier) there's some question that the actual story sparked in my head. Some loose end that wasn't neatly tied up or was just brushed off by the author will nudge at my creative side until I write a story to tie things up the way I think they should have been done.
Admittedly, I did write one and a half fics that weren't for that purpose but they were written as follow-ups to a fic that *did* serve that purpose, so I think they count. ;)
Oh, and I did write one Stargate fic that was just to be funny. Humor's always fair game, I feel.
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Way back in the olden days, before the Internets, I wrote Duran Duran "fan fic". I was 14. (where's the embarrassed emoticon when you need it?) There were about 10 of us who wrote and exchanged stories back in junior high school ('83-84). It's the sort of thing that I wouldn't discuss in therapy, frankly. Not sure why I'm sharing it now, but there it is. I moved from Duran Duran stories to what they call Real Person Stories, but eventually I figured out that was just kind of creepy and quit that, too.
So, yeah, cut to the year the X-Files came out ('93). That was when I found out that there was such a thing as fan fic and that *gasp* our group of junior high students wasn't actually doing something original. Heh. I belonged to a mailing list that had some ok fan fic, but I wasn't writing anything sharable. I had tons of ideas, but nothing I felt like putting to paper.
Then came Gladiator and Russell Crowe. Oh my dear and fluffy lord, that got me writing. I fell in with a group of women who had beta testers and cared that what they wrote made a certain sense. They had their own little universe where characters from Crowe's movies existed outside of their own worlds. Something about that caught my attention and I wrote like mad for about six months, I think, and I actually shared it with this group - the first time in over 10 years anyone else had read what I'd written. Then I just stopped writing. Stopped cold. I guess I was partially tired of explaining what I was "banging away at" to my husband and something else, but I don't know what. Maybe it was Everquest... That seems pretty likely. That group still writes and what they write is not only readable, but it's usually really good. I still read a lot of their stuff, too, and it's still better written than 99% of what's out there.
Anyway, I still occasionally get an idea for some sort of original story - I get about 8 or 9 pages into it and stop. I lean heavily towards writing romance type stuff, even though that's only about 1/3rd of what I read anymore, because I find it easy (to a point).
So I guess I'm in favor of fanfic to an extent. The crazy people, though, they bug me...
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I unabashedly write fanfic.
Yes, I do. While I tend to stay away from novels...books, I write for Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and anything non-book orientated. I had a temptation to write a Laurell K. Hamilton story...simply over disgruntlement with what she's doing currently with her series--but since refrained because explicitly whined asked for people not to do that. I do know Joss Whedon loves fanfic, and even used some lines from such in his shows. JK Rowling frowns on adult fanfic (those available to minors only), but really has no problem with it in general.
I will also give insight into this muddly little world when it concerns OC's (original characters) and the current battle between good OC's and Mary Sues.
Mary Sues, aka MS, are those characters that are self insertions of the author, gleaming paragons of characters that make canon characters (those that are the original creators creation.) weep for joy whenever they enter the prose. Typically, people who read fanfiction and are nuts about 'canon' (the original world, characters, rules etc.) will groan and gag in dismay when Mary Sue/Gary Stu comes aboard, and have made their own rules and even a multiple answer test to determine if your OC is a Sue. The trend now (since so many many young would be authors dip their grubby hands into fandoms like LOTR, Harry Potter, and Anime especially), is to shove all original characters of an author to the background, and they must NEVER outshine the canon characters in the story. They must not be pretty, have powers, be related to any canon character, have sex with the canon character (ohhh, big no-no!), and basically be interesting in any way. As a writer who frequently injects OC's (since I really want to break away from fandom eventually...), I must now deal with OC haters who want to slap a Mary Sue label on any character that they come across.
I think I digressed a bit here, but it's only because I've had to deal with these little elitists and their "rules" (silly when you think about it--we already are painting over a painted canvas...) when I placed a OC at center stage of a Silent Hill fic. Despite the fact I've had people who have NEVER played the game interested in the game...because they've read my story. I had one reviewer who said she was disappointed because she realized that my OC wasn't present in the games. I've had the same with my Resident Evil fics...I've made Capcom some money from the folks who said they would buy the game now after reading my story. While I'm not tooting my own horn and saying Capcom should thank me (because that's silly), these are the benefits of fanfic. I can't tell you the fandoms I became interested in because of fanfic. Some anime I went out and rented because of a fan story; I've also bought movies from fanfic, and books as well. I've seen many reviewers on other well-written fanfic that say they are running out and buying the books, movies, games, because they were so smitten by the story.
Granted, you have to wade through a ton of crummy tales to find the gems...but I believe fanfic is really harmless. I use it as practice...to see what people think of my style and plots--and to smush a plot bunny that may be currently bouncing through my head. I have learned a lot with grammar, spellings, and general style by writing this practice stories. While some people are dead set against it...I can tell you, if I EVER become published, and/or have a series interesting enough to warrant folks writing fanfiction, I would go by said sites just to pay them a visit--give some pointers, shake my head over bad characterization, etc. I wouldn't freak over it or steal fans ideas like I've heard some authors have done. I would encourage that they find their own stories and their own voice...but I wouldn't condemn them for playing in my sandbox.
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There are some forms of fanfiction out there that don't need to use established characters to have great stories. I can't speak for Silent Hill, but I write stories based in the Battletech Universe.
The background for Battletech is so expansive, with hundreds of planets, a dozen major and minor factions to chose from, and a detailed history that can be the backdrop for so many different stories. There is no need to use any established charcters for the story to fit into the universe. I have written over a dozen stories, none of which have used an established BT character. I draw from the background, frame the story so it fits into the universe, and imerse my characters in the rich history. And all without contradiction a single canon storyline.
Stories like this are a step closer to original fiction -- the characters are yours completely, and even some of the events are yours. But the universe building has been done, and exposure to it will gave you an idea of how much goes into such an undertaking.
Craig
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There are some forms of fanfiction out there that don't need to use established characters to have great stories. I can't speak for Silent Hill, but I write stories based in the Battletech Universe.
The background for Battletech is so expansive, with hundreds of planets, a dozen major and minor factions to chose from, and a detailed history that can be the backdrop for so many different stories. There is no need to use any established charcters for the story to fit into the universe. I have written over a dozen stories, none of which have used an established BT character. I draw from the background, frame the story so it fits into the universe, and imerse my characters in the rich history. And all without contradiction a single canon storyline.
Stories like this are a step closer to original fiction -- the characters are yours completely, and even some of the events are yours. But the universe building has been done, and exposure to it will gave you an idea of how much goes into such an undertaking.
Craig
Yeah, Silent hill you can pretty much do the same thing, but I added some canon characters to generate interest. The tricky part is to make sure all characters relate properly and behave as if they were in the game. Pain in the butt....makes me want to do my own original work! LOL!
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First let me state that I have always written original stuff (Mom still has a "book" I wrote when I was 7 or so). Very few things have been completed; a lot of ideas faded away and died out after an intial excitement phase.
In college, I was deep into Highlander: The Series, and no one else I knew was. I found kindred spirits online - probably the first online community of which I was an active member. I discovered fanfic, but I thought I'd never write any (I thought it was presumptuous to impose oneself on another's world). However, some of the people on the HL board were really good writers, and I enjoyed some of their stories; other stories, it was a struggle to find anything nice to say. After I'd spent enough time obsessing over Methos (my favorite character), studying him and the "rules" of the HL universe, discussing the show, and reading some fanfic, I got an idea that wouldn't go away. And so I wrote a fanfic. That was almost nine years ago, IIRC, when I was 19.
The main character was an extension of myself, because I wanted to go into that universe and play (I didn't know at the time self-insertion was a no-no, and still don't care, to this day; she was my stand-in to start, and grew into her own character). There was no sex involved. Very few of Methos's 5000 years of life have been detailed, so there were a lot of lovely blank spots to play in without overtly breaking universe rules/canon. I stuck to the two existing characters I knew best: Methos and Joe, with guest starring roles from characters I felt I had a pretty good feel for. The major deviation I wrote in was a reincarnation plot - something HL never included.
And yes, I posted the story on my now defunct website. If nothing else, that story holds the distinction of the first longish story I actually brought to a conclusion. ... I enjoyed writing it and amused myself, but didn't think it was that great (but I never like anything I write). I got a lot of lovely, positive comments on it (three in particular still stand out in my mind, but I'll spare you). Many people thought I had a good sense of the characterizations of those existing characters I used. Several people suggested I submit the story for publication - but that is the line I would never cross - I was fully aware I was playing with someone else's toys. (I did start a sequel, but it died.)
However, though I would never submit that story, there was enough interest in it and I liked the plot enough that I started trying to think of a way to adapt the story using my own characters. About four years later, an entirely new character (outside any existing universe, with some new "rules" I don't remember ever having seen before) walked into my head and I'm currently wrestling with him, trying to develop his story into something I can submit for publication. If not for that HL fanfic, he wouldn't exist; so writing the fanfic WAS a positive thing for me.
Soon after I'd written my own fanfic, I got tired of digging through all the drek to find the few fanfics I could stand to read, so I just stopped looking. The typos, bad grammar, overly self-indulgent writing, universe-rule-breaking... I couldn't stand it - if you're going to play in someone else's universe, you need to follow their rules as near as possible, IMNSHO. And I HATE slash - to me, that is the ultimate in disrepectful, canon-twisting rule-breaking. .... However, fanfic as an entity is not going away. People inclined to write have always done it, will always do it. There is some good stuff out there, but I have neither the time nor energy to look for it, so my solution is simply ignore it. If I ever manage to get published, I will make it publicly known that I'd really rather fans stay away from slash (if I want my main character to have same-sex relationships, I'll write that; but if I write him straight, I'd rather the fans respect that); but other than that, I'll probably adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.
Because I have to feel like I have a firm grasp of the universe and its characters before I would dare to write in it (and I have to have an idea that won't go away), the only other fanfic I've written and shown to people was a tiny, two-page piece that filled in a gap in the film V for Vendetta - I simply described something that logic dictates did happen, but it wasn't shown in the movie. The board I currently Admin liked it and wants me to write more, but I can't - there's not enough playspace/wiggle room in the universe; HL was big enough, V4V isn't. (The only exception I'd possibly make would be to rewrite the movie novelization - I used to love reading novelizations, but I know too much now, and that officially licensed, published book was just horrid.) I also haven't read any of the V4V fanfic my board members have created, except for the pieces written by a writer friend who is *this close* to getting her original novel published (same friend loved my little fill-in and praised me for sticking to the rules of the V-verse). ... I'm so judgmental of others' fanfic, I'd just rather stay away from it altogether.
More recently, I dug out that old HL fanfic to share with a couple people on my board and read it myself for the first time in years. Looking at it now, with a B.A. in English-Creative Writing under my belt, I had to laugh at myself and how proud I was of that piece. There are still some passages that I read as someone else's writing ("I can't have written that - it's too good."), but I can see how my writing has evolved since then and how inexperienced I was. I even, to my chagrin, found some typos! :D
Wow. Sorry I went on so long. To sum up: Fanfic can sometimes have a purpose and some of it can be quite good, but there's too much simply BAD writing out there for me to bother looking for what's worth reading. It's not going away, so I'd rather ignore it than fight it. As long as they're not trying to make money off it and are acknowledging that they're playing with someone else's toys, I'm okay.
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The only thing I will say...is I like slash, but only when done well, and IC. Which brings me to non-con, and basically darker stories. I'm not apologizing for liking slash or fanfiction, and I'm getting a slight vibe that I should be doing so...but I'm won't.
To each their own. While I'm using it as a stepping stone, getting my mistakes and style ironed out, others may say I should do it with orignial works. Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
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Like most people I have both read and written a few fanfics myself. I have found some that I really like and many more that were just bad. But, if used correctly it can be a great help for may budding writers to get there feet wet, and explore there style of writing without having to worry about developing characters and a world to place them in. Most fanfics that I have written where based in the world of the original author but developed my own characters because I am much better a character development than at world development. I have now started a new story and I am creating my own world, but because I have written some fanfics I feel more comfortable about creating my own place now. But on the flip side many people can become fanatics about what they think is great, and it be nothing but unimaginative crap that no one in the right mind would enjoy reading. These people are the reason many authors do not like fanfics. It is the few (or many) bad apples that make the world difficult for the rest of us.
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For me, most fanfic is pure crap. I can say that because I used to write crap, and know it when I have the misfortune of coming across it.
That being said, if you are going to write it then follow these rules:
1. Use secondary characters that never get fully developed
2. Avoid slash unless you want to die a firy death
3. Show it off for about a week, then burn it
4. Afterwards, never write any more fanfic
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For me, most fanfic is pure crap. I can say that because I used to write crap, and know it when I have the misfortune of coming across it.
That being said, if you are going to write it then follow these rules:
1. Use secondary characters that never get fully developed
2. Avoid slash unless you want to die a firy death
3. Show it off for about a week, then burn it
4. Afterwards, never write any more fanfic
Not to be mean...but all because you used to write crap...doesn't mean everyone does. I don't consider my work crap, and neither do the folks that read it. I've seen stories that actually outdo the original author, and can tell the writer will probably be published someday. I've read authors that dabbled in fanfic at one point of time. However, I did see you said "most" fanfic...which is why I'm not "really' ranting. But...
1. Secondary characters are very developed in my work...in fact, I revised a story to flesh out all OC secondary characters MORE than what I had.
2. Slash is an acquired taste...not everyone likes it--but many do. As long as it's handled well...and realistic, then I have no issue with it--and prefer it.
3. As for showing it off--been showing it off for around two years now...and learned a lot from reviewers and constructive feedback.
4. Maybe, maybe not...depends if I ever get published. If I do...then I'll have that to occupy my time instead of stomping across another's Sandbox. Till then however...
I'm assuming you're joking...but if you aren't...then you haven't looked hard enough through the crap to find the gems.
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I'm assuming you're joking...but if you aren't...then you haven't looked hard enough through the crap to find the gems.
In part, yes I am joking. I have found a couple of gems, but not many. Therefore, I haven't been looking. If somebody asks me to read their work, I will out of courtesy and give an honest critique. I always try to be constructive and not negative.
My statement about having written crap and knowing it when I see it is kind of an inside joke about movie critic Roger Ebert. He wrote the script for Beyond the Valley of the Dolls, which he admits was pure crap. As a result, he knows crap when he sees it.
I must also admit that I have a special loathing for Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings fanfiction. My ex-wife spent twelve hours a day reading and writing both. I was subjected to a lot of very bad fanfic. When I began looking for good fanfic, I found very little.
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what type of fan fiction ? crazy hentai harry potter fan fiction or kind of normal fan fiction(there is no normal fan fiction )
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there are web sites with 1000's of stories of crap pure crap. I've read one story that i liked and that was Angelic Days. but it is true i guess there has to be some good ones (Unless someone sends them to me though its not worth it to look for it.)
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I luv fanfics because it lets the fans bring out a whole new side of their favorite books and etc. i read them and write them. 8)
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Someone mentioned writing into a gaming world as fan fiction, which I wonder about.
I've taken gaming campaigns or ideas for them, and fleshed them out into a narrative either for the players benefit or to give myself an idea of what else might need to be in the game for the players to come across to make things interesting. I am thinking specifically of Classic Battletech in this regard, well before Stackpole and FASA brought us the Clans, and how absent a few sourcebooks how bare and wide open the universe appeared to be.
One thing we took to doing was keeping the hell away from storied units, people, and neither I nor my friends ever got up the nerve to send in any of these stories to the Battletech magazine that was run for a while (what was it called, MechForce or BattleForce, something along those lines....). I don't really see that as fan-fiction in the sense of taking established characters and a main storyline and writing around it. Sort of like how some authors try to sell short stories or book treatments to WotC or whomever is responsible for D&D related novels and such.
On the other hand, I have never gone looking for, nor do I have any desire to read, fan fiction related to novels, movies or television series that I have seen. It just doesn't seem right to me, somehow.
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One thing we took to doing was keeping the hell away from storied units, people, and neither I nor my friends ever got up the nerve to send in any of these stories to the Battletech magazine that was run for a while (what was it called, MechForce or BattleForce, something along those lines....).
Battletechnology was the magazine you were thinking of. Me and a friend had some stuff published in the last issue they ever put out...
Craig
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I think some fan fan ficton sites are excellent. But I may be a little biased, for several years I belonged to my friend's fan fiction site. I wrote articles, stories,reviewed stories and even did a little editing as well. My friend expected quality, and rewrites of slated stories was the norm. So I guess it depends on which fan fiction site you visit and how talented and creative the writers there are.
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im sorry if i offend you... but i have never gone on a website with fan fiction and left happy :-\
it sucks...honestly sucks
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Good sites are hard to find; a lot of the really good ones (quality fic & friendly atmosphere) are often specific to a single fandom.
Don't bother with ff.net, they have no standards; if slash isn't your thing, the field of available quality sites is even narrower.
Open Scrolls (scribeoz.com) is good (and all het), and just opened up from an LotR-only to multi-fandom (including Firefly, DrWho and other v. good shows); they are open to new writers but have standards, and guests can read all but the NC17 stuff ;D
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im sorry if i offend you... but i have never gone on a website with fan fiction and left happy :-\
it sucks...honestly sucks
Then maybe you are browsing in the wrong categories? I don't think my stories particularly suck...and I've been told they are well-written--barring a few typos here and there. I have no idea where you are looking or what fandoms you're browsing, but there are good stories out there.
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Good sites are hard to find; a lot of the really good ones (quality fic & friendly atmosphere) are often specific to a single fandom.
Don't bother with ff.net, they have no standards; if slash isn't your thing, the field of available quality sites is even narrower.
Open Scrolls (scribeoz.com) is good (and all het), and just opened up from an LotR-only to multi-fandom (including Firefly, DrWho and other v. good shows); they are open to new writers but have standards, and guests can read all but the NC17 stuff ;D
FF.net may not have standards...but you can find some of the best plot-driven stories there...you just have to look.
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Oh, I'm not saying there's nothing good on ff.net - heck, some of my older stuff is in there somewhere ;D It's just really quite a process, dredging through the muck to find the good stuff. Naturally, once you spot a decent author, you read their stuff, you follow their recommendations to other decent stuff and so on... And if you're really lucky, somewhere along the way you find another handful of sites that aren't a free for all. Less muck is good. ;D
And, incidentally, the trudge is twice as difficult if one is looking for decent het fanfic... Oh, the gallons and gallons of bleach my poor eyes required before I found the smaller sites I now frequent! ;)
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het????
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non-slash... to be most accurate, sticking to cannon-accurate sexual orientation of characters; in other words, if the characters in a pairing are straight in the original work, they are straight in the fanfic.
In general, het sites are 'het-only' sites, mostly because the majority of mixed sites (like ff.net) are slash-heavy, and there are proportionally very few het-heavy sites, especially those that welcome NC17 material.
Nothing wrong with slash, it's all a matter of opinion. Nothing wrong with bi or gay characters either, mind you, but in the case of fanfic, only when the original author intended it that way -- it's part of respecting the original work.
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In anime fanfiction, stories with explict sex are called 'Lemons'. Stories that have sexual situations but no details are called 'Limes'. M/M parings are Yaoi, F/F parings are Yuri.
Strange how different areas develop their own lingo......
Craig
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;D
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??? ...... :o ...... :-X
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i had to resurrect this thread because i thought this was funny:
http://www.dieselsweeties.com/archive.php?s=1713
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tee hee! ;D
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I think fanfic is like a weapon. It is good or bad depending on the hand that wields (writes) it. I am an unpublished author and on occasion I have written some fan fic. I have not shared it with anyone. Not because I am ashamed of it. Quite the contrary, I am rather proud of what I wrote. But my fanfic rarely uses the characters of the original. I will likely mention them from time to time, but I usually create an original character and story line, that is based in the world. So for example I write about a mutant set in the Marvel Universe. He is not a member of the X-Men but has heard of them.
As far as the Dresden Universe. Yep I wrote a story. With an original character. Not in Chicago. No interaction with the Dresden Characters. And In fact I think I only mention the White Council, Wardens, and Laws once each. I haven't shown it to anyone else and don't know if I ever will.
I am not sure I like the attitude that some authors/writers have about fanfic. I am a singer/songwriter/storyteller as well and have 4 CDs out, and I LOVE to hear someone singing my songs or telling my stories. In fact just recently I met someone who told me that after hearing my stories that they were inspired by me to take up storytelling.
So if nothing else, if I ever get a book published I could not help but be elated if someone took up writing after reading my work. I may make the caveat that I am certainly not bound by anything that happens in a fanfic story. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't write it.
As an amateur teacher, (not licensed I just teach the skills I know) no writing is bad regardless of what ANYONE says. Every time you write something you learn something. Every time you learn something it is GOOD! And I have more than once tore the living @$#@#! out of someone for being too negative or critical about someones else's efforts. It amazes me how often someone can do nothing but tear someone apart and down without a single word of encouragement and then have the audacity to call it "Constructive Criticism".
Jim is a terrific writer and I love his books. Harry's speech in the conclave at the end of Proven Guilty is a work of art. And his writing gets a rise out my emotions. Sometimes that is good, sometimes that is bad. But that is the whole point. He is able to elicit those reactions. I only hope that the book I am working on will be able to do the same.
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raises hand
It's the first thing I ever wrote and it's out here...lurking on the internet. I find it to be a good exercise, especially since I'm quite new to this whole writing thing. I use it to explore different things such as writing fights, fleshing out personal interactions and developing humor. Astonishing how hard that last one is. My real-life humor tends to be bone dry and it is a real challenge to get that on paper.
To use the analogy that's been bandied about, I might have gone into someone else's house, but I'm not drinking up all their beer and pissing on their furniture. I'm just chillin' on the couch, watching TV.
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I've never really been big on reading or writing fan fiction. Even after I started a little fan fiction thing with some friends involving comic book characters (I classify it as such because it's not getting publish and we're not paid for it), I still tend to avoid delving into the genre.
However, there are worlds - not specific characters - that I would love to do fan fiction stories in, creating whole new characters of my own. Somewhere earlier on this thread someone mentioned fanfic not really conducive to creativity. I have to argue against that, based on how I feel about fanfic. When a writer wants to play around in a specific setting without using the characters that known for that setting, I think that's creative. It says alot about a writer when fans want to play around in the world he or she created.
Also, for me, I would never dream of touching characters I've grown to care about (being loving or hating them). Those characters are sacred, in my opinion, and I wouldn't dream of touching them with my unworthy imagination. That, and it wouldn't be canon. And I would never be able to live up to the original author's style.
There aren't many settings I would delve into writing fanfic for, whipping up new characters and stories that wouldn't interfere with what's come before. But, the Dresdenverse is one I would love to play around in. Lately, I've been thinking of ideas I could use, but only because I so badly want to run/play an RPG campaign in Dresden's world, as do a few of my friends. I'll likely end up running the game, being the one that's exposed the others in my group to the series, but I definitely will be avoiding using characters from the books as much as possible.
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I like fan fiction and am tremendously grateful to it. I was a part of X Files fandom while it was hot and wrote fanfic for about 4 years. Before I got involved, I didn't know I could write but disovered that I could after I wrote my first couple of stories. There is nothing like the thrill of writing a hot story with lots of cliff-hangers!
Am I stealing somebody else's characters? No, I'm borrowing them and not making a dime off it. In XF at least, the creator has implicitly given his fans permission to write (he used the name of a fan-fic writer in two eps of the X Files as a sympathetic character). That said, fan-fic is only good to teach you plotting, basic writing, dialog but not character development since you're taking a given character and taking it from there. I'm ready to create my own primary characters now, although I did have a blast with the plotting. I just need a place to do it and, hopefully, sympathetic and knowledgeable people to write with.
I haven't written in other genres and don't plan to borrow Harry or anybody else from the Dresdenverse!
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For me, it helps me hone my skill. I write alot of original fiction, but I have a fanfic story going on at the same time, too. And the main reason I turned to it is quite simple: It's nice. It's really nice to have people read your writing and respond, while you're working on it. Nice to know someone's reading, and someone likes it. Most writers never know, not until they're published, and even then... with fanfic, you get responses, usually.
I usually use ff.net to post. And yes, it is hard to find good writing, but when you do, it's well-worth the wait. It's really hard to find good het, but again, I like slash and het, so I don't really care either way.
But I never write fanfic for an author I truly love- I would never for Golding or Burgess. I think their writing is perfect. And I don't use Butcher, either, but only because I never really wanted to.
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I tend only to do fanfic for books/fandoms which are complete -- ie, the canon is set and there is not going to be more story from the author. I'll bend a little when doing little one-offs for somebody's birthday or something, but for the real, going to spend some real effort and time, stories, I prefer my stuff to be well sunk in established canon. Guess any Dresden stuff isn't going to happen for a while ;D
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I've never written fanfic, and I can't recall reading any either. I suppose, however, that anything that gets you writing is good, especially if you enjoy it. Just realize that anything you write will never be published. If it helps you figure out how to write, then wonderful. But at some point, if you want to be published, you need to move on.
Matt
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Yep, long as one remembers it's all in good fun -- it's good practice and mental exercise ;D
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I'll raise my hand and confess to both reading and writing fanfic.
There is a LOT of really horrible fanfic out there, no doubt, and I've gotten extremely selective about what I'll read in the last few years.
Not all of us are raving nutjobs, either. I actually belong to a small, tiny really, writing group that's aimed towards moving into original work as well. We all view writing fanfic as a way to improving our writing in general. I'm amazed sometimes at just how far my writing has come in the few years I've known these people.
For the record, I've never touched anything from a book universe. Generally those worlds are pretty complete for me and I don't feel that there's anything I could add. So no, I have no urge or intention to ever write any Dresden-verse fanfic. And maybe I also feel it's a bit disrespectful towards the authors.
Personally, I would be horrified if anyone associated with with the source material were to see my stories. I have no illusions that way. No, I don't write slash, but still. That's not why I write it.
Why don't I put forth more effort into original work? Quite frankly, I've got an extremely demanding job and I work a lot of overtime. I simply don't have the bandwidth right now to create my own universe. Yet I have the drive and desire to write something. I do it for relaxation and my own edification. If a few of my friends enjoy it, more's the better. Not a lot of people see my stuff and that's fine with me. But bottom line, I feel it's better to keep my hand in, keep practicing, even if it's with other people's characters, than to do nothing.
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I wrote my first novel at work. Each day I would have several hours where I was alone and had nothing else to do. My work was caught up and I could either surf the web (which gets boring fast and is looked down on at work), read a book (also looked down on), or write my novel. Writing was the one thing they couldn't trace. I stuck my flash drive in the computer, wrote all I could for that day, then took it back out and took it home. No problems. Before that I simply e-mailed sections of the story to myself. I thought it was kind of funny, actually, because I was technically getting paid to write my book. Now I just need to finish editing it and get it sold. Then I'll make the big bucks. Or maybe just get it sold and not make anything. There's something to be said about having a copy of a book you wrote sitting on your bookshelf.
Matt
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Don't usually read fanfic anymore, most of the stuff I've read tended to focus on the fanfic author's favorite traits of a particular character, rather than exhibiting the depth that the originating author would instill. Having said that, however, I do recall a series of fantasy novels that were set in a particular city. I forget (gasp!) the original author, or the names of any of the novels, the characters, or even the city. Something quite similar to Terry Pratchett's Discworld characters, but waaaay before him (yeah, I've got some years on me.).
Anyway, after the originator of the series (so it appeared) started to run out of stories to tell, somebody came up with the idea of the shared universe, in which different authors would borrow some of the original characters and use them in a supporting role to their own (newly-minted) protagonist; again, set within the same city. This was done with the original author's consent and, sometimes, complicity - as in co-writer. As I recall the main ground rules were that the borrowing author could not kill off an original character, nor have the original character exhibit behavior which was grossly "out of character".
Quite ofter the non-originating writers would say in the author's notes that they were raving (sic) fans of the original works, and were so very, very honored to be allowed to play in that universe.
So, on the whole 'fanfic-angel or demon' question, I'm with the pitchforks and torches crowd, except when...
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I am not sure I like the attitude that some authors/writers have about fanfic. I am a singer/songwriter/storyteller as well and have 4 CDs out, and I LOVE to hear someone singing my songs or telling my stories. In fact just recently I met someone who told me that after hearing my stories that they were inspired by me to take up storytelling.
I think this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'll mention it again. Please keep in mind that the attitude of some authors/writers isn't so much about people "playing in their backyard" as it is a legal issue.
There are others here who can talk about this in more depth, but as I understand it it was Anne McCaffrey who found herself being sued by someone who'd written fanfic in the Pern universe. Something in one of her novels was similar to something in one of these fanfics, and the writer decided McCaffrey had "stolen" the idea! I'm sure someone else can give more info...I'm quoting memories of stuff I heard second and third-hand. Obviously (assuming all this did happen) Ms. McCaffrey wasn't sued successfully, but my guess is if you're on the wrong end of a lawsuit once, you don't want to go through that again.
One I do remember involved Harry Potter. In a news story there was a stink because a woman was writing HP fanfics (for example, a retelling of the first book from Hermione's POV). Warner Brothers took an interest (somewhat negative) as she was putting this stuff out online and at the beginning of each story put in that all ideas/characters, etc were a copyright of hers!
I agree with people here that fanfics can be great learning tools. Sadly the actions of a few individuals have meant that many authors have needed to take a negative view of them.
Keith
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I suppose that what we write could technically be termed as fanfic. We work in the D20 world, so no, we haven't created our own universe. I've found that most of the fantasy genre consists of doing thinly veiled ripoffs of preceding works - mostly of D&D. I doubt that you can go to the book store and pick up a novel from the genre and find something where some part of the novel hasn't been taken from D&D. Does that stop them from being enjoyable to read? Does it seem to stifle the author's creativity? No, on both counts. What usually happens is that the author has to be more creative. It's often quite challenging to stay within the lore of a given framework. At other times, the canon lore is sadly lacking, in which case, we take that be full creative license to dream something up that a) fits with rest of lore (e.g. no giant mechanical robots in a magical setting) and b) works for the story.
I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of hating of MS's/GS's as well. Please, allow me to pop your bubble on this. Most all of the Anne Rice books are MS's. Wesley Crusher, from StarTrek, is a GS. Jack Ryan is a classic GS and I cannot help but think that you've all read at least one Tom Clancy book. A great many novels that we all know and love are really MS's or GS's. Let's be honest here, what you really hate is the poorly written and often near-psychotic ramblings of the 14 year old emo crowd that flood ff.net and it's sister site, fp.com. FF has a lot of trash, I agree but I also agree that there are some gems. It doesn't matter what you do, you always have to dig through a lot of dirt to find a diamond.
I've already said that what we write could well be classes as fanfic. Do we suck? We like to think that we do not. I'll even invite you over to read and decide for yourself. Our site is at http://www.rpg-gamerz.com/sd (http://www.rpg-gamerz.com/sd). Feel free to leave comments. We started our own site because we found several problems with the existing sites. Firstly, we're set up to allow collaborative writing and editing. We've yet to see an existing site that allows this. Secondly, we work by invitation only mainly because we hope to avoid the 14 year old illiterate (lack of grammar and spelling) emo crowd. They genereally annoy all of us to the point that tasering starts to sound like a viable option. Thirdly, the entire world is not meant to be "kid safe". Adults are entitled to some fun too. Some times, sex, drugs, etc. are a necessary part of plot development. You can't really do that when you have to be PG-13 all the time. Fifth, posting anything which actually required a disclaimer on it would be cause for me to whip out my voodoo doll and hex you ;P.
We've only got 4 authors and 3 stories, but if you'd like to send a writing sample, I'll be happy to let the members vote. If approved we'll extend and invitation, set you up with an account, etc.
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I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of hating of MS's/GS's as well. Please, allow me to pop your bubble on this. Most all of the Anne Rice books are MS's. Wesley Crusher, from StarTrek, is a GS. Jack Ryan is a classic GS and I cannot help but think that you've all read at least one Tom Clancy book. A great many novels that we all know and love are really MS's or GS's. Let's be honest here, what you really hate is to poorly written and often near-psychotic ramblings of the 14 year old emo crowd that flood ff.net and it's sister site, fp.com.
Thank you! I'm not sure it's my cup of tea, but I'll try to take a look and wish you luck.
You're absolutely right. I'd add Laurell K. Hamilton's books to the list as well. I enjoyed the early ones, but they've gotten pretty over the top lately. Hey, I like smut as much as the next gal, but... I prefer a bit more perspective and context.
I also applaud your idea that limiting yourself to PG-13 content is unneccesarily limiting. I tend to like more 'adult' themes myself. That doesn't always mean actual sex, per se, but adult concepts and treatment.
I'd probably ramble more, but I have a story due... soonish ;)
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Fanfic is like anything else in the world - dependent on the person behind it. Unfortunately, we have a rather large amount of stupid in the world, so the vast majority of the people behind it are going to show through badly.
In short, as in the Harry Dresden universe: magic is neither good nor evil. It is a tool. (Yes, I am that geeky. No comments on that, please.)
As for the major arguments against it...
You can't be a writing elitest and say 'why not write something of your own' because not everyone wants to be a full-fledged author. Some people just watch a tv show or read a book and say "hey, I wonder what would happen if..." And if they later make the transition over to writing their own stuff because of this, that's all right as well. After all, we probably wouldn't have new writers if we didn't also have old writers for them to be inspired by. Fanfiction, though, is a hobby - and just like reading, or roleplaying, or even horseback riding, it doesn't need to have a purpose other than fun. That's what hobbies are for.
On the author's right to ban fanfiction: I agree. If you don't want people writing fanfiction, they shouldn't do it. But people shouldn't download music illegally either, and they do it anyway. Some things, you just can't help, and it's honestly not worth the expense it would take to track down one of your own fans and tell them off. And why alienate someone who loves your work that much anyway? (Then again, I happen to be terribly non-confrontational.) J.K. Rowling doesn't mind fanfiction, for example, as long as it isn't explicit - she's even mentioned that she looked through it some to see what the fans liked and didn't like about her books so far.
My personal opinion of fanfiction is positive. I've used it as an opportunity to develop random background characters, create new plots, and even try out very different writing styles and techniques. The best constructive criticism I've ever received has been from fanfiction, as I was lucky enough to find a very literary-minded group of 'ficcers' to help out. The difference between fanfiction and published material here is not to be understated - there's more people willing to read your fiction, as they already know they're interested in at least part of it, and there's less paranoia about ideas being 'stolen' (a ridiculous thought, but I suppose it's happened before). There's less stress, fewer deadlines, and the certainty of encouragement in the form of regular reviews.
In closing, I'd like to add that in my case, my fanfiction has not been a wasted effort at all. I have a very large, loyal base of readers begging me to tell them when my original book will be out so that they can buy it. If and when that book comes out (it's finished, and currently going through the submission long-haul), I will already have a convenient way to advertise it: on the next chapter of my story.
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I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of hating of MS's/GS's as well. Please, allow me to pop your bubble on this. Most all of the Anne Rice books are MS's. Wesley Crusher, from StarTrek, is a GS. Jack Ryan is a classic GS and I cannot help but think that you've all read at least one Tom Clancy book.
I do not think this makes the point you may want it to make, in that what this says to me is that Anne Rice and Tom Clancy are complete rubbish, which does actually concur with my experience of reading same. [ I think Interview with the Vampire has flashes of potential and I kind of wish she'd got a decent editor who had encouraged those flashes instead of allowing her to turn into the ego-monster she now is. ]
I mean, really, did anyone watching TNG not hate Wesley Crusher and want him to die ?
I'm not saying that there aren't people to whom MS/GS are an appealing fantasy. I just don't think I've ever seen an example of MS/GS fiction that's actually been any good or had any lasting success. The closest I can think of is the Count of Monte Cristo, and the uncut text of that, and the better film versions, do make it very clear that while he is getting to be very wealthy and exact intricate revenge on his enemies, he's also completely deranged and not being presented as a sympathetic figure.
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Fanfic is like anything else in the world - dependent on the person behind it. Unfortunately, we have a rather large amount of stupid in the world, so the vast majority of the people behind it are going to show through badly.
Yeah, that's been my experience with most of it I've read. OTOH, the first piece of fiction writing I actually got paid for ($50) was a Sherlock Holmes pastiche short story in a magazine.
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Just the $0.02 of a reader. Disclaimer I am not an author and doubt I ever will be. I would not be able to write myself out of a hole in the ground that I dug myself.
Anyway, as a reader my only real complaint about fanfiction is when the author's take the established story(ies) and character development and toss it out the window because it isn't what they wanted. Unfortunately the only case in point I have is Harry Potter fans. In particular the shippers. When JKRowling had Harry/Ginny Ron/Hermione, some people went off the deep end and cried foul and stated vehemently that they were going to "write" the real Book 6, the one where Ron dies and Harry ends up with Hermione, yadda yadda yadda.
As far as I am concerned as a reader I am just along for the ride. I want to watch the journey, the end isn't all that important to me. I also tend to have more faith in the fact that the author knows more about whats going on with their stories than I do. Since ya know it is their baby. Like I said I am just an observer.
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First, I'm new to this concept of fanfic--so you just guessed my age. If you're really dense I've got it on my profile. Further I am a successful business women by genes and personality.
This world is hard enough for the artist or the writer to make a decent living without their intellectual material being taken away from them. The heart of this matter is the business of intellectual rights. Jim Butcher owns the Dresden Files & it's franchise unless he has expressly given or sold those rights. No ifs, ands or buts about that folks. Even the scriptwriters who hadn't read all the books, were still hired and paid under his permission! Of course YOU, a dedicated fan, wouldn't write that Murphy's Dad was shacking up with a hooker in FL--but they had permission to do that. Hopefully they learned their lesson and heaven help us----a G__ D___ JEEP!
OUCH, I hear you yelling at me. Stick it out with me a little bit longer okay?
Jim Butcher has kindly invited us into his home (mind) to play. It's just nasty and wrong to walk out the door with his sofa, don't you think?
If you are using fanfic to learn in private, great! It seems one hell of a way to hone in on one part of writing, ie character or action or dialog, etc while borrowing the world created by another. You JUST DON'T have the RIGHT to ever publish, share, distribute, or even have a friend or colleage read it without permission of the original writer. It's Jim Butcher's grey matter, not yours.
Besides, face facts. Once you've done it and then go back and read one of his books, ya just want to tear up what you did anyway because it just plain stinks next to the original. I suspose that's why a lot of authors don't care about fanfiction. Even so, you should still should leave the sofa where it belongs and don't rearrange the room, okay?
Good writing all! OUCH, okay--so some of you still want to lay into me---go for it, as long as it's creative critism you sling back at me! Remember, I'm an OLD LADY!
Meg in IA
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Jim Butcher has kindly invited us into his home (mind) to play. It's just nasty and wrong to walk out the door with his sofa, don't you think?
It's entirely up to the author whether fanfic counts as stealing their furniture, though. I know at least one person whom Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman have given specific permission to write Good Omens fanfic, and I have no problem at all with the existence of that, but if any of my fiction were to see print, and anyone were to fanfic it, I would hunt them down and sever their heads slowly with a hacksaw.
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Jim Butcher has kindly invited us into his home (mind) to play. It's just nasty and wrong to walk out the door with his sofa, don't you think?
It's entirely up to the author whether fanfic counts as stealing their furniture, though. I know at least one person whom Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman have given specific permission to write Good Omens fanfic, and I have no problem at all with the existence of that, but if any of my fiction were to see print, and anyone were to fanfic it, I would hunt them down and sever their heads slowly with a hacksaw.
There are only two cases where it's okay to publish stuff using another author's characters: 1. When the characters are in the public domain (Dracula, Beowulf, etc.) and 2. When the copyright owner gives advance permission or hires the characters out (Star Trek novels, Buffy comic books, etc.). If some fan wrote and tried to publish the untold episodes of Harry and Elaine's teenage years, or the classic love story of Thomas and Justine, then Jim Butcher would have every right to whack them on their pointy little heads with the big hammer.
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Anyway, as a reader my only real complaint about fanfiction is when the author's take the established story(ies) and character development and toss it out the window because it isn't what they wanted.
Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with it, as long as it's not grotesquely stupid (such as Goth!Hermione or Emo!Harry... actually, the last might be canon, I correct myself). Even then, the point is that you can't say 'only good writers are allowed to write fanfic' - because how are you supposed to pick those out, or even enforce such a silly rule? As for alternate "ships", I actually rather like some of the weirder ones. After all, it takes a certain sort of talent to write something crazy like "George/Hermione" or "Oliver/Ginny" and make it not only believable, but entertaining. And, of course, we come back to the point that JK Rowling has specifically allowed her fans to write fanfiction. I think she might have a good deal fewer fans, even, if she said no. Most fanfic writers will respect if an author says no, but they'll see it as being a little needlessly paranoid, and their respect for that author drops some. One of the bigger jokes in the fanfic community is that Anne Rice says no to fanfiction - considering all of her stuff is highly derivative, and most of it really isn't that great.
There are only two cases where it's okay to publish stuff using another author's characters: ...2. When the copyright owner gives advance permission or hires the characters out (Star Trek novels, Buffy comic books, etc.). If some fan wrote and tried to publish the untold episodes of Harry and Elaine's teenage years, or the classic love story of Thomas and Justine, then Jim Butcher would have every right to whack them on their pointy little heads with the big hammer.
I only know of a few total nutcases who have ever tried to publish fanfiction, unless you count free web sites and archives that are explicitly there for such things. And most of those archives will refuse to web "publish" any fanfiction for authors who have explicitly stated that they don't want anyone writing fanfiction for their works. No one makes any money off of fanfiction unless they're Tom Stoppard and "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead" is the title. If someone does try to make money off of their baby fanfic, most of the rest of the ficcers roll their eyes at them and talk about how stupid they are on their forums. Some people even email them to mention that it's not legal. You can't ask much more.
If you are using fanfic to learn in private, great! It seems one hell of a way to hone in on one part of writing, ie character or action or dialog, etc while borrowing the world created by another. You JUST DON'T have the RIGHT to ever publish, share, distribute, or even have a friend or colleage read it without permission of the original writer. It's Jim Butcher's grey matter, not yours.
There's a very big difference between stealing furniture (a common argument, which I really don't understand) and writing a derivative story. The furniture is worth something. The story is worth less than nothing, and by using it, you're not taking anything away from the author who wrote the original - in point of fact, you are advertising for them, in a sense. No one is going to read your fanfic and decide they don't need to read the original book. I have, however, read fanfiction from one of my favorite fanfic authors in a world I haven't ever heard of, and decided that I needed to get the original book from that. Howl's Moving Castle, for instance, I hadn't even heard of until someone on my f-list wrote a one-shot for it - I picked it up at the bookstore that following weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it.
In essence, there is a big difference between limiting a product and limiting a thought. You can, and should, stop people from stealing furniture. You can't stop someone from reading a book and going 'what if'? and neither can you stop them from writing a review of a book based on what they thought of it. It's a bit of an extention, but consider a fanfic a kind of positive review of a book - as in, I liked it so much that I wanted to try writing more of it.
Besides, how else do you think Harry Potter readers survive the long dry spells between books? I'd bet you a lot of money that there's a HP fanfic on quite a few of those readers' favorites lists. Dirty little secret. :) Mark it up as keeping up enthusiasm between book releases - another plus for fanfiction.
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I think fanfiction is both good and bad for aspiring writers.
For me, it's helped me grow in regards to the voices of different characters, and how to keep those voices separate, and obviously different from each other. I've been writing fanfiction since I was twelve, and it's definitely fun as a writer to be able to create the episode of a show that you always wished would've happened, or to expand on a character's thoughts that you don't necessarily get to see during a particular scene. It's great writing practice.
The bad thing, however, is growing lazy and too accustomed to the simplicity that fanfiction writing provides us. I, for one, have trouble coming up with my own in-depth characters, as for so long I've just borrowed other people's.
I think from the creator's standpoint, fanfiction would be both insulting and a compliment - a compliment because people care enough about your characters and your world to want to play in it, want to further the bounds of that world. An insult, though, if they stomp all over your characters or have terrible grammar or bad jokes or something. Joss Whedon openly, wholeheartedly encourages fanfiction, whereas Anne Rice has threatened to sue fanfic writers. I suppose it depends on how seriously the creator/author takes themselves and their stories. Fanfiction can only serve to further popularize the work of the original creator/author, so I don't see why some writers get so bent out of shape about it. Again, if it were done in an insulting manner, I could understand it. If I were Joss Whedon, I doubt I'd much appreciate some of the pairings people dare to create - Giles/Spike, Dawn/Faith, etc. Or if I were Anne Rice, I wouldn't want to read some badly-written account of Mona getting it on with Louis. But whenever I personally find a new obsession, one of the first things I do to familiarize myself with it and its characters, is find out what kind of fanfiction is out there for that particular fandom, and read all of the good ones I can find. And if there aren't any good ones, it's not long before I start writing one myself.
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If you are using fanfic to learn in private, great! It seems one hell of a way to hone in on one part of writing, ie character or action or dialog, etc while borrowing the world created by another. You JUST DON'T have the RIGHT to ever publish, share, distribute, or even have a friend or colleage read it without permission of the original writer. It's Jim Butcher's grey matter, not yours.
Heh...okay. I didn't have a problem up until you said I didn't have the right. Especially about sharing it with personal friends. That bothers me. First ammendment, lady. And people put their ideas out for the whole world to see. I don't see the harm in expanding on that idea, especially if:
I put a disclaimer at the beginning of every chapter.
I don't make chicken scratch doing it.
I honestly don't see how I don't have the right to have fun if it doesn't. hurt. anybody.
Why is this such a contraversial issue? Nobody. Makes. Money. It's. Something. That's. Enjoyed. Need I spell it out more clearly for you?
~She-Wolf
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Heh...okay. I didn't have a problem up until you said I didn't have the right. Especially about sharing it with personal friends. That bothers me. First ammendment, lady. And people put their ideas out for the whole world to see. I don't see the harm in expanding on that idea, especially if:
I put a disclaimer at the beginning of every chapter.
I don't make chicken scratch doing it.
I honestly don't see how I don't have the right to have fun if it doesn't. hurt. anybody.
Why is this such a contraversial issue? Nobody. Makes. Money. It's. Something. That's. Enjoyed. Need I spell it out more clearly for you?
If you think it's not a copyright violation just because you're not getting paid for it, you're wrong. Write for your own amusement, fine, share it with a friend, fine, but publish it to the world at large, including via a free web site, not fine.
If you want to show the world at large what a nifty writer you are, instead of stealing some other writer's ideas and characters, write something original.
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For my own 2¢ I like slash fan fiction when I can find someone who writes well.
BTW, does anyone know where I could find Dresdenverse slash?
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"The furniture is worth something. The story is worth less than nothing, and by using it, you're not taking anything away from the author who wrote the original." from Firegazer.
A story is worth a great deal, especially if it is your income. Anyone who has actually written and struggled through a true manuscript would NEVER say that a story is worth less than nothing, published or not.
Please rethink your statement. The reason you hear the furniture analogy frequently is because it is completely applicable. Intellectual property is owned by the person who created it. That is the essence behind all the copywrite laws.
As I said if you are using it in private to learn, great. If you are putting it out on the internet, which I consider to be the same as publishing you are "taking" the property of others. Perhaps someone with more law experience could address the internet issue as I'm certainly not an expert on it. I'm pretty sure that an e-book is copywrited the same as a paper manuscript?
I really appreciate the quote from BolshevikMuppet, with which I thoroughly agree. "The bad thing, however, is growing lazy and too accustomed to the simplicity that fanfiction writing provides us. I, for one, have trouble coming up with my own in-depth characters, as for so long I've just borrowed other people's." The challenge is to create those characters and do them well. Applause to BolshevikMuppet!
Meg in IA
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I have written a tiny bit of fanfic. Back in the deeps of Dr. Who hiatus -- when the idea of the shows return was almost ridiculously optimistic -- I dabbled in it here and there. Those pieces were the first things I ever dared share with an audience. Their complimentary acceptance was a huge morale builder for the idea that maybe I could write a fair stick.
When Firefly was cancelled, I wrote this: Burnt (http://markettheocracy.blogsome.com/2007/05/27/burnt-a-tale-of-jubal-early/). It was originally meant to be the prelude to a much longer tale called Little Man Loved Fire, about the incident Early casually mentions in 'Objects In Space'. However, by that point, I was neck deep in my own writing and didn't have time for fanfic.
Both of those, however, were cancelled shows. What are the fans of cancelled/ended media supposed to do? The property is lying fallow and unused, and it is much loved. It would be silly if people didn't try and continue it.
That said, I think it only respectful to follow the wishes of the creator of the property. This is not a legal opinion -- it's a question of manners.
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Here's an interesting link to the most notorious case of What Not To Do In Writing Fan Fiction: http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/004162.html
Just out of curiosity I went over to www.fanfiction.net to see what was out there from the Dresdenverse. There are 80 some odd (some very odd) Dresden files stories out there, most based on the characters as written in the TV show (evidently lots of Bob fans out there). In contrast, there are about a quarter of a million Harry Potter tales, which mostly seem to be concerned with who's snogging who.
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For my own 2¢ I like slash fan fiction when I can find someone who writes well.
BTW, does anyone know where I could find Dresdenverse slash?
No, I don't, but I'm now damn tempted to write some. I just can't figure who. Thomas and someone. But who? Like......hmm. -Ponders.- Gimme a few days; I'll get back to ya. -wink-
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For my own 2¢ I like slash fan fiction when I can find someone who writes well.
BTW, does anyone know where I could find Dresdenverse slash?
No, I don't, but I'm now damn tempted to write some. I just can't figure who. Thomas and someone. But who? Like......hmm. -Ponders.- Gimme a few days; I'll get back to ya. -wink-
Browsing the titles in Dresden fanfiction turns up some homoerotic stuff about Thomas, but I didn't look to see who it was with. There's any number of slash Harry Potter stories listed in multiple permutations, Harry/Ron, Harry/Draco, Snape/Draco, Hermione/Jenny, ad nauseum.
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Whew. Idly flipping through that fanfiction.net reminded me of the biggest reason not to write fanfic: to keep from being associated with the pathetic ramblings of lonely, horny teenagers.
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My fanfiction stories are mostly in 'dead' series -- Some anime, and a couple of other series. These days, my writing is based in the Battletech Universe, where I don't need to use a single established character for any of my stories. Gaming Universes are the best of boith worlds -- all the BG is there, as is the tone, all you need is some characters and a situation that fit into that universe.
Craig
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A story is worth a great deal, especially if it is your income. Anyone who has actually written and struggled through a true manuscript would NEVER say that a story is worth less than nothing, published or not.
I think the problem is that you misread that quote - I was talking about a fanfiction story, not the original story - naturally, that's worth exactly what was paid for it. The reason a fanfiction story is worth less than nothing is that you make no money off it, and also invest quite a bit of time and effort into it. If you understood me correctly, and stand by your statement, then I must feel very taken aback by your last comment - it implies a very ad hominem attack, which is to say that you're inferring I'm not an honest writer. I've been writing since I was able to put two words together, and I've put most of my life into it. Even if I am not a perfect writer by your standards, I've still put in the work, and I put more work into it every day. Perhaps I'm taking your statement the wrong way, but it didn't come off very nicely. Again, perhaps I'm in the wrong there.
As I said if you are using it in private to learn, great. If you are putting it out on the internet, which I consider to be the same as publishing you are "taking" the property of others. Perhaps someone with more law experience could address the internet issue as I'm certainly not an expert on it. I'm pretty sure that an e-book is copywrited the same as a paper manuscript?
An e-book would be something that you sell through a publisher, and therefore make money off of. No one sells e-books of their fanfiction. I'm not certain where people keep getting the idea that fanfic writers think they're able to sell their stuff, or that they think they're somehow better than the original author, but neither is true (except in extreme cases - and you can't judge an entire group by the fringes, for obvious reasons). Fanfic writers do not "publish" an e-book of their work. They usually put it on an archival site meant specifically for fanfiction, which means that someone out there is actually losing money on fanfiction by paying for the hosting costs. No one makes money off of fanfiction. Period.
As for the law issues, I've seen this debated many times. Fanfiction falls into a gray area in the law, not very well defined, if I'm correct. Most copyright lawyers and laws only bother with things that either make money off of someone else's ideas or somehow hurt what that person has already made, and fanfiction does neither. It is generally up to the author to say whether or not they like fanfiction because of this, and their wishes are supposed to be followed if they claim 'nay'. Authors who don't come out and state either way are generally assumed to not care about it. Perhaps that's wrong, but if they don't care enough to make a simple statement - anywhere, even on a blog or in a short email to ff.net - then people are going to assume it's all right.
I really appreciate the quote from BolshevikMuppet, with which I thoroughly agree. "The bad thing, however, is growing lazy and too accustomed to the simplicity that fanfiction writing provides us. I, for one, have trouble coming up with my own in-depth characters, as for so long I've just borrowed other people's." The challenge is to create those characters and do them well. Applause to BolshevikMuppet!
BolshevikMuppet was making a very balanced statement, which I also applaud, but you're taking this quote slightly out of context. "The challenge is to create those characters and do them well" - as in, this is the only challenge worth talking about? Learning to write well, creating a mood, learning to use diction correctly - these are not entirely worthless. I would like to add my own personal experiences, which are obviously only one person's case - I have no problems making original characters, and I mostly learned by writing fanfiction. And, as I already mentioned, not everyone writes fanfiction in preparation to be an author. Some people really just enjoy writing fanfiction as a hobby, and that should be all right - you can't demand that everyone in the world take writing as seriously as a published author. We do need people who are good at other things too. (Who do I get to fix my dishwasher? I don't do it. I wouldn't expect the repairman to edit my manuscripts for me either, but who knows whether he writes fanfiction in his free time or not?)
You've been ignoring many of my other comments, possibly just because you didn't have anything to say either way on them. I think one of the problems of this debate is that we haven't outlined what exactly we're debating. Fanfiction in general? Fanfiction when the writer has asked you not to write it? Most everyone here agrees that you shouldn't write fanfiction when the authors says not to. If they say you can, then, do you still feel I'm stealing their furniture?
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If you think it's not a copyright violation just because you're not getting paid for it, you're wrong. Write for your own amusement, fine, share it with a friend, fine, but publish it to the world at large, including via a free web site, not fine.
If you want to show the world at large what a nifty writer you are, instead of stealing some other writer's ideas and characters, write something original.
Oh. So it's stealing now? That's a more than extreme way to look at it. I'm not getting paid for it, so it isn't like I'm taking any money that would have gone to the original author. Hence; not stealing. At the beginning of every story/chapter I write I put a disclaimer. Openly declaring that the work to follow does not, in fact, belong to me. Further taking from the 'not stealing' argument and adding to the 'borrowing' argument.
Maybe I don't want to write some epic freaking novel? Maybe I just want to sit down at my computer and have some fun? Perhaps it's not about showing the world what a nifty writer I am but simply playing around with characters I already adore, and in the process honing my own writing skills if I ever do decide to take the so-called 'original' route?
~She-Wolf
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If you think it's not a copyright violation just because you're not getting paid for it, you're wrong. Write for your own amusement, fine, share it with a friend, fine, but publish it to the world at large, including via a free web site, not fine.
If you want to show the world at large what a nifty writer you are, instead of stealing some other writer's ideas and characters, write something original.
Oh. So it's stealing now? That's a more than extreme way to look at it. I'm not getting paid for it, so it isn't like I'm taking any money that would have gone to the original author. Hence; not stealing. At the beginning of every story/chapter I write I put a disclaimer. Openly declaring that the work to follow does not, in fact, belong to me. Further taking from the 'not stealing' argument and adding to the 'borrowing' argument.
Maybe I don't want to write some epic freaking novel? Maybe I just want to sit down at my computer and have some fun? Perhaps it's not about showing the world what a nifty writer I am but simply playing around with characters I already adore, and in the process honing my own writing skills if I ever do decide to take the so-called 'original' route?
Don't blame the messenger, but under copyright law it is indeed stealing. Most commercial publishers, including Jim Butcher's, have clauses in their contracts requiring the author to defend the infringement of copyright of their works, or the author can get sued by the publisher. That's why you'll never see Mr. Butcher hanging around any fic sites, or allowing anyone to upload possible plot ideas here. If he actually takes notice of any fanfic in the Dresdenverse, he would be legally required to fire up the lawyers and start sending out "cease and desist" letters, which can get kind of expensive. More trouble and expense than it's worth to start going after some penniless teenager, but still that's the fact. I seen to recall Iago had a thread about this around here somewhere.
Meanwhile, as I said, it's perfectly fine to write fanfic for your own amusement, for practice, or to share with friends for critique of your writing skills. It's also cool to write parody, and that's something you actually can publish (one of my favorites is Bored Of The Rings, by the staff of The Harvard Lampoon).
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To Firegazer, I apologize if my comments seemed judgmental, I did not intend them to be. After reading all of your comments and other postings, I am coming to realize that I am not understanding the communities created around these fanfic sites. I am 'hearing' you say that it is a place where you may share your ideas, that you do not make money from the sites and that it is a place where you can improve your craft.
It is my age that has a different spin on this. To me, anything posted on the internet is exposed and public, whereas I think you are seeing it as a smaller intimate community of friends.
From a strict legal sense, I think that Yeratel seems to be familiar with the legalities involved and I agree with those thoughts. I will stand wholeheartedly on his/her postings. Obiously no Nazi soldiers are battering down the doors to shut these sites down and I would hate to have that type of mentality ruling or controling the internet. If you wish to 'share' some of your work, e-mail me where I can locate them. I am always open to new ideas and to new understandings!
Best wishes again and as long as one is writing that is probably the best overall outcome anyway! Blaze certainly proved an interesting line of discussion with this topic. I suspect it will continue to be debated for years, even centuries to come. After all a lot of Shakespeare came from previous stories, history and myths!
Meg in IA
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Don't blame the messenger, but under copyright law it is indeed stealing. Most commercial publishers, including Jim Butcher's, have clauses in their contracts requiring the author to defend the infringement of copyright of their works, or the author can get sued by the publisher. That's why you'll never see Mr. Butcher hanging around any fic sites, or allowing anyone to upload possible plot ideas here. If he actually takes notice of any fanfic in the Dresdenverse, he would be legally required to fire up the lawyers and start sending out "cease and desist" letters, which can get kind of expensive. More trouble and expense than it's worth to start going after some penniless teenager, but still that's the fact. I seen to recall Iago had a thread about this around here somewhere.
Meanwhile, as I said, it's perfectly fine to write fanfic for your own amusement, for practice, or to share with friends for critique of your writing skills. It's also cool to write parody, and that's something you actually can publish (one of my favorites is Bored Of The Rings, by the staff of The Harvard Lampoon).
Why? That doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't it be the author's (the holder of the copyright) choice one what is or isn't a copyright violation of their work? Or at very least what they will or will not pursue? Especially in such a gray area as fanfic. In which it would be ridiculesly hard ass to go after said "violators".
Why would something like parody be okay when fanfic wouldn't? It seems parody does more damage to the original work than fanfic would. Fanfic could even bring new people into the fandom if the story is well written and somebody really likes it. That ends up giving more money to the copyright holder than parody, which could actively discourage people from giving their money to buy it.
~She-Wolf
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No, I don't, but I'm now damn tempted to write some. I just can't figure who. Thomas and someone. But who? Like......hmm. -Ponders.- Gimme a few days; I'll get back to ya. -wink-
;D -wink- Will be waiting -wink- PM me when you do!!
how'bout Thomas/any male on the SI staff/Marcone/Harry/Michael/anyone from Forever Knight and Bloodties
hows that for starters. -wink-
Just out of curiosity I went over to www.fanfiction.net to see what was out there from the Dresdenverse. There are 80 some odd (some very odd) Dresden files stories out there, most based on the characters as written in the TV show (evidently lots of Bob fans out there). In contrast, there are about a quarter of a million Harry Potter tales, which mostly seem to be concerned with who's snogging who.
Thanks for the link Yeratel - heading over there now.....
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In contrast, there are about a quarter of a million Harry Potter tales, which mostly seem to be concerned with who's snogging who.
Some of those are mine! But no snogging - I just wanted to write myself into the story. (Yes, I do Mary Sues. I don't care if it upsets people. Heck, one of my most popular stories over there is "Star Trek: The Mary Sue." (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2135575/1/))
First off, let me say, I absolutely abhor my writing. I think I suck massively. But sometimes a story gets stuck in my head and I have no choice but to write it to get it out. Sometimes it's an original story. Sometimes it's a fan fiction. For instance, I really, really, REALLY hate the relationship between X-Men characters Gambit and Rogue. I despise her because she's such trash and does nothing but whine. I think she's just about the worse character in all of Marveldom. So I wrote Betrayal & Rebirth (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1450284/1/) to give Gambit a woman worthy of him and to kill off that two bit tramp. (And to me she is a tramp. She throws herself at anything male - and I'm of the belief "If it quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, and looks like a duck, it sure ain't a quail!" Rogue looks like a tramp, acts like a tramp, talks like a tramp - therefore, she's a tramp. And I'm not so sure she's not one of the bad guys.)
Sometimes, I just can't help myself.
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I think the problem is that you misread that quote - I was talking about a fanfiction story, not the original story - naturally, that's worth exactly what was paid for it. The reason a fanfiction story is worth less than nothing is that you make no money off it, and also invest quite a bit of time and effort into it.
You're tangentially setting off a twitch of mine here, though I realise it's not the main point of your post.
Original fiction made available for free by published authors has been shown to be good for sales in the same way that libraries and second-hand bookstores are. Charlie Stross has talked about this working for him at length. So has Cory Doctorow. So have several writers associated with the whole Baen Universe thing. There are people out there who will provide hard numbers for you on how once you have some level of name recognition as a published author, making stuff available for free boosts that recognition in hard sales figures. "The original story being worth exactly what was paid for it" is in some cases provably wrong.
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Don't blame the messenger, but under copyright law it is indeed stealing. Most commercial publishers, including Jim Butcher's, have clauses in their contracts requiring the author to defend the infringement of copyright of their works, or the author can get sued by the publisher.
Actually, these days, copyright is very hard to lose period, and 'defending infringement of copyright' is only incredibly rarely the case. We have Disney to thank for that, probably, though I'd like to add that the Blackberry case was the most stupid and farfetched example of not defending copyright and still winning out in the end. I've been looking around to educate myself a bit more about the legal terms, in spite of my own ethical views on the matter, and have found that most fanfiction defenses try "Fair Use", though not all. The terms considered under fair use by a judge include, but are not limited to or absolutely required:
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
Unclear here. Fanfiction is not for profit, and it certainly isn't commercial, but saying it's educational would be pushing it unless you were asked to write a 'what happens next' English assignment.
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work
At my best understanding (and obviously, I can be wrong) this is usually more enforced with tangible products and designs than with 'ideas'. There have been some very stupid exceptions, most notably with the Blackberry case.
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
Fanfiction literally uses absolutely none of the original manuscript, except for names and places. If we're talking figuratively, someone's going to have to have fun legally defining it. I'm certainly not going to attempt it myself.
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
I couldn't tell you whether there's a professional study that's been done to gauge the effects of fanfiction on market value, but in every bit of my own personal experience, I must say that it can only be a positive thing for someone's works (as a whole, not a single, specified fanfic).
There are problems with the fair use defense, especially as fanfiction isn't all parody, and as most of it is not for any nonprofit organization or for schooling. But using a more ethical thought, instead of a legal one, fair use does seem to sum up exactly why we have copyright laws - the reasons behind their existence. Almost everything there leads me to believe that a court would absolve a peniless fanfiction writer under fair use. Again, I may be missing something, and again, people can always surprise you. We all know how wishy-washy the Supreme Court can be about free speech (or we should, if we took our government courses), and a detrimental ruling wouldn't necessarily surprise me if it ever reached them. I do know that lesser courts have ruled both in favor and against fanfiction, at times, but that the 'against' rulings have mostly been in very obviously stupid cases (such as, "I'm going to publish my sequel to this author's novel because mine is BETTER!" - yes, this was an actual case, and the stupid woman lost it, as she should have).
I'm afraid this is a very tenuous argument for my usual standards right now, but I'm currently exhausted and sunburned, and I haven't had near enough time to get you some links and citations, etc. I'd appreciate if you'd gently correct any glaring errors that you catch, and respond as best you can.
To Firegazer, I apologize if my comments seemed judgmental, I did not intend them to be. After reading all of your comments and other postings, I am coming to realize that I am not understanding the communities created around these fanfic sites. I am 'hearing' you say that it is a place where you may share your ideas, that you do not make money from the sites and that it is a place where you can improve your craft.
Oh, I'm almost certain that I overreacted, reading it back over again, and I'll sheepishly apologize for that. It's a very strange thing to be having a polite debate about this after so long, and I honestly appreciate it. I'd absolutely be willing to keep talking with you about things outside here, so I can stop taking up everyone's venting space. :)
There are people out there who will provide hard numbers for you on how once you have some level of name recognition as a published author, making stuff available for free boosts that recognition in hard sales figures. "The original story being worth exactly what was paid for it" is in some cases provably wrong.
I actually did not know that at all! I find it very interesting and somewhat heartening, in fact. Thanks for sharing it!
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Why? That doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't it be the author's (the holder of the copyright) choice one what is or isn't a copyright violation of their work? Or at very least what they will or will not pursue? Especially in such a gray area as fanfic. In which it would be ridiculesly hard ass to go after said "violators".
Why would something like parody be okay when fanfic wouldn't? It seems parody does more damage to the original work than fanfic would. Fanfic could even bring new people into the fandom if the story is well written and somebody really likes it. That ends up giving more money to the copyright holder than parody, which could actively discourage people from giving their money to buy it.
~She-Wolf
Parody and satire are protected as free speech. You can write a parody Harry Dresden story, you just can't call your character "Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden", you'd have to make him something like "Barry Barnum Bozo Munich". Somebody else's characters are their characters, and some authors are more picky than others as to how much effort they're willing to put in to stomp out infringement.
I found the original thread related to this subject in the Site Suggestions board in the post explaining why there is not now and never will be a fan fiction area on Jim-Butcher.com. I notice you are the same person who was making these same arguments last year. Nothing has changed on the legal copyright front since then.
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Original fiction made available for free by published authors has been shown to be good for sales in the same way that libraries and second-hand bookstores are. Charlie Stross has talked about this working for him at length. So has Cory Doctorow. So have several writers associated with the whole Baen Universe thing. There are people out there who will provide hard numbers for you on how once you have some level of name recognition as a published author, making stuff available for free boosts that recognition in hard sales figures. "The original story being worth exactly what was paid for it" is in some cases provably wrong.
Baen has been really ahead of the curve by putting so many of their older books, particularly earlier books in a series that are out of print, out on their website for free downloads.
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I notice you are the same person who was making these same arguments last year. Nothing has changed on the legal copyright front since then.
Nor have my opinions on the subject changed since then.
~She-Wolf
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I mentioned this a few pages back, and will again here. For the most part fanfiction isn't really a bad thing (granted, a lot of the stories are bad, but that's not the point I'm going for here) and it seems that most of the copyright holders aren't that bothered. There are a couple of exceptions, and they generally have to do with people profiting over said fanfics.
This "Another Hope" business is a great example (thanks for posting the link!). Lucasfilm generally ignores (Hell, Lucas himself has been known to encourage) fanfics. It's all well and good, until someone starts charging money for them. Incidentally, there's a huge discussion on that aspect of fanfics relating to "Another Hope"...I'd encourage people to start looking it up on Google...well worth the time.
Most fanfics are allowed or at least generally ignored. There are exceptions. Again, I have issues when people go after the authors, as in the Anne McCaffrey case I mentioned a few pages back. As I said then, I don't have all the details. What apparently happened (most of this probably isn't available for legal reasons) is someone wrote a fanfic, I believe set in the Pern universe, that mirrored something that came out shortly thereafter in one of McCaffrey's novels. The fanfic writer then attempted to take legal action against McCaffrey for "stealing their story". As this was, most likely, a "what comes next" story I'd chalk it up to coincidence. As a result of the fallout, I do know that Anne McCaffrey now actively goes after anyone who puts their fanfics based on her work out where they can be seen!
I equally have problems with people posting things as their own copyright. The other situation I mentioned involved a woman writing Harry Potter fanfics. I read this story in a newspaper a few years back (can't remember where, with some digging you can most likely Google it if you're really interested). She posted a bunch of these things to her website, and each story started with a note saying that all characters and situations were the sole trademark and copyright of her...and she didn't actually create any new characters...just used the existing ones! In her case it was Warner Brothers who went after her, and with good reason. Consider how much they paid for those rights! Even if you aren't making money off of it (this woman wasn't), claiming ownership of someone else's work is just wrong.
While I don't know the story behind it, it seems that Anne Rice is also quite adamant that people not write fanfics based on her works...
Again I don't have a problem with fanfics per se...there is an established community out there. The problems occur when people abuse it. That abuse comes very close to people who try to sue the creators of a successful franchise when they see the money is there (A gentleman tried to sue George Lucas back in the eighties, claiming he created the Ewoks in a script he sent to Lucas...wanted all profits from Return of the Jedi as a result...and then there's the woman who occasionally claims she created The Matrix). Sadly, I think most people in that situation would have to take a "once bitten, twice shy" approach and come down hard on fanfic writers.
Let's face it...it only takes one person to ruin something for the rest of the world.
Keith
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I've been pretty quiet on this thread, other than my initial response.
I respect that some authors *really* don't want their character's co-opted for any reason. And I do honestly respect their wishes. PN Elrod, for one, has issues with it. They may be legal, they may be personal - doesn't matter to me. I wrote *one* fanfic for her series and, because of her wishes, it has never been seen by anyone but me. I wouldn't dream of putting it anywhere where anyone could see it. It doesn't matter to me, the joy was in the writing and I don't particularly care that I can't show it to anyone.
I find it a particularly bizarre turn that a fanfic author would attempt to sue an author over a fanfic story. I don't doubt that it's happened and I don't think that Anne McCaffery was the only victim. Personally, I don't care if a story I wrote (I write fic for Stargate SG-1) showed up verbatim on the show or in one of the tie-in novels. I wouldn't dream of bringing suit.
I have no delusions of any kind of ownership. Even if another fan took one of my stories and twisted it all out of shape, I don't feel I have any right to bitch. I might not be thrilled, but I'd get over it. And hell, I might even be flattered!
Fanfic itself is sort of a legal gray area. The best I can do is respect the creator's wishes, if they make them known. Most, though not all, fannish franchises sort of recognize that it doesn't diminish their stake so much as add value to it for fans. For legal reasons, they can't openly condone it, but many will not pursue legal remedies, either, unless someone gets really in their face about it. Most of us know better than that.
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my mom calls fic's copyright infringement when i did writing. but i HAVE done ALOT of writing, tho most of ym stories on FF.net are drabbles/oneshots. i have a bad problem with multi-chap stories. theres 2 stories i wrote years ago in 2 folders that id LOVE to publish on FF.net.
ive also come up with a lot of good idea have DIED in my head because i dont get a chance to write them. my most recent ideas are fir the Sookie STackhouse series, and 2 thomas/Justine fics for the Dresden series.
in anycase, i think fics are a good way for aspiring writers to get started. i mean, half the creative proccess is started (Characters and base-storyline/universe) your just borrowing them, to play with and make your own things happen, then at the end returning them to the shelf just the way they were.
i myself only read storyis that are IN character and with canon-pairings, and thats how i write. i also have problems with stories that go directly against canon (AU) tho ive read a few and even written one, for the most part if something happens in a series, it sticks with me.
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ive also come up with a lot of good idea have DIED in my head because i dont get a chance to write them. my most recent ideas are fir the Sookie STackhouse series, and 2 thomas/Justine fics for the Dresden series.
Um, best not to mention TDF fanfiction here, since Jim's lawyers have kind of put the kibosh on this sort of thing...
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ooh =/
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ooh =/
Hey, it's okay, you didn't know any better. :: Gives a hard look in the general direction of the board's answer to Morgan::
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I find fanfiction to be a useful tool in fleshing out and even in generating characters. My 'Angels of the Night' characters all have their roots in some fanfic I was planning out but never wrote. I use fic as a tool to help me work on my writing in a familiar, preexisting setting. I take what I've learned writing that and apply it to my original works.
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the only thing i never condone is when people take the characters and "reinvent" them, making them fall in love with characters they normally wouldnt look at in that way (IE: slash), or do things that they would never do.
it's one thing to change one detail in the plot to create an AU, but reinvention i believe is strictly theft, even IF you include a disclaimer.