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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Cadd on May 15, 2013, 10:59:57 PM

Title: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Cadd on May 15, 2013, 10:59:57 PM

Is it possible to be implicitly invited into a home and thus be able to pass the threshold unaffected, without the presence of a resident?

The idea is this - a WCV works as a superintendent for a number of apartment buildings. He thus of course have access to keys to the flats. If a tenant has asked for something to be fixed, and that isn't yet done, would that work as a sort of "standing invitation" so he wouldn't need to be actually invited in to enter the apartment?
Or is an invitation always a then-and-there, face-to-face thing?

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: PatchR on May 15, 2013, 11:10:11 PM

Related to this topic:

Does someone who runs a business out of their home have a weakened threshold because of this?

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Taran on May 15, 2013, 11:38:49 PM

@Cadd:

I don't remember which book it was.  The one where the Murphy's partner is wracked by the mental whammy.  She asks if Harry can come and have a look.

So even though he's been asked to come (standing invitation), he specifically asks for the Homeowner to invite him in. (implicit).

Not sure if that is a solid example, though, since it was Murphy who asked Harry to come and not the Homeowner.  Presumably, she knew Harry was coming?

@PatchR: For a business in the home?  I'd say no.  During business hours since "everyone is welcome" at that time people can come and go unhindered.  The "OPEN" sign is basically an invitation from the Homeowner.  When the store is closed, there needs to be a specific invitation.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: narphoenix on May 15, 2013, 11:40:29 PM

Not exactly, Taran. In GS, Morty's threshold is specifically mentioned to be weak because he runs his business out of it, even though the "store" wasn't open at the time.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Taran on May 15, 2013, 11:49:32 PM

Quote from: narphoenix on May 15, 2013, 11:40:29 PM

Not exactly, Taran. In GS, Morty's threshold is specifically mentioned to be weak because he runs his business out of it, even though the "store" wasn't open at the time.

Aha.  I guess just use the modifiers they have in the book.  Also, if that's the case, I'd say the kind of business you run would affect how much the threshold drops.  If you're business is "unwholesome", for instance.  Like the difference between having a porn shop as a business or a Christian or Childrens books Store.  :P

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Tedronai on May 16, 2013, 12:20:36 AM

In several instances, iirc, there are what would be reasonably strong 'implicit' invitations to an individual's home (Murphy's is the most common that I can recall: opening the door for an expected visitor, then stepping aside so as to allow them entry while neglecting to explicitly invite them through) that are nevertheless pointed out to not suffice to pass the threshold without effect (and are used in this manner specifically to weaken any supernatural threat the visitor might pose).
In Ghost Story, for instance, when Murphy meets with the WCV in her home.  (pretty sure that's not any meaningful spoiler;  I'll add tags if I'm asked to, though)


I think any unwholesomeness happening in the home would affect the threshold, or not, entirely independantly from association with a business.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: vonpenguin on May 16, 2013, 01:23:02 AM

I recall in grave peril, while Harry does require an invite from an actual resident (Murphy doesn't count) he does state that the fact that cops and emts have been going in and out so much that the threshold is torn to heck at the moment. I would say that while a mortal can pass through a threshold without bothering them, it does hurt the threshold. A church has a strong threshold because it isn't a business to the people who go there, it is a sort of second home.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: ReaderAt2046 on May 16, 2013, 02:12:47 AM

Related question: I have been working on the idea of a full Christian fae, and I was thinking that he should be able to enter any church without being effected by its threshold, since as a Christian he sort of by definition is invited into churches.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Taran on May 16, 2013, 02:24:13 AM

That seems reasonable considering Angels aren't hampered by a churches threshold.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 16, 2013, 05:09:52 AM

Eh, I don't think most churches have an "all Christians welcome" policy. They probably all have an "all angels welcome" policy though.

So I wouldn't normally let a Christian fey ignore church thresholds, even if angels can.

That being said, I imagine there's a standing invitation for every church service.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: vonpenguin on May 16, 2013, 05:32:31 AM

I don't know. Most churches will allow people into the main "church" part to pray at most times of the day. I imagine you'd need an invitation to go into the offices and priests rooms, possibly even the confessional though.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Cadd on May 16, 2013, 09:22:35 AM

Thanks everyone for the input! Much helped :D

Quote from: Taran on May 15, 2013, 11:38:49 PM

@Cadd:

I don't remember which book it was.  The one where the Murphy's partner is wracked by the mental whammy.  She asks if Harry can come and have a look.

So even though he's been asked to come (standing invitation), he specifically asks for the Homeowner to invite him in. (implicit).

Not sure if that is a solid example, though, since it was Murphy who asked Harry to come and not the Homeowner.  Presumably, she knew Harry was coming?

That wouldn't count as an invitation, because as you said, it was Murphy who gave the standing "invitation", not someone living there...



Gestures work, definitely. If I as a resident steps aside from the door and gestures to come in, that's an invitation. If I just stand there "challengingly", it of course isn't. What I'm thinking is basically Murphy calling Harry saying "go over to my place and get in, I'll be there in an hour".

Come to think of it, in Dead Beat, Harry has no problem with Murphy's threshold as he's been asked to take care of her house (plants etc), right? So that would be a point for standing invitation from a resident working...

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Wordmaker on May 16, 2013, 11:25:14 AM

I think standing invitations do work, but I rule that there has to be an explicit invitation, either verbal or written. So, stepping aside doesn't count as an invitation, but asking someone to check on your plants for a certain period of time or sign over the door saying "enter all ye faithful" would be okay.

The only grey area I'd have to this is if someone is physically brought across a threshold against their will or without their knowledge. What happens if you knock out a vampire and carry them into a church?

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Tedronai on May 16, 2013, 05:07:07 PM

Forcibly carrying an individual across a threshold can mean nothing short of your indication that you wish them to cross that threshold.  If you are a member of the household imbued with the authority to offer invitations, then you have inherently invited them.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: OwleIsohos on May 16, 2013, 05:29:55 PM

What if you're not a member of the household, though?

I would think that forcibly carrying an individual across a threshold in that circumstance would have the same effect as if the individual were trying to cross that threshold.  In the case of things that can't cross thresholds without an invitation, you wouldn't be able to carry them across no matter how hard you tried.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Tedronai on May 16, 2013, 05:56:25 PM

Largely, I agree.  Depending on the case, I might also impose the threshold as armour against the attempt to move someone strongly affected by thresholds (but not so strongly as a ghost or being of pure spirit).

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Troy on May 16, 2013, 07:36:38 PM

In Summer Knight, Harry doesn't enter Murphy's house until he is explicitly invited and even then he feels the tug as he enters, leaving some of his power at the door. It makes him uncomfortable.

In all the iterations of this concept it seems like the person has to express an actual invite, even if it's just causal conversation. It's like the vampire shows up at your door and you don't know he's a vampire. You chit-chat in the doorway for a bit before realizing your manners have slipped and blurt out, "Come on in. I'll make some coffee." Stuff like that.

I get suspicious of people who say things like: "Aren't you going to invite me in?" or "If we can go inside, I can tell/show you more..." Things like that. It's like what are you getting at? Why do you want to come inside?

In mundane areas... it's like police can't enter your home without warrant, but if you invite them in, it's the same as if they had warrant, you know?

Also, the permission to enter can be implied if the supernatural beastie says, "Can I come in?" And you simply nod or step aside to grant them entry. That's like an implied explicitness (an oxymoron, I know!), but you know what I mean? Had the supernatural not asked, then the context would be different and it would not be an invitation. Like, I stand aside and the beastie just stands there staring at me until I say, "Well? Aren't you going to come in?" And then, you see, it becomes and invite.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Tedronai on May 16, 2013, 07:40:44 PM

Quote from: Troy on May 16, 2013, 07:36:38 PM

Also, the permission to enter can be implied if the supernatural beastie says, "Can I come in?" And you simply nod or step aside to grant them entry. That's like an implied explicitness (an oxymoron, I know!), but you know what I mean? Had the supernatural not asked, then the context would be different and it would not be an invitation.

As I mentioned, this is actually something that happens in the novels for the express purpose of NOT 'deactivating' the threshold for that individual.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Troy on May 16, 2013, 07:50:17 PM

Quote from: Tedronai on May 16, 2013, 07:40:44 PM

As I mentioned, this is actually something that happens in the novels for the express purpose of NOT 'deactivating' the threshold for that individual.

Maybe that's what happens to Harry in Summer Knight, then... because Murphy is a bit frazzled from her encounter with Kravos and stuff in the previous story. Maybe he asks to come in and she just meekly nods and that's why he feels his power leave him at the door...

Awesome. Thanks for pointing that out. I must not have read too deeply into your original reply. Sorry about that.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: OwleIsohos on May 16, 2013, 07:52:03 PM

Quote from: Tedronai on May 16, 2013, 07:40:44 PM

As I mentioned, this is actually something that happens in the novels for the express purpose of NOT 'deactivating' the threshold for that individual.

In that instance, though, doesn't the homeowner say something to the effect of "I'm not inviting you in" before stepping aside?  Making it explicitly clear that no invitation has been issued?

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Tedronai on May 16, 2013, 08:45:20 PM

In one instance, I believe that is the case, but I do not believe that all such instances in the novels (and there are several) have such a statement.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Taran on May 16, 2013, 09:15:31 PM

I also assume you can revoke invitations.  I invited you in, but now you're not welcome.

Although, I don't think this could be used as a trap...

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Troy on May 16, 2013, 09:32:43 PM

On Sci-Fi Channel's Being Human they use the uninvitation to great affect. :)

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: DMS on May 18, 2013, 01:30:05 AM

See also: Buffy.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Taran on May 18, 2013, 01:35:25 AM

Quote from: DMS on May 18, 2013, 01:30:05 AM

See also: Buffy.

Yeah, this is how I saw thresholds...that being couldn't physically pass them without an invite.  Invites had to be revoked...but I don't remember what would happen if you revoked one while they were within the threshold.  I think you were pretty much screwed once they got in.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: vonpenguin on May 18, 2013, 06:15:30 AM

The thing to remember is that in Dresden the reason that vamps and such can't cross thresholds isn't that they are physically incapable it's that without an invite they leave behind a huge chunk of their power, and most of their power is already tied up in keeping them ambulatory/corporeal/on this plain of existence and they wouldn't be able to function once they did. 

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Wordmaker on May 18, 2013, 08:17:17 AM

Yeah, the closer a creature is to human, the less of itself gets left behind. Demons, ghosts and spirits, with no mortal shell, simply can't get through a threshold. Vampires, Denarians, and wizards can, but they leave their power at the door.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Tedronai on May 18, 2013, 02:39:44 PM

Quote from: Wordmaker on May 18, 2013, 08:17:17 AM

Vampires [...] can, but they leave their power at the door.

Except BCVs, who have large amounts of power tied up in animating a corpse.  And maybe RCVs, who are properly demons of the near Nevernever.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Wordmaker on May 18, 2013, 02:56:33 PM

That's a point.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: Mrmdubois on May 31, 2013, 07:26:37 AM

(click to show/hide)

And of course now it turns out Fae can enter no problem whenever they want as long as they mean the residents no harm.  It's a lot less likely with the more malevolent entities out there that they'll mean no harm, but it's theoretically possible they could freely enter as well.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: vonpenguin on May 31, 2013, 12:40:05 PM

(click to show/hide)

Unlikely as Harry can not even enter a close friend's home without an invite and the only time he ever did so while meaning the occupants anything even close to harm would be when he stole back Bob. Granted Mortals have that whole conflicted thing where he might still be holding a tiny bit of a grudge that they stuck him with the bill last time they went to burger king or something but I'm kinda going to lean towards Fae being a special case.

Title: Re: Invitation to pass a threshold - explicit or implicit?
Post by: knnn on May 31, 2013, 03:59:21 PM

Remember also that in GS,

(click to show/hide)

Molly is able to enter Murphy's house under a veil without specifically being invited in.