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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Hick Jr on December 21, 2012, 04:27:27 AM

Title: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 21, 2012, 04:27:27 AM
Hi. Long time lurker, first time poster.

So i'm running a DFRPG game, and as a holiday thing, I run a high powered one-shot thing involving a couple of custom characters and Patrick MacGowan, the really, really dark version of the Yule Emissary (He's Santa's Helper, but Frank Miller-ized). The players loved it, and want to do a campaign based on them. So I brought out the old characters and some new stuff, and immediately ran into problems. Because it was a one shot, i played fast and loose with some of the character creation rules. I almost certainly messed up with Stunts and Refinement. Also, it was at a custom power level (30 refresh and about 50-60 skill points), which i justified with the fact that all the players were Emissaries of very, very powerful beings. So I'm posting them here to get help from more experienced character creators. Patrick can be found http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23084.msg991664.html#msg991664 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23084.msg991664.html#msg991664) there. The others should be in the following posts. They're sans backstory- i leave that up to the players, generally. Their aspects are mostly placeholders.

The campaign starter (i'm still frantically writing the rest) is that there's a bar. It's not a popular bar, for a lot of reasons, the most notable of which is that it's where the Emissaries of Power drink. Heavily, usually. Really heavily in Patrick's case. They drink to forget the awful things they've done in the names of terrible beings, and they complain to each other about their bosses. When the following characters are drinking in the bar (Presume at least a few of them have met, we're going to hammer this out in the Guest Star phase), it's attacked by agents of a rival Sponsor, specifically a Dragon, by the name of Glauriax. His agent (Ancalagon, stats on him later) and several Fomor agents blow up the bar. While most of it's patrons are too unconscious or too dead to protest, he strips a large chunk of power off their mantles. This is Glauriax's plan- Rob immortals of their power via their Emissaries. The Emissaries (Or the Inglorious Bastards as they eventually call themselves) go after the draconic wizard, the Fomor, and, best of all, a Dragon.

Consider the fact that you capitalize the word "Dragon" for the same reason that you capitalize the word "God", and you realize why this is a high-powered campaign.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 21, 2012, 04:29:25 AM
Name:
Doctor Ebenezar “Rex” Walton
High Concept:
Ferrovax’s Emissary
Trouble:
“Tyrant Lizard”
Other:
I’m Not Indiana Jones; But I Totally Am; Damn All Dragons; Paleontology Specialist; For Science!; “It Belongs In A Museum”

Skills:
Human Form:
Fantastic: Scholarship, Lore
Superb: Contacts, Resources, Burglary
Great: Athletics, Alertness, Driving, Endurance, Presence, Conviction
Good: Survival, Guns, Weapons,  Rapport, Intimidation, Stealth, Discipline


Most others default to Fair or Average.

Tyrannosaur Form:
Fantastic: Fists, Might, Endurance
Superb: Intimidation, Athletics, Survival, Alertness
Assume most others default to Mediocre or even Poor.

Velociraptor Form:
Fantastic: Athletics, Survival, Stealth
Superb: Alertness, Endurance, Intimidation, Fists
All others default to Mediocre.

Share these skills with Pterodactyl form.

Stunts
I Know Just The Guy (Contacts)
Footwork (Fists)
Martial Artist (Fists)
Lethal Weapon (Fists)
Scientist(Archaeology, Paleontology)
Hunter (Survival)

Powers
Marked By Power [-1] (Ferrovax)
Echoes of the Beast [-1] (Reptiles)
True Shapeshifting [-4] (Dinosaurs Only)
Modular Abilities [-18] (16 form points)
“Rote” Forms
Tyrannosaurus Rex
For when you absolutely, positively, have to leave nobody alive.
Hulking Size [-2]
Claws [-1]
Mythic Strength [-6]
Mythic Toughness [-6]
Supernatural Sense [-3] (Broad Senses- mostly physical)

Weapon:9 attacks are no joke, and this is basically unkillable. Flee. Flee in terror.

Velociraptor
Rex is a big Jurassic Park fan.
Claws [-1]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
Pack Instincts [-1]
Spider Walk [-1]

Pterodactyl Form
Cheaper than the bus.
Claws [-1]
Wings [-1]
Supernatural Speed [-4]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Hulking Size? [-2] (About the size of a minivan or Tahoe)


Total Cost: -26 Refresh
Fate Points: 4

Stress
Physical: 0000(000000) + 2 additional mild consequences
Mental: 0000
Social: 0000
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 21, 2012, 04:31:28 AM
Name:
Siodhachan O'Suilleabhain (Atticus O’Sullivan)
High Concept:
Celtic Druid
Trouble:
Last of My Kind
Other:
Captain Planet; Ecoterrorist; Bloody Witches; “Never Tell Me The Odds”; The Earth Is Clingy

Skills:
Superb: Lore, Guns, Survival, Endurance
Great: Discipline ,Weapons , Empathy, Investigation, Conviction, Athletics
Good: Scholarship, Might, Presence, Performance, Craftsmanship, Deceit, Rapport
Most others default to Fair or Average.

Stunts:
I Have Lived History (Scholarship): You know the history of the world very well because you were around for most of it. Add two to your Scholarship skill when using it for knowledge of the past.
Power Attack (Weapons): You put all your strength into an attack, increasing power at the expense of precision. You may take a -1 penalty to an attack roll before rolling to increase the stress inflicted by that attack by 3.
Precision Strike: You know where to hit, and how to make it count. When you successfully perform a maneuver with your Weapons skill, the resulting aspect is automatically sticky. In addition, the difficulty of any attempt to remove the resulting aspect is increased by two.

Powers:
Marked By Power [-1] (The Earth/Gaea)
Wizard’s Constitution [-0]
Item of Power: Fragarach The Answerer [-3]
Human Form [+2] (Can only be used when bare feet touching earth/ground)
   Nature Magic [-4]
   Supernatural Strength [-4]
   Inhuman Speed [-2]
   Supernatural Recovery [-4]
   The Sight [-1]
   Refinement [-5]

Total Refresh Cost: -24 Refresh
Fate Points: 6

Focus Items
Binding Tattoos (+5 Nature Offensive Power, +5 Nature Defensive Power)

Fragarach The Answerer [-3]
Armor-Piercer [-2]: Ignores all mundane and supernatural armor effects.
[-0] It Is What It Is. Fragarach is an excellent sword. Weapon 3.
[+2] One-Time Discount. Fragarach is a full-sized sword and therefore quite noticeable.
[-2] Channelling (Air).Fragarach controls the winds.
[-1] Invisible Edge. The wielder of Fragarach may use Weapons in place of Discipline to control spells cast with its Channelling power.
[-1] The Answerer. If the wielder pushes Fragarach against the throat or body of an enemy and speaks the magic word, that enemy cannot make Deceit checks or lie. It must answer any question asked of it, but this effect can be opposed by a Discipline check against Epic difficulty.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 21, 2012, 04:34:43 AM
Name:
Scarlet Zuigiber

High Concept
Incarnation of War

Trouble
My Boss Is A Bastard

Other
CalArts Represent!; The Red Sword; “Come And See”; Art Student; Actually Very Nice; Hippie Parents; Squire of the Apocalypse

Skills
Fantastic: Weapons, Guns
Superb: Craftsmanship, Endurance, Fists
Great:Athletics, Might, Lore, Scholarship, Performance
Good: Resources, Intimidation, Contacts, Deceit, Alertness, Presence
Most others default to Fair or Average.

Stunts
Killer of Many: You have killed a lot of people, but not so many monsters. All of your attacks with Guns inflict two additional stress to Pure Mortals. This stunt may be excessively broad in a game with an unusually high number of mortals, so GM discretion is advised. (A similar stunt could exist in Fists or in Weapons.)
Playing To Expectations: Being a good actor requires being a good liar. You may use your Performance skill for the Falsehood & Deception trapping of the Deceit skill.
Artist: You are an artist, obviously. Pick a genre and a medium. Add one to your Performance skill when dealing with something that is part of either your chosen medium or your chosen genre, and add two to your Performance skill when dealing with something that is part of both your chosen genre and your chosen medium.
Master Of Factoids: You know a lot of little things that have an odd way of coming in handy. Add two to your Scholarship skill when using it to Declare Minor Details.
Wall of Death (Weapons)
Weapon Specialization: You know how to attack effectively with a specific type of weapon. Choose a type of weapon. Your attacks with that type of weapon inflict two additional stress. (Swords)

Powers
Marked By Power [-1] (War)
Sponsored Magic [-4] (Transcendent Swordsmanship/War)
Item of Power: The Red Sword [-12]
Refinement [-6]

Total Refresh Cost: -25
Fate Points: 5

Focus Items
The Red Sword (TS Offensive Power +5; TS Offensive Control +5)

Enchanted Items
The Golden Cloak of War (Acts as Armor:4) [4 Enchanted Item Slots]

The Red Sword of War [-13]
Note- This is a representation of the Sword with reduced power. IF it ever returns to full strength, the Incite becomes Weapon:6, and the Strength and Toughness upgrade to Mythic.
Purpose [-0] (Put simply, to create strife. Acts as a compel on the relevant aspect)
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch [+3] is True Peace.
Incite Emotion [-4] (Wrath/Strife, At Range, Lasting Emotion, Potent Emotion)
Emotional Vampire [-1] (Wrath/Strife)
Armageddon [-3] All things must fear the wrath of War. Gain a point of sponsor debt or spend 2 FP and satisfy the Catch, even if it is nonexistant, for any Toughness a creature can posess.
Wrathful Destruction [-1] The sword becomes far more powerful when wielded in anger. When the wielder strikes with intent to kill, or strikes with rage, the blade is Weapon:5.


Transcendent Swordsmanship can be found in the master Sponsored Magic list, but i'll repost it here-
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 21, 2012, 04:48:38 AM
Name:
Sir Mordred Malebranche of the Round Table

High Concept:
The Dark Hunter

Trouble:
I Used To Go Bump In The Night

Other:
Razorgloom
Raised By Goblins;
Give Me My Bloody Spells Back
“You Are The Brute Squad”
Daddy Erlköenig
Arthur’s Bane
“Name’s Captain Reynolds, Ma’am”

Skills:
Fantastic: Conviction,Discipline
Superb:, Weapons, Intimidation, Lore
Great: Athletics, Guns, Lore, Stealth, Survival
Good: Alertness, Endurance, Survival, Presence,
Fair: Contacts, Deceit, Fists, Resources, Driving,
Average: Burglary, Empathy, Performance , Rapport , Scholarship,

Stunts:
Hunter (Survival)
Inexhaustible Power: You always have a bit more juice to draw upon. You may take two additional mild mental consequences when facing the stress incurred from using Evocation.*


Powers:
Incite Emotion (Fear/Dread) [-3] (At Range, Lasting Emotion)
Emotional Vampire [-1]
Feeding Dependency [+1], affecting
Supernatural Strength [-2]
Supernatural Speed [-2]
Supernatural Recovery [-2]
           Marked By Power [-1]
Wyld Magic [-4]
Refinements [-6]
Glamours [-2]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch is Silver and holy objects [+3]
Item of Power: Razorgloom [-1]

Total: -28 Refresh
Fate Points: 2

Focus Items:
Bracer of the Hunt, Right [+4 Offensive Power, +3 Offensive Control with Wyld]
Bracer of the Hunt, Left  [+2 Defensive Power, +2 Defensive Control with Wyld]

Enchanted Items:
Replica Browncoat [Acts as Armor:4] [2 Item Slots]

Stress:
Mental: OOOO
Physical: OOOO(OO)
Social: OOOO
Hunger:OOOO + 2 additional mild consequences (?)
Armor: 1, or by spell or item effect.

Rotes

Balefire Blast
Type: Wyld Evocation, Attack
Shifts: 9-10
Control: Rote, requires foci
Target: One target in LOS, physical stress
Duration: 1 action
Opposed by: Target Athletics, magical Block, other skill as determined in play
Effect: Weapon:9 and Legendary+1 (+9) Aim and Attack on a single target, or a 7 shift attack (Weapon 7)if used on a zone, which requires gaining a point of sponsor debt. (sounds like a blaster from star wars!)

Shadow Manipulation
Type: Wyld Evocation, Offensive Maneuver
Shifts: 8
Control: Rote
Target: 1 zone.
Duration: 5 Exchanges, varies
Opposed by: Varies
Effect: Places an aspect involving Darkness or Corporeal Shadows on the zone.

The Dark Hunt
Type: Wyld Ritual/Evothaum, divination
Complexity: 8, but varies according to Investigation/Survival difficulty
Duration: About a scene
Effect: Caster tracks target. Alter power depending on whether target is behind wards/threshold, or to increase duration. Does require a basic symbolic link. Alternatively, gain on use of Pyschometry to assess a scene or object.


Shadeguard
Type: Wyld Evocation, Block
Shifts: 8-10
Control: Rote (requires foci)
Duration: Varies, usually 1-3 exchanges
Effect: Creates an 8-shift block or Armor:4. Or creates an 5 shift block for 3 exchanges, or Armor:4 for the same amount of time. Can become much stronger with sponsor debt.

Sightblinder (enshaedn)
Type: Wyld Evocation,Defensive  Block, Veil
Shifts: 6-8
Control: Rote
Duration: Varies
Effect: When he doesn’t care to use the Veils granted by Glamours or simply needs a stronger one, this evocation draws up shadow into a veil of invisibility and undetectability around him. More shifts can be devoted to increase duration from one exchange.

Razorgloom(Laevateinn) [-1]
Razorgloom is the Sword of Wyld’s Shadow- The Dark Hunter’s equivalent to the Sword of Summer’s Flame or the Sword of Winter’s Frost. It carries these abilities-

Purpose [-0] Razorgloom’s true purpose is the killing of Faeries. Take a -2 to any Rapport or Empathy check when dealing with the Sidhe as the sword empathically urges you to kill them. It will refuse to function for any Sidhe who does not work without the sanction of the Erlking.  It also enjoys destroying lights.

All Creatures Are Prey [-1] Razorgloom was forged not to defend, or retaliate, or even to kill- It was made to destroy, and it excels in it’s task. It ignores all mundane armor effects and reduces the level of Toughness of any creature by one (Supernatural becomes Inhuman, Inhuman vanishes)

Shadow-Sharpened [-1] Razorgloom is one of  the sharpest things in the world- It was sharpened on, in order, wool, velvet, silk, wind, sunlight, a whisper, a breath, and a smile. In light, it acts as a Weapon:2 katana. In shadow or darkness, it is Weapon:4.

Mageslayer [-1]  Razorgloom was made to kill Sidhe, masters of magic. The svartalves who forged it took this into account, and enchanted it similarly to a Warden’s sword- it acts as an Epic (+7) counterspell and can be used to parry magic. Use Weapons as a defense against spells.

One Time Discount [+2] Hiding a full-sized katana is tricksy.

Unbreakable [-0] Razorgloom cannot be broken or destroyed except in a specific ritual involving Summer’s light and soulfire.


Wyld Magic has been reposted here for simplicity, but can be found on the master Sponsored Magic list
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 21, 2012, 04:55:41 AM
That's it for now on the characters, so post away. I'll have Ancalagon and his Bruiser-Flunkies done tomorrow or later tonight, and i'll start work on the Fomor over the weekend.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 21, 2012, 07:07:14 AM
So, I'm a little unclear, do you want these balanced, powered down, both, or what?

I mean, I, at least, can certainly do that to some degree...but I'm gonna need some guidelines for what I'm aiming for.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Haru on December 21, 2012, 02:18:19 PM
One thing I see is, that most of those refresh costs are wrong.
Ebenezar has 30 spent
O'Suilleabhain has 25 spent
Scarlet has 29 spent
Mordred has 30 spent

I believe at some points you haven't counted the stunts in.

Other than that, I can't really say that much. I don't really like high power games like that. There is a point where people have too much refresh and just take powers because they still have points to spend. If everyone has supernatural toughness and strength, that basically means nobody has it. I guess it would be easier if you tone it down to a 12 or maybe 15 refresh game, that would still be high power, but easier to handle.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: JDK002 on December 21, 2012, 02:59:11 PM
One thing I see is, that most of those refresh costs are wrong.
Ebenezar has 30 spent
O'Suilleabhain has 25 spent
Scarlet has 29 spent
Mordred has 30 spent

I believe at some points you haven't counted the stunts in.

Other than that, I can't really say that much. I don't really like high power games like that. There is a point where people have too much refresh and just take powers because they still have points to spend. If everyone has supernatural toughness and strength, that basically means nobody has it. I guess it would be easier if you tone it down to a 12 or maybe 15 refresh game, that would still be high power, but easier to handle.
I tend to agree, balancing a refresh cost that high from scratch is going to be near impossible.  Especially if the players and/or GM are still learning the games system.  Heck I started my players at 8 refresh and I still had balancing issues due to learning the system.

There's a reason the book doesn't even give suggestions past 10 refresh and pretty strongly suggests only rarely giving out more refresh points as your games goes on.  It's that (according to many reliable people on these forums) the game balance tends to fall apart once players hit the high teens to early twenties refresh mark.  By the RAW suggestions, your main antagonist/s would need a refresh level of almost 400 to not get stomped into the dirt by your players.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Haru on December 21, 2012, 03:31:55 PM
By the RAW suggestions, your main antagonist/s would need a refresh level of almost 400 to not get stomped into the dirt by your players.
Which will basically be the "plot device powerful" end of the spectrum.

You can have high powered characters without high refresh numbers though. Just adjust where things fall off the "low powered spectrum" and the "high powered spectrum" in your game. Our World has a lot of characters without stats, because those are either too weak or too strong to have meaningful fights with. If you push, for example, a red court vampire off the low end of this spectrum and on the other hand put stats on Lea, then your powerlevel will have changed significantly, while remaining the refresh level the same.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Locnil on December 21, 2012, 03:58:21 PM
Love the Iron Druid reference... in fact he was the only one I paid attention to.

Anyway, if it's a high-powered game, why is the skill cap still at Superb? Also, The Answerer seems overpowered for a [-1] ability.

Also, yeah, I'd like to know what you mean by balance. Make sure they're all roughly equal to one another, or what?

Edit: Oops, didn't see all the others had Fantastic abilities. Still, it seems a little low.

Also, your focus items seem pretty screwed up - Mordred's grant a +4/+3 bonus which I'm pretty sure is againt the rules, and Atticus's has 10 focus item slots in one item, which means it needs to be the size of a car by RAW. Ditto for Scarlet.

The Killer of Many stunt is frankly useless at these levels. Unless your GM is using an insanely broad definition of Pure Mortals.

Is there a reason you have to spend 2FP, instead of 1, for Armageddon?

Shouldn't you be mentioning frequency, for the Golden Cloak of War?

Power Attack... tbh, I know it's in line with the canon stunts, but I always felt stunts like these should increase weapon rating by 4, not just 3. Strictly IMO here, though.

Is there a reason Scarlet doesn't have Recovery? Not that there's a problem, but it's a rather odd build.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: JDK002 on December 21, 2012, 04:12:28 PM
Which will basically be the "plot device powerful" end of the spectrum.

You can have high powered characters without high refresh numbers though. Just adjust where things fall off the "low powered spectrum" and the "high powered spectrum" in your game. Our World has a lot of characters without stats, because those are either too weak or too strong to have meaningful fights with. If you push, for example, a red court vampire off the low end of this spectrum and on the other hand put stats on Lea, then your powerlevel will have changed significantly, while remaining the refresh level the same.
Not a bad way to deal with the npc imbalance at all.  Though that would mean he would need to stat everything from scratch, which is a lot of work, but not impossible. 

I know I'm being discouraging, but if it were me I would probably have the players make new characters and a drastically lower power level and tie them into the story you already established and use the high power characters as npcs in the story.  You could use this to a very cool effect, it would drive home just how powerful the npcs are and how in over their head the players are.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 21, 2012, 09:32:08 PM
Somtimes discouraging is helpful. Looking at these, they probably need to be toned down a lot, especially if i'm making refresh errors. I'll just cut most of the Strength/Speed/Power things. Out of all the characters, i'd call Scarlet and Atticus the most reasonably playable. Mordred was made by someone i know to munchkin out in D&D 3.5 (surprise surprise), so he can probably be modified into just a spellslinger. And i'd like them powered down. I'll try and cut the Refresh costs to the mid-high teens. The players really wanted to experiment with some of the custom power levels.
Scarlet
(click to show/hide)

Ebenezar
(click to show/hide)

Atticus
(click to show/hide)

Mordred
(click to show/hide)

As edits, how will this do?

TL;DR: I'm powering them down. Help please.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 21, 2012, 09:40:06 PM
Okay. I'll work 'em out at 50 skills and Refresh 18 or so (balancing things on the way). Gimme a few minutes.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 21, 2012, 10:04:44 PM
Okay, I came up with 52 skill points to make this guy right...so I'm gonna stick with that for the others. 52 skill points, Refresh 18 seems workable.

Name: Doctor Ebenezar “Rex” Walton
High Concept:
Ferrovax’s Emissary
Trouble:
“Tyrant Lizard”
Other:
I’m Not Indiana Jones; But I Totally Am; Damn All Dragons; Paleontology Specialist; For Science!; “It Belongs In A Museum”

Skills:
Human Form:
Fantastic: Scholarship, Lore
Superb: Contacts, Resources,
Great: Athletics, Burglary,
Good: Presence, Conviction, Endurance,
Fair: Intimidation, Rapport, Stealth,
Average: Alertness, Discipline, Guns, Survival, Weapons,

Dinosaur Form:
Fantastic: Athletics, Fists,
Superb: Endurance, Might
Great: Alertness, Intimidation,
Good: Presence, Conviction, Survival,
Fair: Burglary, Lore, Stealth,
Average: Discipline, Rapport, Investigation, Scholarship, Weapons (I guess...no other skill was even a tiny bit workable)

Stunts
Scientist(Archaeology, Paleontology)

Powers
Marked By Power [-1] (Ferrovax)
Beast Change (he can change into multiple dinosaurs, but all have the same skill list) [-1]

Human Form [+1] effecting:
Modular Abilities [-15] (13 form points)

“Rote” Forms
Tyrannosaurus Rex
For when you absolutely, positively, have to leave nobody alive.
Hulking Size [-2]
Claws [-1]
Mythic Strength [-6]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]

Velociraptor
Rex is a big Jurassic Park fan.
Claws [-1]
Echoes of the Beast [-1]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
Pack Instincts [-1]
Spider Walk [-1]

Pterodactyl Form
Cheaper than the bus.
Echoes of the Beast [-1]
Claws [-1]
Wings [-1]
Supernatural Speed [-4]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Hulking Size [-2]

Total Cost: -17 Refresh
Fate Points: 1

Stress
Physical: 0000/(0000) + 1 additional mild consequence
Mental: 0000
Social: 0000
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 21, 2012, 10:29:52 PM
Being a fan of the Iron Druid books, I'll admit to actually modifying this character to be a bit more in line with them (he's able to use magic when not touching the earth...he's just less so). And to generally be more powerful/useful (as much as possible given the lost Refresh).

Name:Siodhachan O'Suilleabhain (Atticus O’Sullivan)
High Concept:
Celtic Druid
Trouble:
Last of My Kind
Other:
Captain Planet; Ecoterrorist; Bloody Witches; “Never Tell Me The Odds”; The Earth Is Clingy

Skills:
Fantastic: Lore,
Superb: Conviction, Weapons,
Great: Athletics, Discipline, Empathy,
Good: Endurance, Deceit, Rapport, Survival,
Fair: Alertness, Guns, Investigation, Scholarship,
Average: Craftsmanship, Might, Performance, Presence,

Stunts:
I Have Lived History (Scholarship): You know the history of the world very well because you were around for most of it. Add two to your Scholarship skill when using it for knowledge of the past.

Powers:
Marked By Power [-1] (The Earth/Gaea)
Wizard’s Constitution [-0]
Item of Power: Fragarach The Answerer [-2]
Evocation [-3]
The Sight [-1]
Refinement [-2]

Human Form [+2] (Can only be used when bare feet touching earth/ground)
   Sponsored Magic: Nature Magic [-3]
   Inhuman Strength [-2]
   Inhuman Speed [-2]
   Inhuman Recovery [-2]

Total Refresh Cost: -17 Refresh
Fate Points: 1

Specialization
Elements (Earth, Water, Spirit); Power (Earth +1), Control (Spirit+1, Earth+2)

Focus Items
Binding Tattoos (+1 Earth Offensive Control, +1 Earth Offensive Power, +1 Earth Defensive Control +1 Earth Defensive Power)
Iron Torc (8 shift Block or Armor 4, 3/session) (4 Enchanted Item Slots)

Fragarach The Answerer [-2]

[-1] True Strike: +1 Weapons when wielding the sword.
[-1] Armor-Piercer : Ignores all mundane and supernatural armor effects (not including those of Toughness powers). (This was over-costed...and shouldn't apply to natural Toughness.)
[-0] It Is What It Is. Fragarach is an excellent sword. Weapon 3.
[+2] One-Time Discount. Fragarach is a full-sized sword and therefore quite noticeable.
[-1] Air Control: Fragarach gives anyone with Evocation access to the the Air Element and +1 Control with that Element.
[-1] The Answerer. If the wielder pushes Fragarach against the throat or body of an enemy and speaks the magic word, that enemy cannot make Deceit checks or lie. It must answer any question asked of it, but this effect can be opposed by a Discipline check against Epic difficulty.

There, the item's more useful, he's got some decent defense, and he's a solid Evoker using Earth.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 21, 2012, 10:53:57 PM
Scarlet sorta lacks focus. She'd be more effective with either scrapping the magic or scrapping the physical stuff and using the points to bolster the other. For example, her mundane attacks are 6 shifts at Weapon 7...and her magical ones are 6 shifts at Weapon 6...so, yeah, problems. Tell me which to ditch and I can make a thematically on-point character who's significantly more effective.

Name:Scarlet Zuigiber

High Concept
Incarnation of War

Trouble
My Boss Is A Bastard

Other
CalArts Represent!; The Red Sword; “Come And See”; Art Student; Actually Very Nice; Hippie Parents; Squire of the Apocalypse

Skills
Fantastic: Weapons, Guns
Superb: Endurance, Fists
Great: Athletics, Lore, Performance,
Good: Craftsmanship, Deceit, Presence,
Fair: Alertness,  Might,Scholarship,
Average: Contacts, Intimidation, Resources,

Stunts
Playing To Expectations: Being a good actor requires being a good liar. You may use your Performance skill for the Falsehood & Deception trapping of the Deceit skill.
Artist: You are an artist, obviously. Pick a genre and a medium. Add one to your Performance skill when dealing with something that is part of either your chosen medium or your chosen genre, and add two to your Performance skill when dealing with something that is part of both your chosen genre and your chosen medium.
Weapon Specialization: You know how to attack effectively with a specific type of weapon. Choose a type of weapon. Your attacks with that type of weapon inflict two additional stress. (Swords)

Powers
Marked By Power [-1] (War)
Sponsored Magic [-4] (Transcendent Swordsmanship/War)
Item of Power: The Red Sword [-9]

Total Refresh Cost: -17
Fate Points: 1

Focus Items
The Red Sword (TS Offensive Power +2)

Enchanted Items
The Golden Cloak of War (6 shift Block or Armor 3, 3/session) [4 Enchanted Item Slots]

The Red Sword of War [-13]
Purpose [-0] (Put simply, to create strife. Acts as a compel on the relevant aspect)
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch [+3] is True Peace.
Incite Emotion [-4] (Wrath/Strife, At Range, Lasting Emotion, Potent Emotion)
Emotional Vampire [-1] (Wrath/Strife)
Wrathful Destruction [-1] The sword becomes far more powerful when wielded in anger. When the wielder strikes with intent to kill, or strikes with rage, the blade is Weapon:6.


Transcendent Swordsmanship can be found in the master Sponsored Magic list, but i'll repost it here-
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 22, 2012, 02:33:07 AM
Thank you so very much. All of those are quite playable, and fit within the balance i asked for. Scarlet should be primarily a tank who can do, at her very best, four shift evocations. Deleting the skill replacement part of Transcendant Swordsmanship would probably help, but i love it as is and would be loath to change it.


And i'm also a huge Iron Druid fan, and was tearing my hair out trying to figure out how to represent his powers, which are limitless while touching the earth, and very very limited if he's not. (Come to think of it, should'nt he have a Physical Immunity to magic? I'm pretty sure that's a net refresh cost of -3, however, slinging him into NPC-dom.)
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 22, 2012, 03:35:30 AM
Other than that, I can't really say that much. I don't really like high power games like that. There is a point where people have too much refresh and just take powers because they still have points to spend. If everyone has supernatural toughness and strength, that basically means nobody has it.

I kinda like high-powered games because they let the GM play hardball. Everybody having Supernatural Toughness doesn't mean that nobody has it, it means that you can hit your players with 15-shift Thaumaturgy zone attack out of nowhere without killing them.

The balance does get iffy as the power level rises, though. Mortals get less viable, and spellcasting gets more impressive. Consequences get less effective, since the stress inflicted with each attack increases as the amount soaked by consequences remains the same.

And sometimes skill pyramids get weird.

By the RAW suggestions, your main antagonist/s would need a refresh level of almost 400 to not get stomped into the dirt by your players.

The RAW suggestions are best ignored. The importance of skills, optimization, and circumstances makes it impossible to judge character power purely by Refresh total.

[-1] Armor-Piercer : Ignores all mundane and supernatural armor effects (not including those of Toughness powers). (This was over-costed...and shouldn't apply to natural Toughness.)

...

[-1] The Answerer. If the wielder pushes Fragarach against the throat or body of an enemy and speaks the magic word, that enemy cannot make Deceit checks or lie. It must answer any question asked of it, but this effect can be opposed by a Discipline check against Epic difficulty.

Armour Piercer might be a bit too good once big enchanted items come into play. It could easily be +5 stress/hit.

The Answerer is just unfair. There's a reason that absolute effects are so rare in this game. I suggest modelling it as a Compel.

Enchanted Items
The Golden Cloak of War (6 shift Block or Armor 3, 3/session) [4 Enchanted Item Slots]

...

Wrathful Destruction [-1] The sword becomes far more powerful when wielded in anger. When the wielder strikes with intent to kill, or strikes with rage, the blade is Weapon:6.

Personally I'm of the opinion that you have to choose Block or Armour when you make the item. I know this is a non-settled issue, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but I figure this deserves mention.

Wrathful Destruction would normally be overpowered, but with Incite Emotion and spellcasting to compete with it's fair.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 22, 2012, 06:02:41 AM
Thank you for your thoughts. Any advice for a reword on The Answerer? Again, Atticus is basically lifted wholesale from the Iron Druid books, where he's actually depicted
(click to show/hide)
. That is a fairly accurate writeup of Fragarach's powers- In fact, it may be a little underpowered, considering in the latest book Fragarach proves quite capable of
(click to show/hide)
. the powers of the Red Sword that are specifically related to wrath and killing intent were intended to be represented as compels, so good eye there.

I suppose the Answerer could just up the hell out of a Deceit check difficulty, but that's almost the same thing but just reworded to seem a little more fair.
(man I italicize a lot of things)
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 22, 2012, 06:20:28 AM
Thank you for your thoughts. Any advice for a reword on The Answerer?

Perhaps it's a stunt-analogue that lets you use Weapons or Lore to defeat attempts at lying. Or perhaps it's Ritual (Crafting) with every item slot invested in an anti-lying item.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 22, 2012, 12:08:49 PM
Thank you so very much. All of those are quite playable, and fit within the balance i asked for. Scarlet should be primarily a tank who can do, at her very best, four shift evocations. Deleting the skill replacement part of Transcendant Swordsmanship would probably help, but i love it as is and would be loath to change it.

Hmm, that is an issue. Ah, well, she's got a total of Weapon 10 when trying hard, she'll do okay even as is.

And i'm also a huge Iron Druid fan, and was tearing my hair out trying to figure out how to represent his powers, which are limitless while touching the earth, and very very limited if he's not. (Come to think of it, should'nt he have a Physical Immunity to magic? I'm pretty sure that's a net refresh cost of -3, however, slinging him into NPC-dom.)

It would be ideal to handle it that way, yes. That said, the current Torc-as-enchanted-item doesn't say it's only a block against damaging stuff...and using it against offensive spells seems a good 'poor man's' version of that power.

The RAW suggestions are best ignored. The importance of skills, optimization, and circumstances makes it impossible to judge character power purely by Refresh total.

I don't know about ignored per se. Taking them with a grain of salt is definitely the way to go, though.

Armour Piercer might be a bit too good once big enchanted items come into play. It could easily be +5 stress/hit.

True...but sometimes it's none, and it does nothing vs. blocks. None or 5 Stress depending on circumstances not in your control sounds on par with a flat +2, at least to me.

The Answerer is just unfair. There's a reason that absolute effects are so rare in this game. I suggest modelling it as a Compel.

That's fair. I'm inclined to go with a slight modification of your later suggestion and having it use either Lore or Weapons as a Block against lying (possibly opposed by Discipline).

Personally I'm of the opinion that you have to choose Block or Armour when you make the item. I know this is a non-settled issue, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but I figure this deserves mention.

I strongly disagree, as do the Evil Hat folks (for those who care). You're quite right it deserves mention, though.

Wrathful Destruction would normally be overpowered, but with Incite Emotion and spellcasting to compete with it's fair.

Yeah...it's also conditional, so it seemed like it should be slightly better than a flat +2 when it did come up.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Locnil on December 22, 2012, 04:02:57 PM
Thank you for your thoughts. Any advice for a reword on The Answerer? Again, Atticus is basically lifted wholesale from the Iron Druid books, where he's actually depicted
(click to show/hide)
. That is a fairly accurate writeup of Fragarach's powers- In fact, it may be a little underpowered, considering in the latest book Fragarach proves quite capable of
(click to show/hide)
. the powers of the Red Sword that are specifically related to wrath and killing intent were intended to be represented as compels, so good eye there.

I suppose the Answerer could just up the hell out of a Deceit check difficulty, but that's almost the same thing but just reworded to seem a little more fair.
(man I italicize a lot of things)

Three, huh? Guess I really should start looking for that fifth book. Though I feel obliged to point out, gods in the ID series seem to have very different levels of power than in the DV.

Anyway, personally I would model The Answerer as a power that gives him a free compel every session, that lets him force another person to tell the truth if they don't buy it off. Additional uses (and escalation, for that matter) cost 1FP each, which explains why we don't see him use it that often. Alternatively, make it so that when he takes someone out, a possible option is now to simply force them to speak the truth, instead of killing them or knocking them out or whatever.

In both cases it'll still be a [-1] power by my reckoning (well, the second version could be free, only tied in to the IoP).


Also:
Physical Immunity to magic would be the best way, since it prevents all direct harm and nothing else. Also, I suggest you cost it as a [+6] catch, which makes it easier to afford.

As for how he can draw on vitually limitless levels of power, I say either give him Mental Resilience with a Limitation of only on earth, or let him take sponsor debt instead of say, two points of stress, or both. Sponsor debt, in particular, fits particularly well with what I remember.

P.S. How much do you want to stick to the source? Because I seem to remember that Druids faced a steeper punishment for breaking the First Law; i.e. they flat out die instantly, no save.


Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 22, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
So...on Mordred. What's the important bit of the character? I can easily keep any two of Incite Emotion, good Magic, and Physical Stuff. I'm guessing Magic is important but I'm less clear on which of the other two, though personally, I'd be inclined to ditch the Incite Emotion.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 22, 2012, 06:54:37 PM
Mordred was hard here's the magic/physical version. He's the best magician of the group and pretty good physically (though still the weakest in physical conflict). I'm still a little shaky on that sword, though. Also, I've gone back and adjusted Scarlet slightly based on your statements about how she's supposed to work.

Name:
Sir Mordred Malebranche of the Round Table

High Concept:
The Dark Hunter

Trouble:
I Used To Go Bump In The Night

Other:
Razorgloom
Raised By Goblins;
Give Me My Bloody Spells Back
“You Are The Brute Squad”
Daddy Erlköenig
Arthur’s Bane
“Name’s Captain Reynolds, Ma’am”

Skills:
Fantastic: Conviction, Discipline
Superb:, Weapons, Lore
Great: Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth,
Good: Endurance, Survival, Presence,
Fair: Alertness, Deceit, Fists,
Average: Burglary, Contacts, Scholarship,

Stunts:
Hunter (Survival)
Inexhaustible Power: You always have a bit more juice to draw upon. You may take two additional mild mental consequences when facing the stress incurred from using Evocation.*


Powers:

Marked By Power [-1]
Evocation [-3]
Wyld Magic [-3]
Refinements [-3]

Feeding Dependency [+1], affecting
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]

Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch is Silver and holy objects [+3]

Item of Power: Razorgloom [-1]

Total: -17 Refresh
Fate Points: 1

Specialization
Elements (Air, Fire, Spirit); Power (Spirit +1, Fire +1), Control (Spirit+2, Fire +2)

Focus Items:
Bracer of the Hunt, Right [+1 Offensive Power, +1 Offensive Control with Fire]
Bracer of the Hunt, Left  [+1 Defensive Power with Spirit]

Enchanted Items:
Replica Browncoat [6 shift Block or Armor 3, 5 uses per session] [4 Item Slots]

Stress:
Mental: OOOO + 3 additional mild consequences (2 only usable for magic)
Physical: OOOO(OO)
Social: OOOO
Hunger: OOOO +1 additional mild consequence
Armor: 1, or by spell or item effect.

Razorgloom(Laevateinn) [-1]
Razorgloom is the Sword of Wyld’s Shadow- The Dark Hunter’s equivalent to the Sword of Summer’s Flame or the Sword of Winter’s Frost. It carries these abilities-

Purpose [-0] Razorgloom’s true purpose is the killing of Faeries. Take a -2 to any Rapport or Empathy check when dealing with the Sidhe as the sword empathically urges you to kill them. It will refuse to function for any Sidhe who does not work without the sanction of the Erlking.  It also enjoys destroying lights.

All Creatures Are Prey [-2] Razorgloom was forged not to defend, or retaliate, or even to kill- It was made to destroy, and it excels in it’s task. It ignores all mundane armor effects and reduces the level of Toughness of any creature by one (Supernatural becomes Inhuman, Inhuman vanishes) [This seemed under-costed, since it applies to everything]

Shadow-Sharpened [-0] Razorgloom is one of  the sharpest things in the world- It was sharpened on, in order, wool, velvet, silk, wind, sunlight, a whisper, a breath, and a smile. In light, it acts as a Weapon:2 katana. In shadow or darkness, it is Weapon:4. [This, on the other hand, seemed overcosted. It could be Weapon 3 for free, being Weapon 2 sometimes and Weapon 4 others seemed a fair trade for that.]

Mageslayer [-1]  Razorgloom was made to kill Sidhe, masters of magic. The svartalves who forged it took this into account, and enchanted it similarly to a Warden’s sword- it may be used with Weapons as a defense against spells, and may also attack existing spells with Weapons using the Counterspell rules. [This...sat slightly wrong. This version is more...synchronized. Still might be too powerful though. Hmmmm. That might be balanced out by the (completely unnecessary, mechanically) social penalty listed under Purpose.]

One Time Discount [+2] Hiding a full-sized katana is tricksy.

Unbreakable [-0] Razorgloom cannot be broken or destroyed except in a specific ritual involving Summer’s light and soulfire.

On Rotes: Balefire Blast is only 9 shifts. That's really the only change. The rest work as advertised, basically.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Tedronai on December 22, 2012, 10:16:03 PM
That's fair. I'm inclined to go with a slight modification of your later suggestion and having it use either Lore or Weapons as a Block against lying (possibly opposed by Discipline).

Blocks are not opposed.  Blocks are opposition.  Any roll (of any skill) that can be affected by the block can break the block.  Any roll (of any skill) that cannot be affected by the block cannot break the block.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 22, 2012, 10:18:35 PM
Blocks are not opposed.  Blocks are opposition.  Any roll (of any skill) that can be affected by the block can break the block.  Any roll (of any skill) that cannot be affected by the block cannot break the block.

I suppose so...it just feels wrong to oppose it with deceit when it's supposed to be a willpower thing, if resistible at all.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Tedronai on December 22, 2012, 10:42:43 PM
You COULD have Discipline modify Deceit in that situation...
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 22, 2012, 11:37:27 PM
ooh! It's Sanctaphrax! I liked those books too, but I'm not very far in the series (Midnight over Sanctaphrax)

Regarding Mordred, I do have an issue with him having full Evocation, but the rest of it seems reasonable. The thing about the campaign starter (The Emissaries each suffering a metroid-style power down) is that it most definitely hit Mordred the hardest. A bit of backstory for him is behind the spoiler.
(click to show/hide)

It hit him the hardest because he was far and away the strongest out of the five of them. The original, insane write-up was, pre-mantle theft, an accurate measurement of his abilities.  (I wrote another one that I didn't post because I'm still doing backstory and power adjustments. He should be up tonight for review). He has "Give Me My Bloody Spells Back" as an aspect because he hates weakness and being weak, which is probably typical for someone raised among goblins. I meant for him to lose Evocation, all his Supernatural-level abilities, and a few Refinements. Your writeup is extremely accurate but for Evocation. Your wording on the this one implies you have another- May we see it?

And again, thank you for all this.
"from the bottom, of my hea-rt...."
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 22, 2012, 11:43:51 PM
I don't have another, I was just thinking about it but I can definitely ditch Evocation and manage something else...indeed, with that description, I have an idea. Gimme a moment...
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 23, 2012, 12:05:19 AM
And here's the fixed version:

Name:
Sir Mordred Malebranche of the Round Table

High Concept:
The Dark Hunter

Trouble:
I Used To Go Bump In The Night

Other:
Razorgloom
Raised By Goblins;
Give Me My Bloody Spells Back
“You Are The Brute Squad”
Daddy Erlköenig
Arthur’s Bane
“Name’s Captain Reynolds, Ma’am”

Skills:
Fantastic: Conviction, Discipline
Superb:, Weapons, Lore
Great: Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth,
Good: Endurance, Survival, Presence,
Fair: Alertness, Deceit, Fists,
Average: Burglary, Contacts, Scholarship,

Stunts:
Hunter (Survival)
Inexhaustible Power: You always have a bit more juice to draw upon. You may take two additional mild mental consequences when facing the stress incurred from using Evocation.*


Powers:
Incite Emotion (Fear/Dread) [-3] (At Range, Lasting Emotion)
Emotional Vampire [-1]

Marked By Power [-1]
Wyld Magic [-4]
Refinements [-1]

Feeding Dependency [+1], affecting
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]

Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch is Silver and holy objects [+3]

Item of Power: Razorgloom [-1]

Total: -17 Refresh
Fate Points: 1

Focus Items:
Bracer of the Hunt, Right [+1 Offensive Power, +1 Offensive Control with Wyld Magic]
Bracer of the Hunt, Left  [+1 Defensive Power, +1 Defensive Control with Wyld Magic]

Enchanted Items:
Replica Browncoat [6 shift Block or Armor 3, 5 uses per session] [4 Item Slots]

Stress:
Mental: OOOO + 3 additional mild consequences (2 only usable for magic)
Physical: OOOO(OO)
Social: OOOO
Hunger: OOOO +1 additional mild consequence
Armor: 1, or by spell or item effect.

Razorgloom(Laevateinn) [-1]
Razorgloom is the Sword of Wyld’s Shadow- The Dark Hunter’s equivalent to the Sword of Summer’s Flame or the Sword of Winter’s Frost. It carries these abilities-

Purpose [-0] Razorgloom’s true purpose is the killing of Faeries. Take a -2 to any Rapport or Empathy check when dealing with the Sidhe as the sword empathically urges you to kill them. It will refuse to function for any Sidhe who does not work without the sanction of the Erlking.  It also enjoys destroying lights.

All Creatures Are Prey [-2] Razorgloom was forged not to defend, or retaliate, or even to kill- It was made to destroy, and it excels in it’s task. It ignores all mundane armor effects and reduces the level of Toughness of any creature by one (Supernatural becomes Inhuman, Inhuman vanishes) [This seemed under-costed, since it applies to everything]

Shadow-Sharpened [-0] Razorgloom is one of  the sharpest things in the world- It was sharpened on, in order, wool, velvet, silk, wind, sunlight, a whisper, a breath, and a smile. In light, it acts as a Weapon:2 katana. In shadow or darkness, it is Weapon:4. [This, on the other hand, seemed overcosted. It could be Weapon 3 for free, being Weapon 2 sometimes and Weapon 4 others seemed a fair trade for that.]

Mageslayer [-1]  Razorgloom was made to kill Sidhe, masters of magic. The svartalves who forged it took this into account, and enchanted it similarly to a Warden’s sword- it may be used with Weapons as a defense against spells, and may also attack existing spells with Weapons using the Counterspell rules. [This...sat slightly wrong. This version is more...synchronized. Still might be too powerful though. Hmmmm. That might be balanced out by the (completely unnecessary, mechanically) social penalty listed under Purpose.]

One Time Discount [+2] Hiding a full-sized katana is tricksy.

Unbreakable [-0] Razorgloom cannot be broken or destroyed except in a specific ritual involving Summer’s light and soulfire.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 23, 2012, 12:33:32 AM
Nice! I'm finishing up the fifth guy now.
On a different note from how awful I am at balance, I wrote a template!
(oh god why does that seem so ironic)

Specifically, a template for this custom power level. I got the idea when i realized that there don't seem to be orcs in the DV. Also, i recently read Unseen Academicals, so I'm in a fey (orc?) mood. It's more of a monster statblock than a playable template, but c'est la vie. It's inside the spoiler.
(click to show/hide)

it's actually a really strange prospect to have someone play one of these, if only because there's so few of them.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 23, 2012, 12:47:35 AM
ooh! It's Sanctaphrax! I liked those books too, but I'm not very far in the series (Midnight over Sanctaphrax)

I think you're the first person here to mention getting the reference. I hereby award you one internet.

I strongly disagree, as do the Evil Hat folks (for those who care). You're quite right it deserves mention, though.

If you've discussed this before, I'd be interested in seeing a link to the discussion.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 23, 2012, 01:02:41 AM
SOON I WILL AMASS ALL THE INTERNETS

(SPOILER ALERT: HICKJR IS SECRETLY COWL ATTEMTPING A VERY ROUNDABOUT WAY OF GLOBAL CONTROL, NONE OF THE FOOLISH WIZARDS WILL SUSPECT THE INTERNET)

(SPOILER ALERT SECUNDUS: MISTER IS FERROVAX, MURPHY'S MOM IS THE ERLKING)
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 23, 2012, 01:14:14 AM
Also, if the idea where he's an ancient Arthurian knight who is actually more chivalrous than Harry Dresden is a little too ridiculous, the Dark Hunter is rather easily rewritten as Jack the Ripper.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 23, 2012, 02:09:04 AM
If you've discussed this before, I'd be interested in seeing a link to the discussion.

Link. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17041.0.html)

Particularly, read Fred's post on defensive items, which involves using one as a Block, and then later as Armor.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 23, 2012, 02:27:32 AM
Here's the fifth guy. His backstory is under the spoiler.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
on second thought, i am probably going to scrap that because it's awful. The concept is solid but in practice it's a little insane. (Is it just me or do skill pyramids get really really weird at high power levels? Like i'm trying to figure out why the weredinosaur is a trained ninja) And i like the mordred rewrite. It's closer to what i had in mind for him. I do still have one question-You've got specific elements down for Wyld Magic, which is, like Summer and Winter, it's own element. Typo?

edit secundus- I added the social penalty because I reread every section of the DV involving a magic sword or blade, and learned that if you keep one long enough, it gains a measure of sentience. If not sentience, a purpose. Medea's Bodkin seeks chaos and wildness, Morgana's athame seeks...well. I found it fitting that Laevateinn should seek the death of the Sidhe. After all, it's The Sword of Wyld's Shadow. Killing the Sidhe is the Wyld equivalent of Hunting The Most Dangerous Game.

Regarding the earlier comment on how closely to the actual Iron Druid books i'd like to remain, insta-death for a First Law violation is kind of weird. Atticus can't explicitly just unbind someone into their component elements. That's an easy First Law violation. But he could suck them to the waist in earth and decapitate them and there wouldn't be a problem. Which is what the Wardens do, now that i think about it. So essentially obey those rules if you use the character, i guess?
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 23, 2012, 07:44:15 AM
So...you want me to remake that one, too?

Yeah, the Element thing's a typo, I was in a hurry. I'll fix it.

And I didn't say the social penalty didn't make sense...I said it was mechanically unnecessary. And thus helped pay for a potentially too good ability.

As for Atticus...I'd say he can just always be compelled by his High Concept not to kill folks with magic.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 23, 2012, 08:57:51 AM
Lawbreaker is basically instant death anyway, for a 1-Refresh PC. Either way the character isn't playable anymore. So if Atticus has 1 Refresh then swapping out death for the Lawbreaker Power ought to be a fair trade.

I don't think Sponsored Faith should cost anything. Debt is, at least in theory, no different in value from FP.

PS: Link's interesting. Explains some of the current balance problems with enchanted items. I note with interest that Fred's on my side when it comes to unique abilities that let Luccio make rule-breaking items.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 23, 2012, 09:18:03 AM
Lawbreaker is basically instant death anyway, for a 1-Refresh PC. Either way the character isn't playable anymore. So if Atticus has 1 Refresh then swapping out death for the Lawbreaker Power ought to be a fair trade.

Very reasonable.

I don't think Sponsored Faith should cost anything. Debt is, at least in theory, no different in value from FP.

Certainly no more than -1.

PS: Link's interesting. Explains some of the current balance problems with enchanted items. I note with interest that Fred's on my side when it comes to unique abilities that let Luccio make rule-breaking items.

True! But mostly only in its ability to choose which of the two abilities you use (something my version removes and replaces).
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Tedronai on December 23, 2012, 09:32:56 AM
Certainly no more than -1.

I wouldn't even cost such a 'power' at -0.  I wouldn't even call it a power.

The Dark Powers are always willing to help.  Always.  Even Pure Mortals.  Some are likely especially eager to help Pure Mortals.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 23, 2012, 12:03:08 PM
I wouldn't even cost such a 'power' at -0.  I wouldn't even call it a power.

The Dark Powers are always willing to help.  Always.  Even Pure Mortals.  Some are likely especially eager to help Pure Mortals.

Yeah, but it's rather specifically the Light powers in this case...the kinder agenda may be worth something. Or not. I'd probably allow it at -0, personally, I was just saying, even going as extreme a cost as possible, no more than -1.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Tedronai on December 23, 2012, 07:52:06 PM
-0 seems a rather extreme cost to me for the ability to incur Compels.
ALL Compels are weighted equally, no matter the agenda.  If it doesn't sufficiently inconvenience you, then it's not worth the Compel.  That's the RAW.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 23, 2012, 08:32:15 PM
I put Sponsored Faith in there because i wanted him to get a lot of mileage out of his True Faith stuff. The idea is from the Generic NPC thread's statblock of an angel, which had this power. I felt it was appropriate. If you feel it makes sense as a -0, that's great. You're the expert here.

I'll admit to skimming the thread regarding Crafting, which sort of turns my brain into a mobius strip when i try to figure out how it interacts with Refinement and Sponsored magic. I'm not entirely sure about the deletion of "always on" items, though-It sort of cuts down on things like Harry's duster.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 23, 2012, 10:44:57 PM
The idea is from the Generic NPC thread's statblock of an angel, which had this power. I felt it was appropriate.

Yeah...sorry about that.

I wrote that back when I was pretty bad at custom Powers. Should definitely cost 0, if it's gonna be a Power. Especially if the Sponsor is gonna enforce morality on you.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Tedronai on December 24, 2012, 12:36:07 AM
Especially if the Sponsor is gonna enforce morality on you.
I wouldn't say that.  See above re: a compel is a compel is a compel
Compels 'enforcing morality' are no more (or less) potent nor punitive than those enforcing immorality, or those injecting new opposition, or anything else.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 24, 2012, 04:38:48 AM
Oh, and Sanctraphrax, while i've got you on the proverbial line, Is there a thread for homebrew templates or some such? Or would that come under "Generic NPCs"?
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 24, 2012, 06:15:54 AM
So, assuming anyone was interested, my version of Naoam Sayar, at the same power level as the rest:

Name:Noam Sayar
High Concept: Spearman Of God
Trouble: Backsliding
Other: Former Warlock, Not Comfortable With The Council, Strange Bedfellows, Spear of Destiny, Forcefully Faithful

Skills
Fantastic: Conviction,
Superb: Alertness, Contacts,
Great: Discipline, Empathy, Weapons,
Good: Burglary, Endurance,  Lore,  Rapport,
Fair: Guns, Deceit, Stealth, Fists,
Average: Craftsmanship, Investigation, Might, Presence,

Stunts
Destroyer Of Abominations: You hit harder when your enemy is something blasphemous. All attacks that you make with the Weapons skill inflict two additional stress to creatures that are in some way unusually offensive to your faith.
Fire And Brimstone: Threatening someone's body isn't really your style. You prefer to threaten the soul. You may use your Conviction skill for the Threats trapping of the Intimidation skill when threatening someone with eternal damnation, divine hatred, or some similar fate.

Powers
Sponsored Magic [-5] (Soulfire)
Refinement [-2]
Bless This House [-1]
Guide My Hand [-1]
Holy Touch [-1]
Righteousness [-2]
Spear of Destiny[-3]
Sponsored Faith [-0] (You may take points of Sponsor Debt in place of Fate Points in order to power your True Faith powers)

Total Cost: 17 Refresh
Fate Points: 1
Foci
Spear of Destiny (+3 Soulfire Offensive Control)
Holy Symbol (+2 Soulfire Defensive Control)
Wanderer's Cloak (6 shift Block or Armor 3, 5/session) [6 Enchanted Item Slots]

The Spear of Destiny [-3]
Treat as a Sword of The Cross. It’s “aim” is Retribution.

Rote Spells
“In Nomine Deus!”
Type: Soulfire Evocation, Attack
Shifts: 7
Control: Rote, requires the Spear.
Duration: 1 action
Opposed By: Target Athletics, magical blocks
Effect: A simple Weapon:7 attack at Epic aim. Given Soulfire’s unique properties, quite deadly against “the unclean”.

“Thy Rod and Thy Staff Comfort Me”
Type: Soulfire Evocation, Defensive Block
Shifts:6
Control: Rote, requires Holy Symbol.
Duration: 1 exchange
Effect: a shield of Soulfire coalesces in front of Noam, protecting him from harm. Can be used as a 6-shift block or Armor:3.

And throw on a Maneuver of some sort, maybe blinding holy light.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 24, 2012, 07:31:58 AM
Oh, and Sanctraphrax, while i've got you on the proverbial line, Is there a thread for homebrew templates or some such? Or would that come under "Generic NPCs"?

There is no such thread. Not because it's a bad idea or anything...it's just that nobody ever started one. (As far as I know.)

If you want to start such a thread, I'm pretty sure I can rustle up a few templates to add to it.

I wouldn't say that.  See above re: a compel is a compel is a compel
Compels 'enforcing morality' are no more (or less) potent nor punitive than those enforcing immorality, or those injecting new opposition, or anything else.

True.

Didn't really think that one all the way through.
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Hick Jr on December 24, 2012, 05:43:21 PM
I like the new Noam! Changing his Conviction was wise, and i like the Discipline drop. As for his rotes, i had planned to add an actual "healing" spell similar to that of the Soulfire-wielding former Gatekeeper that Belial666 wrote up. (Who was awesome). A "blinding Light" type maneuver would  be good (possibly carrying the effects of a Holy Touch?), so i'll hammer those out.

Sanctaphrax, I'm willing to start the thread, but I'd honestly prefer if you did it. Your name under the thread title will probably carry a lot more weight than mine, encouraging people to post. I actually asked because I managed to get this Orc template into something actually playable at Snorkeling after two milestones or Scuba Diving right out of the box. Speaking of which, this custom power level is basically just Scuba Diving+1 refresh, if im not mistaken? And like five extra skill points?

(edit- A brief note on Noam- Any campaign that features him is honestly begging to feature Nicodemus. I'm planning a who sub-plot where Noam is constantly being tempted with a coin and all his old power back and more.)
Title: Re: Help me balance these guys!
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 24, 2012, 08:50:05 PM
Sanctaphrax, I'm willing to start the thread, but I'd honestly prefer if you did it. Your name under the thread title will probably carry a lot more weight than mine, encouraging people to post.

Okay, sure.

Speaking of which, this custom power level is basically just Scuba Diving+1 refresh, if im not mistaken? And like five extra skill points?

Scuba Diving is 17 Refresh and 45 skill points, this is 18 Refresh and 52 skill points. So yeah, it's pretty close.