ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Narrativium on December 18, 2012, 09:45:42 PM

Title: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Narrativium on December 18, 2012, 09:45:42 PM
Okay, we know from Changes
(click to show/hide)
 

So, could a powerful enough entity-- a strong wizard, for example-- with enough knowledge of the Nevernever use it to get into the living room of a romantic couple's house?  Six years together, no children, if that helps.

If so, what effect would this have on the power of the wizard?  Does this count as crossing a threshold, or has it successfully been bypassed?

Also, could you, say, let in Changelings who had not chosen yet-- and if they then chose to become Fey while in the house, would their power be reduced by being in a home uninvited?

As you can see... my players are a sneaky lot.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Mr. Death on December 18, 2012, 09:47:37 PM
Entering through the Nevernever is, if I'm not mistaken, a way to bypass the Threshold thing entirely.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Tedronai on December 18, 2012, 09:49:24 PM
I'm not so sure of that, Death.  Do you have a source?
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Haru on December 18, 2012, 09:51:36 PM
I don't think entering through the nevernever bypasses the threshold. In Harry's, and most other Wizards cases though, it will bypass the wards, which is a victory all by itself. And you can kill a wizard just fine, even if your powers are reduced to 0 due to the threshold.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Narrativium on December 18, 2012, 09:54:42 PM
Anyone have thoughts on the part about sneaking in Changelings, having them choose (they've hired some Changelings for this specific purpose as a possible back-up team already), and whether they'd have full strength or not?
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 09:55:42 PM
Yeah, as is demonstrated in Cold Days, popping in from the Nevernever doesn't get rid of any Threshold, and thus limits one's powers significantly in one way or another. Of course, a Wizard could always just pop in with a perfectly mundane weapon like a gun and go to town.

Also, as mentioned, it avoids many (though probably not all, depending on the Wizard) wards.

EDIT: As for Changelings, they'd either lose powers like anyone else, or, like the full Fae, be bound by the traditions of hospitality (which would be a lot worse, from the perspective of doing things effectively).
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Mr. Death on December 18, 2012, 09:59:16 PM
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 09:55:42 PM
Yeah, as is demonstrated in Cold Days, popping in from the Nevernever doesn't get rid of any Threshold, and thus limits one's powers significantly in one way or another. Of course, a Wizard could always just pop in with a perfectly mundane weapon like a gun and go to town.
Where is that established in Cold Days? I don't recall that happening in that book.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Narrativium on December 18, 2012, 10:02:49 PM
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 09:55:42 PM
EDIT: As for Changelings, they'd either lose powers like anyone else, or, like the full Fae, be bound by the traditions of hospitality (which would be a lot worse, from the perspective of doing things effectively).

Ah!  Thanks for that quoted bit-- it never occurred to me, though it certainly should have.  That nullifies that threat.

The players' idea is to kidnap a couple of warden-strength wizards from their own home in the middle of the night.  I'd like to make this a monstrous pain in the butt for them, at least.  This is helping, most certainly!

Also, like Mr. Death, I don't recall anyone Nevernever-ing their way into a threshold-guarded place.  Did I miss something?

*Edited for grammar-fiend tendencies.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 10:03:23 PM
Quote from: Mr. Death on December 18, 2012, 09:59:16 PM
Where is that established in Cold Days? I don't recall that happening in that book.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Mr. Death on December 18, 2012, 10:05:13 PM
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 10:03:23 PM
(click to show/hide)
Ah, I'd forgotten about that.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Narrativium on December 18, 2012, 10:08:42 PM
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 10:03:23 PM
(click to show/hide)

*winces*  Forgot that entirely.  Thanks for the reminder! 

Looks like it's "good old human thuggery" time-- or they can try to hire something nastier than that, a demon or something. 

Thanks, folks.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 10:12:53 PM
No problem, always happy to be of assistance.  :)

And there's always trickery, too. If you can trick them into inviting you in...
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Narrativium on December 18, 2012, 10:15:40 PM
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 10:12:53 PM
No problem, always happy to be of assistance.  :)

And there's always trickery, too. If you can trick them into inviting you in...

Ssh!  Don't help the players, please, they're sneaky enough as it is!  ;D :-X
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Haru on December 18, 2012, 10:18:10 PM
How about ye olde water monster coming in from the drains? That could easily be an entrance to the nevernever, and a natural one for them, too.

Don't forget mirrors. Creepy things love to enter through mirrors. This could actually bypass the threshold, come to think of it. Due to their nature with mirrors, they are kind of in the nevernever and in the home at the same time. I know, that logic is sketchy, but still a pretty cool idea to follow up on, I think.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Narrativium on December 18, 2012, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: Haru on December 18, 2012, 10:18:10 PM
How about ye olde water monster coming in from the drains? That could easily be an entrance to the nevernever, and a natural one for them, too.

Don't forget mirrors. Creepy things love to enter through mirrors. This could actually bypass the threshold, come to think of it. Due to their nature with mirrors, they are kind of in the nevernever and in the home at the same time. I know, that logic is sketchy, but still a pretty cool idea to follow up on, I think.

These are good ideas, yes.  I hope that none of my players think of them!

(I was actually looking for a good justification for things not going their way-- not to do this myself.)
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 10:30:39 PM
Quote from: Narrativium on December 18, 2012, 10:24:46 PM
These are good ideas, yes.  I hope that none of my players think of them!

(I was actually looking for a good justification for things not going their way-- not to do this myself.)

I don't think either of those would actually allow one to ignore the Threshold. Though a powerful enough monster can simply power its way through.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Ghsdkgb on December 18, 2012, 10:35:33 PM
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 10:03:23 PM
(click to show/hide)
That had nothing to do with him coming from the Nevernever, though. Harry explicitly says that, if their intentions are friendly, they can come in without an invitation. Same as his cleaning service.

It's about intentions, not method of entry.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Deadmanwalking on December 18, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
Quote from: Ghsdkgb on December 18, 2012, 10:35:33 PM
That had nothing to do with him coming from the Nevernever, though. Harry explicitly says that, if their intentions are friendly, they can come in without an invitation. Same as his cleaning service.

It's about intentions, not method of entry.

Which was precisely my point. People were talking about using a method (the Nevernever) to circumvent Thresholds. I was using that as an example of how method didn't matter, so they couldn't do that.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Haru on December 18, 2012, 10:41:08 PM
Oh, well... my bad  ;D

Well then, let's create some defenses, shall we?

Ok, wards, first and foremost. A wizard that thinks about it could try and ward his home from the other side as well. Lea did that for Harry, but Edinburgh and Archangel are protected by wizards, not shide. As far as I understand it, they closed up the nevernever around those places and only left one entrance open, easy to defend. But still a pretty straight forward attempt at defending things. I like a more indirect approach.

For example, you could redirect the entrance to your home, instead of reinforcing it. Force your way inside, and the ward will use your strength against you and catapult you out on the other side, back into the nevernever. Or maybe even a whole other place in the nevernever, if the wizard in question is really good at that sort of things.
Or a similar idea, make it a multilevel entrance, so that when you get into the first door, you land in a different patch of the nevernever, from where you can enter the real home. Forcing your way in will still lead you to the wrong place, so you will actually have to disable the wards.

Inside the home itself, you could put down iron on the floor. I think a lot of the shide go barefoot, just because it's their style (and I like the trope), therefore a floor with steel tiles worked into it would work wonders to slow them down.

You can install steel doors with steel handles. If they try to bust through the walls: iron paint. There is magnetic paint out there that you can use to create a magnetic wall anywhere you want. Painting all your walls like that is pricey, but it will be pretty shide proof after that. Though this is a few levels of paranoid, I think. Then again, if someone is being followed, he might have good reason to do so.

That's it for now. If I can think of more things, I'll get back to you ;)
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Taran on December 19, 2012, 03:44:01 AM
If you knew where the entrances into your home were...like say there was a portal coming out of the fireplace...you could put a binding circle there, so anyone who walks through the door steps into a circle and is trapped there until they bust through the ward.  Put an alarm on it, so if/when whatever gets free it "pings".

I would think that some of the more paranoid wizards - and I count most wardens as paranoid - would explore the various entrances into the Nevernever from their house and take precautions.  Although, this might make it easier to open portals into their house.

Simple alarm wards on doorways would work too.  You could have them on various doorways inside the house.

Old fashionned security techniques: squeaky floors/doors.  These are just simple aspects.

Wards on the Nevernever side.

How about some very high tech equipment in a circle preventing magic from getting in.  Put it near the doorway where the where the wizard is sleeping.  Anyone crossing through breaks the circle allows the magic to hex the Tech and cause it to explode with a loud "pop".  Sounds a bit silly now that I re-read it.

If he knows which room the portal would open to, make the wards prevent things from going INTO the nevernever.  Then turn that room into a prison.  Steel walls, reinforced door.  Anything that walks in through the portal is trapped there and has to get past wards to get back into the Nevernever.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 19, 2012, 05:39:14 AM
Finding the part of the Nevernever which leads to the house you want would be a challenge in itself, I think.

And even if you know which part of the Nevernever to go to you still need to get there. Not easy, given how dangerous the Nevernever can be.

I don't think you'll have trouble making this hard for your players.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Gozer on December 19, 2012, 07:13:37 AM
You could always set up a Ward that bounced the intruders back somewhere specific in the NeverNever... somewhere specifically unpleasant. And underwater.
The options are fairly limitless, for a creative Wizard. And it seems that most of them are.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 19, 2012, 10:52:09 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on December 19, 2012, 05:39:14 AM
Finding the part of the Nevernever which leads to the house you want would be a challenge in itself, I think.

And even if you know which part of the Nevernever to go to you still need to get there. Not easy, given how dangerous the Nevernever can be.

I don't think you'll have trouble making this hard for your players.

I'm with Sanctaphrax here. Figure they can take an easy cab ride to the target's home and then have a terrifying home invasion vs. a prepared (if sleepy) wizard, or have a terrifying safari through God knows what followed by a relatively easy kidnapping. Terrifying safari should be marginally easier than terrifying home invasion, but then the cab ride should be easier than the kidnapping of the wizard, so maybe it evens out. :)
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: nick012000 on December 20, 2012, 07:05:12 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can use the Nevernever to bypass Thresholds, because that's what Harry does in the climactic battle in Ghost Story.

Of course, if the Threshold you're trying to bypass belongs to anyone with much magical talent or spiritual protection, you can probably expect the local Nevernever to be fortified with static defenses, wards, and goon squads.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Taran on December 20, 2012, 12:52:39 PM
I think he used it to bypass wards, not thresholds.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Tedronai on December 20, 2012, 05:55:13 PM
Harry uses passage from the Nevernever to bypass the Wards, and passage through an open portal from the Nevernever to bypass the Threshold.
The open portal served as a 'standing invitation' allowing him entry through the Threshold in a manner similar to the calling spell that had allowed him access previously.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Taran on December 20, 2012, 05:57:01 PM
ah, I see.  So this wouldn't apply in the case of a bunch of people busting into a wardens house, obviously.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Tedronai on December 20, 2012, 06:00:26 PM
If he has an open, unwarded portal sitting in his basement on a regular basis, then it might.  Otherwise...no, sorry, no luck.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Mr. Death on December 20, 2012, 07:25:16 PM
Quote from: Tedronai on December 20, 2012, 05:55:13 PM
Harry uses passage from the Nevernever to bypass the Wards, and passage through an open portal from the Nevernever to bypass the Threshold.
The open portal served as a 'standing invitation' allowing him entry through the Threshold in a manner similar to the calling spell that had allowed him access previously.
The portal wasn't the "standing invitation." The standing invitation was when he followed the other shades in the previous day.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Tedronai on December 20, 2012, 07:57:28 PM
Quote from: Mr. Death on December 20, 2012, 07:25:16 PM
The portal wasn't the "standing invitation." The standing invitation was when he followed the other shades in the previous day.

Unless you're reasserting your previous position that entering from the nevernever itself is a way of bypassing a threshold, I see no other way to interpret those events.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Mr. Death on December 20, 2012, 07:59:49 PM
Quote from: Tedronai on December 20, 2012, 07:57:28 PM
Unless you're reasserting your previous position that entering from the nevernever itself is a way of bypassing a threshold, I see no other way to interpret those events.
What I mean is, Harry only refers to the "standing invitation" thing in context to him following the Shades, and says that it was there the previous time, but isn't there when he goes back with Murphy and company as the reason he can't get back in through the normal door.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Tedronai on December 20, 2012, 08:05:14 PM
Which is why he uses the static open portal from the nevernever, which serves the same purpose (but requires him to go through the nevernever-side defenses first)
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Narrativium on December 20, 2012, 08:14:09 PM
Well, after that session, I sincerely hope that my players don't figure out where I got the ideas for the hindrances that I threw in their way, thanks all.  (I don't want them coming here for ideas on getting around the things I put in their way!)

Stymied them badly by leaving the Way into the home unguarded-- then laying about three dozen slapstick-comedy physical traps between the easily-opened way into the home's dining room and the upstairs bedroom where the targets actually slept.

(To give you an idea of what I mean by "slapstick comedy" traps:  There were marbles.  Invisible marbles on a hardwood floor.  LOTS of them!  Would that I owned a digital camera, just for the looks on their faces when they realized this!)

Thanks again, all!
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Haru on December 20, 2012, 08:15:51 PM
Quote from: Narrativium on December 20, 2012, 08:14:09 PM
(To give you an idea of what I mean by "slapstick comedy" traps:  There were marbles.  Invisible marbles on a hardwood floor.  LOTS of them!  Would that I owned a digital camera, just for the looks on their faces when they realized this!)
Holy crap, that's genius! *evil grin*
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Arcane on December 21, 2012, 03:14:45 AM
A little late but another defensive precaution against people or thing coming in through the Nevernever would be to have land-mine spells in places people are likely to emerge that are set to go off when touched by ectoplasm.  As noted in Summer Knight someone coming through a portal can end up bringing a little dust or other matter from the Nevernever with them inadvertently, which of course turns to ectoplasm on the other side.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Richard_Chilton on December 23, 2012, 12:23:18 AM
Thresholds don't protect dreams.  That's straight out of AAAA Wizardry (and one of the novels, but I thought I'd cite the mention in Our World).

Thresholds don't stop things from using mirrors to enter a place.

In Changes, we learn Lea moved her garden to the Nevernever on the other side of Harry's apartment to protect him from enemies who tried to attack from the Nevernever.  She mentioned that lots of enemies had tried - and I think there was the bones to prove it.

Spoiler for Ghost Story:
(click to show/hide)

Based on that, I'd have to say that Thresholds don't stop something entering your place from the Nevernever - but that wards probably would.  Or at least slow it down (i.e. effect it as normal).

Richard
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Tedronai on December 23, 2012, 12:39:15 AM
Harry used an OPEN gateway from the Nevernever.  He didn't open one himself, which, I feel, is a very big difference.
The fact that numerous enemies attempted to attack Harry from the Nevernever isn't particularly meaningful in terms of this question.  Pleny tried to attack him from the mortal world as well.
Thresholds don't protect some dreams, because some dreams result in the dreamer unwittingly projecting themselves to and creating a demesne in the Nevernever, where they have no threshold.

The mirrors bit, I'm less sure of.  I don't recall the specifics of that one, only that there are some things that can use them as gateways.
Title: Re: The Nevernever as a break-in tool
Post by: Richard_Chilton on December 23, 2012, 01:28:38 AM
Quote from: Tedronai on December 23, 2012, 12:39:15 AM
Harry used an OPEN gateway from the Nevernever.  He didn't open one himself, which, I feel, is a very big difference.

Harry used an OPEN gateway in the Nevernever, but in the real world he stood in front of an OPEN door and asked if someone could invite him in.  Murphy walked in, grabbed a survivor, and got him to invite Harry in before Harry could enter.

There are several spots where Harry talks about mirrors.

In AAAA Wizardry, Harry notices a hole in the threshold in the closet where the fetch had entered repeatably.  To quote:
Quote
Within the defensive wall of the threshold, other energy pulsed and moved—emotions from the house’s inhabitants, random energies sifting in from outdoors, the usual.

But not in the closet. There wasn’t anything at all in that closet.

and he mentions mirrors a page later:
Quote
“The threshold,” Meg said. “It should keep such things out.”
“Sometimes they ride in with someone in the family.  Sometimes if a child has a vivid enough dream, it can open up a window in the Nevernever that the boggart uses to skip in. They can use mirrors, sometimes, too.

Richard