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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Tasmin21 on June 17, 2007, 05:02:10 PM
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In my current beast of burden (read: work in progress), it is set in a fantasy world and focuses largely on one "royal" family. Now, my political system for this country isn't what you would call a traditional monarchy, so I came up with my own invented titles for the usual positions. (King = Sho, Queen = Shala, Prince = Sholon, Princess = Shalina)
Those who have been beta reading it for me have all come up against the same wall, that of the strange terminology. I never WANTED these things to be the traditional "king" or "princess" because of my differences in the political system, but now I wonder if maybe clinging to my own terms is just the height of stubbornness.
At what point should we give up and abandon our own ideas, for the readers' sake?
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You seem to have picked logical and consistent substitutes, Tasmin. I really doubt it would bother me if I encountered it in a book.
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I agree, as long as there was an explanation of the heirachy the actual names/titles wouldn't bother me, Just as I can equate Roi, Rex and Csar with King. You've invented a country why not a language too, Tasmin? ;D
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it may suck initially trying to remember what's what, but those things never bothered me after couple of chapters. so i dont really see a problem.
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Put an Appendix in the back.
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Put an Appendix in the back.
That's a damn good way of making me and many like me not read the book at all.
If somebody's reading SF or fantasy, it's reasonable to expect them to take in things being different. There are publishers out there who insist on appendices and lists of characters and maps and so forth, so I'm aware that it's not always the author's fault, but it still really irritates me, it's a crutch for not having the information adequately in the text.
If you really want to actually explain it, have a kid or a character from another country around who needs it explained to them over the course of the text. I'd think showing your characters interacting, about the course of their jobs, with each other and the world around them, should convey enough of what their positions are and mean that you wouldn't need to do that, though.
There are readers in the world who want every strange word and concept explained the instant they meet it, before anything else happens, or they start to complain; they also tend to want an explanation of who anyone is the instant they get mentioned. The technical term for these people is "idiots". Assuming your readers are not in fact idiots, and not spoon-feeding them, is better in the long run.
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Nah, I'll disagree neurovore, but rather than appendix a family tree in the front can sort out a lot of characters in an extensive character list and would also solve the problem. Neurovore could skip it completely...
If you are using 1st person it's sort of tough to do the "stranger in a strange land" routine and it can really get expository, which apparently everyone hates at publishing houses or agents these days. I'd balance chart vs expository in the Beast of Burden words and then pick the one that is easiest and simplist for the reader.
Keep your Beast under control!
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Nah, I'll disagree neurovore, but rather than appendix a family tree in the front can sort out a lot of characters in an extensive character list and would also solve the problem. Neurovore could skip it completely...
The big big problem I have with that is that it's giving you information outside the order of the story.
If you are using 1st person it's sort of tough to do the "stranger in a strange land" routine and it can really get expository, which apparently everyone hates at publishing houses or agents these days.
Not everybody; look at Neal Stephenson. Write your exposition well enough and it works on its own ground. Though I will grant that not everybody can be Neal Stephenson.
I'd balance chart vs expository in the Beast of Burden words and then pick the one that is easiest and simplist for the reader.
These are not the only two answers. Get the clues smoothly and well and you don't need so much of the exposition. It's the difference between stopping the story for three pages to explain how airborne mutagens were developed during the Great Zombie War and how everybody now has to go through complicated medical tests regularly to make sure they haven't been infected, and just showing characters going through that testing and grumbling about it and the friendly neighbourhood security guard running the test joking with them about what will happen if they fail, while also having a plot-relevant conversation. That tells the reader what they need to know for the story to work, and it does not break the point-of-view.
I'm not saying it's trivially easy, but it is doable and it is worth doing.
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Willing to conceed point to neurovore! Good points made. Especially as a final solution.
For whatever reason Tasmin is having a communication breakdown in getting the titles across to the readers that have read pages for her. It also appears that those reader's haven't found or suggested a way that seems to work either. Tamin wouldn't have brought it to the forum unless a solution hadn't presented itself and is frustrated as a result. The four titles seem simple & logical, so why isn't it working?
I'd still probably go ahead with the chart just for ease and as the "Beast" proceeds forward some wonderful solution might present itself? Can you give us that much leeway neurovore? Creativity needs a lot of time to bubble and boil sometimes, I think.
So query for neurovore: I'm curious what type of writer you are and how you proceed with a story? Always interesting to see how the process works for different people. I get the sense that you are a very good writer. The example you presented was wonderfully crafted.
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For whatever reason Tasmin is having a communication breakdown in getting the titles across to the readers that have read pages for her. It also appears that those reader's haven't found or suggested a way that seems to work either. Tamin wouldn't have brought it to the forum unless a solution hadn't presented itself and is frustrated as a result. The four titles seem simple & logical, so why isn't it working?
It could just be that these particular readers are not people for whom that is ever going to work, was the point I kind of got distracted from in my own rhetoric, to which there's no real solution short of better test-readers. It could alternatively be that the clues need to be in more effectively.
I'd still probably go ahead with the chart just for ease and as the "Beast" proceeds forward some wonderful solution might present itself? Can you give us that much leeway neurovore? Creativity needs a lot of time to bubble and boil sometimes, I think.
I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm just expressing opinions; rather strongly-held ones, granted.
I'm curious what type of writer you are and how you proceed with a story?
I'm not sure I have an informative answer to that general a question, I'm afraid. I write SF and fantasy and points in between; am currently actively working on two fantasies, one a roughly alternate Earth with magic that works likes science - because most of the good "magic as science" novels out there are magic as industrial science, almost magic in place of electricity, and I really wanted to do magic that felt like actual cutting-edge scientific research, with which I have some experience. That one I have the main sections of plotted out and have been working on since January, got about 30,000 words and have slowed right down on it for odd personal reasons that I do not think I could communicate in ways that would make sense to anyone not me. The other one I'm actively working on has reached about 20kwords in the past couple of months, and is exploring the question "what happens when you follow the prophecies, find the hero, set out on the quest, track down the ancient sword, and then realise you've got the wrong guy and by doing this you've messed things up irrevocably for the right guy's chances to actually save the world ?" the elevator pitch for the science-as-magic one is "Dyson epicycles ! Drexler nano-golems ! Singularity vs. Rapture steel cage match !... oh look, it's your floor. Why are you running away ?"
I have various SFnal things at various points in the submission cycle, but nothing published as yet, and this year I appear to be a fantasy writer whether I like it or not.
I get the sense that you are a very good writer. The example you presented was wonderfully crafted.
Thank you.
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Tasmin, I think if people are so easily tripped up by terms that are not really even foreign in nature, but follow English word forms and should be easily understood in context, well...I have to wonder why they are reading a fantasy story.
I don't think you have at this point, any need of so much as a footnote, much less an appendix. Although I do enjoy fantasy novels with worlds so complex and full of so MANY characters and languages (as long as they are well constructed and not just made up words) that you need appendices.
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Why not just make up words in english? Ok, I know that sounds silly, but I'm thinking more, use terms that may not be the standard 'king, queen,', but still get the message across and aren't strange words that are - and I think this is the big hang up- similar looking. Plus, I think working on a similar set-up as words that do mean king queen prince princess (i.e. tsar, tsarina, tsarevitch, etc, which your titles reminded me of) may have the exact effect you were hoping to avoid.
I know that's why, personally, such things tend to be a stumbling block for me. I start feeling like I have to memorize vocabulary and concept lists. That's fine in a foreign language literature class, but it's not fun.
That is of course the great thing about english.. the language generally has three or four ways to say the same thing, sometimes more, because of all the different languages that lent it vocabulary. (e.g. kingly/regal/royal). Plus, if there is any word-associations that are remotely similar to your set up, maybe use them.
I know, using an example from one of JB's books is overdone, but look at the codex alera with 'first lord'. He could have used king or some derivation of Caesar. But his chosen term was easy to remember, understand, *and* it implied something of the political set up. And the great thing about history, is that there has been such a variety of different systems, all with their own unique things, that perhaps there are bits and pieces of them you can steal from.
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Why not just make up words in english? Plus, I think working on a similar set-up as words that do mean king queen prince princess (i.e. tsar, tsarina, tsarevitch, etc, which your titles reminded me of) may have the exact effect you were hoping to avoid.
dare I mention here that those are not English words?
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dare I mention here that those are not English words?
When, they are transliterated, but they have been adopted into the language. (Intelligence Czar, drugs Czar, etc etc etc). So technically I am in the clear- but I did not mean to imply that tsar etc were english words, necessarily- that was the result of re-editing my post and being slightly careless. My point still stands though. Use already known words. Or avoid exoticism for exoticism's sake.
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Yes, those words have become loan words in English, but not in the context that they were originally meant. I fail to see any reason for avoiding "exotic" terms in an alternate world where our rules don't necessarily apply.
I still say stick to your guns Tasmin! It makes your world richer! Anyone who can't deal with it can go read Jackie Collins or John Grisham novels. :P
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My original point about the tsar pattern was that if it is so different than the "usual" stuff implied by king, queen, etc, than having words that so closely resemble the pattern used for something very closely associated with that very paradigm is going to cause problems.
And exoticism for exoticism's sake only reminds the reader that they are reading...it kicks them out of the story. Although it's not quite as bad as metafiction for that. In any case, if her test-readers say they have problems with it, I think she should listen to them- or at least give something else a try. It's the hardest bit about writing *anything*- fiction, non-fiction, news articles, essays, research papers, speeches, etc etc...
Murder your darlings as they say
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In my current beast of burden (read: work in progress), it is set in a fantasy world and focuses largely on one "royal" family. Now, my political system for this country isn't what you would call a traditional monarchy, so I came up with my own invented titles for the usual positions. (King = Sho, Queen = Shala, Prince = Sholon, Princess = Shalina)
Those who have been beta reading it for me have all come up against the same wall, that of the strange terminology. I never WANTED these things to be the traditional "king" or "princess" because of my differences in the political system, but now I wonder if maybe clinging to my own terms is just the height of stubbornness.
At what point should we give up and abandon our own ideas, for the readers' sake?
I don't think it should be too much of an issue. Look at something like the Dark Tower series. King invented a whole vocabulary for that.
Popkin: sandwitch like meal
Todash: weird psychedilic dream travel
Ka: fate
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Yes, that is true...Thankee, Sai and all that. I don't know. For some reason, it never felt like being forced to memorize stuff for a middle school geography class or something. I wonder what the difference is.
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I don't think it should be too much of an issue. Look at something like the Dark Tower series. King invented a whole vocabulary for that.
Popkin: sandwitch like meal
Todash: weird psychedilic dream travel
Ka: fate
And ye gods does he go over the top near the end in making up new words for every little thing and then spoon-feeding you with the meaning every time rather than acknowledging you might have brain enough to get it from context. It is to sigh.
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It does get a bit heavy in the last two books, i'll give you that.
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Not to mention comalla which i apparentlly as versatile as Marclar in South Park.