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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: FishStampede on December 05, 2012, 12:37:23 PM
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This is a very simple one, but wanted to run it by you guys first. The PC has both Claws and Breath Weapon, but both are represented as fire blasts from her fists. So, here's a Stunt I wanted to let her take to help out:
Fists:
Wave Motion Fist: Requires: Breath Weapon. Your breath weapon is an extension of your hands. Instead of Weaponry, you use Fists when rolling for Breath Weapon.
The name is a direct translation of "Hadoken."
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I would just let her use her breath weapon with fists its not as if the power is very strong anyway. I also wouldn't make her take claws as well.
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I would just let her use her breath weapon with fists its not as if the power is very strong anyway. I also wouldn't make her take claws as well.
Agreed. Unless the PC has taken some Strength powers as well, she would be better off with just Channeling(Spirit) anyway. Breath Weapon is ridiculously overpriced at [-2] refresh.
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Yeah, one of my characters is a Were dragon (classic drake, not Ferrovax), and I let him take Claws for free if he took Breath Weapon, sort of the way The Sight and Soulgaze can be bundled. Near as I can tell, Claws doesn't offer you anything that Breath Weapon doesn't, so I let them be bundled and rolled with the same skill.
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I suggest taking a look at the 'Natural Weapon' power rework in the 'Custom Powers master List' thread.
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Yeah, I'll echo consensus here. Breath Weapon is underpowered for 2 Refresh, you're making your player pay 4 Refresh for something not significantly better.
For reference, here's the Power Tedronai mentioned.
NATURAL WEAPONRY [-1]
Description: Your body contains or can produce some kind of weapon or attack.
Note: You have to pick one type of weapon (eg. fire breath, metal claws, three-foot tusks) when you take this power.
Skills Affected: Fists, Weapons, Guns, Discipline
Effects:
Natural Weaponry. Your body contains a weapon with a rating of 2. This weapon has a no range, is not capable of spray attacks, benefits from Strength powers, and is wielded with the Fists skill.
Potent Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a rating of 4.
Summoned Weaponry [-0]. You must take a supplemental action to create or draw your natural weapon before you can use it. In addition, you may wield your natural weapon with the Weapons skill.
Ranged Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a range of three zones and is capable of spray attacks. It may be wielded with the Fists, Weapons, Guns, or Discipline skill. It cannot be used with the defence trapping of Weapons unless you possess the Summoned Weaponry upgrade.
Area Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon may be used to make zonewide attacks.
Selective Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Area Weaponry) You do not harm yourself when making a zonewide attack against your own zone with your natural weapon.
Explosive Weaponry [+1]. (Requires Area Weaponry) Your natural weapon may not be used to make attacks that are not zone-wide.
Imprecise Weaponry [+1] (Requires Selective Weaponry) You suffer a -2 penalty to the accuracy of any zonewide attack that you make with your natural weapon.
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That's a very good idea and I'll bring it up to her. I realize though you left out the "poisoned claws" upgrade. It's something she has right now and uses to very great effect, though her version is burning fists and she sets people on fire instead of poisoning them. If we keep the same cost for that, it looks like she just gains 1 refresh from this change, though her claws do more damage and she can use Fists for her ranged attack.
Honestly, I just really wanted to see "Wave Motion Fist" on someone's character sheet. :D
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It'd be a savings of 2. 1 for Claws and 1 for the stunt that they no longer need to throw fire with Fists.
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Yes, it's a saving of 2 Refresh. Adds 2 zones of range too.
I keep meaning to add the Venomous upgrade to Natural Weaponry. But I never get around to it.
Well, I'll change that today.
Three questions for the forum before I do:
1. Should the POISONED Aspect be free-taggable?
2. Should it be possible to poison an entire zone with the zone attack upgrade?
3. Should it be possible to stack multiple POISONED Aspects on one person?
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1. Should the POISONED Aspect be free-taggable?
It's not well defined, but I would suggest not. Or rather, I would suggest that the poison-stress described in the RAW power is only available if the aspect is invoked to produce that effect, such that if the aspect is tagged instead for some other purpose, then a FP would have to be spent if the aspect were to produce its usual effect.
2. Should it be possible to poison an entire zone with the zone attack upgrade?
At the very least, I would suggest that zone-poison should suffer an additional surcharge.
3. Should it be possible to stack multiple POISONED Aspects on one person?
Absolutely. I would not, however, allow multiple instances of the automatic attack on the same individual in a single exchange (or at least, not without suitable justification, such as perhaps that individual having been subjected to multiple sources of poisoning independantly). Barring unusual circumstances, subsequent exposures would produce only the usual aspect effects (unless the original exposure aspect were to be removed in some manner, at which point subsequent aspects would serve as redundant backups).
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Hm. A fourth question just occurred to me. Should the poison attack's strength be equal to your skill or to the roll made to establish the Aspect?
Canon seems to say the former, though it's open to interpretation.
That aside, here's an attempt.
Venomous Weaponry [-2]. You may use your natural weapon to create an Aspect on any character within range with a maneuver. When you do so, you may set aside your free tag to have the target suffer a weapon 0 attack with an accuracy equal to the roll you made to create the Aspect each exchange for as long as the Aspect lasts. Endurance is used to defend against these attacks. You may only create one specific Aspect with this upgrade; usually it's POISONED, but it can also be something like ON FIRE or ACCELERATED AGEING.
Eh, I don't like it. I'll try again later. Meanwhile, if more people have opinions on the questions I asked they should feel free to speak up.
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Agreed. Unless the PC has taken some Strength powers as well, she would be better off with just Channeling(Spirit) anyway. Breath Weapon is ridiculously overpriced at [-2] refresh.
I think it might be because you can kill people with it and not worry about becoming a Lawbreaker.
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I think it might be because you can kill people with it and not worry about becoming a Lawbreaker.
Still overpriced, especially since the player can always say how his enemy is taken out. In this case, it's a simple KO. And nothing prevents him/an ally to slit that enemy's throat afterwards.
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And a fifth question. When should the poison attacks happen?
Right before the victim acts? Right after? At the start of the exchange? Some other time?
This is making me remember why I kept putting off writing this upgrade.
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I'd have the damage tick at the start of the attacker's turn. If nothing else, it allows that players actions to stay in that player's turn.
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Sounds like a plan.
So, I think I'm going to go with no tag, attack accuracy equal to skill, zone poison with a second upgrade, attacks triggered during the attackers turn, and stacking of poison Aspects with stacking of the poison effect.
You know, without the free tag it doesn't seem worth 2 Refresh. The effect is something I'd often allow with a tag-for-effect anyway.
Think it'd be reasonable to make Venomous Weaponry cost 1?
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I'd be very hesitant to see this at 1 refresh.
Extra actions are a big deal, and that's what this amounts to.
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You have a point.
I think I'll include a free tag, though. Otherwise it's basically just permission to make a specific non-broken Invoke in all situations, which doesn't seem worth 2 Refresh.
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Taking an extra action every round for the remainder of a scene or until your enemy is taken out is a pretty potent invoke for someone who hasn't spent refresh on it. Probably more potent than I'd generally allow.
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I'm with Tedronai on this one. You effectively attack twice, with poisonous claws. I'd just make it a maneuver before anything else. Either use the free tag to initiate the attack part of the poison, or just tag the poison aspect like any other aspect.
You could split it into two powers each worth one refresh, one to create a poison effect, the other to allow tagging that effect for a lasting attack.
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I would not charge refresh for the ability to place a 'poisoned' aspect without the additional ability to tag/invoke that aspect to instigate the poison attacks. The most I would charge for that ability would be an appropriate character aspect.
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Hmm, then maybe give it a +2 to place that aspect, similar to how incite emotion works.
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That would not be unreasonable, given that the roll does not benefit from the +2 weapon value that is a prerequisite for the ability.
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On that thought, couldn't it work precisely like incite emotion? Grant +2 for maneuvers and let you make blocks based on venom (paralyzed) with fists. Since you can make blocks already, that would not really be that much more. I just like reducing powers to a common denominator.
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That would rather eliminate the entire 'strike and release' flavour of the power, unfortunately.
Of course, if some player wanted to use Incite Effect flavoured as an envenomed bite/claw/etc, I wouldn't try to stop them, but I do think there is a place for the Venomous power as it stands.
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Taking an extra action every round for the remainder of a scene or until your enemy is taken out is a pretty potent invoke for someone who hasn't spent refresh on it. Probably more potent than I'd generally allow.
The fact that you have to spend your extra action on a weapon 0 attack against a specific enemy is a pretty serious drawback, though.
On that thought, couldn't it work precisely like incite emotion? Grant +2 for maneuvers and let you make blocks based on venom (paralyzed) with fists. Since you can make blocks already, that would not really be that much more. I just like reducing powers to a common denominator.
You could use Incite Effect to represent poison, certainly.
But since Incite Effect doesn't do damage over time, people who want to do damage over time will still need Venomous.
Maybe instead of offering the tag, we could let the poison's strength be equal to the roll made to inflict it. That could get pretty incredibly lethal if the user spends Fate Points on their poison maneuvers, but given how much it costs to do that it's probably okay. Venomous Weaponry costs as much as Evocation, after all.
And maybe we could waive the surcharge for area poisoning. Might as well be generous, if we're dropping the tag.
Okay, how's this look?
NATURAL WEAPONRY [-1]
Description: Your body contains or can produce some kind of weapon or attack.
Note: You have to define what your natural weapons are when you take this power.
Skills Affected: Fists, Weapons, Guns, Discipline
Effects:
Natural Weaponry. Your body contains a weapon with a rating of 2. This weapon has a no range, is not capable of spray attacks, benefits from Strength powers, and is wielded with the Fists skill.
Potent Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a rating of 4.
Summoned Weaponry [-0]. You must take a supplemental action to create or draw your natural weapon before you can use it. In addition, you may wield your natural weapon with the Weapons skill.
Ranged Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a range of three zones and is capable of spray attacks. It may be wielded with the Fists, Weapons, Guns, or Discipline skill. It cannot be used with the defence trapping of Weapons unless you possess the Summoned Weaponry upgrade.
Area Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon may be used to make zonewide attacks.
Selective Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Area Weaponry) You do not harm yourself when making a zonewide attack against your own zone with your natural weapon.
Explosive Weaponry [+1]. (Requires Area Weaponry) Your natural weapon may not be used to make attacks that are not zone-wide.
Imprecise Weaponry [+1]. (Requires Selective Weaponry) You suffer a -2 penalty to the accuracy of any zonewide attack that you make with your natural weapon.
Venomous Weaponry [-2]. You may use your natural weapon to perform special maneuvers. These maneuvers may only inflict one specific Aspect; usually it's POISONED, but it can also be something like ON FIRE or ACCELERATED AGEING if that fits your character better. You may not tag that Aspect, but during your turn in each exchange after the one you performed the special maneuver in each character with that Aspect suffers a weapon 0 physical attack against Endurance with an accuracy equal to the roll you created the Aspect with. You may perform these special maneuvers against every character in a zone, including yourself, if you possess the Area Weaponry upgrade. Outside of a conflict, the effects of these maneuvers are adjudicated by the GM. But as a general rule, they're quickly fatal.
I'm actually fairly happy with this, but it's the middle of the night so that might just be sleep deprivation talking.
Also, I made one or two slight alterations to the Power's wording that having nothing to do with the new upgrade. Just in case you care.
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You could use Incite Effect to represent poison, certainly.
But since Incite Effect doesn't do damage over time, people who want to do damage over time will still need Venomous.
I was still thinking of splitting it into 2 powers each worth one refresh, and have one power similar to incite emotion, the other granting the damage over time effect as a trade in for the tag on the aspect.
Maybe give the defender a chance to shrug off the poison, if his endurance roll is higher than the poison roll, when he defends against the poisons effect? That would make the poison a bit more tame, while at the same time making maneuvering with it more interesting.
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I actually wrote the Power to include that possibility. Temporary Aspects from maneuvers can be cancelled out by other maneuvers, and the damage only lasts as long as the Aspect does.
What you're saying about your idea sounds remarkably similar to offering a 1 Refresh Venomous upgrade to Incite Effect, with a requirement that Fists be the skill used. I think that might be a bit too strong if you make the poison attack strength equal to the maneuver result. That +2 bonus would be a big deal.
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So, should I call this done?
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I was thinking of coming up with an alternative to the damage over time effect, because I just don't like it (for the same reason I don't like DoT spells). Maybe modeling it after "Drink Blood" from the Blood Drinker power over on the vampirism list. Would give a nice edge over poisoned victims, while conserving the action economy.
Other than that, it seems done. And this might be a topic for another day.