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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: studer on December 05, 2012, 01:05:32 AM

Title: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: studer on December 05, 2012, 01:05:32 AM
A Pure Mortal gets a +2 Refresh for having no powers. All the other Templates have less restrictions on what Powers they can buy and how much they can spend buying them. Should the Minor Talent Template perhaps receive a +1 Refresh to compensate for these limitations?
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: Locnil on December 05, 2012, 02:20:46 AM
What restrictions did the template have? afb atm, or I'd check.
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: Blackknight1239 on December 05, 2012, 02:27:31 AM
What restrictions did the template have? afb atm, or I'd check.

The template allows a single supernatural power of -1 refresh (-2 with approval), and the GM is encouraged to make the power in the Psychic or Minor categories.

It does seem like the short end of the stick for the minor talent; I'd almost just give them the power for free, if they're not allowed any more fancy toys.
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: Locnil on December 05, 2012, 02:31:00 AM
Ah. Then yes, it is rather underpowered. Though not really relevant, since most people won't insist on sticking to the templates anyway.
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: UmbraLux on December 05, 2012, 02:43:27 AM
Templates are just starting points.  You can (and possibly should) grow out of them.  Look at how the characters grow and change through the novels...
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on December 05, 2012, 02:46:30 AM
Then again, the RAW says to use templates.

Richard
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: Locnil on December 05, 2012, 03:16:30 AM
But does it say to stick to them throughout?
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: UmbraLux on December 05, 2012, 03:29:49 AM
@Richard:  Yep...in the character creation & template section.  Not mentioned at all under advancement.  ;)

Also we have several examples of characters having grown beyond (or never met) any single template.  Vampires who can cast spells.  Wizards who use many types of sponsored magic.  Apprentice (former) wizards with only thaumaturgy.  And probably a few others I've forgotten.
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: admiralducksauce on December 05, 2012, 04:07:04 AM
Then again, the RAW says to use templates.

Richard

Hehehe, the RAW's more like... guidelines (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b6kgS_AwuH0#t=20s). :)
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: studer on December 05, 2012, 04:50:51 PM
admiralducksauce: RAW?

All: I agree about going free-form instead of Templates, but that's no reason not to fix them. Not all games are Templateless.
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: Haru on December 05, 2012, 05:06:39 PM
I think generally, the "weaker" templates are there as entry points at lower levels. For example, you could take a minor talent and progressively upgrade it through focused practitioner over sorcerer to wizard. Pretty much like channeling and ritual are gone entirely, once you take the upgrade to evocation or thamaturgy.

So yes, it is weak, but only because it is one of the templates that will mostly be there at the lower powered end. They will either upgrade or stay out of the major supernatural conflicts (for the most part, anyway).

Also, I agree with the 'guidelines' character of the templates. Thanks for the video, admiral  ;D
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: Lavecki121 on December 05, 2012, 06:15:30 PM
admiralducksauce: RAW?
Rules As Written

All: I agree about going free-form instead of Templates, but that's no reason not to fix them. Not all games are Templateless.
And there is no reason for them not to be. However it is the choice of the player as well as the idea of the character. A minor talent player has chosen that concept and has the ability to upgrade their character per normal rules. There is nothing restricting them from gaining more supernatural powers.
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 05, 2012, 08:52:29 PM
I think players take weak templates because they've created weak characters and need templates that fit them.

Nobody makes a character whose only Power is Mana Static because the Minor Talent Template says they have to, they make a character whose only Power is Mana Static because that's the character they want. Then they pick the Minor Talent Template because it works for their character. (At least, that's what I do. And I assume others do something similar.)

So it's okay if a given template is really weak. It won't make a character underpowered if it wasn't already.
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: Lavecki121 on December 06, 2012, 04:12:10 PM
I think thats what I was trying to say.
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: JDK002 on December 06, 2012, 08:05:03 PM
I think players take weak templates because they've created weak characters and need templates that fit them.

Nobody makes a character whose only Power is Mana Static because the Minor Talent Template says they have to, they make a character whose only Power is Mana Static because that's the character they want. Then they pick the Minor Talent Template because it works for their character. (At least, that's what I do. And I assume others do something similar.)

So it's okay if a given template is really weak. It won't make a character underpowered if it wasn't already.
Seconded.  None of my players even looked at the templates when they made their characters.  They made the characters they wanted to play and found what template fit best.  None of us are power gamers, so it didn't really matter if any of them were under or over powered.

We ended up with a nice mix.  An Emissary of Power who's power source is a sadistically annoying trickster demon, a socially awkward Pyromancer who's unsure and insecure about her power, a White Council wizard who's a recruiter for the war with the Red Court, a Scion of a fallen angel (changeling template) who works for the mortal mafia, and a morally ambiguious pure mortal who aquired and sells rare supernatural items.

Incidentally, this was also how I determined the refresh level of the game.
Title: Re: Is the Minor Talent Template underpowered?
Post by: JosephKell on December 09, 2012, 11:12:26 PM
Stunts and powers are great when you are able to use them often.  If a session is heavily focused on investigating scenes and interviewing suspects, how useful are Supernatural Recovery, Speed, Strength, and Toughness?

But there are also some minor talent abilities that do stuff other powers don't and have the capacity to break the game.  Like Psychometry or Cassandra's Tears.  For example, the Police Detective sees a dripping blood path, but the Psychic Forensic Analyst brushes one of the dry spots and sees a man with a limp holding a bleeding arm.

Obviously DNA testing can identify the gender of the suspect, but DNA testing takes days/weeks (and in many labs months because of the massive back log).  But being able to get such a clue quickly makes a huge difference in closing a case (people that are hurt bad tend to get worse fast if not treated and missing people tend to stay lost if not found early on).

To me, a stunt/power is worth the lost fate point(s) if you get to use it at least once a given "refresh" period (in DFRPG it is each scenario, in Fate Core it is each session).  A Fate Point equals +2 on an invoke.  Stunt is +2 on a specific usage.  So, like I said, if you get to use it once per time you get your fate points refreshed/reset, the stunt paid for itself.

But Fate Points used to Invoke or pay off compels are more flexible than stunts, so in a given refresh period, it is easier to "get your money's worth" (which is one reason I lot Fate Core's lower refresh, but refresh each session rule, as it makes it easier to encourage players to not horde points).

In that sense, Minor Talent (just like for Pure Mortal) can be strong.  (Especially in new Fate Core since you can choose to invoke AFTER you roll, so having those "if I need them +2s" from fate points in reserve is pretty sweet.)

However, if a Werebear with Inhuman Strength and Claws is getting into two or three fights each session, it is hard to argue that those 3 refresh worth of powers aren't getting WAY more than their money's worth (Weapon:4 on each attack).  But those are still shifts dependent on success.  So the character may have to use more actions setting up maneuvers instead of just "buying" success by invoking a bunch of things.