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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Lavecki121 on November 20, 2012, 09:57:14 PM

Title: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 20, 2012, 09:57:14 PM
Ok so I am trying to figure out how to do this. I wanted to make do an attack that would temporarialy prevent a wizard from using thier magic. I talked this over with some people on here already and theorized that it could be made as a magic attack against their mental track and it wouldnt impose a lawbreaker because it only stands to prevent them from using those shifts as opposed to enthraling or entering thier mind.

Thoughts? Have I explained this well?
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 20, 2012, 10:05:55 PM
Whether or not something qualifies as Lawbreaking depends quite a lot on the narration of the event, and quite a lot less on the mechanical representation.
In other words, how does this 'attack' prevent their spellcasting narratively?
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 20, 2012, 10:17:02 PM
A Block or an Aspect Compel would seem the easiest ways to do this, to me.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 20, 2012, 10:19:56 PM
Whether or not something qualifies as Lawbreaking depends quite a lot on the narration of the event, and quite a lot less on the mechanical representation.
In other words, how does this 'attack' prevent their spellcasting narratively?
Narratively, the end goal of the attack is to prevent their spellcasting. By dealing the stress to the Mental stress track it would innitially limit their attacks, since mechanically that is where spellcasters draw magic power from.

The narrative end goal is to stop their magic temporarially though. Yes.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 20, 2012, 10:24:27 PM
I don't think that's a good idea.

Not only are magical mental attacks dangerous balance-wise, they don't actually prevent spellcasting. They make Evocation more painful, but they don't actually make it un-usable. Thaumaturgy is almost completely unaffected.

And if the spellcasting is represented mechanically through a non-Spellcasting Power, this method will fail entirely.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 20, 2012, 10:56:03 PM
I'd go with a block. If the wizard can't beat it with a discipline roll, he can't use his magic.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 20, 2012, 11:01:04 PM
I'd go with a block. If the wizard can't beat it with a discipline roll, he can't use his magic.
That seems a consensus. Could a block be an over arcing thing? Could I put a block on someone that inhibits all actions or does it have to be specified to magic, movement or the like?

I am not very familiar with block rules.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 20, 2012, 11:04:21 PM
Most blocks don't inhibit all actions. A grapple is the exception. If you're not familiar with the block rules, I recommend reading them over.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 20, 2012, 11:14:12 PM
I shall be doing this
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 20, 2012, 11:49:25 PM
Whether or not something qualifies as Lawbreaking depends quite a lot on the narration of the event, and quite a lot less on the mechanical representation.
In other words, how does this 'attack' prevent their spellcasting narratively?

He would be using the equivalent of Pressure points/ misaligning chakra's etc.. to cut off a wizards access to his/her magic.  This may or may not have long term consequences (such as needing reiki to realign one's energies).

Mechanically, the easiest way to represent this is by doing mental stress.  I don't really see it as a Lawbreaker.

Obviously, blocks and Maneuvers work well but Blocks/aspects only last, at most, a scene...which doesn't carry the same narrative effects.

I'd suggested making it a spell that only affects wizards/those who can cast magic and thus not work against regular mortals, or other creatures that have toughness powers but no magic.  So you couldn't use it to take out a troll, for instance.

They would defend against this attack by whatever means they use to either control or call up their magic.  I'd probably make it whatever skill they use to Call up their magic...so Conviction, or if a magical creature uses Endurance instead of Conviction, they'd use Endurance to defend.  So they'd almost always be defending with one of their best spellcasting skills...

My 2 cents, anyways.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 21, 2012, 03:08:30 AM
I think this is part of the "A wizard can do anything with enough preparation" thing. Judging from the books, shutting down a wizards power is a full time job. Harry does this to Kravos, Ebenezar does this to Mavra, both have to keep their full concentration on the other to make it work.

I think a good way to do this would be a thaumaturgy maneuver placed on the target before going into the scene (that can, of course, be resisted), and then tagging it to go into a discipline grapple (affecting magic in this case, not physical actions). Both the blocking wizard and the blocked wizard will be unable to cast any other spells, as long as the grapple is kept up, but if the blocked wizard can break free, you can't regrapple him, because the spell is broken.
It is not too powerful, I think, most wizards will have similar skill levels there. It is also not too weak, because it gets the job done. It is not too boring, because it keeps the struggle for power up throughout the scene, instead of shutting the wizard down with one spell.

Or you can go, of course with a simple thaumaturgy block, which will still get the job done, but I find rather boring. Plus, it has a fixed number of shifts, and is vulnerable against a good roll and some tags, while the above can be modified as need, too.

I don't really like the mental attack thing though, it seems much more drastic somehow.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 21, 2012, 03:46:42 AM
I'm not convinced that the narrative provided by Taran would qualify as inflicting mental stress, and the narrative provided by Lavecki...well...wasn't narrative.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 21, 2012, 04:41:48 AM
I'm not convinced that the narrative provided by Taran would qualify as inflicting mental stress, and the narrative provided by Lavecki...well...wasn't narrative.

Sorry, I don't get what you mean.  You don't think the narrative justifies making it a mental attack?  What would you suggest?

I like The grapple, but it's definitely a different feel. 
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Ellipsis on November 21, 2012, 04:47:19 AM
I posted this in the other thread, but a simple offensive block vs spellcasting would work fine.  The control roll would have to beat the block before they could cast, effectively either preventing them from casting or gimping the spell.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 21, 2012, 04:49:27 AM
Mental stress represents your sanity, your sense of self, and your will.

Pressure points have nothing to do with any of that, and so pushing them should not inflict mental stress. Pushing them would be a good justification for using Fists for a Block against magic use, though.

Now that I think about it, pressure point stuff seems like good stunt territory.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 21, 2012, 05:17:02 AM
Sanct covered my issues re: narrative / mental stress sufficiently well.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 21, 2012, 03:29:02 PM
I like the idea of the thaumaturgically-justified grapple. With that method, you could also put on a bunch of aspects through the casting to tag and invoke to keep the upper hand in the event of a wayward roll.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on November 21, 2012, 03:49:17 PM
Note that without a specific power or stunt, these are all outside the realm of evocation.  Others have implied this, but I thought that should be made clear.

I had a villain who instilled a magical block with earth evocation.  He created a series of wide circles (threshold, which I let him treat as armor, so half spell strength effect).  If the characters cast through it, or walked through it, their power was limited (spell effect shifts were reduced by a number of shifts equal to the threshold value).
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 21, 2012, 04:08:12 PM
Well the thing is he is a close range practitioner. So he can only do magic at close range. What I wanted was for him to hit something equivilent to Chakra points and disrupt the flow of magic. He also only has channeling and no thaumaturgy.

I originally tried to do this but it was voted that it would be too complicated:
Place a block on the mental stress track so that the mental stress couldnt be used for magic abilities such as backlash or activiation.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 21, 2012, 09:45:00 PM
Block on the mental stress track? What's that?

Regardless, a simple offensive block spell that blocks magical actions but not mundane ones ought to work just fine. I would allow that with Evocation, personally, but I can see why some people might not.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 21, 2012, 10:01:45 PM
Block on the mental stress track? What's that?

Was an idea I came up with that is like "i deal 8 stress" instead of dealing actual stress. They cant use that stress for abilities, but can still take that stress for attacks
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 22, 2012, 01:17:07 AM
Was an idea I came up with that is like "i deal 8 stress" instead of dealing actual stress. They cant use that stress for abilities, but can still take that stress for attacks

That's not a thing you can do. 
Blocks prevent actions  Such as casting a spell.  Filling a stress box, however, is not an action.
Even if you DID manage to 'block' those stress boxes, they'd still be able to 'roll up' any spent stress into higher boxes, or even consequences, if they felt like it.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 22, 2012, 03:07:25 AM
Yeah, I see what you're saying Lavecki, block the filling of stress tracks for offensive use but allow the filling of it for defensive use.  I think it should just be kept simple though, do mental stress damage and actually fill in the stress box, or just block the actions your opponent could take that would fill in those stress boxes.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 22, 2012, 05:11:25 AM
So from what I gather it seems like the block is the ideal solution, other than the fact that it isn't a long term concept.

I think the old adage "There's more than one way to skin a cat" is fairly appropriate here. If you want a short-term quickly applied solution, then a block is ideal. If you want to remove their ability over the long term deal physical stress (as you are physically striking them) and then find appropriate consequences (which can be invoked to prevent casting) when they are inflicted. At the most extreme case one could alter aspects as the result of a take out/concession.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 22, 2012, 05:22:48 AM
Well, yeah.  The reason the thread was created was to find out quick in combat solutions to complicating spellslinging for casters.  In particular the options of a Spirit Channeling martial artist.

Because of Spirit's flexibility it isn't really unbelievable to imagine a caster could utilize it to hit the mental stress track, or set up a block on Discipline for preventing spellcasting.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 22, 2012, 08:34:43 AM
find appropriate consequences (which can be invoked to prevent casting) when they are inflicted.

The problem here being that Consequences are chosen by the player of the target, not by the player of the attacker.  The most you can do on that front is to flavour your attack to bias consequences in the general direction of consequences you would find desireable, and then hope for the best.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 22, 2012, 06:36:48 PM
Because of Spirit's flexibility it isn't really unbelievable to imagine a caster could utilize it to hit the mental stress track,...
Not unbelievable, just unfair. And in this case, narratively inappropriate.
...or set up a block on Discipline for preventing spellcasting.
You don't set up blocks on skills. That's not how blocks work.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 23, 2012, 05:06:07 AM
Yeah, I'm a little rusty on Block mechanics myself.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 23, 2012, 01:33:41 PM
Not unbelievable, just unfair. And in this case, narratively inappropriate.

I dont believe that it is unfair. Mental stress doesn't come up that much (at least in my games) unless you are a caster. The fact that I am cutting off their magic, which they need mental stress track to do, is why I suggested it. So it does make narrative sense.

That being said. The block is probably the easiest way to do this. This would allow me to use the block on different targets. (restrict magic on caster, movement on brutes ect).
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 23, 2012, 01:38:00 PM
I dont believe that it is unfair. Mental stress doesn't come up that much (at least in my games) unless you are a caster. The fact that I am cutting off their magic, which they need mental stress track to do, is why I suggested it. So it does make narrative sense.
No, that's what makes it make a little bit of mechanical sense.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 23, 2012, 02:46:23 PM
I dont believe thats right. Its the mechanical backing for the narrative effect. It makes sense mechanically because it will still mimic what I am going for narratively.

Either way I have decided to go with a block anyway so it is moot.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 23, 2012, 11:13:04 PM
I dont believe that it is unfair.

Doesn't matter whether you believe it. It remains true.

Mental stress bypasses worn armour and pretty much all defensive Powers. It more or less does what All Creatures Are Equal Before God does, plus it changes around the skills used to defend.

Take a look at Our World, and think about how each character would handle a mental evocation. You'll notice that many of them, including supposedly tough characters like Sue and the Loup-Garou, get crushed.

As for the narrative thing, normally inflicting psychological trauma with Spirit is reasonable enough. But not if your spell is narrated as a pressure point jab.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 23, 2012, 11:22:29 PM
It's more than a pressure point jab.  It's evocation through fists.  It's disrupting the flow of energy that the wizard draws on to cast his spells.

There are many physical things that have a spiritual aspect to them: acupuncture, Tai CHi, meditation.  All these things are done to manipulate the energy around and in a person.

Cutting off a wizards source of power is mental stress.  It's affecting the wizards very being, their sense of identity- their magic.

I see it working fine in a narrative sense.  I like it because, narratively, this couldn't affect Sue or the Loup-Garou because it could only be used on casters.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 23, 2012, 11:37:17 PM
Actually, that's just another problem. Having Powers swing massively in power based on narrative conceits is generally a bad idea. That's what Compels are for.

If you really must write a narratively limited Power, use Limitation or another source of game-by-game costing.

Oh, and even if you accept the extremely-sketchy claim that you can damage people psychologically with acupuncture, you still have the pretty serious issue that inflicting mental stress doesn't really prevent spellcasting.

So you filled my third stress box and gave me a mild consequence, huh? Guess I'll have to cast my spell exactly the way I was planning to anyway, since I still have three empty stress boxes.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 24, 2012, 12:21:05 AM
One of the sample spells in YS requires you to tag a "tree aspect" in order to entangle people and prevent  movement.  So without that narrative aspect you can't cast the spell.

This spell requires a spell casting aspect.  If we want to get technical, we can make it the same as above and say that the person has to make an assessment on the target to tag an aspect that relates to their casting ability.

Filling the 3rd stress box doesn't prevent spell casting, it hampers spell casting.  Now instead of using a box, the caster has to use a consequence.  It's requiring more and more effort on the spellcasters part to cast each spell.  He has less boxes to choose from, that hampers casting.

I also don't think I'm making sketchy claims.  By that token were-wolves running around is sketchy.  It's a game about the supernatural where mundane things have extraordinary connetations.

I have a friend who suffers migranes.  They affect her mood, her personality, make her tired and unable to do the typical things most people do, like go out on a sunny day.  That affects a person on an emotional level.  She's tried medications and a lot of other things but the only thing she says works is her weekly visit to have someone do reike.

Take it for whatever you want it to be.  Maybe it's a placebo, but in a game where magic exists, things like that are magic.

EDIT:  I left the computer and thought about it some more.

IF you require an aspect to tag (by declaring/guessing/assessing) - an aspect indicating that your target is a spell caster - then it limits how much you can attack doing mental stress.  The first one would be a free tag, but every attack after that would require a FP.

It certainly makes it a lot less OP, if that's your concern.

Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 24, 2012, 02:30:46 AM
I'm with sancta here. I have a really hard time with a punch altering how I see myself or the world (on its own anyway). And if you cause a consequence, someone needs to go to a councilor or psychiatrist to fix it? You have to admit that is a bit off.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 24, 2012, 02:46:42 AM
I'm with sancta here. I have a really hard time with a punch altering how I see myself or the world (on its own anyway). And if you cause a consequence, someone needs to go to a councilor or psychiatrist to fix it? You have to admit that is a bit off.

You're looking at it the wrong way.  You don't need a psychiatrist, you need someone who can re-adjust your energy so that you have access to your magic.  You have the consequence "misaligned chakra's" or something that a GM can compel to make you screw up spells.  It's a spirit evocation.  How does blasting someone with your mind make any more narrative sense?  I want to play a psionisist.  I use spirit evocations and deal mental stress.  It makes sense because it's "mind magic"?  It's a pretty common trope but makes less sense to me than what 's been suggested already.

Anyways, I know people's hang-ups on dealing mental stress, so I don't even want to get into it. 

EDIT:  Since I'm not insane
http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Chi_blocking

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PressurePoint
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 24, 2012, 03:27:02 AM
I totally understand the concept and it's one I've played with myself, but mental stress isn't chi or any kind of energy for that matter. Mental stress is one's concept of self. You damage someone's mental stress track by changing who they are, not how they behave or what they can do physically, but what they believe. Mental stress is dealt by torture, mental trauma or spells that alter the very psyche of a person. Mental consequences are almost always repaired in the care of a psychologist. It just doesn't fit to me.

You're doing something physical that alters someone's physical body and the energy running through it. In the same way that a sleep spell deals physical stress or suffocation deals physical stress, so too would this.

As for the issue that the defender makes the consequence, they must make a consequence that fits the attack. If they make a consequence that is not related to energy disruption, then you didn't hit them. That's how it works, and it's fine.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 24, 2012, 03:34:33 AM
I don't understand how one's sense of self does not translate to a spiritual nature, ie: their soul or life energy.  Why does it have to be a psychiatrist?  Why not a priest or shaman?

*sigh*  It's just one of these debates I don't want to be having.  I concede.  I actually conceded in my last post, then edited it.  :P
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 24, 2012, 03:51:34 AM
Conceding never leads to good discourse. Please, fully explain your side so that I may understand it (even if I disagree).

To be honest I've simply always seen chi as a physical concept. Linked to the spiritual to be sure, but ultimately actual physical energy like light or heat. To repair one's chi one must heal or see a doctor who will physically repair it (albeit a different kind of doctor). Thants a significant part of my problem with this.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 24, 2012, 04:11:52 AM
I see chi as spiritual energy so it's tied to the soul.  When the body dies, that energy is released.  The spirit goes wherever it's gonna go...spiritually speaking, to heaven or wherever.  I don't see magic as an intellectual thing I see it as a more emotional/spiritual thing (from how it's explained in the novels).

Psychological damage, to me, is more of an intellectual thing.  It's the brain/chemicals coping with trauma - physical or emotional.

So while I see torture causing mental stress and therfore requiring a psychologist helping someone to work through their problems, I also see spiritual damage being caused by things that can manipulate that spiritual energy(which could also be torture).  But you'd need magical/spiritual council to heal those consequences.  They are 2 sides of the same coin, and that coin is the mental stress track.

It seems like the biggest wall here is the delivery system.  If I said that I pointed my finger and delivered an 3 shift mental evocation using spirit from 2 zones away, which is implied (I don't want to get into that debate) to be legal in the rules, then many people would be fine with that.  The fact that the character is delivering that exact same evocation through a fist attack makes it seem less "realistic".  And the only reason he can use fists instead of discipline is because he took a stunt.
 
I don't see how staring at someone and making their brain bleed is any more realistic.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 24, 2012, 05:29:17 AM
If someone says to me that they 'fire off a mental evocation', or whatever, I'd be asking them what that evocation is trying to DO.  And 'deal mental stress' doesn't qualify as an appropriate answer, here.

It's not the fact that it's being delivered 'through a fists attack' that makes it seem 'less realistic' to me, it's the explanation of HOW it's dealing the stress: by interfering with the flow of energies.  Such interference, to me, does not seem to justify mental stress.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 24, 2012, 08:51:32 PM
So far as I'm concerned, the whole connection between chi and mental health sounds like a religion I don't follow. Therefore, sketchy.

One of the sample spells in YS requires you to tag a "tree aspect" in order to entangle people and prevent  movement.  So without that narrative aspect you can't cast the spell.

...

EDIT:  I left the computer and thought about it some more.

IF you require an aspect to tag (by declaring/guessing/assessing) - an aspect indicating that your target is a spell caster - then it limits how much you can attack doing mental stress.  The first one would be a free tag, but every attack after that would require a FP.

It certainly makes it a lot less OP, if that's your concern.

The tree spell is a single rote. It's not a whole class of spells. If you don't have a tree handy you can just cast a different spell.

This is different. It makes spellcasting way more powerful against spellcasters than against anyone else. That's not good.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: UmbraLux on November 24, 2012, 09:54:39 PM
So far as I'm concerned, the whole connection between chi and mental health sounds like a religion I don't follow. Therefore, sketchy.
Not relevant.  We're talking about a setting with wizards, werewolves, fomor, dragons, vampires, and even mythical gods.  Adding the concept of chi isn't exactly a stretch.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 24, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
Adding any concept about chi isn't really a stretch either because magic can do anything you believe it can.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 24, 2012, 10:04:22 PM
Having proper chi flow be essential to people's mental health is totally a stretch.

It'd be like revealing that everything in the universe is actually composed of Fire, Earth, Air, and Water in accordance with classical Greek theories.

It assumes that a specific mystical belief is actually The Real Big Truth behind The Way Things Work.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 24, 2012, 10:11:15 PM
And yet if a caster believes that's the way things work, it does.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 24, 2012, 10:13:23 PM
This isn't Mage, y'know. A wizard can't atheist away the existence of God.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 24, 2012, 10:45:39 PM
Hah, no I know, but this is one of those areas that is a lot more uncertain and open to personal interpretations.  Physical health absolutely has an effect on mental health and vice versa.  Chi is a physical energy, but it's also a spiritual energy, magic works the same way, it's life force but it can be turned into fireballs.  Pressure points and chakras, etc are externally accessible points on a person that affect this energy.  So a person trained to hit or manipulate that energy in others by hitting their pressure points, it's just their paradigm.  Another caster wouldn't need to do that if he hadn't been trained that way. And using spirit that way is appropriate because its the magic of the will.  Now, whether or not that's overpowered is another question.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: UmbraLux on November 24, 2012, 10:52:23 PM
It assumes that a specific mystical belief is actually The Real Big Truth behind The Way Things Work.
Close but not quite.  Butcher does a good job of pulling together many myths, putting his own spin on them, and stirring up a good story.  What you're objecting to is simply one more myth and one more interpretation of many.

Butcher's core 'presumption' is not "one mystical truth" so much as "perception is reality".  Actually, "perception shapes reality" may be a better description.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 25, 2012, 01:09:15 AM
Having proper chi flow be essential to people's mental health is totally a stretch.

It'd be like revealing that everything in the universe is actually composed of Fire, Earth, Air, and Water in accordance with classical Greek theories.

It assumes that a specific mystical belief is actually The Real Big Truth behind The Way Things Work.

Is this turning into a philosophical debate over what is the Truths of the Universe?  If so, this really isn't going to go anywhere since there's no proof one way or another how the universe works.  How do you know that chi isn't essential to a persons mental health?  Can you prove it one way or the other?  Maybe I beleive that Universe works based on the Classical Greek theories.  There are people who beleive that the flow of chi is essential to people's mental health.  Who are you to tell me one beleif is more valid than another?  Calling my ideas sketchy is just another way of saying my ideas are stupid and it's an outright insult.

The point is there is a lot of mythology/literature/media/philosophy revolving around a persons energy.  This makes the idea as valid a concept as anything else in dresden.  It's a universe where every myth has a basis in reality.


EDIT:  Regarding the Tree rote.  This spell was being designed as a rote, not a class of spells.  It would be a power "x" mental attack targeted with fists.

Also note that it isn't making it spellcasting more deadly against spell casters as they'd be defending with their, mostly likely, highest skills:  conviction or discipline.

If I was to target a caster with a spell, I'd be more likely to want to target their endurance or athletics.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 25, 2012, 02:11:17 AM
If someone says to me that they 'fire off a mental evocation', or whatever, I'd be asking them what that evocation is trying to DO.  And 'deal mental stress' doesn't qualify as an appropriate answer, here.

It's not the fact that it's being delivered 'through a fists attack' that makes it seem 'less realistic' to me, it's the explanation of HOW it's dealing the stress: by interfering with the flow of energies.  Such interference, to me, does not seem to justify mental stress.

With a touch the energy pulses out from my palm into my opponent.  Like a small detonation weakening a mountainside, the flow of the wizards energy is stymmied.  The wizard, reaching down for his power realizes, with fear, that his reserves have been ever so slightly depleted.  The constant torrent of energy that makes him a powerful force of nature has been reduced to a steady flow.
Fear creeps in knowing that another hit could bring his reserves to a trickle.  There is hesitation and doubt as he realizes that his connection to his power could be disconnected permanently - that the very thing that makes him extraordinary is slowly being locked away.

Doubt, fear, hesitation, helplessness all rooted from the wizards slow disconnect from his magic.

Maybe you disagree but it sounds like mental stress to me.

Or

I make fire.  It comes out of my fingertips.  It does lots of damage.

Physical damage is just easier to quantify.  No need to wax poetic.  People rarely ask, "but HOW do you make fire out of your fingertips?"  or  "how does the fire burn the target?"  It just does.  It's a fire evocation.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 25, 2012, 03:35:39 AM
I think I have pinned one of the things that bothers me about it.

Butcher seems to descrbe the fueling of a spell being less about power or energy and more about throwing one's self into it. Harry fuels his spells with anger, passion, heck I believe he has even fueled a spell with tiredness. That's right, Harry fuels a spell with a lack of energy. That seems antithetical to how I understand chi to funtion. Chi is an energy, and as I understand it, you can't fuel a chi working with a lack of chi. That inconsistency bugs me.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on November 25, 2012, 05:46:53 AM
My issue with this entire thing is actually pretty simple:

You're trying to prevent an action (casting a spell). 

Blocks exist specifically to prevent actions.

But you don't want to use a block.  THIS here is where the whole thing gets fishy for me. 

Attacks don't prevent actions, they damage your opponent in some way.  If you're trying to say that you're breaking down his connections to his magic, I'd buy it.  But you're not.  You're very clearly trying to do what chi-blockers do on the Avatar cartoons.  That comes off as a block (with a specific duration).  But you don't want to block.

Whenever I'm GMing and I have a player who wants to do something that there's a rule for, or pretty much a rule for, but wants to do it using different rules, I assume they're either trying to pull something over on me (like bypassing Toughness powers and the majority of the defensive capabilities of OW, in this case), or they just don't understand the rules.

I'm not sure which it is, so let me be clear.  IF YOU'RE TRYING TO PREVENT AN ACTION, USE A BLOCK.  Maybe a maneuver to place an aspect you can compel for effect.  But blocks were designed for this type of action.  It's how the system works.

I don't care what justification you're trying to use for mental stress, it's starting to seem like you really do know how powerful dealing mental stress is and want "the forums" to tell you it's okay and reasonable. 

I'll say it one last time.

USE A BLOCK.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 25, 2012, 06:16:15 AM
Meh, there is one issue with using a block. A non-thaumaturgy block has a maximum duration of a scene (and usually lasts quite a bit shorter). If you want a longer lasting effect and you don't have thaumaturgy, then the only solution is consequences. Of course as Tedronai has pointed out, that's a poor solution too.

Thinking about it this way, I think there just isn't any good option that can reliably do what you want within RAW. A consequence is the only long term solution, and it's not something you can guarantee. The block is something you can guarantee, but it doesn't have any duration.

Maybe the best solution would be evothaum. A thaumaturgy block can last like you want.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 25, 2012, 06:27:27 AM
...Who are you to tell me one beleif is more valid than another?...

This is my issue, more or less.

The mental stress with chi thing only makes sense if you buy into a particular belief. So having it work tells people that that belief is more valid than any other (in-game), on account of being true (in-game).

The word sketchy is not meant as an insult. I'm trying to say that it's not a secure assumption, it's not something you can just expect people to accept.

...It's a universe where every myth has a basis in reality....

Nope.

Pretty much every myth lacking a White God-figure is out of luck. As is every myth without room for Outsiders. As is every myth where mortal magic as Harry does it is impossible.

That's a lot of myths that just aren't true in the DV.

Which might be the root of the disagreement. Are you pushing the idea that because it works in at least one mythology, it should work in this game's default setting?

Anyhoo, sorry if this is cutting a bit close to anyone's religious sensibilities. I'm trying to keep to game-world stuff, any real-world implications are accidental.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 25, 2012, 06:55:20 AM
My issue with this entire thing is actually pretty simple:

You're trying to prevent an action (casting a spell). 

Blocks exist specifically to prevent actions.

But you don't want to use a block.  THIS here is where the whole thing gets fishy for me. 

Attacks don't prevent actions, they damage your opponent in some way.  If you're trying to say that you're breaking down his connections to his magic, I'd buy it.  But you're not.  You're very clearly trying to do what chi-blockers do on the Avatar cartoons.  That comes off as a block (with a specific duration).  But you don't want to block.

Whenever I'm GMing and I have a player who wants to do something that there's a rule for, or pretty much a rule for, but wants to do it using different rules, I assume they're either trying to pull something over on me (like bypassing Toughness powers and the majority of the defensive capabilities of OW, in this case), or they just don't understand the rules.

I'm not sure which it is, so let me be clear.  IF YOU'RE TRYING TO PREVENT AN ACTION, USE A BLOCK.  Maybe a maneuver to place an aspect you can compel for effect.  But blocks were designed for this type of action.  It's how the system works.

I don't care what justification you're trying to use for mental stress, it's starting to seem like you really do know how powerful dealing mental stress is and want "the forums" to tell you it's okay and reasonable. 

I'll say it one last time.

USE A BLOCK.

I might be wrong, seemed to me like we moved past this already.  The issue now is whether a Spirit attack, directed via Fists, can deal mental stress.  I think it can, Taran provided a fairly decent narrative of how that could work.

Ok, take the pressure point thing out of it a second.  If I could use Spirit directed via a Fist roll rather than Discipline, I don't see why I couldn't have that Spirit attack be with the more...spiritual part of that element, inflicting mental stress and dealing consequences like Loss of Confidence, or Crippled Magic via bursts of fear, or despair or whatever.

Add the martial arts and pressure points back in, the pressure points are simply the places the practitioner as been taught to place these attacks, the martial arts is how the practitioner was taught to deliver such attacks.  Still the same generalized thing, now taking on the flavor that was desired.

Is that workable, or does it still need more refinement, or complete reconstruction/rejection and why?
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 25, 2012, 10:59:09 AM
With a touch the energy pulses out from my palm into my opponent.  Like a small detonation weakening a mountainside, the flow of the wizards energy is stymmied.  The wizard, reaching down for his power realizes, with fear, that his reserves have been ever so slightly depleted.  The constant torrent of energy that makes him a powerful force of nature has been reduced to a steady flow.
Fear creeps in knowing that another hit could bring his reserves to a trickle.  There is hesitation and doubt as he realizes that his connection to his power could be disconnected permanently - that the very thing that makes him extraordinary is slowly being locked away.
Allow me to provide you the following hypothetical narrative:
Your spell is entirely, fully, ideally effective.  It completely severs the target practitioner's access to their magic.  But they realize what's going on.  They see your workings, and understand them, and so are not struck with doubt and fear.  They know their magic will return, and how to make this come about.
In the meantime, how is your successful spell represented in this practitioner who is not fazed by the changes?

The issue now is whether a Spirit attack, directed via Fists, can deal mental stress.  I think it can, Taran provided a fairly decent narrative of how that could work.
As much as I believe that a spell delivered via fists is capable of delivering mental stress, I do not believe THIS spell is.

Is that workable, or does it still need more refinement, or complete reconstruction/rejection and why?
If you want mental stress, reflavour the spell.
If you want the flavour of the spell, use something other than mental stress.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 25, 2012, 12:39:34 PM
Meh, there is one issue with using a block. A non-thaumaturgy block has a maximum duration of a scene (and usually lasts quite a bit shorter). If you want a longer lasting effect and you don't have thaumaturgy, then the only solution is consequences. Of course as Tedronai has pointed out, that's a poor solution too.

Thinking about it this way, I think there just isn't any good option that can reliably do what you want within RAW. A consequence is the only long term solution, and it's not something you can guarantee. The block is something you can guarantee, but it doesn't have any duration.

Maybe the best solution would be evothaum. A thaumaturgy block can last like you want.

This.

Anyways, I'm happy to move on.

Allow me to provide you the following hypothetical narrative:
Your spell is entirely, fully, ideally effective.  It completely severs the target practitioner's access to their magic.  But they realize what's going on.  They see your workings, and understand them, and so are not struck with doubt and fear.  They know their magic will return, and how to make this come about.
In the meantime, how is your successful spell represented in this practitioner who is not fazed by the changes?

Meh.  By that argument mental stress never does what it's supposed to accomplish.

Also, completely severing one from their magic would be represented by a take out and, an extreme consequence.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 25, 2012, 01:44:34 PM
Meh.  By that argument mental stress never does what it's supposed to accomplish.
No, most mental magic works quite directly to achieve its desired goals.
The mundane methods of achieving mental stress, on the other hand, typically work on an entirely different time-scale to account for the fragile justifications that you're trying to achieve in a single spell.

Also, completely severing one from their magic would be represented by a take out and, an extreme consequence.
Completely severing someone from their magic COULD be represented as part of a take-out result.  Or they could keep on fighting in that conflict utilizing other means at their disposal.  Being cut off from their magic would not in itself necessitate them being taken out.  Nor would it necessarily require an Extreme Consequence.  The severity of a Consequence is primarily a question of how long the problem is intended to last, not a matter directly of the severity of the problem.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: UmbraLux on November 25, 2012, 02:24:40 PM
The mental stress with chi thing only makes sense if you buy into a particular belief. So having it work tells people that that belief is more valid than any other (in-game), on account of being true (in-game).
This is observably false in the Dresdenverse.

Quote
Pretty much every myth lacking a White God-figure is out of luck. As is every myth without room for Outsiders. As is every myth where mortal magic as Harry does it is impossible.
False again.  Start with the two you mention - the "White God" and "Outsiders" aren't from the same set of sources.  I don't believe either includes the other.  This is common in Butcher's writing.  He draws inspiration from many different cultural sources, adds his own spin, and combines them.  How else would you get fomor, fae, pagan gods, valkyrie, angels, ghosts, were-creatures, various vampires, and magic of several traditions? 

Completely severing someone from their magic COULD be represented as part of a take-out result.  Or they could keep on fighting in that conflict utilizing other means at their disposal.  Being cut off from their magic would not in itself necessitate them being taken out.  Nor would it necessarily require an Extreme Consequence.  The severity of a Consequence is primarily a question of how long the problem is intended to last, not a matter directly of the severity of the problem.
Taran has a point - whether or not they could continue w/o magic, imposing a lack of magic should require a take out.  Even with a take out, loss of magic may not be an acceptable outcome.  See "Dictating Outcomes" on YS203. 
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 25, 2012, 02:44:46 PM
Maybe let's get away from blocks and attacks. There is a great method to impose a reality on things in this game: fate points.

So I could see a chi blocker make a fists maneuver on a wizard, tag the resulting aspect to justify him blocking the wizards magic, and then paying a fate point to compel the wizards high concept, so he won't be able to use his magic for the scene. I think this is a big enough issue, to have the chi blocker pay a fate point for.

Now the wizard can either accept the compel, or he can buy it off per the standard rules.

You could either justify this method by pointing to the characters high concept, or you can give the chi blocker a stunt that let's him do this. Maybe even give a bonus on placing the maneuver.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 25, 2012, 02:58:14 PM
imposing a lack of magic should require a take out.  Even with a take out, loss of magic may not be an acceptable outcome.  See "Dictating Outcomes" on YS203.

I agree, but I don't see how this contradicts what I was saying.
Yes, mandating a loss of magic should require a taken-out result, and even then, the loss of magic may or may not be an acceptable outcome from any given take-out result.  Mandating a broken limb (or pierced lung, or mild concussion...) also requires a take-out result.  Or it could be taken voluntarily in the form of a Consequence.
My point had more to do with the fact that, if the stated ideal end result of your attack (sever the target's access to their magic) does not itself justify mental stress then your attack should not inflict mental stress.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 25, 2012, 04:20:30 PM
I think we're getting distracted in the argument fellas. The whole point of this forum (or I guess this thread in particular) is to help the OP to figure out how to do what he (or she) wants to do. What he wants to do is use pressure points (narrative) to hinder spellcasting both using an action in conflict, in a way that can be long lasting.

We have already determined that a block doesn't give the duration required, and that normal stress/consequences are poor at best. What should the OP do?

You know, straight thaumaturgy does allow for assigning specific consequences.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 25, 2012, 05:57:38 PM
Some people call the DV a kitchen sink series because there are so many things from so many different sources.  In the DV, magic works because the caster believes it works.

If the caster thinks he's channeling Chi, then that's how it works with him.  If he thinks he's channeling the force, then that's how it works for him.

That said, the more versatile casters seem to buy into the White Council's "this is how magic works" style, but even someone trained in Western style magic can still find himself consulting with a Loa to discover what the message from Heaven really said then latter party with Fairies (which aren't part of the White God's world view) and meet Old Time Gods.

Richard
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Thrakkesh on November 25, 2012, 07:04:41 PM
One particularly dirty house-rule that could be applied is sort of turning it into a magical/spiritual 'grapple' for all intents and purposes using a different stat line.  I'm going to throw down my own 2 cents though and say long term (anything longer than a scene) is no.  That's not only a powerful enough effect that you'd get way too noticed. (Think of a Warden with that ability--or a Fae, or pretty much anything that has to shut down Wizards), but it's so powerful it sort of creeps into upsetting balance of power.  Not sure I like that much. Generally speaking the only thing that seems to get between a Wizard and his power is himself, and I'd be wary of changing that. Aspect tagging would work, I guess--but talk about a nasty aspect.  I'd at least require a lot of shifts to make that last (Enough shifts to safely cancel out all spellcasting attempts + duration + overcoming his resistance to the effect in the first place). *Maybe* a Thamaturgy style ability. Narratively you could see it as an elaborate ritual (presumeably he'd be unconscious at the time, which would put a fun time constraint on it).  Quick and dirty evocation though would be just no. That's the downside of using Evo anyway.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 25, 2012, 07:23:03 PM
I have to agree with Haru that a maneuver is the best method for cutting off a wizards magic, assuming you want to last one scene.  It doesn't even have to completely prevent the wizard from casting;  it could force them to use less powerful spells to represent that their magic is weakened.  It gives lots of options that make the flavour of "chi blocking"(or whatever fluff you prefer) better.  I like the maneuver as well, because the wizard could try using an action to remove the maneuver. Discipline to "centre himself"  or whatever fits the bill.

As far as mental damage goes, I just want to point out the excerpt on extreme consequences. 
Please Note that I'm no longer arguring for a mental attack(in this post, at least).  More that I'm pointing out that there could be an attack that targets a wizards magic and forces a take out AND an extreme consequence that could result in a character changing their High Concept:

YS. Pg 205
"Your high concept cannot be changed as a
result of an extreme consequence, unless the
attack in question is deliberately targeting
that aspect. In other words, you can’t change
Wizard of the White Council unless the
attack is specifically trying to permanently strip
you of magical ability.

So if you were to allow an attack that targeted magic which, personally, I don't see as anything But mental, you could permanently or semi-permanently destroy a wizards ability to cast.

You'll also note that it says, "deliberately targeting that aspect".  Which goes back to my previous point where I suggested using an assessment to discover that aspect and needing to tag it in order for such an attack to be useful.  Also, that because a failure to discover that aspect (either because of a failed assessment or because the aspect doesn't exist in the first place), the attacker would be unable to cast that spell.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 25, 2012, 07:47:16 PM
Allow me to provide you the following hypothetical narrative:
Your spell is entirely, fully, ideally effective.  It completely severs the target practitioner's access to their magic.  But they realize what's going on.  They see your workings, and understand them, and so are not struck with doubt and fear.  They know their magic will return, and how to make this come about.
In the meantime, how is your successful spell represented in this practitioner who is not fazed by the changes?

Let me take what you've said and re-frame it:

Your whit court Incite Lust power is entirely, fully, ideally effective.  But the Target practitioner realizes what's going on.  They see your workings, and understand them, and so are not struck with lust and desire.  They know the emotion will pass, and how to make this come about.
In the meantime, how is your successful power represented in this practitioner who is not fazed by the changes?

My point being, you've described an attack and the person should take consequences based on that attack.  If they only take stress and no consequences, the attack is still successful.  Some people have suggested the Jade Court be magic eating vamps.  How would you make their incite work.  It seems to me the easiest thing would be for them to do mental attacks that have long term consequences based on "losing magic" as they eat your source of power.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 25, 2012, 08:20:15 PM
If you want a longer lasting effect and you don't have thaumaturgy, then the only solution is consequences. Of course as Tedronai has pointed out, that's a poor solution too.

Why is this a poor solution.  Let's look at incite emotion:


YS P.173
If you can touch someone, you
can make him feel something. You’re able
to do maneuvers at +2 to your roll
(using
Intimidation for anger or fear and Deceit for
every other emotion) that force an emotion
on a target (as a temporary aspect), so long
as you’re in the same zone as he is and you
can physically touch him. The victim defends
with his Discipline. You may be able to
prevent the victim from taking other actions
as well if you do this as a block
(page 210)
instead of as a maneuver.

Emphasis mine.  So this is exactly what people are suggesting the OP do.  Use maneuvers or blocks

YS p.173
Lasting Emotion [–1]. If you increase the
refresh cost of this ability by 1, you gain the
ability to do Emotion-Touch as a mental attack
instead of a mere maneuver or block. If such
an attack hits, you gain a +2 stress bonus on a
successful hit (as though it were Weapon:2),
increasing the chances of inflicting a mental
consequence (and thus, a more lasting
emotional state).
The victim defends with his
Discipline.

But wait!  If the victim chooses the consequence, how does lasting emotion even work??  It works because the attack dictates the type of consequence.  It dictates how the narrative should be carried out, if not the exact consequence.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 25, 2012, 09:08:23 PM
Indeed, consequences are defined by the attack, however they can also be defined by how one avoids the attack. Using the above example, what if I avoid your lust vamp's attack by thinking about grandma and now I'm "awkwardly disposed to grandma".

As well consequences aren't always defined as physical or mental. Perhaps I have "bitten the tip of my tongue off" as a distraction.

Both of those are consequences that are defined by the attack, but are still not the intent of the vamp.

edit: Something else to consider as well. A consequence can be of the same nature, and still be antithetical to your intent. Consider the above example with two males. There is potential for the target to be "angrily homophobic".
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 25, 2012, 09:17:48 PM
Your whit court Incite Lust power is entirely, fully, ideally effective.  But the Target practitioner realizes what's going on.  They see your workings, and understand them, and so are not struck with lust and desire.  They know the emotion will pass, and how to make this come about.
In the meantime, how is your successful power represented in this practitioner who is not fazed by the changes?
The emotion that will pass is lust and/or desire.  For it to pass it must first be present.  Thus it must now be present and this is represented by mental stress and consequences.


My point being, you've described an attack and the person should take consequences based on that attack.  If they only take stress and no consequences, the attack is still successful.
To get back into the physical comparisons, and narrative descriptions of success/failure, I most assuredly disagree.  If the target takes only stress, the attack most likely failed (though in a way that carried a nebulous cost to the target).  The RPG almost certainly did not strike it's target, nor catch them in its blast, nor riddle them with shrapnel.  The 18-wheeler almost certainly failed to so much as clip their trailing ankle as they removed themselves from its path.  The spray of gunfire almost certainly failed to find aerate their soon-to-be-corpse.  And if any of that did happen, it did so in such a way as to have no appreciable effect.  Thus, narratively, the attack most likely failed.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 25, 2012, 09:22:08 PM
Indeed, consequences are defined by the attack, however they can also be defined by how one avoids the attack. Using the above example, what if I avoid your lust vamp's attack by thinking about grandma and now I'm "awkwardly disposed to grandma".

Then really every attack is useless. I use fire, the creatures catch.  He bumps his head trying to get out of the way, "mild consequence" and since the fire didn't cause the consequence, he heals it up as a suplemental action.

It seems a bit cheap to me.  It also makes WC vamps a bit silly and useless.  THey're trying to inspire an emotion with mental attacks so that they can feed but the players are taking physical consequences "I ram my head into the wall so I don't think about sex".  It just doesn't fly with me.

The emotion that will pass is lust and/or desire.  For it to pass it must first be present.  Thus it must now be present and this is represented by mental stress and consequences.

To get back into the physical comparisons, and narrative descriptions of success/failure, I most assuredly disagree.  If the target takes only stress, the attack most likely failed (though in a way that carried a nebulous cost to the target). 

O.k, I see your point there.  In other words, using an attack that takes up a wizards resources, (stress boxes), isn't really doing much narratively since stress boxes reflect a failed attack.  I see this.  Although, stress boxes also represent the person becoming more fatigued to the point where they can't dodge anymore (use up their stress boxes and take a consequence).  So I can also see where a wizard is becoming more fatigued trying to fend off attacks.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 25, 2012, 10:04:15 PM
Then really every attack is useless. I use fire, the creatures catch.  He bumps his head trying to get out of the way, "mild consequence" and since the fire didn't cause the consequence, he heals it up as a suplemental action.

It seems a bit cheap to me.  It also makes WC vamps a bit silly and useless.  THey're trying to inspire an emotion with mental attacks so that they can feed but the players are taking physical consequences "I ram my head into the wall so I don't think about sex".  It just doesn't fly with me.
Well, the consequences also have to pass a 'reasonableness test' from the table, so if you're playing with a like-minded group, those consequences won't 'fly' in your game.  If the table agrees, though, RAW backs them up.

O.k, I see your point there.  In other words, using an attack that takes up a wizards resources, (stress boxes), isn't really doing much narratively since stress boxes reflect a failed attack.  I see this.  Although, stress boxes also represent the person becoming more fatigued to the point where they can't dodge anymore (use up their stress boxes and take a consequence).  So I can also see where a wizard is becoming more fatigued trying to fend off attacks.
Yes, but 'tired wizard' isn't the goal of your attack.  It's just a convenient byproduct of almost-success that makes future success more likely.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 26, 2012, 01:22:40 AM
Yes, but 'tired wizard' isn't the goal of your attack.  It's just a convenient byproduct of almost-success that makes future success more likely.
yes, that's what I was saying.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 26, 2012, 06:22:59 AM
This is observably false in the Dresdenverse.

...

False again.  Start with the two you mention - the "White God" and "Outsiders" aren't from the same set of sources.  I don't believe either includes the other.  This is common in Butcher's writing.  He draws inspiration from many different cultural sources, adds his own spin, and combines them.  How else would you get fomor, fae, pagan gods, valkyrie, angels, ghosts, were-creatures, various vampires, and magic of several traditions?

I don't think you're disagreeing with what I was trying to say.

Which is, many (maybe most) systems of mythology just aren't true in the Dresdenverse. Parts of them have been taken and integrated into the setting, but if you try to include their grander elements they end up contradicting established reality.

For example, there are plenty of people who believe that all magic must be either divine or satanic in origin. That mythology almost certainly isn't true in the DV.

And if it turns out that it is in a big plot twist, then the various other mythologies which include other magics are now untrue.

Lots of myths just aren't compatible, period.

Maybe let's get away from blocks and attacks. There is a great method to impose a reality on things in this game: fate points.

So I could see a chi blocker make a fists maneuver on a wizard, tag the resulting aspect to justify him blocking the wizards magic, and then paying a fate point to compel the wizards high concept, so he won't be able to use his magic for the scene. I think this is a big enough issue, to have the chi blocker pay a fate point for.

Now the wizard can either accept the compel, or he can buy it off per the standard rules.

You could either justify this method by pointing to the characters high concept, or you can give the chi blocker a stunt that let's him do this. Maybe even give a bonus on placing the maneuver.

I think that's too much power for a maneuver. Against a dedicated wizard, it's basically an instant fight-ender. A save-or-lose, in D&D terms.

Maybe make it require a stunt, and a big margin of success. Landing a maneuver by a margin of 4 or so might earn you an effect that huge.

Then really every attack is useless. I use fire, the creatures catch.  He bumps his head trying to get out of the way, "mild consequence" and since the fire didn't cause the consequence, he heals it up as a suplemental action.

It seems a bit cheap to me.  It also makes WC vamps a bit silly and useless.  THey're trying to inspire an emotion with mental attacks so that they can feed but the players are taking physical consequences "I ram my head into the wall so I don't think about sex".  It just doesn't fly with me.

Pretty sure that consequences still have to match stress types.

The Catch thing is a genuine issue, though it's easy enough to slap down in actual play. Limitation fixes it, incidentally.

Anyway, if you want to impose narrative authority on somebody else with an attack, you better take them out. If that's unsatisfying, well, there's maneuvers.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 26, 2012, 07:41:31 AM
I think that's too much power for a maneuver. Against a dedicated wizard, it's basically an instant fight-ender. A save-or-lose, in D&D terms.

Maybe make it require a stunt, and a big margin of success. Landing a maneuver by a margin of 4 or so might earn you an effect that huge.
I think my suggestion already lies within the realm of possibilities. Keep in mind, I did not say, that the maneuver itself shuts the wizard down, it just give the justification to spend a fate point to do so. If the chi-blocker is an NPC, that means the wizard will accumulate quite some fate points in the course of the campaign, when he is fighting him, and will eventually be able to defeat him. If he is a PC, and he uses it all the time, he will be pretty much starved on fate points. Either way, I think it works out. Especially, since you can buy out of the compel by spending fate points yourself.
Also keep in mind, that the wizard would still be able to use his enchanted items, and since a wizard is all about being prepared, that should be something for every wizard to consider.

If just the maneuver could shut him down, yes that would be drastically overpowered. I could even compel the wizard to not use his powers without the maneuver, if I had another justification.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 26, 2012, 12:49:15 PM
I think my suggestion already lies within the realm of possibilities. Keep in mind, I did not say, that the maneuver itself shuts the wizard down, it just give the justification to spend a fate point to do so. If the chi-blocker is an NPC, that means the wizard will accumulate quite some fate points in the course of the campaign, when he is fighting him, and will eventually be able to defeat him. If he is a PC, and he uses it all the time, he will be pretty much starved on fate points. Either way, I think it works out. Especially, since you can buy out of the compel by spending fate points yourself.
Also keep in mind, that the wizard would still be able to use his enchanted items, and since a wizard is all about being prepared, that should be something for every wizard to consider.

If just the maneuver could shut him down, yes that would be drastically overpowered. I could even compel the wizard to not use his powers without the maneuver, if I had another justification.

As I pointed out earlier, the compel doesn't have to be a total block of magic, it could be a limitation on power.  It could also be negotiated that the wizard is limited while such an aspect exists, so if the wizard, or one of his allies has a justifiable means to reverse the maneuver, then the wizard would be free to cast again.   It certainly isn't save or die.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Thrakkesh on November 26, 2012, 05:13:54 PM
As I pointed out earlier, the compel doesn't have to be a total block of magic, it could be a limitation on power.  It could also be negotiated that the wizard is limited while such an aspect exists, so if the wizard, or one of his allies has a justifiable means to reverse the maneuver, then the wizard would be free to cast again.   It certainly isn't save or die.

It may not be exactly 'save or die' but creating compels that specifically shut down that one thing you use Wizards for (who as a consequence don't have a lot of fate points to avoid compels to begin with) and causing stress on the same track they cast spells as a 'happy side effect' is pretty suspect.

Edited: Removed some other about its application earlier based on the conversation back on page 2.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 26, 2012, 05:24:24 PM
It may not be exactly 'save or die' but creating compels that specifically shut down that one thing you use Wizards for (who as a consequence don't have a lot of fate points to avoid compels to begin with) and causing stress on the same track they cast spells as a 'happy side effect' is pretty suspect. And you want to use your fist skill, from what I'm gathering? Presumeably so they have to use athletics to defend, which isn't going to be as tough as Disc (their stat for mental defenses). It's hard not to feel that's a bit overpowered.

What about "blinding" a wizard?  Now he can't target anyone with his spells.  I suppose he could still do full zone effects, but he might hit his allies.  There are lots of nasty compels that go along with blinding, such as dodging mediocre.  IMO, a blindness aspect is closer to a save or die than anything else I can think of...and I'm sure people can think of lots. Where's Belial666, I'm sure he could come up with half a dozen awful things to do to a wizard.

What about "stunned"?  Now you could compel that to say the wizard is unable to act at all.

I'm sure given all the people on this board, we can think of some really nasty maneuvers that could be compelled that are harsher than having the wizard cast at a lower power of having them spend a few rounds trying to remove an aspect.

Remember, compels are negotiated

EDIT
Sorry, Thrakkesh, I misread your post...I thought you were talking about maneuvers.

No, if I were to allow a Chi Blocking Channelling attack, I'd have the wizard save with ... probably discipline...

If it were a magical beast that channels via a different means, I'd allow them to use whatever skill it is they use to Control their magic.  So basically, the caster would, most likely, get to use their highest skill.

How I see it, the fists attack isn't doing the actual damage, it's the energy that the fist attack is channeling that is doing it - so that's the more important thing to save against.

But that's just how i'd do it.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 26, 2012, 06:02:42 PM
Ok, so Im the OP. I just caught up after not having internets for a while. Can someone please explain why my attack doesnt work as a mental attack again?
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 26, 2012, 06:21:51 PM
From how I understand it, it doesn't work narratively, and a wizards magic has nothing to do with their mental state, therefore cutting off their magic cannot cause mental damage (or is not, in itself, mental damage).

I disagree with this, of course, because I beleive that a persons magic is intrinsically connected to their sense of being.  In fact it makes up WHO they are (usually because being a wizard MUST be represented in their High Concept).  Therefore damaging their magic is also damaging their sense of being.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 26, 2012, 06:30:15 PM
I disagree with this, of course, because I beleive that a persons magic is intrinsically connected to their sense of being.  In fact it makes up WHO they are (usually because being a wizard MUST be represented in their High Concept).  Therefore damaging their magic is also damaging their sense of being.

Whereas I would say that damaging a wizard's access to their magic, if not promptly addressed, will cause 'damage' to their sense of being, but is not itself that damage.

For most people, having hands would be deeply ensconced in their sense of being, and removing or substantially damaging their hands will lead to traumatic changes to their sense of self, particularly should said damage be of a permanent nature.  And yet, outside of special circumstances (ex. torture), damaging a character's hands is not represented by mental stress and consequences.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 26, 2012, 06:45:00 PM
So, in reverse.  You cause doubt and fear in the wizard and due to this doubt and fear he can no longer cast his spells?

Kind of like how when Dresden burned his hands it caused so much mental distress/fear of fire that he had a hard time calling up his fire. Speaking of hands.

So not being able to cast spells is a by-product of mental damage vs mental damage being a by-product of not being able to cast spells.

Except that I don't see them as two separate entities.  They are the same thing.  Fear/doubt/anger/tiredness IS the magic.  Or, I guess what I'm trying to say is, magic is just another emotion or state of being. 

I'm seeing the root of the disagreement, I think.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 26, 2012, 08:18:03 PM
Yea thats what I am trying to get at myself. People have been saying that there is no way that this attack works because it affects the mental stress track which means that it has to change the way a person sees themselves. In that respect a magician cant practice magic because each time he casts a spell he is changing how he sees himself. Which I dont see as intrinsically true.

While I do understand the objections to that respect, I feel if that is what is being stated, then Wizards shouldnt take mental stress to cast magic.

Also, the way a wizard casts his spells is based off of his beliefs. Thus Harry, who is westernly trained, uses rods and spells. A eastern wizard may therefor use his magic in the way he believes.

Harry has many times said that Magic is the shaped thought. In that respect what a wizard believes is how his magic works. I see no reason that a wizard shouldnt be able to disrupt another wizards magic by injecting foreign magic into him. It would cause a disruption.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 26, 2012, 08:32:31 PM
You know, that's a good point.  Every time a wizard casts a spell, he gives himself mental stress.  If he casts enough spells, he forces mental consequences.  So after a big fight, he probably needs to go see a psychologist or something to start curing the damage on his psyche.

Now, you could re-phrase your narrative that your attack is super-charging their magic.  Over-loading it even.  So while casting is a controled use of power, slowly wearing down the wizard (assuming he controls the spell), your attack is shooting piles of energy into the target.  A successful defense means they deflect that energy and protect their psyche, but a successful attack means their psyche is exposed to too much energy.

So your attack isn't cutting off the energy, your attack is making it surge.  Maybe you can call it forced backlash or something.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 26, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
That was my basic idea the entire time. I dont know why it was getting so much crap as being unusable.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 26, 2012, 09:11:44 PM
You know, that's a good point.  Every time a wizard casts a spell, he gives himself mental stress.  If he casts enough spells, he forces mental consequences.  So after a big fight, he probably needs to go see a psychologist or something to start curing the damage on his psyche.
I don't know about that. I don't think that all mental consequences need attention from a counselor. A mental consequence--particularly a mild one--is more than likely just a bad mood or a headache from the strain or something that the wizard is going to get over in due time. Just like you wouldn't force someone to go see a doctor before you let them get rid of the Mild consequence of "Twisted Ankle."
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 26, 2012, 09:22:42 PM
I don't know about that. I don't think that all mental consequences need attention from a counselor. A mental consequence--particularly a mild one--is more than likely just a bad mood or a headache from the strain or something that the wizard is going to get over in due time. Just like you wouldn't force someone to go see a doctor before you let them get rid of the Mild consequence of "Twisted Ankle."

Right.  Mild consequences don't count.  But for anything more severe, you'd need to see someone. 
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 26, 2012, 09:38:47 PM
Regardless of that, Magic deals mental stress when the caster uses it. When my character pushes magic in to the other caster, that should be able to inflict mental stress, and make sense that I am doing it that way.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 26, 2012, 10:45:02 PM
About the maneuver idea: I'd let a BLINDED Aspect Compel prevent one attack or set one defence to Mediocre. Maybe more than one. But your proposal seems to be scene-long. That's just too much.

Unless the fight is a throwaway random encounter, I guess.

And there's pretty much no reason to spend FP when tags are available.

About inflicting mental stress: The issues are

1. It's overpowered
2. It doesn't actually do much to stop spellcasting
and
3. Its narrative appropriateness is questionable given the description provided.

Also there was some weird thing about a special kind of stress which can't take people out.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 26, 2012, 11:06:33 PM
About the maneuver idea: I'd let a BLINDED Aspect Compel prevent one attack or set one defence to Mediocre. Maybe more than one. But your proposal seems to be scene-long. That's just too much.
people out.

I never proposed scene long.  I proposed it work like a maneuver:  If you succeed by more than one shift, it's sticky, if not it last one exchange.

I would never do a scene long compel on a maneuver.  I'd do a compel for as long as the maneuver lasts, which could be the full scene if no-one takes efforts to remove it.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 26, 2012, 11:15:28 PM
About inflicting mental stress: The issues are
1. It's overpowered
2. It doesn't actually do much to stop spellcasting
and
3. Its narrative appropriateness is questionable given the description provided.
Also there was some weird thing about a special kind of stress which can't take people out.

Ok so 1. What makes it more overpowered than attacking physical stress track. If anything it balances out because they can defend with higher abilities as opposed to defending with ones that they might have as throw aways.

2. It does something. It may not stop them completely but it makes them reconsider doing bigger moves because they have less stress to spend on it.

3. Naratively it does make sense. I am flooding their system with magic which would affect them mentally as is shown by when they use magic it hits their mental stress track.

Also where is that last part. If you could find it for me that would be appreciated.

I honestly dont see why it is such a reach for this attack to attack mental stress. If the problem is that I am casting with fists, I had to take a -2 power to do that. I dont see this as being overpowered or out of the realms of posiblility.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 26, 2012, 11:39:22 PM
Ok so 1. What makes it more overpowered than attacking physical stress track. If anything it balances out because they can defend with higher abilities as opposed to defending with ones that they might have as throw aways.
Most characters just aren't set up for mental defense. So you're proposing being able to directly attack what's almost always going to be a weak spot with what's likely an apex skill for your own character.

Speaking as someone who has a player playing a character with Deceit at 5, and Incite Emotion (Potent Emotion) in one of his games, every monster out there is a lot less scary when their defense changes from 5 with a 6 box stress track and Armor:1 to rolling from 1 with a 2-box stress track. I have had legions of ghouls Despair'ed to death.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 27, 2012, 12:10:33 AM
@ mr. death.

1. most wizards don't have a toughness power
2. Their mental stress track is their best track and they likely have extra milds
3. They are defending with their apex skill: discipline.

So I don't see it as being Over Powered.  It is actually more advantageous to attack their physical track, I would think and force them to defend with endurance or athletics. 

It's true that the OP is is attacking with an apex skill.  If he was a wizard doing a mental evocation, it would also be using his apex skill, so it doesn't really make a difference that he's attacking with fists.

Once again, since he's suggesting it work on casters only, I might require that there be some kind of tag of the targets magic casting Aspect (usually the High Concept).  Or at least require an assessment to discover it.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 27, 2012, 12:23:05 AM
To be honest, I've only ever found mental attacks to be mildly overpowered. Most of the things that are supposed to be tough (like Sue) could probably invoke their high concept to be immune. That being said, things that are more self aware (like ghouls) do go down way easier that way. It is a bit overpowered Lavecki, take it from people who have tried it.

The main issue that I see with it though is simply the narrative weirdness of not hitting someone and still achieving your goal. One of the things that you have to understand in fate conflicts is that a successful attack may still completely miss. Stress is just energy expended avoiding an attack (or casting a spell, or whatever). If you haven't inflicted a consequence then you haven't even hit your target. Even if you do inflict a consequence, you still may not hit. I can flavor the consequence to be a result of escaping your attack. That's how we wind up with consequences like "sprained ankle" when you're shooting a gun at me.

So really, I just find it wonky that you could fail to connect with your target physically, but then still influence them in exactly the way you were trying to. Wonkyness happens when you mix physical and mental actions.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 27, 2012, 12:43:20 AM
Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up the fourth law yet. I mean wizards cast using their being as fuel, yes? Their emotions, thoughts, inclinations? Isn't altering that against the fourth law? Even moving away from the DV throughout the Asian mythos, chi attacks that alter in such a way are invariably considered wrong or evil.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 27, 2012, 01:16:33 AM
The main issue that I see with it though is simply the narrative weirdness of not hitting someone and still achieving your goal. One of the things that you have to understand in fate conflicts is that a successful attack may still completely miss. Stress is just energy expended avoiding an attack (or casting a spell, or whatever). If you haven't inflicted a consequence then you haven't even hit your target. Even if you do inflict a consequence, you still may not hit. I can flavor the consequence to be a result of escaping your attack. That's how we wind up with consequences like "sprained ankle" when you're shooting a gun at me.

Once again, I don't like this argument.  It makes WCV's useless.  The point of Lasting Emotion is to inflict consequences so that the Vamp can tag/compel victims in later scenes and feed.  I think it goes against RAI if you just say, "well, I can choose any consequence I want and therfore I'm going to choose something that screws over the baddie".  Also, the GM is making the choices for the NPC's.  IF the GM and the player have an agreement that this specific Rote is designed to attack a casters magic, then he'd be a bit of an ass to always make victims of an attack take consequences that are not in flavour of the attack.  I mean, what's the point of having 5 elements, when targets are just going to choose consequences like, sprained ankle, bashed head etc..that have nothing to do with the element in question?  IF I'm shooting someone with a "crushing despair" spirit attack, I'm expecting a consequence that will be in line with that narrative.  Otherwise it's just a crap-shoot and I might as well have Hit Points.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up the fourth law yet. I mean wizards cast using their being as fuel, yes? Their emotions, thoughts, inclinations? Isn't altering that against the fourth law? Even moving away from the DV throughout the Asian mythos, chi attacks that alter in such a way are invariably considered wrong or evil.

Actually someone mentionned it earlier, very briefly.  There's potential - especially in the case of a take-out and aspect change.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 27, 2012, 02:19:30 AM
Once again, I don't like this argument.  It makes WCV's useless.  The point of Lasting Emotion is to inflict consequences so that the Vamp can tag/compel victims in later scenes and feed.  I think it goes against RAI if you just say, "well, I can choose any consequence I want and therfore I'm going to choose something that screws over the baddie".  Also, the GM is making the choices for the NPC's.  IF the GM and the player have an agreement that this specific Rote is designed to attack a casters magic, then he'd be a bit of an ass to always make victims of an attack take consequences that are not in flavour of the attack.  I mean, what's the point of having 5 elements, when targets are just going to choose consequences like, sprained ankle, bashed head etc..that have nothing to do with the element in question?  IF I'm shooting someone with a "crushing despair" spirit attack, I'm expecting a consequence that will be in line with that narrative.  Otherwise it's just a crap-shoot and I might as well have Hit Points.

Whether a character suffers a Consequence is wholly in the hands of that character's player.  The nature of any Consequence suffered is primarily in the hands of the victim's player subject to the approval of the table as a whole.
This is a byproduct of one of the core features of DFrpg, that being the concept of narrative control.
If you don't like it, don't use it, but it is as it is.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 27, 2012, 02:35:16 AM
The nature of any Consequence suffered is primarily in the hands of the victim's player subject to the approval of the table as a whole.

This.

This is why sinkers argument that mental attack can be other than a mental attack wouldn't fly.  Maybe for one attack it might be justifiable.  More than that, though, most tables are going to call foul.

I like how consequences are done in Dfrpg and I like narrative control, but there is more than one person in the pilot seat.

There are powers in the book that are based on the fact that consequences will give the wielder of those powers a long-term advantage.  I don't think that a table would or should undermine that fact, otherwise those powers aren't worth the refresh spent on them.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 27, 2012, 03:03:56 AM
I never proposed scene long.  I proposed it work like a maneuver:  If you succeed by more than one shift, it's sticky, if not it last one exchange.

I would never do a scene long compel on a maneuver.  I'd do a compel for as long as the maneuver lasts, which could be the full scene if no-one takes efforts to remove it.

I see. I misunderstood. That could actually work.

Ok so 1. What makes it more overpowered than attacking physical stress track. If anything it balances out because they can defend with higher abilities as opposed to defending with ones that they might have as throw aways.

2. It does something. It may not stop them completely but it makes them reconsider doing bigger moves because they have less stress to spend on it.

3. Naratively it does make sense. I am flooding their system with magic which would affect them mentally as is shown by when they use magic it hits their mental stress track.

Also where is that last part. If you could find it for me that would be appreciated.

I honestly dont see why it is such a reach for this attack to attack mental stress. If the problem is that I am casting with fists, I had to take a -2 power to do that. I dont see this as being overpowered or out of the realms of posiblility.

1. You know the Power All Creatures Are Equal Before God? 3-4 Refresh, +1 FP/use? Mental stress does almost everything it does. Ignoring worn armour is good for a small stress boost, ignoring Toughness and Recovery and Immunity and physical enchanted armour makes a mockery of durable opponents. Hitting Discipline and Conviction instead of Athletics and Endurance is usually also a perk.

2. It does something, but not much. I can still cast normally after being hit with your anti-casting effect. Just not as many times.

3. It's debatable. That narration sounds okay to me, the old pressure point one doesn't.

4. Reply 20.

5. Basically, mental stress is much more powerful than physical stress. And Evocation already one-shots people all over the place. I'm speaking from experience when I say that against mental evocations every character is made of tissue paper. (Except for Crafters who bought mental defence items, and people using custom Powers.)

6. Did you pay 2 Refresh just to control spells with Fists? Sounds like a ripoff to me.

@ mr. death.

1. most wizards don't have a toughness power
2. Their mental stress track is their best track and they likely have extra milds
3. They are defending with their apex skill: discipline.

So I don't see it as being Over Powered.  It is actually more advantageous to attack their physical track, I would think and force them to defend with endurance or athletics. 

It's true that the OP is is attacking with an apex skill.  If he was a wizard doing a mental evocation, it would also be using his apex skill, so it doesn't really make a difference that he's attacking with fists.

Once again, since he's suggesting it work on casters only, I might require that there be some kind of tag of the targets magic casting Aspect (usually the High Concept).  Or at least require an assessment to discover it.

It's almost never a good idea to balance overpowered things with stuff like "only against spellcasters". This is a good example of why.

As you move upwards in the game's power scale, you'll see more and more characters rocking Toughness and spellcasting. Sometimes they'll be casters with Items Of Power or some other trick, like some of my current PCs. Sometimes they'll be physical monsters with spellcasting Powers, like elder Red Court vamps and skinwalkers. This suggestion dooms them all to one-hit-kills, and makes it so that spellcasting is seriously worth negative Refresh for many characters.

And anyway wizard fights are deadly enough as is.

To be honest, I've only ever found mental attacks to be mildly overpowered. Most of the things that are supposed to be tough (like Sue) could probably invoke their high concept to be immune. That being said, things that are more self aware (like ghouls) do go down way easier that way. It is a bit overpowered Lavecki, take it from people who have tried it.

The main issue that I see with it though is simply the narrative weirdness of not hitting someone and still achieving your goal. One of the things that you have to understand in fate conflicts is that a successful attack may still completely miss. Stress is just energy expended avoiding an attack (or casting a spell, or whatever). If you haven't inflicted a consequence then you haven't even hit your target. Even if you do inflict a consequence, you still may not hit. I can flavor the consequence to be a result of escaping your attack. That's how we wind up with consequences like "sprained ankle" when you're shooting a gun at me.

So really, I just find it wonky that you could fail to connect with your target physically, but then still influence them in exactly the way you were trying to. Wonkyness happens when you mix physical and mental actions.

Broken stuff like Invoking your High Concept to become immune to attack can keep other broken stuff in check, I guess.

Stress can be an actual hit, it just doesn't have to be.

I like how consequences are done in Dfrpg and I like narrative control, but there is more than one person in the pilot seat.

There are powers in the book that are based on the fact that consequences will give the wielder of those powers a long-term advantage.  I don't think that a table would or should undermine that fact, otherwise those powers aren't worth the refresh spent on them.

Which Powers are you talking about? I really can't think of any.

Anyway, taking someone out with Incite Emotion is easy because it's mental stress. So if you want a long term advantage, take them out and dictate whatever you like.

Oh, and with respect to your previous post...extra elements are pretty useless. Spirit does everything.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 27, 2012, 03:48:05 AM
Which Powers are you talking about? I really can't think of any.

Anyway, taking someone out with Incite Emotion is easy because it's mental stress. So if you want a long term advantage, take them out and dictate whatever you like.

Reply # 68 which is the description of lasting emotion.  Read it carefully.  It explicitely says why you do mental damage and what the the flavouring of the consequences are intended to do:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34836.msg1671966.html#msg1671966

So now that the WCV has inflicted a mild consequence of "turned on", the victim will be more likely to want to stay close to them.  The fact that they've inflicted a moderate of "Dying to have sex with them again"  can be compelled to have that victim come back a second time so the WCV can feed off the victim again and again.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 27, 2012, 03:53:04 AM
1. You know the Power All Creatures Are Equal Before God? 3-4 Refresh, +1 FP/use? Mental stress does almost everything it does. Ignoring worn armour is good for a small stress boost, ignoring Toughness and Recovery and Immunity and physical enchanted armour makes a mockery of durable opponents. Hitting Discipline and Conviction instead of Athletics and Endurance is usually also a perk.

2. It does something, but not much. I can still cast normally after being hit with your anti-casting effect. Just not as many times.

3. It's debatable. That narration sounds okay to me, the old pressure point one doesn't.

4. Reply 20.

5. Basically, mental stress is much more powerful than physical stress. And Evocation already one-shots people all over the place. I'm speaking from experience when I say that against mental evocations every character is made of tissue paper. (Except for Crafters who bought mental defence items, and people using custom Powers.)

6. Did you pay 2 Refresh just to control spells with Fists? Sounds like a ripoff to me.

1. Didn't you design a power that allowed for mental immunity? Why bother create this power if you didnt think anybody was going to use it. Also if I had a character who did Incite emotions, would you really be debating it as much?
2. Thats kind of the point.
3. Yea the old one was how it was originally thought of but as I thought of it more this is what I went with. Basically the attack is forcing them to take backlash.
6. The power let me do a couple things. Moved Discipline to Endurance, Conviction to Fists and something else that I cant remember right now.

Also as far as this attack goes, let me see if I can reword this attack so that everyone understands what I am trying to do.

I want to attack an opponent with my fists and imbue them with my magic, basically forcing them to take backlash. I feel now that this could be done to any person, regardless of if they were a caster or not.  Now, since it is a fist attack, it could be defended against by athletics and the like, but it is also a magic attack so it could be defended with dicipline and stuff like that as well. I dont feel that it should ignore any armor, because it is a fist attack. A fireball doesnt ignore armor, why should this attack. The thing is that I am targeting their mental stress. I dont think of it as a psychic attack and thus bypasses everything that they can defend with. Its end result simply would hit the mental stress track.

I see this argument coming up again.
The main issue that I see with it though is simply the narrative weirdness of not hitting someone and still achieving your goal. One of the things that you have to understand in fate conflicts is that a successful attack may still completely miss. Stress is just energy expended avoiding an attack (or casting a spell, or whatever). If you haven't inflicted a consequence then you haven't even hit your target. Even if you do inflict a consequence, you still may not hit. I can flavor the consequence to be a result of escaping your attack. That's how we wind up with consequences like "sprained ankle" when you're shooting a gun at me.

But it could still be argued that the attack (even if it doesnt connect) still scared them in such a way to inflict mental stress. I dont feel that it takes away from the game because if you have a good game group you are all under the impression of what each character is trying to acomplish and what will eventually happen when they take stress. I can argue that I take mental stress and my consequence is "sprained ankle" because I got scared and tripped. But that is still a taggable/ invokable aspect because it has weakened you in some way.

I thank everyone for their help.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 27, 2012, 04:00:36 AM
Sorry Levecki, but I just wanted to add some more  :P


@ Sanctaphrax:  RCV's addictive saliva does the same thing as WCV attack...have a read:

YS162

"Alternatively, you may make a Fists
attack
—setting aside any damage bonus you
might have—to inflict mental stress instead
of physical stress.


Any consequences resulting
from such an attack represent the more
lasting effects of the venom—if you score a
moderate consequence
or worse, or if you
take your target out, you’ve really gotten your
hooks into him (see below
).


Typically, however, this saliva is administered
out of combat—usually with an act of
intimacy (kissing) or unintentional ingestion
(spiking the punch). Roll Deceit with
a +2 bonus against the victim’s Discipline.
This is considered a “consequential contest”
(see page 193); if you win, you inflict a relevant
consequence (usually Addicted) on the
victim, severity determined by the contest.
Addicts are in pretty bad shape when
dealing with you—you don’t even need to
spend fate points to take advantage of this.
You get to tag (see page 106) their addiction
aspect every time you enter a new scene with
your new victim/pal, making it very easy to
gain—and keep—the upper hand."


You'll notice too that RCV uses FISTS to do MENTAL STRESS.  Sorry, now that I read this it sounds like I'm being an ass.  I'm actually just trying to point out the relevant parts. 
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 27, 2012, 07:39:01 AM
For the most part, I've said my piece, and don't particularly feel like repeating myself yet again, but I do have a comment or two remaining on recent arguments.

1. Didn't you design a power that allowed for mental immunity? Why bother create this power if you didnt think anybody was going to use it.
Custom powers are in the realm of houserules.  Typically, discussions such as these assume as little as possible where houserules are concerned.  If your game is making use of houserules that you feel might be relevant, making those houserules readily apparent in the thread is integral to receiving constructive feedback.

Also if I had a character who did Incite emotions, would you really be debating it as much?
Personally, I likely would not be debating the narrative description of your attack in that case unless you specified that the narrative description of your Incite power was different from the standard.  Somehow I suspect that it would be, and that, as a result, little here would change.

3. Yea the old one was how it was originally thought of but as I thought of it more this is what I went with. Basically the attack is forcing them to take backlash.
This is very much different from your original approach, and while I still have some reservations, it is a substantial improvement.

A fireball doesnt ignore armor, why should this attack. The thing is that I am targeting their mental stress. I dont think of it as a psychic attack and thus bypasses everything that they can defend with. Its end result simply would hit the mental stress track.
Even mundane attacks can sometimes ignore armour if the armour is not designed with that sort of attack in mind (a conventional kevlar vest will do little to stop a knife, for example).
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Thrakkesh on November 27, 2012, 07:52:53 AM
It's worth pointing out that the cost of that little power with addictive Saliva is a Hunger track..  Not an insubstantial cost for that little trick. You might get an extremely powerful ability, but you pay for it.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 27, 2012, 12:57:59 PM
It's worth pointing out that the cost of that little power with addictive Saliva is a Hunger track..  Not an insubstantial cost for that little trick. You might get an extremely powerful ability, but you pay for it.

In that one statement, you've made two mistakes:

1.  That addictive saliva and Incite emotion are NOT attached to a hunger track.  Neither of them have a pre-requiste for such a thing.  Each of these powers are a 1 refresh power.  So you aren't paying much.  In fact, channeling is probably a steeper price because it costs 2 refresh and you have to pay a mental stress every time you cast, not to mention what happens if you fail your control.  That's balanced by the fact that channelling is more versatile.

2.  You missed the point.

I was pointing out that there are powers designed to cause consequences to cause a specific effect in order to tag in later scenes.  That you can design a power with an intent to remove a wizards power, if that is the theme of the attack.  I could have a power that causes mental stress with an intent to cause consequences like, "faint power source" or "blocked chi" that a player or NPC can tag, in later scenes, to have the caster fail his spells.

Whether or not the fluff(cutting off magic) is acceptable to the table is beside the point.  The point is, creating consequences is a valid tactic and some powers are built on it.  It undermines the powers if players/GM's don't use consequences with the intended theme in mind.  Yes, you can choose your consequences, but the table needs to make sure people aren't being cheap.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 27, 2012, 05:51:52 PM
That addictive saliva and Incite emotion are NOT attached to a hunger track.  Neither of them have a pre-requiste for such a thing.  Each of these powers are a 1 refresh power.  So you aren't paying much.  In fact, channeling is probably a steeper price because it costs 2 refresh and you have to pay a mental stress every time you cast, not to mention what happens if you fail your control.  That's balanced by the fact that channelling is more versatile.

Yes Feeding Dependancy is a completly different power that attaches to any power you want.

Custom powers are in the realm of houserules.  Typically, discussions such as these assume as little as possible where houserules are concerned.  If your game is making use of houserules that you feel might be relevant, making those houserules readily apparent in the thread is integral to receiving constructive feedback.

The issue I am having is I dont feel I am getting constructive feedback. I feel that my rewording of how the power works was the best feedback I have gotten. Besides Taran it seems that most of the people here are simply refuting the posibility of this attack working. I am willing to rework it into a power such as with Addictive Saliva, but I dont feel that I should have to do that since I have already spent refresh on:

Channeling (-2)
Natural Channel (-2)
Martial Mojo (+1)

The last two are custom powers off the custom powers list. Martial mojo restricts magic to close range and Natural channel is the one I reffered to in my previous post.

If it makes more sense for people that I make up a custom power "forced backlash" and its a -1 power that attacks mental stress and makes invokable aspects based on detrementing the magical aptitude or whatever. It would end up being a reword of addictive saliva.
I dont feel I need to do that but if it is the only way that people here think that will work then I will.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 27, 2012, 06:18:35 PM
No seriously, why would it matter whether it's a permanent change or not? If you're altering someone's natural inclinations/mental state with mortal magic then you're breaking the fourth law. I mean I guess that maybe stress is skirting it, but the second that there's a consequence you have made changes. For that matter the intent is there in spades. You're trying to make those changes. I guess that there's some really great drama there if your character is trying to be a hero and then realizes that his methods have terrible consequences, but if you don't want to be skirting the laws then I would suggest against out and out breaking one over and over.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 27, 2012, 06:59:12 PM
Sorry. I was about to write something that was inherintly wrong. What I want to say now is that I have changed how the attack works. It should no longer prevent them from using magic, in the same way that you dont prevent yourself from using magic by taking backlash. What I am trying to do now is force magic into them. The consequence that they take should reflect that they have more magic, but they should be just as allowed to tag it as I am to invoke it that they have more power behind the attack.

I am not changing how they are anymore.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Thrakkesh on November 27, 2012, 07:44:34 PM
Eh, my bad, thought AS required feeding dependency and I didn't double check. Thanks for pointing that out.

Having chewed on it (and discussed it with my wife, since she's apparently less bothered by the whole concept) I suppose the problem that grabbed me wasn't that you wanted to cause mental stress in and of itself, but that it also coincided with removing a Wizard's magic, possibly long term, which is a pretty nasty breaker. Causing mental stress or backlash actually doesn't bother me much, so I'm more or less okay with that.   I mean, a Psychic attack on a Wizard pretty much does that already. I'm not exactly terribly opposed to the idea, as long as it is A). Not all that simple to shut down everyone with any kind of magic and B). Not something that can easily (keyword here) just *ruin* magical being's entire week. You wanna shut a Wizard down with some kind of weird magical psychic attack? Be my guest. (Although it's 4th law breaking territory and magical attempts to do so are, as far as I'd be concerned, identical, since you are attempting to essentially block or cut off who they are).

Regarding Consequences though you should leave some wiggle room: It doesn't have to be 'Can't cast Magic' (and shouldn't be unless it's a taken out result at least), but 'Misfiring Magic' 'Disrupted' Or SOMETHING like that. I mean, assuming you use this on a PC, it's really cruel for a GM to basically turn a Wizard PC into a glorified Mortal for a long period.  If that was the goal I'd be firmly against allowing it as a GM, but you wanna have some kind of weird magicky attack that makes magic harder?  Okay, I guess. Just know that comes with baggage (being 4th-law territory and basically being a horrifying thought to Wizards anyway as a Magical talent folk, for example. Also, if it's evo based, there's ways to shut it down--which actually serves to balance it somewhat, I suspect).
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 27, 2012, 08:36:37 PM
@ Thrakkesh :The only time I suggested completely taking away a wizards magic(if it could be done) - which WOULD involve changing their High Concept would be in the event of a Take-Out.  The alternative is they could be dead.  So maybe alive with no magic might be better.

It leads to a couple scenario's.  If it's a PC, it would suck, but they could quest to get it back, or perhaps move their character in a new direction.  It would involve a pretty in-depth conversation with the GM.

If it was an NPC, they'd be out for revenge, and use everything at their disposal to do it, despite not having magic.  So it might lead to interesting encounters in the future.

@ Levecki:  You know what might be a neat description.   When calling up power, a mage channels all these emotions:  hate, rage, anger, saddness lonliness, fatigue  etc...

It would be neat to describe it as channeling it all, and instead of sending it out as kinetic energy, or a fireball, the character channels it straight into the target.

Suddenly, the target gets bombarded with all this raw emotion that they have to try to cope with.  So maybe they make their skill check and it just goes in through the "right and out the left " (as harry describes it), or maybe they see that emotion and say, "that guy is messed up, but I've seen worse"  represented by taking stress; or maybe they say, "holy crap!  I can't handle it!" and they take a hit to their psyche as they are bombarded with emotions they can't reconcile.

Here's the neat thing:  In the instance where you succeed on an attack, they get a glimps of who you are....the consequence they suffer could even have an aspect relating to your own character.  This might not mean anything - especially if you take them out...but it could come back to haunt you later.

Whether or not that is Lawbreaker territory is another discussion.  But, in essence, that's kind of how I see backlash anyways.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 27, 2012, 09:18:34 PM
I dont see backlash like that at all, though that is a cool idea. The way I see it is the way harry described it in Fool Moon.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Thrakkesh on November 27, 2012, 10:10:21 PM
@ Thrakkesh :The only time I suggested completely taking away a wizards magic(if it could be done) - which WOULD involve changing their High Concept would be in the event of a Take-Out.  The alternative is they could be dead.  So maybe alive with no magic might be better.


Whether or not that is Lawbreaker territory is another discussion.  But, in essence, that's kind of how I see backlash anyways.

So, obviously your group opinion may vary on that, but if you decide to do that, even as a taken out result, you have just done something with signficant impact with the Dresden verse.  Remember Harry's reaction to Michael's 'solution?' And he's relatively young in the Wizarding world.  For some Wizard's you are talking about a fate worse than death here.  Even if it could be say, undone, you've shaken a pretty big foundation of DV.  That's not a bad thing--plots could revolve around other parties in the Supernatural world finding various uses for something like that (or wanting to shut it down entirely), you're not talking a tiny little thing here. 

I will have to disagree with you again one tenant though: Unless circumstances are pretty techincal--it's a law break.  Very likely in terms of game mechanics, but 100% almost CERTAINLY in the eyes of the Council (they just might not prosecute if he was a particularly bad guy).  Magic comes from the core of a Wizard's very being and what you're talking about is essentially cutting off access to that part of them.  It is in some ways the same as crippling or blinding a person.  Furthermore, for a Wizard you may have very well have signed their death sentence. Everyone who has a grudge against the Wizard has now declared open season.  Every single Supernatural being on the planet now has access to a Wizard who is no threat, as a thrall, a source of power, food, or anything else.  It's an aggressive act. Even using it on a straight up villain would probably result in Wardens having some very tense conversations about how much longer they should a person run around doing that.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 27, 2012, 10:33:33 PM
Which is why I changed it. I feel this attack could work on any person. Its just forcing magic through them. Thats all the attack is made to do. Now at least
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Thrakkesh on November 27, 2012, 10:38:22 PM
That's fine--at that point it's not fundamentally very different from how Ebenezeer was shutting down other magic.  And I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just that to do it right it should be treated with the gravity it deserves.  I mean, hey, it's a game--a collaborative storytelling game at that. If you guys have fun with it, have fun with it.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 28, 2012, 12:08:52 AM
Whether or not that is Lawbreaker territory is another discussion.  But, in essence, that's kind of how I see backlash anyways.

Forcing your own turbulent emotions on another with the intent that the result is psychologically traumatic?  Would there really be a discussion to be had?  That would be blatantly Lawbreaking.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 28, 2012, 02:33:37 PM
I dont believe that it would be. There are only 3 laws that it could be considered breaking: 2, 3, and 4.

2: never transform another. This is reffering to the physical transformation of a persons body into something that it is not. This can cause damage to the mind which is why it is illegal. I am not doing this.

3: Never Invade the Thoughts of Another. This is talking about mind reading. Scanning a persons personal thoughts and using them to your own advantage. I am not doing this.

4: Never Enthral Another. This is talking about taking over the mind and dominating it. Making it bend to your will and taking comand. I am not doing this.

I would love to hear the argument against this though, because I could be wrong with my interpretation of these laws.

EDIT: Taking away a wizards magic could fall in that grey area. You technically arent changing their form but you are taking away something that was part of them. My remarks above were based off of the current power which doesnt take away wizards magic really.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 28, 2012, 04:30:30 PM
And all Molly did was to make a few people afraid.
You're inserting material of your choosing into the mind of another for your own purposes.  Moreover, you're doing it in a way that is intentionally traumatic.  You are purposefully harming the mind of another.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 28, 2012, 04:46:21 PM
And all Molly did was to make a few people afraid.

She took away choice, which is why it violated the fourth law. I am not taking away any choice.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 28, 2012, 04:56:00 PM
Huh.  I kind of see this as the equivalent of saying that because you burned someone's arm off with a fire evocation you broke the 2nd Law of Transforming people.

You're exposing them to something harsh and dangerous, with the end result of damaging them.

TBH though, I haven't dealt with Lawbreaking much in my games, so I'm not really a good person to advocate for having it one way or the other.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 28, 2012, 05:12:49 PM
She took away choice, which is why it violated the fourth law. I am not taking away any choice.

The only differences are that yours is less controlled, more short-lived, and more damaging.
The choices you take away aren't your goal, but violently inserting your own emotions into another WILL result in the same sort of removal of choice.

Another reason why it violated the Law?  Or rather, why the Law is there in the first place?  Minds are complicated.  So when you're messing around inside one, no matter how careful you are, no matter how pure your intentions (see Molly), you WILL end up doing some damage.  You're skipping that careful part.  You're definitely skipping that 'good intentions' part.  You're setting out to do damage.

Transforming another is a violation for the same reason.  The person that comes out is not the person that went in.  This is exactly what will result from forcefully inserting your emotions into the mind of another.  You will change who they are.  And likely not in a beneficial direction.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: sinker on November 28, 2012, 06:02:41 PM
Think about it this way. There is no "magic" in the DV, no "mana" or "power", there is only your being, your thoughts, your will.

Accepting that, what you are doing is forcibly inserting your thoughts/being into someone else with the intent of disrupting their thoughts/being. How would that not change their natural inclinations and thoughts?

Also you may want to reread the laws in Your Story. The fourth law is titled "Never enthrall another" which would imply direct or complete control, but when you read further it states that any attempt to change the natural inclinations or thoughts is bad.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 28, 2012, 06:11:44 PM
Then you cant do magic as an offensive thing. Whether it is physical or mental. If I do a magical attack, I am affecting my own mind, to the point that I can take consequences because of it. The attack does this exact thing to the reciever. I havent transformed them, I havent enthraled them, I have not invaded their thoughts. All I am doing is opening up their mind to the raw nature around it. Which causes mental stress.

Maybe this is a lawbreaker and I am just wrong. I feel that it could definitly be gray area and that wardens would be watching, but as far as my own interpretation at the moment, I havent been convinced that I am breaking a law.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: blackstaff67 on November 28, 2012, 06:27:04 PM
Then you cant do magic as an offensive thing. Whether it is physical or mental. If I do a magical attack, I am affecting my own mind, to the point that I can take consequences because of it. The attack does this exact thing to the reciever. I havent transformed them, I havent enthraled them, I have not invaded their thoughts. All I am doing is opening up their mind to the raw nature around it. Which causes mental stress.

Maybe this is a lawbreaker and I am just wrong. I feel that it could definitly be gray area and that wardens would be watching, but as far as my own interpretation at the moment, I havent been convinced that I am breaking a law.

First off, Wardens have been known to cut off heads when people venture into grey territory, just to be safe.  Ask Donald Morgan.
Second, if you're "opening up their mind" against their will, then you ARE invading their minds which is a no-no.  If you think about it, if you can do it and not get vorpal'd by the Wardens as a 4th Law violaotion, then ANYONE (any practitioner, that is) can do it willy-nilly.  For all intents and purposes, I'm interpreting what you're doing as the equivalent (not the same, but close) of forcing the Sight on an unwilling subject...and we all know what the Sight can do to a soul. 

I'm terribly sorry, but there's a legitimate reason that the Wardens use Circles and the like to take down rogue wizards and not mind magic such as what you're describing.   Pretty powerful juju you're messing with with MUCH more potential to destroy a human's mind.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 28, 2012, 06:30:48 PM
All I am doing is opening up their mind to the raw nature around it. Which causes mental stress.
If their mind was closed and now it is open, it is a transformation in my book.

You are clinging to technicalities. Which is fine, if your table is up for it, but in my book, your kind of attack is definitely a lawbreaker. Remember, if a wizard holds someone with magic and then kills him with a knife, that is still considered lawbreaking, because magic was involved in the killing, even if it "only" was a passive part of the kill. It's the same with your attack. You might not shove the emotions into the others mind, but you create the circumstance that allows for it. Even more directly than my kill example above, I might add, because you could tie them down or have someone else hold them. Your attack ONLY works with magic.

And the laws do not include yourself. You can transform yourself all you want. And invading your own thoughts is kind of like breaking into your own home.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 28, 2012, 06:36:06 PM
I dont know anymore. I dont really care enough anymore either. Im probably wrong on all acounts. Thats fine. Thanks for helping me. Im done
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 28, 2012, 06:40:16 PM
question(s):

If you torture someone in front of someone else, the person watching might get traumatized by it.

If I use magic to show someone an image of someone else getting tortured and they get traumatized by it, is it a Lawbreaker?

If I show it to them in their mind's eye, is it a lawbreaker?
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 28, 2012, 07:02:00 PM
Think about it this way. There is no "magic" in the DV, no "mana" or "power", there is only your being, your thoughts, your will.

Accepting that, what you are doing is forcibly inserting your thoughts/being into someone else with the intent of disrupting their thoughts/being. How would that not change their natural inclinations and thoughts?

On another note, I thought it was established in this thread that affecting a person's magic cannot affect their mental state.  That they were two seperate entities.

Whereas I would say that damaging a wizard's access to their magic, if not promptly addressed, will cause 'damage' to their sense of being, but is not itself that damage.

So forcing backlash on a mage is just forcing them to control another spell.  If they fail, they take a mental hit.  That mental hit is just a result of the wizards inability to control that energy.  The attack, itself, has little to do with their sense of being.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 28, 2012, 07:28:10 PM
If I show it to them in their mind's eye, is it a lawbreaker?
Yes, no questions asked. Even if he gets (and succeds in) a defense roll, this is a lawbreaker.

Quote
If I use magic to show someone an image of someone else getting tortured and they get traumatized by it, is it a Lawbreaker?
This one is sketchier, but I would judge yes here, too. Think about it: you are using your magic to create an image that is horrifying enough for someone else to get traumatized by. Why would that leave you untouched? You either have an issue or will have an issue as a result.
Magic works through what you believe, so in this instance, you believe it is ok to project such a horrifying image onto another human being. Or that such a horrifying image is ok in the first place.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 28, 2012, 07:34:14 PM
I actually agree with Haru on this one. Those seem like blatant mind altering things through the use of magic.

That being said what I am doing is not that. I am basically giving them X shifts to control. If they dont control X shifts when they roll and get Y, they take X-Y shifts of backlash. Which they are used to getting anyway because it happens Everytime they cast as spell
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 28, 2012, 08:12:42 PM
That being said what I am doing is not that. I am basically giving them X shifts to control. If they dont control X shifts when they roll and get Y, they take X-Y shifts of backlash. Which they are used to getting anyway because it happens Everytime they cast as spell
Sorry I'm confused.

Are you modelling it as a normal attack?  A power 5 spell would be a weapon 5 attack defended against 'X" skill and extra shifts would go to damage? Or would their defense also act as their control for a power 5 spell?

So, for the latter, assuming you roll an 8 control/target roll for a power 5 spell. If the target rolls 5 or higher they'd take no damage despite getting hit?

If they rolled under a 5, they'd take damage equal to 5 minus their roll?

The other way of doing it is have the difference between your attack and their defense be the amount of shifts they need to control.  This would effectively be a weapon 0 attack.  The problem with that is the power of the spell would be irrelevant -  there'd be no difference between a power 1 or a power 5 spell.  I guess you could say that the power of the spell is the Maximum amount of damage inflicted...

It certainly goes away from the standard evocation attack...
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 28, 2012, 08:35:54 PM
true. I may have confused myself. Let me retry that. Or maybe that is how I am modeling this.

I am wondering if this could be a mixture. however that would end up being really complicated so nevermind.

I guess I would say that it would depend on what you defended with. If, to use your example, I call up 5 shifts and do an 8 to targeting and they defend with discipline to control the magic they are getting then they would only need to get a 5. But if they defended with athletics to try and avoid the hit alltogether, then they would need an 8. The same would be true if I called up 5 shifts but rolled a 3. maybe not because that is not how magic works. I dont know. trying to figure this out. Suggestions?
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 28, 2012, 08:38:15 PM
You can't really force someone to take backlash. There's always the option of letting it go as Fallout.

What you're describing really isn't part of any of the attack/defense rules in the game, and appears to jump through too many hoops for my tastes.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 28, 2012, 08:53:40 PM
I'm sorry, but the whole thing reeks to me of trying to get the quickest and easiest way to shut down a wizard without having any of the costs.

Mr. Death said it quite good, those things are not really how things work. They might, if you want to put it in as a houserule, but I find it rather strange, at the least.

One thing I might want to add: You are mixing conflicts, and that in itself is going to be all kinds of confusing.
You might consider making the attack a justification to begin a mental conflict, which will happen in its entirety during one exchange of the physical conflict. This would, again, only justify a maneuver + tag for effect. You would basically battle the wizard over the control of his magic, but he could, in return, attack you. This I would see as much less harming and much more balanced.

What is wrong with the numerous other options presented? A block? A maneuver? A block/maneuver incite emotion like ability. Spending a fate point to compel the wizards high concept? Those are all things that are already established in the rules, and they work pretty good. Not trying to be snarky, I just didn't get why you don't like them.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 28, 2012, 09:10:37 PM
I do like them. I am asking how to do this attack. Which I dont see as broken. I was trying to get my point across as to why it delivered mental stress so I described it as a sort of forced backlash. Obviously you cant force them to take thier own backlash but if there is excess magic inside thier body that is what that is. Also the other ideas are much quicker, much easier ways of shutting down wizards.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 28, 2012, 09:29:03 PM
I do like them. I am asking how to do this attack. Which I dont see as broken. I was trying to get my point across as to why it delivered mental stress so I described it as a sort of forced backlash. Obviously you cant force them to take thier own backlash but if there is excess magic inside thier body that is what that is. Also the other ideas are much quicker, much easier ways of shutting down wizards.
Even if you force magic into a wizard, that wizard will still always have the option of just letting it go to fallout.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 28, 2012, 09:32:27 PM
TBH, I think you've lost the spirit of the attack you're going for. (no punn intented).

It might be better to make it a straight physical spirit attack that targets pressure points.  It's just a weapon "X" spirit evocation, except you frame the stress as slowly paralyzing the target, hampering their movements, causing excrutiating pain, etc... you know, pressure point, chi stuff.

With wizards, it's actually a more effective attack because you're targeting a weak skill, athletics...maybe endurance.

The thing you can do with this though, is make declarations around chi'ness.  So maybe it certain circumstances you can bypass toughness because you're hitting pressure points instead of trying to rip your foe apart.  You could even compel a wizards consequences to say that it bypasses his wizards toughness, forcing him to go find someone to get the damage cured.  Because it's not a healing wounds, but a matter of realigning energies. 

I actually think that makes for a better wizard killer than targeting their highest skill and longest stress track anyways.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 28, 2012, 09:40:27 PM
TBH, I think you've lost the spirit of the attack you're going for. (no punn intented).

It might be better to make it a straight physical spirit attack that targets pressure points.  It's just a weapon "X" spirit evocation, except you frame the stress as slowly paralyzing the target, hampering their movements, causing excrutiating pain, etc... you know, pressure point, chi stuff.

With wizards, it's actually a more effective attack because you're targeting a weak skill, athletics...maybe endurance.

The thing you can do with this though, is make declarations around chi'ness.  So maybe it certain circumstances you can bypass toughness because you're hitting pressure points instead of trying to rip your foe apart.  You could even compel a wizards consequences to say that it bypasses his wizards toughness, forcing him to go find someone to get the damage cured.  Because it's not a healing wounds, but a matter of realigning energies. 

I actually think that makes for a better wizard killer than targeting their highest skill and longest stress track anyways.


This seems like the best path.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 28, 2012, 09:58:29 PM
Even if you force magic into a wizard, that wizard will still always have the option of just letting it go to fallout.

How do you know this? Im curious. Has there been examples of it somewhere that I am not familar with?

With wizards, it's actually a more effective attack because you're targeting a weak skill, athletics...maybe endurance.

I actually think that makes for a better wizard killer than targeting their highest skill and longest stress track anyways.

I am aware of this. Which is why I dont think this attack is that overpowered. I can easily attack the physical side and have them defend with their weaker skills.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 28, 2012, 10:34:03 PM
If you want to do mental damage in order to inflict long term consequences and skip by all the law stuff, I'd make it a power and make it exactly like Addictive Saliva.  You lose all damage bonuses and do a straight fists attack.  Reskin however you like.  If it messes with magic, then that's what it does - although, if it only affects magic, you're limiting its usefulness.  As long as the group agrees with the chosen theme, we already know it's balanced since it's an established power.  It still means that you might have to deal with Wardens, but there's no risk of Lawbreaker powers.

Personally, I don't have a hang-up regarding magic and the mental track.  I think they are one in the same.  If you're crippling someone's magic, you're dealing mental stress and vice versa.  But I already voiced that on, like, page two or something - so there's no need to rehash that.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 28, 2012, 11:04:35 PM
I shouldnt have to deal with wardens as the attack stands. There is no lawbreaker. Also I have paid 4 refresh for the ability to do this attack. I could make the Addictive saliva attack reskin and have an extrememly limited version of it, where I am only attacking magic for 1 refresh. It doesnt seem like there is any hangups to this attack, barring what Mr Death said earlier, which I would like to know where he got that from.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 28, 2012, 11:14:35 PM
Are you talking about the fallout thing?

I think he just means that if a spellcaster fails to control a spell, (s)he can choose to take the difference as backlash or as fallout.

So, if you're forcing a spell on someone and they fail to control that energy, they'd just be able to have all the uncontroled magic go out as fallout instead of backlash...
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 28, 2012, 11:19:57 PM
1. Didn't you design a power that allowed for mental immunity? Why bother create this power if you didnt think anybody was going to use it. Also if I had a character who did Incite emotions, would you really be debating it as much?
2. Thats kind of the point.
3. Yea the old one was how it was originally thought of but as I thought of it more this is what I went with. Basically the attack is forcing them to take backlash.
6. The power let me do a couple things. Moved Discipline to Endurance, Conviction to Fists and something else that I cant remember right now.

Also as far as this attack goes, let me see if I can reword this attack so that everyone understands what I am trying to do.

I want to attack an opponent with my fists and imbue them with my magic, basically forcing them to take backlash. I feel now that this could be done to any person, regardless of if they were a caster or not.  Now, since it is a fist attack, it could be defended against by athletics and the like, but it is also a magic attack so it could be defended with dicipline and stuff like that as well. I dont feel that it should ignore any armor, because it is a fist attack. A fireball doesnt ignore armor, why should this attack. The thing is that I am targeting their mental stress. I dont think of it as a psychic attack and thus bypasses everything that they can defend with. Its end result simply would hit the mental stress track.

1. Yes. Mental Immunity would cost more if mental evocation was possible. It's designed to work against Incite Emotion, Domination, Thaumaturgy, and other such things. Mindless might still be good at its current cost though.

2. You want it to be ineffective?

3. Interesting idea. I mean, normally the guy taking backlash can choose to take it physically or to take fallout instead, but still. Cool idea.

6. Assuming you mean Natural Channel, I tracked it down and I'm pretty sure it's supposed to cost 1 Refresh. Then again, Martial Mojo arguably shouldn't provide a rebate. So maybe it balances out.

Physical armour generally only applies to physical attacks. You could make an exception, but people using mental evocations with different justifications would still get to ignore physical armour. Unless you banned those different justifications, of course.

Sorry Levecki, but I just wanted to add some more  :P


@ Sanctaphrax:  RCV's addictive saliva does the same thing as WCV attack...have a read:

...

You'll notice too that RCV uses FISTS to do MENTAL STRESS.  Sorry, now that I read this it sounds like I'm being an ass.  I'm actually just trying to point out the relevant parts.

Don't worry, you're not behaving badly.

I think you're misreading, though.

Incite Emotion doesn't lose any of its power if you take an odd consequence against it. You can still tag or invoke that consequence. Sure, usually people will take consequences reflecting the onset of the incited emotion. But if a celibate monk chooses to take a self-loathing-related consequence when hit with Incite Lust, that's not a problem. It's actually pretty cool.

Addictive Saliva, meanwhile, does lose its power if you take an odd consequence against it. Which is probably why it specifically restricts the range of consequences that its targets can take. It has a special rule, right there. (I had forgotten about this one because it basically never gets used.)

Anyway, Incite Emotion and Addictive Saliva are fair because they don't have the enormous weapon ratings of Evocation. You can't going toss out an accuracy 9 weapon 9 mental attack with Addictive Saliva, but you can with mental Evocation.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 29, 2012, 05:16:52 AM
How do you know this? Im curious. Has there been examples of it somewhere that I am not familar with?
The wizards' whole deal is moving and expelling magic. That is literally the thing they do that defines them as a wizard. You'd have to do a lot more to force them to take backlash than just putting magic into them.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 29, 2012, 06:49:04 AM
And forcing them to take that backlash as mental instead of physical stress...
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mrmdubois on November 29, 2012, 11:20:40 AM
TBH, I think you've lost the spirit of the attack you're going for. (no punn intented).

It might be better to make it a straight physical spirit attack that targets pressure points.  It's just a weapon "X" spirit evocation, except you frame the stress as slowly paralyzing the target, hampering their movements, causing excrutiating pain, etc... you know, pressure point, chi stuff.

With wizards, it's actually a more effective attack because you're targeting a weak skill, athletics...maybe endurance.

The thing you can do with this though, is make declarations around chi'ness.  So maybe it certain circumstances you can bypass toughness because you're hitting pressure points instead of trying to rip your foe apart.  You could even compel a wizards consequences to say that it bypasses his wizards toughness, forcing him to go find someone to get the damage cured.  Because it's not a healing wounds, but a matter of realigning energies. 

I actually think that makes for a better wizard killer than targeting their highest skill and longest stress track anyways.

This.

The wizards' whole deal is moving and expelling magic. That is literally the thing they do that defines them as a wizard. You'd have to do a lot more to force them to take backlash than just putting magic into them.

This is interesting, and I agree.  Normally they take a point of stress when doing that, think it would still apply or is it more like hucking a hex?

Forcing a wizard to start throwing around Fallout so they don't take Backlash inflicted by someone else could be fun.  I suspect mostly for the GM of course.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 29, 2012, 02:17:11 PM
Ok so I was thinking about this on the way here. A wizard takes 1 point of mental stress for each spell they have to control right. Since I originally designed this as a rote spell, what if it was a 1 Shift attack and the Control roll is how many hits it did. So rolling an 8 to attack would inflict 8 stress (if they roll 0). However when they defend they succesfully "deflect" those points. Thus they take 1 shift for each "hit"

What do y'all think?

The wizards' whole deal is moving and expelling magic. That is literally the thing they do that defines them as a wizard. You'd have to do a lot more to force them to take backlash than just putting magic into them.

I really dont think so. Its foreign magic. If that were the case then they would be able to simply ignore every attack that hits them because they can control magic. I feel that if I attack them and they use a control type defense and I still come out ahead, then I have caused them to not control it to the point that they want because it is foreign magic. I am using "forced backlash" as a descriptor to justify why they would be taking mental damage. The point is that I injected them with magic and if they fail to control it all it gets into their system and causes mental stress.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Mr. Death on November 29, 2012, 03:17:58 PM
I really dont think so. Its foreign magic. If that were the case then they would be able to simply ignore every attack that hits them because they can control magic.
No. You're thinking of it entirely the wrong way. Throwing fire at someone is not forcing magic into them. It's throwing fire at someone.

You're talking about putting energy, raw magic, into a person in such a way that it has to cause backlash. That is completely different from hitting them with a regular attack. Once the magic is inside them, how are you forcing them to choose what they do with the magic that is now inside them?

It's like throwing someone a lit firecracker. Your goal is that they hold onto it and go boom (backlash), but unless you're taping it to their hands, they can still throw the damn thing away (fallout).
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 29, 2012, 03:21:30 PM
again. I am using forced backlash as a descriptor to get at the point of what I am doing. In reality I am using spirit magic to cause them that same effect. The magic that I am putting in them has that restriction because of the spell. Its more like throwing them a firecracker while they are trapped in a glass box.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 29, 2012, 03:50:58 PM
DFrpg is a narrative-driven game, so if what you're ACTUALLY trying to do, NARRATIVELY, isn't 'forced backlash', then please describe what it IS, or we're not going to be able to help you, here.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 29, 2012, 04:16:50 PM
I have said multiple times that this is not forced backlash. It is LIKE forced backlash in the way it affects their mind. I understand it is about narrative which is why I was trying to give everyone something to go on so that they could understand where I am comming from.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 29, 2012, 05:42:41 PM
I was trying to give everyone something to go on so that they could understand where I am coming from.
But you aren't. Everything you are coming from is entirely from the mechanical side of things. Describe an attack as you see it work out. Without using things like shifts or backlash. If that makes sense, we can work from there.

On a side note:
Going from most of Harry's descriptions about him casting spells, it seems to me that it is far more a physical than a mental thing. For the game mechanics though, it makes sense to put casting stress on a different track, since a wizard would be killing himself, if he was casting spells, taking away what little physical stress he can take. The mental stress track is a good candidate for that.
If you don't want to add a "magic" track, similar to hunger. Which might not be the worst thing, now that I think about it. After all, it's just something to keep the wizard from being able to

Even the consequences Harry suggests somewhere in the book, like "seeing purple" sound much more physical to me than mental. It's something that could happen if you overexercise, and has nothing to do with your mental state.

For me, mental things would be something like an opponent shaking my resolve by taunting me before a fight. A pretty girl flirting with me in a bar to play with my mind. A loved one dying in my arms. Being the victim of torture. If those things happen to me, then yes, that will probably leave some mental scarring. Sometimes it might not be much and I shrug it off, sometimes it will lead to a consequence. But all the same, that comes from outside. Now if you want to inflict that same "damage" onto me as those kinds of situation might do, but from the inside and by your own magic, then that is going to leave a mark on you as well. Hence lawbreaker.

The major problem, I repeat, is the mixing of conflicts. If you are in a physical conflict, deal physical stress. Or, if you don't want to do that, for whatever reason, change the pace. Turn the physical conflict into a mental one, I've proposed a way to do so as well. Otherwise, things will just become too complicated on a number of levels.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 29, 2012, 06:08:49 PM
But you aren't. Everything you are coming from is entirely from the mechanical side of things. Describe an attack as you see it work out. Without using things like shifts or backlash. If that makes sense, we can work from there.

I will do my best on this: In an attempt to overcharge and drain his opponent Jimmy uses an attack that will inject spiritual energy into his opponent. With a few quick light touches, he injects the energy into what he believes to be focal points for spiritual energies, in an attempt to disrupt them.

If this is not what you are looking for then I'm confused as to what the narative side is and clearly cant convey that to you.

Even the consequences Harry suggests somewhere in the book, like "seeing purple" sound much more physical to me than mental. It's something that could happen if you overexercise, and has nothing to do with your mental state.

I believe this is a little of both. The reason you are seeing purple is because your brain isnt getting enough oxygen because it is using that oxygen for your other muscles. Its a combination of mental and physical.

For me, mental things would be something like an opponent shaking my resolve by taunting me before a fight. A pretty girl flirting with me in a bar to play with my mind.
I believe these are social things

A loved one dying in my arms. Being the victim of torture. If those things happen to me, then yes, that will probably leave some mental scarring. Sometimes it might not be much and I shrug it off, sometimes it will lead to a consequence. But all the same, that comes from outside. Now if you want to inflict that same "damage" onto me as those kinds of situation might do, but from the inside and by your own magic, then that is going to leave a mark on you as well. Hence lawbreaker.

Yes, but I am using the same justification as magic so, in my oppinion, its moot.

The major problem, I repeat, is the mixing of conflicts. If you are in a physical conflict, deal physical stress. Or, if you don't want to do that, for whatever reason, change the pace. Turn the physical conflict into a mental one, I've proposed a way to do so as well. Otherwise, things will just become too complicated on a number of levels.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 29, 2012, 07:43:38 PM
I will do my best on this: In an attempt to overcharge and drain his opponent Jimmy uses an attack that will inject spiritual energy into his opponent. With a few quick light touches, he injects the energy into what he believes to be focal points for spiritual energies, in an attempt to disrupt them.
Okay.  This could use a little bit more detail, but it's workable.  Of course, 'overcharge and drain' isn't what I would call definitive of an attack inflicting mental stress.  Maybe that part is in the 'more detail'?



I believe this is a little of both. The reason you are seeing purple is because your brain isnt getting enough oxygen because it is using that oxygen for your other muscles. Its a combination of mental and physical.
That all sounds physical to me.  Just because it involves the brain doesn't mean it's mental.

I believe these are social things
The difference between mental and social is often one of wording.  (Being distraced would be mental, while being seen to be distracted is social.)

Yes, but I am using the same justification as magic so, in my oppinion, its moot.
And yet reading your own mind, transforming yourself, and even killing yourself through the use of magic is not Lawbreaking.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 29, 2012, 07:52:31 PM
Okay.  This could use a little bit more detail, but it's workable.  Of course, 'overcharge and drain' isn't what I would call definitive of an attack inflicting mental stress.  Maybe that part is in the 'more detail'?
I am using a narative spin that you all want me to use. I have already given my MECHANICAL reasoning behind it and what it does MECHANICALLY. Just because I cant NARATIVLY describe it in a way that you all want does not make the attack wrong or not working in the way that you view it. I understand that this game is a NARATIVE game, yet when making things one must look at the MECHANICAL side of it or else you will never be able to make anything. Every power, every stunt, every attack has a MECHANICAL side, even if the NARATIVE varies between users.

That all sounds physical to me.  Just because it involves the brain doesn't mean it's mental.
I didnt make the game. Talk to the guys at Evil Hat.

The difference between mental and social is often one of wording.  (Being distraced would be mental, while being seen to be distracted is social.)
I dont get the difference. If someone distracts me and its internal thats supposed to be mental but if I show it openly thats social? Thats more confusing than a physical attack doing mental stress. At least mine has mechanical justification (which apparently doesnt matter so nevermind).

And yet reading your own mind, transforming yourself, and even killing yourself through the use of magic is not Lawbreaking.

And yet, I am not doing any of those things to the target.


EDIT: I may have overreacted. I am just getting frusturated. I appologize
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 29, 2012, 07:53:52 PM
Even the consequences Harry suggests somewhere in the book, like "seeing purple" sound much more physical to me than mental. It's something that could happen if you overexercise, and has nothing to do with your mental state.
This is description.  He may be seeing an aura.  The backlash has made him sensitive to those, usually, invisible energies.  Kind of the spiritual version of what happens to your ears after listening to loud music: psychic tinitus.


The major problem, I repeat, is the mixing of conflicts. If you are in a physical conflict, deal physical stress. Or, if you don't want to do that, for whatever reason, change the pace. Turn the physical conflict into a mental one, I've proposed a way to do so as well. Otherwise, things will just become too complicated on a number of levels.

I'm going to point you back to Addictive saliva that uses a fists attack to deliver mental damage.

I'd like to add, Haru, that I loved your suggestion of tagging an aspect and entering a separate, mental, conflict.  Unfortunately, it doesn't really fit the theme of the character.

I'll have a go at a description that fits Lavecki's criteria - I have an idea...I just have to think about it some more.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Tedronai on November 29, 2012, 08:15:37 PM
I am using a narative spin that you all want me to use. I have already given my MECHANICAL reasoning behind it and what it does MECHANICALLY. Just because I cant NARATIVLY describe it in a way that you all want does not make the attack wrong or not working in the way that you view it. I understand that this game is a NARATIVE game, yet when making things one must look at the MECHANICAL side of it or else you will never be able to make anything. Every power, every stunt, every attack has a MECHANICAL side, even if the NARATIVE varies between users.
If what you're really after is the mechanical effect of mental stress, I'd be glad to help you come up with the narrative descriptions of several attacks that would suit that effect.  The objections you are receiving (from me, at least) are derived primarily from the disconnect between your descriptions and the mechanics you have chosen to represent them.

I dont get the difference. If someone distracts me and its internal thats supposed to be mental but if I show it openly thats social? Thats more confusing than a physical attack doing mental stress. At least mine has mechanical justification (which apparently doesnt matter so nevermind).
Being seen to be distracted doesn't require you to be actually distracted.  The problems it causes for you are derived from how people react to you, believing that you are distracted.
Actually being distracted doesn't require that those around you perceive your distraction.  The problems that it causes for you are derived from the information that you fail to perceive while you are focused on the object of your distraction.

And yet, I am not doing any of those things to the target.
I was pointing out the difference between doing something to yourself (such as taking mental stress/consequences as a byproduct of spellcasting) and doing something to someone else (invading their mind in a traumatic and harmful manner).  One is Lawbreaking, the other is just dangerous
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 29, 2012, 09:02:23 PM
If what you're really after is the mechanical effect of mental stress, I'd be glad to help you come up with the narrative descriptions of several attacks that would suit that effect.  The objections you are receiving (from me, at least) are derived primarily from the disconnect between your descriptions and the mechanics you have chosen to represent them.
I dont feel that they are. I am pushing in a spirit spell that invades the magic users system causing an effect akin to if they had miscast their own spell. Is that better?

Being seen to be distracted doesn't require you to be actually distracted.  The problems it causes for you are derived from how people react to you, believing that you are distracted. Actually being distracted doesn't require that those around you perceive your distraction.  The problems that it causes for you are derived from the information that you fail to perceive while you are focused on the object of your distraction.
So basically, my social character designed to distract you hasnt actually distracted you because he is attacking your social stress but not your mental stress?

Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 29, 2012, 09:13:46 PM
Like Tedronai said, those examples can me mental and social, and it depends on what purpose they serve. That is decided when entering the conflict.
In the examples, I could get into a mental conflict with my opponent, snarking and intimidating each other, to make him less confident in himself when the actual fight starts.
Or, if he and I are the leaders of a group, the initial snark could be intended not to shake the opponents confidence, but his status among his peers. It would be the exact same conflict with the exact same rolls, but it would be social stress instead, because the focus of the scene is different.

The same goes for the girl in the bar. Let's say she's a friend of my ex, who wants to hurt me, because I dumped her friend. This would be a mental conflict.
If, on the other hand, her plan was to humiliate me as revenge, make me act like a fool in a bar I visit frequently, it would become a social conflict. Again, the exact same rolls, the exact same scene, but on a different stress track.


Quote
I am using a narative spin that you all want me to use. I have already given my MECHANICAL reasoning behind it and what it does MECHANICALLY. Just because I cant NARATIVLY describe it in a way that you all want does not make the attack wrong or not working in the way that you view it. I understand that this game is a NARATIVE game, yet when making things one must look at the MECHANICAL side of it or else you will never be able to make anything. Every power, every stunt, every attack has a MECHANICAL side, even if the NARATIVE varies between users.
Yes, but you are still putting the cart before the donkey here. Different narrative descriptions can be pooled into the same mechanics (and vice versa). That does not mean, that it is a good idea to start with a mechanic and wrap the narrative around it. It will almost always be wonky at best.

Quote
I will do my best on this: In an attempt to overcharge and drain his opponent Jimmy uses an attack that will inject spiritual energy into his opponent. With a few quick light touches, he injects the energy into what he believes to be focal points for spiritual energies, in an attempt to disrupt them.
It's not the best, but it'll do for now. I agree with Tedronai, this is pretty disconnected from what you are trying to do mechanically. As a magically enhanced martial arts attack, a physical attack, this would be just fine. As a mental attack? I just don't see it, sorry.

Besides that, I believe that conflicts should stick to one type and only involve the others as maneuvers. I don't know if it says so outright in the books, but I believe it is at least implied, when they talk about setting up a scene. This is one of the problems I have with your idea, that it crosses this line. What happens, when a wizard is taken out mentally by your attacks? He will still fight you physically, since he is not taken out there. You would be fighting two separate conflicts at once, that just don't go well together.



I just had another idea of how to make this work. Kind of mix and matching a lot of ideas that have been there before.
An anti-magic grapple.
Works just like a normal grapple, using fists instead of might. Since it involves shifting magical energies around, it should probably be at least a -1 power to allow it, instead of just a stunt. Here's how it works:
1. Put up a maneuver on the target, just like you would for a normal grapple (for example "blocked chi")
2. Invoke that maneuver to enter a grapple. This will however not be a real, physical grapple, it will be a magical one, meaning it blocks only magical actions.
3. Each subsequent exchange, you roll fists to keep up your anti-magic-grapple.
Standard grapple rules apply. That means you can inflict 1 shift of physical stress as a supplemental action, each time you roll to renew that grapple.

So with the maneuver, you strike the target and shove the first batch of energy into it, preparing to cut him off from his power. After that, you strike the focus points again, charging them with even more raw energy, overloading your targets systems. Slightly altering your strikes, you can make the overload so painful, that he will eventually black out from the pain. You could even use that pain to force your target to move in a certain direction (the "move your target one zone" action of the grapple rules).

So, what do you think?
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 29, 2012, 09:27:56 PM
This is an excellent way of doing it.  And it slowly eats one box at a time, which gradually makes spellcasting more risky.

Does it really require a stunt?  By the rules of grappling, any kind of grapple could be justified, depending on the attack...there's that side bar.  Wouldn't this be an example of a different kind of grapple?

Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 29, 2012, 09:44:19 PM
This is an excellent way of doing it.  And it slowly eats one box at a time, which gradually makes spellcasting more risky.
It should still be physical stress, not mental, I think.

Quote
Does it really require a stunt?  By the rules of grappling, any kind of grapple could be justified, depending on the attack...there's that side bar.  Wouldn't this be an example of a different kind of grapple?
Well, since it involves shoving the powers of creation up someone else's chakras, I'd say it should be a -1 power. Since the original idea involved channeling, it actually frees up 1 point of refresh.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 29, 2012, 10:10:47 PM
I think that works, I actually had a discussion about it with Addicted2aa IRL. I think someone else said that this would be impossible when it was suggested earlier. The fact that it is physical stress doesnt really bother me because it kind of is physical stress that he would be dealing anyway, and 1 stress makes sense because he is doing very light taps.

However, just going back for a moment, I wasnt finding a mechanic and wraping narrative around it. I was giving narrative and placing a mechanical justification for it. However y'all didnt like my justification and kept focusing on that. But I digress.

I do like the grapple idea though. It works better with the original idea of the attack. I dont think that I should have to take a stunt or a power though because I have already spent 3 points towards being able to do this.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 30, 2012, 12:39:45 AM
I mean, considering a normal grapple does physical damage and prevents ALL actions, including magic already, it doesn't really make sense to make it a separate power.  Maybe just the stunt to use fists instead instead of might.

I don't know.  I like the idea of a mental grapple that only stops spellcasting.  Seems cooler.

Edit:  If you consider that he can ONLY block spells, then I think it's probably not worth another refresh.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 30, 2012, 01:07:05 PM
Would it be narratively appropriate to have it as a reskinned grapple because I am hitting pressure points? Basically a grapple that requires fists to work instead of might (in this case I would be willing to take a stunt). Thus I am blocking all of thier moves by disabling their muscles.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 30, 2012, 01:19:52 PM
I would require a -1 power, but if the character already had channeling(spirit) or full evocation, I'd let him do it through that. Though the maneuver to tag should be a spell type thing.

Would it be narratively appropriate to have it as a reskinned grapple because I am hitting pressure points? Basically a grapple that requires fists to work instead of might (in this case I would be willing to take a stunt). Thus I am blocking all of thier moves by disabling their muscles.
That's exactly, what I was proposing, yes.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Lavecki121 on November 30, 2012, 02:39:20 PM
Oh I thought you were proposing a magic only block that acted as a grapple.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Haru on November 30, 2012, 03:08:48 PM
Well, since everywhere above, the theme was "blocking a wizard", I thought it would be best if I labeled it like that. But a complete grapple like you propose would work as well, of course. As long as you follow the grapple rules, you can put up pretty much any grapple you like. Which means, you'd have to focus solely on your grapple victim, even though you are not actually holding him down, you have to keep pinching pressure points every now and again, to keep him under, so you can't so much of anything else or the target can get free.

There's where mechanics and narrative comes in again. Narratively, one guy uses his strength to restrain someone, the other one uses his knowledge of pressure points to restrain someone. Both use the grapple mechanics.
Title: Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
Post by: Taran on November 30, 2012, 03:26:49 PM
Yeah, because logistically, if it only blocked magic, it would be weird:

He can only use his magic on people in the same zone, so if he can't block movement, then all the wizard has to do is change zones and he's screwed.

Could you do a "quivering palm" type things.  So the trope for that is you touch someone with the quivering palm and you can, at any time - some say up to a year later - cause that person to die.  So they don't need to be in the same zone or anything.

So for the grapple, he'd make the equivalent of a quivering palm attack. 
(this is simply, the maneuver used to start the grapple. It requires a fists attack and therfore must be done in the same zone as the target. It will enable the link and open the channel between him and his target)

He then must concentrate on the target each round to continue blocking spells/doing damage.
(This just means that he makes his skill roll every round to maintain the grapple and still get to do his suplementals)  NOTE:  this grapple ONLY BLOCKS SPELLS

Things that can break the block: 
- anything that breaks the block...Since it blocks a victims spells, any spell that beats the block is going to ruin his "grapple"
- broken line of sight.   So fleeing would be o.k.  Creative declarations that give the target cover or concealment could also work.

Thoughts?

Also...I still think it should be mental.