I'd cut down on the number of skills, actually, and explicitly include "placeholder" skills for when skills get really high.
Also, what skill would you assign the Exactly as Planned trapping to?
Do you think this would see an increase in stunts in order to differentiate styles?
Because it does change the flavor of the skill somewhat if one skill covers all the physical means of mayhem and one other covers all of the ranged options.
You can fix somewhat with Aspects and narrative, but it doesn't really change the underlying framework of your proposed change to mechanics.
I totally agree that more people should be crafting though, making Athletics less mandatory, and the social stuff. Plus I'm also curious what you'd do with Burglary exactly.
I'd take Intimidate and Deceit and combine it into "Manipulate", and probably find a way to combite Rapport and Empathy into something that sounds good. Really social skills are out of control, there are way too many of them (Rapport, Deceit, Intimidate, Presence), playing a "social character" means gimping you so badly in almost all other areas that its hardly feasible, especially since Social Combat doesn't come up nearly as often as the other types.
This is in addition to Sanctaphrax's edit, since I like what he did there. :)
Also, since cutting down on the number of skills in the game radically drops the shelf life of a game, I'd implement my "increased skill floor" idea to compensate. I mean, once you have all the skills you cant actually progress further, which I always thought was silly even if it is completely unlikely that one character would have every skill rated at some number.
The increased skill floor is a mechanic that is added into the rules for improving characters. Instead of raising the skill cap for all skills by one at certain milestones I advocate the option to raise the "floor" by one as well. The Floor starts at 0, and by raising it to 1 any skill that has no skill points invested in it is treated as if it had 1 skill point invested in it for all purposes (including for purposes of skill columns).
I perfer to keep the mind set that it's the GM's responsibility to come up with scenarios and situations were every character has their time in the spotlight and play to/against the characters strengths/weaknesses.
Ever since Spycraft I’ve been entranced by the idea of simulating car chases in RPGs. I’ve worked up homebrew chase mechanics for everything from Savage Worlds to ORE, but hadn’t tackled FATE yet. This scene was pivotal, and I wanted to emphasize the monster-hunting bikers aspect of the campaign by having a chase. But because I didn’t have anything concrete mechanically ready to go, I asked the table. We felt the “default” suggestion of “best X of Y” rolls wasn’t going to be satisfying. The SOTC idea of “follow the leader’s roll” was too simple - again, not varied or satisfying enough. Each party in the chase had a stress track? Too fiddly, and how would you handle this three-way chase if there was only 1 stress track? I felt going back to the FATE fractal was the right idea, though, and Diaspora’s social combat popped into my mind. My ORE chase rules involve participants shifting in between abstract states or range bands, and this idea mapped well to a zone map! I hastily scribbled out the following zones on our map:
Lost
Trailing
Sight
Shoot
Ram
Cornered
Abel’s men and Dallas started in “Sight”. The gang all started in “Trailing”. The idea here was if you and another character were in the same zone, you could do that action to them. I ruled that opposed Driving checks would let you move yourself OR another character, and if you beat the DC by 3 you could move an additional zone. Abel’s goons, Rowsdower and Troy, wanted to get themselves and Dallas Junior Brown into the Shoot, Ram, or Cornered zones. Dallas wanted everyone “off the map”, and tried to keep himself down towards the “Lost” zone. The PCs mostly went after Abel’s men but worked to hinder Dallas and keep him from giving them the slip. I saw a few potentially weird conditions in this thrown-together map but the problems were specific to the map I’d designed and not the basic idea. I’ll get into that after the session writeup.
Engines roared and tires squealed as Dallas and his pursuers ripped through the strips and suburbs of Austin. It was a close thing - Dallas had a Driving +4 compared to everyone else’s +2, but the bikers used Maneuvers and teamwork to even the odds. Rowsdower and Troy got Dallas into “Shoot” - Dallas threw the Chevelle into reverse down a narrow alley and the Crown Vic followed, headlights to headlights. Troy carved up Dallas’ hood with a Micro-Uzi but Dallas blanketed the mercs’ windshield with buckshot. Rowsdower and Troy didn’t see Bill roaring up alongside them until it was too late. The former denarian host unloaded his Judge into both the Crown Vic’s left tires (it could’ve been damage, but Bill wanted to name the nature of the Aspect himself and so rolled it as a Maneuver). The black sedan trailed sparks as it slid into the main throughfare, unable to follow Dallas as he executed a perfect J-turn and headed for the highway. In zone terms, both Dallas and the PCs conspired to move the Crown Vic into the “Lost” zone.
Scott was ahead of the chase nearly the entire time. He saw Dallas trying to escape and swerved in front of a semi making for the onramp. The truck blocked the freeway exit and forced Dallas back into the rat’s nest of strip malls and Whataburgers. Dallas knew he had to get these bikers off of him one way or the other. He chanced moving Scott into the “Ram” zone (it’s like the friend zone but more violent), but it backfired. Scott’s store of FP prevented him from falling back and clever use of saved free tags led to Dallas being forced into the loading dock at the local Home Depot. The wheelman, a showoff until the end, put his blue Chevelle up on two wheels to fit through the loading door. Tires squealed, the car slid sideways, and Dallas parked his muscle car - hard - into the lumber aisles.
I really liked the idea of using a zone map for relative positioning during a chase scene, and for the most part I think it worked out well. I’m not sure how much I liked the simplification where you moved 1 zone on any success and an additional zone if you rolled 3 over the difficulty. That could be fixed by having a series of intermediate zones or obstacle ratings, then you could simply use your Driving effort-as zones moved. I do know I liked the ability to move other participants, and that’s a key feature towards making this rules variant work. That part’s taken straight from Diaspora’s social combat, though, so I probably just need to locate their SRD and reread it a bit.
Another bugbear with the system occurs when you have A chasing B who is chasing C, like the Dallas Junior Brown chase (I can’t not write his full name). You can end up with a situation where Alice rolls against Bob but manages to end up in a zone more suited for tackling Charlie, effectively using Bob’s lower skill to bootstrap her way into an advantage. Another hiccup is that when Bob is “Trailing” Charlie, he’s automatically also trailing Alice. Maybe a Venn diagram-style zone map would fix multiparty chases, I don’t know yet. I think the idea is sound, the maps just need some thought.
Shooting the car vs. shooting the driver: I ruled Kathryn’s attack on the helicopter pilot as a “RCV blood sack” situation. First, she has to be using a weapon that can penetrate the vehicle - no headshotting tank drivers with a rifle unless they’ve stuck their head out. Second, she needs to hit by 3 over the difficulty or have an appropriate Aspect to tag for effect, much like starting a grapple requires an Aspect placed first.
My car stats were basically just stress tracks (Armor:1, 3 stress boxes), but you could easily use the FATE Fractal to give them Aspects (“Supercharged”, “Last of the V8s”), Stunts/Powers (“Turbo Boost”), and Skills (“Maneuverability”, “Durability”, “Speed”). IMO car “skills” would work best as modifiers to the driver’s own skill. The stress tracks I kept low because it was fairly difficult to line up shots, so a successful shooting attempt should have significant impact.
I can get behind the idea of merging social skills, but I don't think Deceit and Intimidation go well together. Con men aren't that scary, and thugs aren't that tricky.
I don't think I would mess with the Skills very much, though certain other tweaks I use kinda change how the Skills are used. For example I kinda changed Mental and Social stress a bit in that Social stress is only inflicted by attacks meant to change the character's image, whereas Mental stress is inflicted by attacks meant to change the character's mind.
This makes Conviction useful in making an unflappable character, as it should be, and it also makes persuasive characters more powerful against casters, since they can throw them off their game with Mental attacks.
But most people who want car chases in their games want actual car chases, not a gun battle with moving cars as a set piece.
I half-assed some car chase mechanics in a session a few months back. I have the
...
Although we should maybe take car chase discussion out of here and into a separate thread, and leave this one for skills?
The good ones are. James Bond for example. And he also has a high rapport.
I don't think I would mess with the Skills very much, though certain other tweaks I use kinda change how the Skills are used. For example I kinda changed Mental and Social stress a bit in that Social stress is only inflicted by attacks meant to change the character's image, whereas Mental stress is inflicted by attacks meant to change the character's mind.
This makes Conviction useful in making an unflappable character, as it should be, and it also makes persuasive characters more powerful against casters, since they can throw them off their game with Mental attacks.
I do like the idea, but it's a pretty significant change. I'm reluctant to try it for exactly that reason.
When writing a social skill list, you should divide the skills by type of character.
Which is why I like the current social skill list. "He's a high-Rapport type" is actually a meaningful description of a character. And if my character for whatever reason deserves a high Rapport, I don't need to worry that he's going to acquire trappings that don't make sense for him.
That's also the issue I see with a lot of these adjustments. They seem to be divided by how the skills work rather than by the types of character that would take the skills.
Did that make sense?
The only time that a character statted for use of weapons or guns will actually need fists is if they've accepted a compel to that effect.
The same cannot be said of a character with high rapport needing to use deceit to accomplish the task at hand.
You just cant, you cannot be a lie detector, a liar, and a conversationalist with one stunt and one skill.
2. Rapport is the only social skill that cleanly merges with anything, though I guess you could make a case for Intimidation and Presence.
3. So if I were going to reduce the number of social skills, I'd want to write a new list entirely. Starting with the current list would probably trip me up.
4. But honestly I'd rather just make it easier to get by socially with only a few social skills. Swordsmen don't need Guns, thugs shouldn't need Rapport.
1. I don't think it's a good idea to merge Rapport with other skills. It's already the best social skill, the way I read it.
2. Rapport is the only social skill that cleanly merges with anything, though I guess you could make a case for Intimidation and Presence.
3. So if I were going to reduce the number of social skills, I'd want to write a new list entirely. Starting with the current list would probably trip me up.
4. But honestly I'd rather just make it easier to get by socially with only a few social skills. Swordsmen don't need Guns, thugs shouldn't need Rapport.
PS: Well-roundedness doesn't matter much. Effectiveness does. That being said, Fists and Footwork and Endurance won't get you far against serious opposition.
Actually...maybe we could shred Rapport and drizzle the bits into the other skills. That might kill two birds with one stone.
Good idea about the archetype list. Off the top of my head:
-Politician/businessman: Backs up Contacts and Resources with a diverse set of social skills.
-Diplomat: Goes into bad situations and resolves them through negotiation.
-Trickster: Probably some kind of supernatural, backs up magic tricks with mundane tricks.
-Thug: Good at hurting people and is damn scary.
-Nice Person: Just really nice. Not necessarily good at winning arguments, but likeable and a good shoulder to cry on.
-Leader: Inspirational and charismatic. Not necessarily tricky.
-Badass: Not necessarily capable of doing much socially, but totally unflappable.
-Face: Just really socially capable in general.
-God: Overpowered being whose general awesomeness translates into social awesomeness.
How about the Seducer/Seductress archetype?
I agree, fists+footwork+endurance wont do it, but if you pair it with powers (Strength+Claws) it does, similarly you could substitute weapons or guns, but the disadvantage is that you are weak without your tools. In any case with only 2 skills and a stunt you can be effective in any physical combat where you get your tools, regardless of the type of opposition or the goal of the combat. The same cannot be said of social combat under the current system (and also social combat sees less use).
PS: if your finding athletics to be far to potent, then yank the dodge trapping out, put a 'taking cover' trapping in guns to count as ranged defense, and 'spell defense' into discipline, and then everyone defends like skill with like skill, and then bringing a knife to a gun fight is way stronger truism.
In order to do this, I agree, we need to start from scratch. I would offer suggestions for new categories and try to tie them to the Admiral's/Sancta's character tropes. The problem is that right now I am stuck in the mindset of the skills as written, s when I think shoulder to cry on I think Empathy, and when I think likable I think Rapport.
Stunts (or powers) work. You could transplant it directly to any other skill. (I believe theirs an example in OW, that does that for lore.) You could also do more flavor appropriate ones, like:
I'm actually okay with Athletics's power level. I just think there should be (more) other ways to acquire physical defences.
Does anyone have anything to say about the social skill revision I proposed?
Hay Sancta, have you seen the FATE module for Exalted that's been floating around. I think maybe it was the WW forumite Mouse that made it? It has a pretty simplified list of skills, based on Exalted. They also use Mental conflict as trying to change someone's mind and Social conflict being about changing someone's reputation.
As far as I can tell, these are the list of Skills used in Mental or Social combat: Empathy, Integrity*, Presence, Contacting, Bureaucracy+, Resources+, Socialize*.
*Determines Stress track.
+Kinda edge cases, could be taken off the list.
Now that I look at it more closely, I can't actually find a mental attack trapping in there. Huh, well it's interesting to see someone else's thought process anyway. There seems to be complete overlap between Mental and Social skills.
Yo. (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7h8E9b1CsHgZGU1NGNiZmMtNGIzNy00ZTliLWI0YjQtOWIzMjU2NDg0YWJj/edit?hl=es)