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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: FishStampede on September 06, 2012, 11:19:43 PM

Title: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: FishStampede on September 06, 2012, 11:19:43 PM

Or, how to let them have their fun and still preserve the drama. The story I'm writing could be called "high fantasy," "My Little Pony played in the Exalted system," or  "Game of Thrones if it was published in Shonen Jump." Seriously. It works better than it sounds. Be prepared for weirdness ahead.

Anyway, my two main characters have nearly godlike power and a major theme I wish to explore is how sometimes their power can't solve every problem. In fact, aggressively using such power can make situations much worse. On the flip side, not using such power can make people resent you and think they could have done better. To this end I have one who tends towards inaction and letting situations handle themselves, while the other tends towards action. It's the latter one that is problematic.

So how do you handle extremely powerful characters, without it seeming like everything is made of kryptonite? I'll let you give me some ideas, then explain the specifics of the situation she's currently in.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 07, 2012, 02:34:09 AM

Quote from: FishStampede on September 06, 2012, 11:19:43 PM

So how do you handle extremely powerful characters, without it seeming like everything is made of kryptonite? I'll let you give me some ideas, then explain the specifics of the situation she's currently in.

By far my favourite example of this is how Mike Carey writes Lucifer in the Vertigo series of the same name; which is a combination of focusing on the other characters' issues, and a core element of Lucifer's pride being that he will play your game on your rules and win anyway.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: OZ on September 07, 2012, 04:28:10 AM

I guess my first question would be whether the characters have regular human motives. For example if one could make anyone fall in love with them, would they at some point feel cheated (possible human emotion) or would they not really care because that's the way things are supposed to be. Do they care enough about anyone to grieve if they die? Can they resurrect the dead. How many characters are there with this level of power? Do they ever find themselves in conflict with each other?

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: o_O on September 07, 2012, 06:30:03 AM

Quote from: FishStampede on September 06, 2012, 11:19:43 PM

Anyway, my two main characters have nearly godlike power and a major theme I wish to explore is how sometimes their power can't solve every problem. In fact, aggressively using such power can make situations much worse. On the flip side, not using such power can make people resent you and think they could have done better. To this end I have one who tends towards inaction and letting situations handle themselves, while the other tends towards action. It's the latter one that is problematic.

So how do you handle extremely powerful characters, without it seeming like everything is made of kryptonite? I'll let you give me some ideas, then explain the specifics of the situation she's currently in.

I would be strongly tempted to use apathy, in both a "I can have whatever I want so why should I want any one specific thing or event or goal?" sense, and in a "I am so distracted by the possibilities of this NEW chain of events/scenario that I cannot possibly remember caring about the old one" direction.   

Depressed King Log and ADHD King Stork.

(Then I'd probably crumple and burn the whole thing as being too indolently insensitive).

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: Serack on September 07, 2012, 10:08:23 AM

I'm not sure how well it might apply to your question, but Brandon Sanderson has gods in his book "Warbreaker."  There are a couple places in that book that I scratched my head because of small breaks in how the story flowed, but the way he handled the gods was very interesting.

It's been a couple years, but they didn't exactly volunteer for the job, but rather they mysteriously resurrected after dying, and gained godly powers, and were worshiped.  There was some turnover, because a god could chose one person to save that was dying but only by giving up his/her 2nd life.  However, over a long span of time, the gods that were left were rather apathetic and self centered.  Indulging in the luxury given to them by the worshipers, and doing nothing else really.

Also, the head god who had like 10x more power than the lesser gods, couldn't speak due to not having a tongue.  The priesthood had some interesting interaction with the whole dynamic, and during the course of the book a couple external factors came to play. 

Possibly the most interesting part is that the god that appeared the most apathetic, was also the one that put the most effort into going through the motions of doing what was expected of him by the worshipers (albeit while forcing himself past his disinterest). 

(click to show/hide)

And eventually he ended up saving everybody by healing just the right person.  An unusual messianic story. 

There was also a really odd magic system interwoven through the whole thing, this being Sanderson and all.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: LizW65 on September 07, 2012, 01:40:04 PM

Maybe assign each of your characters a finite amount of power, and every time they use some of it it's gone for good? (I'm still working on my coffee; I'll try and think of something better when I'm fully awake.)

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: Aminar on September 07, 2012, 02:27:58 PM

The big thing really is fear of failure.  You need to make us believe that despite amazing power these guys can fail. The best way to do that- in my mind- is to make them care.  Make their failures have catastrophic consequences to those around them...  Their people, less godlike friends, etc.  Make the threat be to those that worship them and show how hard it can be for a deity to interfere without hurting somebody else while they're at it.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: lt_murgen on September 07, 2012, 03:40:21 PM

One simple way is to make them immensly powerful, but not knowledgable.  Omnipotent does not mean omniscient.  Therefore, they hold back and use only the minimum of power needed.  Think of Superman- holding back for fear of the 'tissue paper' world he lives in.  There is a great scene in one of the DC cartoons where Superman thanks Darkseid.  Why Darkseid asks why, SUperman replies that against Darksied, he can finally, really really let loose.  The ensuing battle levels entire city blocks.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 07, 2012, 03:45:35 PM

Quote from: Aminar on September 07, 2012, 02:27:58 PM

The big thing really is fear of failure.  You need to make us believe that despite amazing power these guys can fail.

With characters that powerful, fear of success can also be worth playing with.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: o_O on September 07, 2012, 04:23:52 PM

Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 07, 2012, 03:45:35 PM

With characters that powerful, fear of success can also be worth playing with.

That seems an easy strong motivator for the laissez faire entity; I'm having trouble seeing it as a limitation on the highly active controlling one.   

Do you mean in a "dares not put it to the touch, to gain or lose it all" way?   That seems a bad fit.

Or perhaps you mean fear of success as in "Once I'm done, whatever will I do?" 

Or perhaps as an entity so used to control that it's utterly unable to self-edit?

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 07, 2012, 05:04:35 PM

Quote from: o_O on September 07, 2012, 04:23:52 PM

That seems an easy strong motivator for the laissez faire entity; I'm having trouble seeing it as a limitation on the highly active controlling one.   

I can see a highly active controlling one being nervous of reach exceeding grasp, or, depending on the precise value of godlike entailed, of consequences exceeding power to predict/manage.  Particularly if you want to give your humans theologically-significant free will that it can't predict.

Quote

Do you mean in a "dares not put it to the touch, to gain or lose it all" way?   That seems a bad fit.

No, I'd not been thinking of that as fitting here.

Quote

Or perhaps you mean fear of success as in "Once I'm done, whatever will I do?" 

Something existentially like that I can see working, yes, If I can do anything. how is any choice I make meaningful ?  If I can be anything, who am I ? 

Quote

Or perhaps as an entity so used to control that it's utterly unable to self-edit?

I'm not clearly envisioning what you are suggesting here.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 07, 2012, 05:11:21 PM

Quote from: FishStampede on September 06, 2012, 11:19:43 PM

Anyway, my two main characters have nearly godlike power and a major theme I wish to explore is how sometimes their power can't solve every problem. In fact, aggressively using such power can make situations much worse. On the flip side, not using such power can make people resent you and think they could have done better. To this end I have one who tends towards inaction and letting situations handle themselves, while the other tends towards action. It's the latter one that is problematic.

I'm presuming from "using such power can make situations much worse" that their powers are in some way limited so that they can't just... rewrite reality, or change history or whatever, as many times as needed until the situation comes out better. (I'm not actually seeing a plausible way that using omnipotence and omniscience couldn't make any given situation better, kind of by definition.)

How exactly are you defining "godlike" here ?  How do their power, their intelligence, and their access to information compare ? Are they at a scale where they still plausibly have human motivations, or are they the sort of beings that can, when they get bored on Sunday afternoon. make exact copies of a large number of different alternate-history versions of the Earth and everyone on it and stick them all together on a megastructure in the Magellanic Clouds to see what happens ?

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: o_O on September 07, 2012, 05:44:11 PM

Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on September 07, 2012, 05:04:35 PM

I'm not clearly envisioning what you are suggesting here.

Something along the lines of defining "better" as 'includes this extra direct tweak' so that "success" becomes 'reaching the untweakable',    which might conceptually be quite frightening to a "godlike" critter.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: FishStampede on September 07, 2012, 08:18:24 PM

Interesting replies. I'll try to address the bulk of the points while explaining the particular situation here.

They do essentially have human motivations (although there are no true humans in this world, more on that later). Their power is great, but it is limited and they do tire if they overextend themselves. Because of their essentially human natures, they are more prone to mental fatigue than physical. They can fall in love, they can nurse grudges, they can get angry, and they can simply be wrong as well. They can also die and get injured, though killing them is hard especially if they see it coming.

They're not omniscient, though they do have some abilities of clairvoyance within their element that can let them fake omniscience to those who don't know their limitations: One can see through the rays of the sun, the other can see in areas of darkness, but both can only look at one thing at a time through either magical or normal sight. Beyond that, they have powerful magic within their domains. The active one has powers related to the moon: darkness, cold, dreams, nocturnal beasts, and, interestingly, hope. They don't have any power outside their domains, but within their domains they are mainly limited by their endurance and creativity. In fact, a good deal of their perceived power comes from the fact that not everyone knows of their limitations.

The active one is just really coming into her power. She's been around for many, many years but has been following her inactive sister's orders for that long. Now she's trying to make her own way in the world and fix some of the problems that her sister's laissez-faire approach has caused. Most pressing at this moment is an invasion by a corsair armada.

The corsairs are from a different species with their own magic. They're extremely tall and slim with extra joints on their limbs, and move something like spiders. They also have a unique form of magic using spirits and alchemy that is as much a paradigm shift to deal with as the Canim blood magic in Codex Alera. I haven't entirely pegged down what they can do, but she has only the barest knowledge of what they are capable of as well. It's quite likely she might try something that makes perfect sense but turns out not to work as well as she thought.

My goal is to make this a difficult triumph for her. She manages to succeed by rallying the townsfolk and by defeating some great personal challenge, thus solidifying her position as a good leader and rival to her sister, whether she likes it or not (long term: not).

PS: To answer the elephant in the room: Yes, this is loosely based on My Little Pony, as hinted in the original post. Very, very loosely. They're not ponies, they're humanoids, and it diverges significantly to the point where it's basically its own thing. Hey, we're on the forums of a guy who put a Pokemon vs. Zerg fanfic on the best seller list. ;)

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: Aminar on September 08, 2012, 05:02:26 AM

Quote from: FishStampede on September 07, 2012, 08:18:24 PM

Interesting replies. I'll try to address the bulk of the points while explaining the particular situation here.

They do essentially have human motivations (although there are no true humans in this world, more on that later). Their power is great, but it is limited and they do tire if they overextend themselves. Because of their essentially human natures, they are more prone to mental fatigue than physical. They can fall in love, they can nurse grudges, they can get angry, and they can simply be wrong as well. They can also die and get injured, though killing them is hard especially if they see it coming.

They're not omniscient, though they do have some abilities of clairvoyance within their element that can let them fake omniscience to those who don't know their limitations: One can see through the rays of the sun, the other can see in areas of darkness, but both can only look at one thing at a time through either magical or normal sight. Beyond that, they have powerful magic within their domains. The active one has powers related to the moon: darkness, cold, dreams, nocturnal beasts, and, interestingly, hope. They don't have any power outside their domains, but within their domains they are mainly limited by their endurance and creativity. In fact, a good deal of their perceived power comes from the fact that not everyone knows of their limitations.

The active one is just really coming into her power. She's been around for many, many years but has been following her inactive sister's orders for that long. Now she's trying to make her own way in the world and fix some of the problems that her sister's laissez-faire approach has caused. Most pressing at this moment is an invasion by a corsair armada.

The corsairs are from a different species with their own magic. They're extremely tall and slim with extra joints on their limbs, and move something like spiders. They also have a unique form of magic using spirits and alchemy that is as much a paradigm shift to deal with as the Canim blood magic in Codex Alera. I haven't entirely pegged down what they can do, but she has only the barest knowledge of what they are capable of as well. It's quite likely she might try something that makes perfect sense but turns out not to work as well as she thought.

My goal is to make this a difficult triumph for her. She manages to succeed by rallying the townsfolk and by defeating some great personal challenge, thus solidifying her position as a good leader and rival to her sister, whether she likes it or not (long term: not).

PS: To answer the elephant in the room: Yes, this is loosely based on My Little Pony, as hinted in the original post. Very, very loosely. They're not ponies, they're humanoids, and it diverges significantly to the point where it's basically its own thing. Hey, we're on the forums of a guy who put a Pokemon vs. Zerg fanfic on the best seller list. ;)

Not Pokemon enough...  Not nearly. 

Nobodies been worried about you using Ponies as an influence.  Wouldn't be my choice, but my writing has Pokemon, Avatar(airbender and according to my girlfriend blue space people too(but really that's the zelda bit)), Zelda, X-men, Jurassic Park, The Dresden Files, Bartimaeus and a variety of other things on its list of inspiration material.  Most of those were subconscious references I figured out later, but hey.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: FishStampede on September 08, 2012, 11:55:38 AM

Quote from: Aminar on September 08, 2012, 05:02:26 AM

Not Pokemon enough...  Not nearly. 

Nobodies been worried about you using Ponies as an influence.  Wouldn't be my choice, but my writing has Pokemon, Avatar(airbender and according to my girlfriend blue space people too(but really that's the zelda bit)), Zelda, X-men, Jurassic Park, The Dresden Files, Bartimaeus and a variety of other things on its list of inspiration material.  Most of those were subconscious references I figured out later, but hey.

I think it broke my writing teacher's brain when I mentioned that my epic fantasy story was inspired by My Little Pony. She had trouble forming coherent sentences.

I've had success (later in the timeline, earlier in my writing) with challenging her by giving her conflicting goals. One large battle scene has her dealing with an eldritch abomination that has manifested as a vast, sentient supercell thunderstorm. She has to focus on battling the storm, while her support attacks the heavily fortified city below and take out the cloud factories feeding it. The Mwachi pirates don't have an eldritch abomination supporting them, but perhaps I could use a similar divide and conquer technique?

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: Quantus on September 17, 2012, 05:59:48 PM

When dealing with god-like beings the big thing I find is to have clearly defined limitations on power, lest it turn into a Deus ex Mchina situation.  You mentioned that they have specific purviews, and are more or less human outside fo that, so Id run with that.   Make sure to have problems that are outside her purview, so that she has to rely on cleverness and more mundane solutions.  If there are a bunch of different Gods showing up on stage, establsh  things that even the Gods cannot do, like Resurrection or Time Travel.  Figure out what it is the different Gods fear, or how their powers can go out of their control, and highlight it.  You mentioned a fatigue effect if they use to much;  what happens if they push it too far?  Does their power dry up temporarily? Permanently, burning out their godhood?  Do they drop off into some 100-year hibernation, leaving them vulnerable?  Or turn to stone, leaving them trapped but otherwise safe?

You mentioned the Exalted System in the OP.  If you like that one, Id highly recommend you take a look at the Scion system by the same company.  It addresses this very quandry (in RPG form), having sourcebooks that take you from generic hero all the way to full-blown pantheist God, (greek olympians, norse Aesir, etc).

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: FishStampede on September 22, 2012, 06:38:16 PM

I mention exalted, but I really try to avoid looking at RPGs for writing inspiration unless they're specifically meant for what I'm trying to write. Just a shorthand way for me to describe the sort of power some of the characters have. Still, Scion has piqued my interest in the past. I'll probably give it a look.

When they use their powers, it really just fatigues them like anything else. It's a high magic setting so everyone has SOME degree of magical talent and power. What makes the sisters special is that they have access to three different kinds of magic, their talents are very diverse, and they have much deeper wells of energy. When they use up their power they just get really tired. And like anyone who is fatigued mentally and physically, but still trying to surpass their limits, they tend to act irrationally and make stupid mistakes. For all their power, they're essentially human in mindset.

I've pretty much sketched out how the fight with the pirates will go. They use their green dust magic to create a "sea" for the ships to sail on ABOVE the waves, then the mist rolls in like a fog. The mist itself is dangerous to people caught in it, so my main has to fight them in the sky, separated from her forces below who have to deal with the stragglers who wade ashore from the non-flying ships. Up there, she ends up having to deal with cannon-bearing ships, the pirates themselves, and their powerful leader whose magic is producing the green dust.  She's relatively new at fighting so all of this together is a severe challenge.

In another scene I wrote out, I tested the limits of their immortality. A traitor manages to get the drop on the other sister and runs her through the chest. She has powerful healing, but with the downside it brings all the pain of the healed injury at once. So she puts on a great show of humbling the traitor while discreetly cauterizing the wound. Allow me to show that exerpt:

(click to show/hide)

General Yestrep leapt across the room with lightning trailing behind. Propelled by his wings, Aurora only had enough time to get one hand around the hilt of his short sword before he buried it in her chest. A slight gasp of surprise escaped her lips as blood stained her white robes.

"For Saratsin!" He hissed, "For all the lives you failed to save."

“Saratsin...your home," the princess whispered with blood at the corner of her mouth. Her eyes grew unfocused and closed.

"You could have done something," he shouted, "and for your continued failure to lead, I now take your heart."

He attempted to twist the blade, but found both of her gentle hands wrapped around his. Her grasp was soft, yet firm and inescapable as silk cord. He tried to pull free but her hands wrapped around the grip and pommel, completely trapping him.

"Your sword missed my heart," the princess said. Her eyes snapped open and filled with fire. "But only your sword."

Aurora rose from her gilt throne to her full height and left General Yestrep dangling an inch above the ground. He kicked at the princess and struck practiced blows, but to no apparent effect.

“Help me, you sandbags!” the general shouted at his guards. In response, Aurora flared to radiance. Her long multihued hair rose up as a dreadful mane and her eyes exploded with the full brightness of the sun. The traitor guards dropped their weapons and shielded their own eyes from her punishing light.

“Would you have had me crush the rebellion, General?" Aurora said "I could have given your people the horrors of a second war so soon after the last. Should I have retaliated against the griffons instead? Would they then be our allies today against the dragons?”

Her grip on the general’s hands tightened from silk cord to steel vise. Bones cracked. Joints popped. His wings beat against the air, but not a sound escaped his lips as he struggled in vain.

Aurora’s voice took on an echoing quality, her words clipped and precise. “You mistake mercy for weakness, restraint for inaction, deliberation for apathy. You think my great power gives me free reign to do as I wish.”

The smell of a crisp summer’s day turned to the smell of cooking meat, mixing with the metallic scent of Aurora’s blood. Light poured from between her fingers and starting with the hilt the sword grew red-hot, the heat slowly creeping up the blade towards the wound still staining her pale dress. The soldier turned red himself with effort as he pitted his will against the pain.

“You know not how much I wish that were the case,” she said in a whisper that nonetheless resounded through the room, “How very often I wish I could unleash my wrath on the deserving. But my power obligates me to be reasonable. To show mercy. To act truly noble and righteous, even to traitors. Do you understand me?”

“YES!”  He cried out as his will broke. Smoke poured from the hands still wrapped around the white-hot sword. He writhed in agony and twisted away from the blade to no avail. “By your mother and father, yes! I understand! I’m sorry!”

With a flash of light, Princess Aurora released the seraph general. He tumbled down the dias from her throne and fell in a heap, trembling and holding his hands. He flexed his fingers and found them unmarked and unharmed, completely without burn or bruise. Yestrep looked up at the princess in her bloodsoaked robes, and his eyes fixed on the heat-warped steel buried between her breasts.

“Then, this day, you do not deserve my wrath,” she said, returning to her throne and only now glancing at her wound. “You deserve my pity.”

I have not finished writing the next scene yet, but that is the exact limit of her immortality. As soon as the coast is clear, she collapses, barely managing to keep herself alive until her sister returns to help her heal. If he actually had run her right through the heart, the ending would have been very different.

Title: Re: Writing godlike characters (without making everything Kryptonite)
Post by: Quantus on September 24, 2012, 08:45:10 PM

The bog take-away I got from Scion (still well worth the look on its own rights, it was inspired by American Gods, and could be thought of as an RPG for that in many respects) is that a God is God-like within the bounds of his purview, but not much better than an average mortal outside of it.  They may all be a little more durable, or some such base-line powers as you choose, but an awesomely powerful God of Fire and Death might still have to hitchhike to get across the country, while a Trickster God might not have much in the way of direct conflict Might.  A God of the Forrest might be useless in a modern social situation, or taken to an extreme might loose power when away from its domain.  It was also heavily tied up in the artifacts of legend that are central to so may of the classic myths, not sure if that necessarily fits with your world, but its fun and helpful when building the Legend that such characters are supposed to fill.