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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: gatordave96 on August 22, 2012, 02:37:03 AM
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I've been using John Clements' "Medieval Swordsmanship - Illustrated Methods and Techniques" as my "go to" guide for writing fight scenes, but wondered if any of the other writers out there have any good sources that they use and would be willing to share. I'd prefer to find something with illustrations since I learn more visually. Any help would be welcome.
Also, do you have a feel for how many major fight scenes you like to see in the average novel? Some of the worst crap that I've ever read seems to have some sort of fight scene every other chapter.
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I go out and fight... Simulated combat isn't too hard to find(Between Boffer and Paintball) and even a few hours of fighting helps teach the basic mentalities that go into fighting. Spend a day a week at it for a year and you'll know most of what you need to. As long as you're writing from a soldiers perspective at least. You'll need something separate for real fear, but otherwise the exercise is great and your action scenes will get eighty times better.
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Blocking out a fight as you would a dance or other theatrical performance can also be a great help in terms of where you want all the participants to be at the start, where they move/end up, and so on.
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Blocking out a fight as you would a dance or other theatrical performance can also be a great help in terms of where you want all the participants to be at the start, where they move/end up, and so on.
Just remember that fights aren't pretty or coordinated. Fighters can be. Duels can be. Battles aren't. Battles are messy and confusing and terrifying and when you die its probably to someone you didn't know was there.
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I guy I know wrote this (http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Martial-Arts-Illustrated-Muscles/dp/1569757879/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345653876&sr=1-7&keywords=norman+link)which is at least illustrated. Some of it isn't exactly practical per say (like the handstand board break that his wife is so proud of). But it does offer an accurate view of the mechanics involved.
Edit: Fixed link
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Which Hapkido one?
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Sorry, wrong link
http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Martial-Arts-Illustrated-Muscles/dp/1569757879/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345653876&sr=1-7&keywords=norman+link
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Just remember that fights aren't pretty or coordinated. Fighters can be. Duels can be. Battles aren't. Battles are messy and confusing and terrifying and when you die its probably to someone you didn't know was there.
Mercedes Lackey actually in one of her books had one character explain to another just what a real battle is like. Pretty damn good explaination of the mess, confusion, and what the other side is truly trying to do to you.
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Mercedes Lackey actually in one of her books had one character explain to another just what a real battle is like. Pretty damn good explaination of the mess, confusion, and what the other side is truly trying to do to you.
War and Peace by Tolstoy has a similar scene. A character is at the headquarters unit, watching couriers come and tell the general what's going on and then departing with new orders. He realizes by the time the courier gets back to that part of the battle, the situation would probably have changed and the orders would be useless. Its an excellent scene well worth reading.
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War and Peace by Tolstoy has a similar scene. A character is at the headquarters unit, watching couriers come and tell the general what's going on and then departing with new orders. He realizes by the time the courier gets back to that part of the battle, the situation would probably have changed and the orders would be useless. Its an excellent scene well worth reading.
Walky talkies changed warfare forever. Don't forget it.(Seriously think about it... The changes are nuts.)
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Cool book, Quantus! Thank you!
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Cool book, Quantus! Thank you!
Any time :) The author is someone one Ive known him my whole life, and probably one of the stranger individuals Ive ever seen or heard of. 7th dan Hapkido master, Electrical engineer working as a senior scientist for a space/defense contractor (playing with the kind of high power toys I dream about, terawatt stuff), massive trecky, and every year his family christmas picture includes some new dinosaur bone for his collection. And his tiny asian wife (5th dan) is probably one of the scariest people Ive ever met... Tiny but Fierce indeed!
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Ordered the book over Amazon. Many thanks, Quantus.
Glad to know that unlike Fight Club, the folks here will talk about fighting.
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Walky talkies changed warfare forever. Don't forget it.(Seriously think about it... The changes are nuts.)
I was thinking of folks writing various sword and horses type stories - or any story where the armies don't have wireless or similar tech/magic.
Sort of related to this: I was watching the old show Tour of Duty and on the first episode the sergeant wants to call in an artillery strike. He begins to scramble over obstacles and through trenches and such. I was thinking why doesn't he just use his walkie? He eventually reaches the corpse of a radioman and the radio and it hits me that he doesn't have a walkie. I was so used to watching SG:1 and 24, where every one has some sort of wireless, that I didn't realize they weren't in common use in Vietnam. (Or at least that's what that episode of Tour of Duty showed.)
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One of the first things to decide before you go looking for research material is the kinds of fight scenes you want to write. Do you want harsh and bloody with lots of realism? A focus on the mental processes and emotion? Or epic heroism with nearly impossible feats of physical prowess?
Then find books which have those scenes and read the hell out of them. When I was younger, my dad handed me a copy of Conan the Freebooter and read a passage that featured Conan riding through a battlefield. In just a single paragraph, Conan's skill was shown, his fighting style, his vast knowledge of various weapons, and his demeanor on the battlefield.
Make sure there's more to your fight scene than just the thrusts and parries, that it tells a story the same way a choreographed dance piece does, and you'll do fine.
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Well I think you really have to decide how real you want your scenes to be. From what I have read you seem to want realistic and I can give some insight and tips into that, at least as far as fist fighting goes.
Some back ground, I have 21 years of martial arts experiance, starting with karate then into wrestling and then into jiu jitsu. I also have about 7 years experiance working as a doorman in various bars and because of that I have been in more fights than I care to talk about.
Now if you want to write kung fu movie fights go for it, but if you want to write real fights here are some things to keep in mind and maybe try to work into your books.
Fights simply never go the way you planned. You are not spending time planning out moves, most the time your thinking OH CRAP!! and just doing something, thats the differnce between someone that is trained and someone that is not. Its not a magical battle plan its that when your brain is stuck your body will do what youve trained it to do.
The person that hits first most the time also hits last. Sorry but your not coming back from a solid head butt to the nose or getting bashed across the head with a bat. Most fights end in a few seconds, its just how it goes.
Fights almost always end up in grappling, the less experiance people have the quicker they will end up tied up with each other. Also if you know what your doing and the other guy doesnt, grappling is great, you can accidently get knocked out, you arent going to accidently get placed in an arm bar.
People rarely end up in an impromt kick boxing match or karate fight, it just doesnt happen a lot in the real world.
There is no cheating in a street fight, it doesnt matter who does what only who wins. Anyone that is worried about fighting fair shouldnt be fighting at all. Always hit first, always!
Think of MMA, its not as flashy as karate but the stuff works and thats why you see it in the UFC.
You dont see the worlds best fighters doing half the stuff you read about in your average book or see on tv, its a few strikes or grappling. The reason is, in a real fight, fancy stuff aint gona fly most the time. It might seem fun in the dojo but all those wrist locks aren't going to get you half the results of a good double underhook or double leg. Or even a solid head butt or punch to the chin.
Also, when someone is fighting back with a decent amount of skill, half that stuff isnt going to work like you think it will, its just not going to go down like it does in the dojo when the other person is making every effort to not let you do it. This is just something I have learned over the years and through many very real fights.
Keep it simple, the move with the least room for error is your best bet. Think of Chael Sonnens last fight with Anderson Silva, Sonnen was doing great, had him up on the cage, tried a spinning elbow, tripped and got TKO'd. Most people dont have half the skill Sonnen does, and he still flubbed up a spinning elbow and that was that. One mistake is all it takes and your done, thats just the truth of it, no matter how good you are, you slip up your gona get hurt. No one can be perfect all the time, everyone will mess up, so keep it simple!
Defense is generaly not fancy, blocks more often than not mean taking the hit on your arm as your arm is protecting your head or face, you still get hit. Movement is a big part of defense, dont be where the other guys fist is. If you plan on fancy pants blocks and moves you are going to have a ruff time of things. Again, this is just what I've learned over the years, take it for whats its worth. Also the best defense is to never let the other guy have a chance.
Now I'm not saying don't have fancy martial arts moves, but be honest about your characters ability, size, training, and the ability of the attackers. Talk to people you know that have been in real fights, not fake, not practice, not sparing in the dojo, but real honest to god someone trying to smash your teeth in fights. Its not the same, its not even close.
If you plan want to have realistic scenes you need to keep a lot of this in mind, I read a lot of scenes in books and think "ya thats cool, wouldnt work out that way but hey its just fiction".
I hope these little tid bits help. If people disagree well cool what ever, all of this info I earned the hard way lol, its my take on modern fist fights in a real world setting.
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Well I think you really have to decide how real you want your scenes to be. From what I have read you seem to want realistic and I can give some insight and tips into that, at least as far as fist fighting goes.
Some back ground, I have 21 years of martial arts experiance, starting with karate then into wrestling and then into jiu jitsu. I also have about 7 years experiance working as a doorman in various bars and because of that I have been in more fights than I care to talk about.
Now if you want to write kung fu movie fights go for it, but if you want to write real fights here are some things to keep in mind and maybe try to work into your books.
Fights simply never go the way you planned. You are not spending time planning out moves, most the time your thinking OH CRAP!! and just doing something, thats the differnce between someone that is trained and someone that is not. Its not a magical battle plan its that when your brain is stuck your body will do what youve trained it to do.
The person that hits first most the time also hits last. Sorry but your not coming back from a solid head butt to the nose or getting bashed across the head with a bat. Most fights end in a few seconds, its just how it goes.
Fights almost always end up in grappling, the less experiance people have the quicker they will end up tied up with each other. Also if you know what your doing and the other guy doesnt, grappling is great, you can accidently get knocked out, you arent going to accidently get placed in an arm bar.
People rarely end up in an impromt kick boxing match or karate fight, it just doesnt happen a lot in the real world.
There is no cheating in a street fight, it doesnt matter who does what only who wins. Anyone that is worried about fighting fair shouldnt be fighting at all. Always hit first, always!
Think of MMA, its not as flashy as karate but the stuff works and thats why you see it in the UFC.
You dont see the worlds best fighters doing half the stuff you read about in your average book or see on tv, its a few strikes or grappling. The reason is, in a real fight, fancy stuff aint gona fly most the time. It might seem fun in the dojo but all those wrist locks aren't going to get you half the results of a good double underhook or double leg. Or even a solid head butt or punch to the chin.
Also, when someone is fighting back with a decent amount of skill, half that stuff isnt going to work like you think it will, its just not going to go down like it does in the dojo when the other person is making every effort to not let you do it. This is just something I have learned over the years and through many very real fights.
Keep it simple, the move with the least room for error is your best bet. Think of Chael Sonnens last fight with Anderson Silva, Sonnen was doing great, had him up on the cage, tried a spinning elbow, tripped and got TKO'd. Most people dont have half the skill Sonnen does, and he still flubbed up a spinning elbow and that was that. One mistake is all it takes and your done, thats just the truth of it, no matter how good you are, you slip up your gona get hurt. No one can be perfect all the time, everyone will mess up, so keep it simple!
Defense is generaly not fancy, blocks more often than not mean taking the hit on your arm as your arm is protecting your head or face, you still get hit. Movement is a big part of defense, dont be where the other guys fist is. If you plan on fancy pants blocks and moves you are going to have a ruff time of things. Again, this is just what I've learned over the years, take it for whats its worth. Also the best defense is to never let the other guy have a chance.
Now I'm not saying don't have fancy martial arts moves, but be honest about your characters ability, size, training, and the ability of the attackers. Talk to people you know that have been in real fights, not fake, not practice, not sparing in the dojo, but real honest to god someone trying to smash your teeth in fights. Its not the same, its not even close.
If you plan want to have realistic scenes you need to keep a lot of this in mind, I read a lot of scenes in books and think "ya thats cool, wouldnt work out that way but hey its just fiction".
I hope these little tid bits help. If people disagree well cool what ever, all of this info I earned the hard way lol, its my take on modern fist fights in a real world setting.
This guy hits it right on the head. I'm not an expert in martial arts, nor in writing fight scenes, but I've been in more than my fair share of scraps.
Typically exchanges are over incredibly fast....and for me I always ended up having to do a "replay" in my head after the fact, because I really didn't consciously do a thing.
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Yeah, can't argue with that advice there in the slightest. When it comes to the mechanics of fighting, your most important decision is where on the sliding scale of realistic to cinematic you want your fight scenes, and stay consistent.