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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Richard_Chilton on May 07, 2012, 07:01:19 PM

Title: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 07, 2012, 07:01:19 PM
DFRPG, since it is based around the DV, does not handle generic Urban Fantasy all that well.  True, the mechanics of DFRPG aren't covered by the OGL, but since they do encourage you to make custom rules, I thought maybe it was time we had a thread looking at using DFRPG outside of the DV.

Personally, one thing I see as a flaw in the current system is the costs of things.  Everything costs 0, 1, 2, 3, etc refresh.  Looking at some of the powers, it's hard to saw "this power is as good as that power" when they cost the same.

My proposal is to multiple by ten and go from there while assuming that all current powers round to their current value.

For example, instead starting with 7 refresh a PC would start with 70.  Stunts would cost 10 refresh each, and as for powers... something like Cassandra’s Tears would probably cost 2 or 3 refresh.

The way this system comes to life is with powers like Claws.  Currently we only have non-concealable Claws (because that's what is found in the DV), but in an expanded system we could have:
Claws (non-concealable): 8 refresh
Claws (concealable): 12 refresh.

Or add an optional trapping to Claws:
Concealable [-4]
Your Claws can be easily concealed.  Maybe they can retract like a cat's or maybe you and the GM will work out another explanation.  Whatever the case, you can appear unarmed when you choose to.


Of course, at some point we'll have to look at sex as it applies to Urban Fantasy.  Or we could leave it at:
Sex can be a primal force.  If the table is comfortable with using it, it can be used to declare aspects that can be tagged in ritualistic spell casting.
Example Aspects: "Puppy Pile Power", "First Time Jitters", "It Was Magical", "It Was Magical For Me Two", , "It Was Magical For Me Three".
Such declarations can be made using Discipline (focusing while being very distracted), Conviction (because you are doing it for power, not pleasure), or Endurance (stamina).  If the group allows, a Performance based Stunt "Bedroom Olympian" could allow Performance based declarations.

Which is a PG write up of the Anita Blake / Paranormal Romance flavour of Urban Fantasy.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Richard
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: DFJunkie on May 07, 2012, 07:04:24 PM
Retractable claws really bother you huh?
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: ways and means on May 07, 2012, 07:17:57 PM
You do realize sex is powerful in DF too or did you not read the first book and wcv should almost certainly have a few sex related aspex and stunts.
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 07, 2012, 07:24:44 PM
Retractable claws really bother you huh?

Not really, but there was a huge debate on another thread about them.  I didn't bother joining in on that aspect of the debate but I did skim it.

You do realize sex is powerful in DF too or did you not read the first book.

Yes, I did.  But a bunch of minor characters laying aspects and taking consequence to make potions is one thing, a custom made bed big enough for three vampires, four were beasts, a couple of characters pulled into the pile at the last minute, and a "human" necromancer (who is usually the only female in the pile and "pulling the train") is another.  Which probably why the DFRPG is silent on the issue.

I've read Anita Blake novels that had multiple chapters devoted to one sex scene - which you couldn't skip over because the plot was being advanced via sex and visions obtained during sex.  Usually there are vast amounts of power being raised during that sex - to battle a god or demi-god or the monster of the week - or just to recharge everyone for the next fight.

Beyond the specifics, are there any views on the general x10 suggestion?

Richard
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Ophidimancer on May 07, 2012, 07:48:26 PM
My proposal is to multiple by ten and go from there while assuming that all current powers round to their current value.

Since you're multiplying the Refresh cost for everything equally all you're doing is making the power differentials more granular, which is fine if you want to do that.  I personally don't see the point, really.  What this does affect a lot more is leftover fate points.  An adjusted Refresh of 1 currently becomes 10 in your system.  That's a hell of a lot of fate points.  Be prepared for a lot of derailment as your players take over the game completely with declarations and such.  It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is different.

The way this system comes to life is with powers like Claws.  Currently we only have non-concealable Claws (because that's what is found in the DV), but in an expanded system we could have:
Claws (non-concealable): 8 refresh
Claws (concealable): 12 refresh.

Or add an optional trapping to Claws:
Concealable [-4]
Your Claws can be easily concealed.  Maybe they can retract like a cat's or maybe you and the GM will work out another explanation.  Whatever the case, you can appear unarmed when you choose to.

Do you realize that you can do this right now with the Human Guise and Human Form powers?
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 07, 2012, 07:59:22 PM
Since you're multiplying the Refresh cost for everything equally all you're doing is making the power differentials more granular, which is fine if you want to do that.  I personally don't see the point, really.  What this does affect a lot more is leftover fate points.  An adjusted Refresh of 1 currently becomes 10 in your system.

You're right - to keep things even it would have to be 1 refresh for every 10 refresh...

Or instead of multiplying by ten we use tenths.  Set costs to 0.8, 1.2, etc.

Do you realize that you can do this right now with the Human Guise and Human Form powers?

Yes, but does Human Guise/Form do everything that retractable Claws would? Usually those powers are link to multiple things.  For example, a Ghoul looks human or it looks like a Ghoul.  If retractable Claws existed and they were not covered by Human Guise/Form then a PC could look like a human with Claws...

Then again, maybe I should have chosen a different example of a slight variation in a power - but Claws /  Retractable Claws seemed to be a good place to start.

Richard
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Ophidimancer on May 07, 2012, 08:14:49 PM
You're right - to keep things even it would have to be 1 refresh for every 10 refresh...

Or instead of multiplying by ten we use tenths.  Set costs to 0.8, 1.2, etc.

Sounds more complicated than I like my FATE games to run.

Yes, but does Human Guise/Form do everything that retractable Claws would?

Yes.  When you're not using them, you look completely like a normal human.
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 07, 2012, 08:24:56 PM
Sounds more complicated than I like my FATE games to run.

It's just an idea.

Yes.  When you're not using them, you look completely like a normal human.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but (based on Ghouls and RCV) when you are using Claws (or any power covered by Human Form/Guise) you don't human.  You look like the monster you are.

Who would use retractable Claws?
Shrug.
Troll changelings who don't want people to see their Claws?

Again, maybe that was the wrong thing to pick as an example a variable power.

Richard
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: DFJunkie on May 07, 2012, 08:31:42 PM
My bad, I thought you were one of the folks involved in the overwrought battle over retractable claws.

From what I know about Anita Blake it would be better served by a WoD style system.  That world's vampires are far more differentiated, with complicated and meaningful distinctions drawn between bloodlines, ages, etc.  You could do it with Fate, but it seems like the powers themselves aren't granular enough, not just the costs of the powers.  Even with a fairly vanilla DF style game having only three levels of superhuman strength is occasionally a bit limiting. 
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: devonapple on May 07, 2012, 08:40:52 PM
There are a couple of options out there:
Strands of Fate could have been better edited, but it is jockeying to be the GURPS of FATE. The way that system handles Powers is very granular in comparison to DFRPG. I found the two systems almost impossible to reconcile, as they have such different economies: many of the Powers require spending a FATE Point (though the characters HAVE more FP to spend since Powers come out of a different character point budget).

The Kerberos Club is a Victorian/Steampunk FATE game which, I am told, is also a decent run at a generic FATE setting., but I haven't reviewed it yet.
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Ophidimancer on May 07, 2012, 08:46:47 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but (based on Ghouls and RCV) when you are using Claws (or any power covered by Human Form/Guise) you don't human.  You look like the monster you are.

When you're using your claws, they are visible and monstrous, but it doesn't change your whole appearance, just your hands/feet.  If you want to look completely human even while using your claws then what you want aren't retractable claws, what you want are invisible claws.

And yes, maybe that wasn't the best example of what you wanted.  I still don't personally want the FATE system to get any more granular, but you're cool to do whatever you want to do.

As for Anita Blake, I've also read all the novels and I totally think you could do it with the DFRPG system.  You'd probably want to take out the Laws of Magic, of course, but a lot of other things port over just fine.
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Mr. Death on May 07, 2012, 08:47:30 PM
The main problem I see with multiplying refresh by 10 is, what the heck does that do to fate points? Giving someone dozens of fate points right off the bat seems ill advised.
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 07, 2012, 08:50:28 PM
My bad, I thought you were one of the folks involved in the overwrought battle over retractable claws.

Understandable.  That was one of the few debates that I didn't get involved with.

And those debate are one of the reason why I'm starting a thread to deal with non-DV games.  There are a number (say 4 - 6) posters who don't seem thing that the DV belongs in the DFRPG. 

As for Anita, she might be able to be done in the DFRPG - but her skills after book 5 would be hitting Epic / Legendary type levels. Her books seem to contain 2 - 5 major milestones, giving her access to ridiculous power levels (Monty Hall must be her GM).

Which is one of the reasons I enjoyed the early Dresden books so much - the lack of a power creep.  Harry's in the top 100 wizards in book 1, 2, 3, and 4.  After that he starts growing a bit, but each new power (hellfire/Soulfire) came with negatives (bad temper/risk of using up his soul).  His rank in the wizard world kept going up, but mostly from the war killing off some of the more powerful folks.

But there are countless Urban Fantasy books out there.  We could look at Mercedes Lackey's SERRAted Edge / Bedlam's Bard elves (they have their own Nevernever world) and other powers and themes that do not fit in the DV. (EG: Angels or Fae with freewill.)

Richard
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: devonapple on May 07, 2012, 08:51:09 PM
I presume that what we're doing is:
1. converting Refresh into Build Points at a rate of 1:10
2. converting Power costs into Build Points and adjusting some of the costs
3. adding additional Power modifiers
4. spending Build Points on all these things
5. take the leftover Build Points and convert them back at a rate of 10:1, rounding up
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 07, 2012, 08:59:47 PM
When you're using your claws, they are visible and monstrous, but it doesn't change your whole appearance, just your hands/feet.

I was under the belief that it was an all/nothing.  You look like a little old lady pushing a shopping cart or you look like a Ghoul.  You look like a sexy madam or you look like a RCV in its true form.  One or the other, not bits of both.

If you want to look completely human even while using your claws then what you want aren't retractable claws, what you want are invisible claws.

That would also work - but that should cost more.

And I was thinking more Wolverine looking than Troll looking.  Both half claws, one can generally pass for human at a distance.

I presume that what we're doing is:
1. converting Refresh into Build Points at a rate of 1:10
2. converting Power costs into Build Points and adjusting some of the costs
3. adding additional Power modifiers
4. spending Build Points on all these things
5. take the leftover Build Points and convert them back at a rate of 10:1, rounding up

Yes - that's basically it.  Mostly to allow for things that don't seem worth an extra point of refresh but should cost something.  Either multiplying by 10 or using decimals - something like that.

Richard
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 08, 2012, 03:35:20 AM
It's not a terrible idea, but I don't see the point.

Setting aside the silliness of charging for retractable-ness, this will do nothing that I can see to make DFRPG more applicable to other Urban Fantasy settings.

In fact, I still can't think of anything that DFRPG doesn't do that other Urban Fantasy settings demand. You still haven't explained what about the system makes it not usable with other settings.

PS: Are you serious about the lack of power creep? By what I've seen, Harry goes from having 10 Refresh to having over 20 over the course of the series.
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: ways and means on May 08, 2012, 03:39:23 AM
It's not a terrible idea, but I don't see the point.

Setting aside the silliness of charging for retractable-ness, this will do nothing that I can see to make DFRPG more applicable to other Urban Fantasy settings.

In fact, I still can't think of anything that DFRPG doesn't do that other Urban Fantasy settings demand. You still haven't explained what about the system makes it not usable with other settings.

PS: Are you serious about the lack of power creep? By what I've seen, Harry goes from having 10 Refresh to having over 20 over the course of the series.

Well as a kid Dresden clearly had more than 10 refresh considering
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 08, 2012, 03:54:09 AM
Luck.

Or something sinister...

Seriously, Harry later speculates that that was a set-up.
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Locnil on May 08, 2012, 04:02:17 AM

PS: Are you serious about the lack of power creep? By what I've seen, Harry goes from having 10 Refresh to having over 20 over the course of the series.

Over the course of 13 books. By most standards, that's pretty slow.

And if you're counting the power boost in Changes, it was because of a pact, bringing with it significant downsides.
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 08, 2012, 04:09:23 AM
In fact, I still can't think of anything that DFRPG doesn't do that other Urban Fantasy settings demand. You still haven't explained what about the system makes it not usable with other settings.

PS: Are you serious about the lack of power creep? By what I've seen, Harry goes from having 10 Refresh to having over 20 over the course of the series.

I answered that in another thread.

As for power creep.  Over roughly 10 - 12 years of play, a PC gained 20 major milestones.  He has been in 13 major campaigns and gone on countless one shot adventures.  That's a slow advancement - considering he was one of the top 100 wizards in the world when he started.

Anita Blake went from:
I can raise the dead (as long as they haven't been dead for more than 50 or so years) and I have a few powers that come from an icky vampire marking me.
to
As above, but I'm now linked to a werewolf and have funky werewolf powers
to
Just killed something that was immortal, can raise the dead even if they've been in the ground for more than 100 years.
to
As above, and now can control vampires like they were zombies.  Oh, and really old zombies now.

After the first couple of volumes, each book brought her to a new plateau of power.   I think in the space of three books, Anita goes from barely surviving meeting a godlike being to fighting off a godlike to being able to kill a godlike being.  From hiding in fear of prehistoric powers (i.e. ones that have been growing more powerful since the saber tooth walked the Earth) to destroying them.

If Harry followed that level of power creep then by now he would have broken the White Council (or made it his slave) and told Mab "You my bitch" - then maybe smacked around Mother Summer and Winter just to prove he could.  Or to invite them to a foursome with Mab.  Invite? Nah, he would have grabbed them by the hair and dragged them to his bed.

Seriously, for a while I was calling Harry the anti-Anita because he doesn't gain a major new power every book or have sex with everything that moves (and a few things that don't).

Richard
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 08, 2012, 04:16:10 AM
I answered that in another thread.

Where?

Not being deliberately obtuse; I've been looking for something like that, and I haven't found it.

Can't comment on Anita Blake, but Harry becomes one of the world's movers and shakers as the series goes on. A series where a guy goes from "can hardly pay rent" to "wipes out a world power" does not seem low in power creep to me. Maybe Anita Blake is more power-creepy, but...Harry seems to get a major milestone more than once every second session.
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 08, 2012, 04:26:04 AM
Where?

Here:
I am so sorry that you've missed the posts I've made where I've said that homebrew is encouraged or the ones where I've said that since I'm not at your table I don't know what you've done to the world - just as you don't know what I've done to mind.  You see, I have said in various posts that since we don't know each others changes the only common ground we have to discuss things is the DV.

And perhaps you've missed my attempt to start a thread dealing with how the DFRPG can be adapted to other Urban Fantasy worlds - because they would have to be adapted to some extent to play outside the DV.  Jim's setting elements would have to be abandoned and new ones added - which require changes to the rules.

And Blake seems to gains 3 - 5 refresh per novel.  Where as Harry (at the end of Small Favors):
By this point, Harry’s gained at least five to six points of refresh (making him a base 16 character!) and a solid handful of about ten more skill points, making him as scary an opponent as many of the creatures you see in these pages.

So I'm not sure where you're getting the 20 refresh number.

Richard
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Tsunami on May 08, 2012, 12:28:58 PM
Well as a kid Dresden clearly had more than 10 refresh considering
(click to show/hide)
Harry most likely has a hidden aspect
(click to show/hide)
or something along those lines. His player simply spent a fate point and declared that he satisfied the catch. No major refresh boost needed.
The second opponent was defeated by using lots and lots of sponsor debt to Lea, and probably some form of temporary sponsored magic. Again, this could be done by a very low refresh character.
Not that he necessarily was very low... he probably was at about 8, seeing that this is the minimum for full wizards, and winning this fight counted as his trial to be judged a full wizard.

General commentary:
Sex:
Anita's, or anybody's, extensive sex rituals are easily modeled by the ritual rules in the DFRPG... (lots and lots of mini scene declarations describing the various practices probably, plus consequences and...) if it's truly necessary to include those, which i think it is not, but that's besides the point.

Power progression:
I have not read the Anita Blake novels, but a friend of mine who really enjoyed them in the beginning, dropped them due to precisely the two aspects that were mentioned here. Too much sex, and too much power.
Harry has gotten stronger and stronger over the course of the books, but luckily he has not gotten too strong.
Also, Harry's increased power is often due to, how did Jim put it... "becoming less stupid" though his personal power has increased as well.

Personally I like the progression speed that the Fate system offers.
If your game requires a quicker progression, simply hand out more major milestones, though i can't think why it would be necessary.

So, after writing this i realized it's nothing particularly useful, or even new information... but i'm gonna post it anyways, because i don't want to have been typing it for nothing *g*
Title: Re: Urban Fantasy FATE 2.5
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 08, 2012, 07:53:19 PM
20 Refresh is from the thread where Deadmanwalking stats everyone up. OW says he's got 16ish Refresh by Small Favour, too.

Anyway. You said:

Quote
I am so sorry that you've missed the posts I've made where I've said that homebrew is encouraged or the ones where I've said that since I'm not at your table I don't know what you've done to the world - just as you don't know what I've done to mind.  You see, I have said in various posts that since we don't know each others changes the only common ground we have to discuss things is the DV.

And perhaps you've missed my attempt to start a thread dealing with how the DFRPG can be adapted to other Urban Fantasy worlds - because they would have to be adapted to some extent to play outside the DV.  Jim's setting elements would have to be abandoned and new ones added - which require changes to the rules.

But that doesn't actually answer my question.

What elements of the system would need to be changed?