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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Nickeris86 on April 12, 2012, 07:40:10 AM
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So I am a Christian and have resiliently gone through a spiritual reawakening which has done wonders for me personal level. I have been trying to figure out where God wants me and what he wants me to do with my life rather than what I want to do. I believe that God me my gift for writing and creating a story but I am not sure if what I have been writing is working towards Gods goals for me.
What I am trying to ask is does anyone know a good way to incorporate Christian themes and morals into a dark fantasy novel. The only example I have of a fantasy novel with strong Christian influences and messages is The Chronicles of Narnia. Are there others out their and I just don't know about them?
Your help is much appreciated.
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Supposedly, The Lord of the Rings has strong Christian overtones, but I don't see it, myself (I didn't even get the Narnia connection until someone pointed it out to me, but in all fairness I was about seven at the time.) Also, The Golden Compass was apparently written as a deliberate anti-Narnia, but as I haven't read it, I can't comment.
Basically, any protagonist who is sacrificed for the greater good (they may or may not be brought back to life through magic) can be percieved as a Christ figure, or at least a Dying God archetype. If you want to incorporate a Christian theme into your writing, I would suggest picking a New Testament story that has particular resonance for you, and creating a Dark Fantasy metaphor around it. Finding the proper balance will be the real trick--too overt and it will turn off less religious readers, and too vague and no-one will get it.
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I have to second the cautionary advice above with a very simple sentiment. Focus on the values you want to shine through rather than drawing parallels between your writing and the bible stories. Most of the time a writer tries to get allegorical with scripture they end up beating the audience over the head with it. This is why I like Jim's portrayal of Michael so much. He is a paladin played straight, but he doesn't become a figure preaching from a pulpit. Instead Michael is christian by example, one which has more to do with what he stands for than what church he goes to every Sunday. If you want to portray christian idealogies positively, please don't make it thinly veiled evangelism or a grown-up version of veggie tales.
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Let me echo the others in saying whatever you do, don't get too heavy handed. I hate that in a story even when I agree with the sentiments being displayed. Since I am human it bothers me even worse if I disagree. It has become popular in much urban fantasy for the characters to rant against Christianity. Even if I was not Christian (which I am) I would find it tiresome and heavy handed. By the same token stories where the main characters go on long lectures about their Christian values and about what is wrong with the values of non-Christians quickly become tiresome.
I agree with what Hank said. If you want to portray Christian values then have your characters live them rather than having them laboriously talk about them. An example is far more valuable than a lecture.
Some of my friends like the author Ted Dekker who supposedly incorporates Christian themes into his stories some of which have fantasy elements as well. I personally was never able to get into his stuff but he is quite popular in some circles and may be an example of what you are looking for.
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Yeah I am a strong atheist but I have always totally hated it when books start to sermonize on the values and wisdom of atheism. Characters can have the values. The story is there to entertain not convert.
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Yeah I am a strong atheist but I have always totally hated it when books start to sermonize on the values and wisdom of atheism. Characters can have the values. The story is there to entertain not convert.
Well said.
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Supposedly, The Lord of the Rings has strong Christian overtones, but I don't see it, myself (I didn't even get the Narnia connection until someone pointed it out to me, but in all fairness I was about seven at the time.) Also, The Golden Compass was apparently written as a deliberate anti-Narnia, but as I haven't read it, I can't comment.
Basically, any protagonist who is sacrificed for the greater good (they may or may not be brought back to life through magic) can be percieved as a Christ figure, or at least a Dying God archetype. If you want to incorporate a Christian theme into your writing, I would suggest picking a New Testament story that has particular resonance for you, and creating a Dark Fantasy metaphor around it. Finding the proper balance will be the real trick--too overt and it will turn off less religious readers, and too vague and no-one will get it.
Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy Northern Lights/Golden Compass (depending on which part of the world you inhabit),
Amber Spyglass and Subtle Knife goes to some weird and wonderful places, I am glad I read the trilogy but not something you want to read while feeling depressed or listening to Leonard Cohen.
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Much of what what I think (Don't get preachy/soapboxie and don't just retell bible stories) has been voiced already, but on this matter I do have some thoughts:
1. Whatever reason you are writing about, make it engaging. Give us compelling characters, stunning imagery and scenes that resonate. From there, adding a message is much easier.
2. Incorporate the Themes/morals into the action seamlessly.
The last thing I want to see in a book that has a deliberate message is a scene that sounds like this: "Wheel of Morality, turn, turn, turn, tell us the lesson that we should learn."
Make the theme a part of a character arc or maybe make the moral the solution to a character's book-long problem. Done too heavy-handedly this can fail (see: the wheel of morality), but if done subtly enough it works wonders and it makes the moral invisible food for thought.
3. Because you are writing "Dark Fantasy", figure out where the genre and the message meet. What does "Dark" mean to you and how can it include your message? How dark do you want to go?
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I think it's pretty much been covered already, but basically, don't sermonize or even try to create remotely biblical parallels, just tell a story where the values and ideals you wish to promote shine through, and where the dilemmas people trying to live up to those values bite in a way the Average Reader can relate to. That'll let you tell a good story rather than preach a sermon, and maybe demonstrate that there's some common ground between your belief system and the belief system of others who share those common ideals if not common theology. Compassion, courage, integrity, etc. Make characters who people can respect and admire, that people can see as living, breathing examples of the type of behavior normal people can achieve if they really set their hearts on it. A character who is a good example does far more to convey a theological, ethical, or moral idea than any story or lecture.
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So I am a Christian and have resiliently gone through a spiritual reawakening which has done wonders for me personal level. I have been trying to figure out where God wants me and what he wants me to do with my life rather than what I want to do. I believe that God me my gift for writing and creating a story but I am not sure if what I have been writing is working towards Gods goals for me.
What I am trying to ask is does anyone know a good way to incorporate Christian themes and morals into a dark fantasy novel. The only example I have of a fantasy novel with strong Christian influences and messages is The Chronicles of Narnia. Are there others out their and I just don't know about them?
Your help is much appreciated.
I know its not a book series. But did you watch the TV show, Kings? It was based on teh david versus goliath story. And focused a lot on the King that had power before David. Might give you some ideas.
The Deposed King
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Ultimately, I think it's what you, personally want to convey--the things that are in your heart. The only serious contemplation you need to do is a) how do you want to portray Christianity and b) how might it impact audience perceptions. If you don't care at all about b, then you can include as much about Christianity as you want. If you do care more about b, then you might want to go more along a moralistic/values line in order to retain a wider audience. There is a lot of fiction that explores religion (I'm thinking now of like Philip Roth, Gabriel García Márquez, Salman Rushdie) but how heavy/how critical/how analytical, etc. always depends on the author.
One big thing to think about, alongside religious issues, is the fact that many political & social issues go hand in hand, which can further gain and/or alienate different audiences.
And then there's the whole spirituality vs. religion, which for me, personally, are two separate things, yet often quite intertwined. However, focusing more on a spiritual level might also broaden the audience.
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I like the feed back that you have all given me thanks. It has confirmed what i was thinking of doing in the first place.
Since this story takes place in a world of my own creation Christianity itself will not make an appearance however I do plan on using a lot of Christian symbolism, such as the Holy Trinity and the idea of know the father through the son, except in my world its Daughters not Son.
I hadn't intended on being heavy handed with it but i love symbolism and how complex and deep it can be while at the same time looking like your saying something else.
I am also going into the contrast between spirituality vs religion but it will more focus on how people can easily twist something into a horrid nightmare of hate and intolerance very easily.
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Sounds like a winner. Its all in the execution now!!!
go get'em tiger.
The Deposed king
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Apparently there are several scientific studies that indicate, like universal facial recognition of emotions in comic books is cross-cultural and genetically wired, a universal genetic need seems to exist for certain story lines. We simply crave these stories told over and over again in countless re-envisioning. There is a reason that the bible, Gilgamesh,and Baelwolf, Homer story lines continue to be re-invented.
I would suggest that there isn't a published book that doesn't have jewish or christian roots that one could trace back to those works and some of those stolen from earlier myths (flood and creation stories). Star Wars, Star Trek, Heinlein, Gone with the Wind, Harry Potter, Dresden books, etc. all uphold biblical storyline concepts such as good over evil, David vs Goliath, David and Bathseba's adultery, even the sensual x-rated sex poetry in the Book called Songs of Soloman. (And how many of your reached for a bible to check out Soloman?) Let's face it--those ancient stories survived as long as they did, because they speak to us deep inside--are even genetically wired to do so.
That being said, the fact that you defined your work as 'christian' might be troubling. Reuse of biblical story lines is par for the course, but your acknowledgment of your faith rewakening might indicate an unconscious leaning that is on the 'heavy' side. Still, this is your work! The Muse of Faith can be a wonderful guide and ignoring her could block a faith journey that you need to take for yourself. Writing for publication is highly unlikely anyway. Have the courage to write where you are led. If a higher power is working through your fingertips, s/he is also working through your mind and perhaps healing or opening new doors to your faith journey. Also, it never hurts to think a divine hand is guiding your hand--cause you might complete the work! "God" can be a powerful reason to not procrastinate getting those words on a page! *cue lightning* *smiling*
Happy travels as you explore with your Muse of Faith.
Edited because I never answered your question... I never enjoyed the Narnia series, but I loved and adored his adult space trilogy of Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength. I haven't revisited them in years, but you might find them helpful. I read them as a teenager and the symbolism went right over the top of my head--which is where a 'christian' philosophy works best in my humble opinion.
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Since this story takes place in a world of my own creation Christianity itself will not make an appearance
Current Western-accessible culture is so permeated with themes and morals that also run through Christianity that a story sharing those themes and morals without implicit Christianity would be a difficult thing indeed to write.
This is why it is easy to be heavy-handed in the other direction.
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Oh! Another thing:
Ask yourself who's your audience. There are some Christian fiction out there that are definitely meant to be read by Christians themselves, hence it's all preachy.
But, if you're going for...well, everyone... pretty much what they just said.
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Oh! Another thing:
Ask yourself who's your audience. There are some Christian fiction out there that are definitely meant to be read by Christians themselves, hence it's all preachy.
But, if you're going for...well, everyone... pretty much what they just said.
That's a really good point. Never forget your target audience/genre.
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Another series nobody has yet mentioned starts with a book called Her Majesty's Wizard by Christopher Stasheff. Its part of a series called wizard in rhyme if you can find it anywhere.
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Is that from his series that started with A Warlock In Spite of Himself?
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The series in question started with Her Majesty's Wizard. HMW is an alt-history based on a premise of magic working and an overt good/evil duality that is the basis for determining the consequences of free will actions. There is even a secret 'nuclear' option where free will is removed if there isn't sufficient evidence for good existing for its own sake in the world.
A Wizard in Spite of Himself is the start of a different series, a /future/ history with a far less black/white good/evil background duality. That series includes explicit moral issue examination, sometimes between 'wizard' and robot horse, sometimes between other talking heads, and usually at least one social-issue takeaway from each book. It sounds a little patronizing as I describe it but it is quite decently done.
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Apparently there are several scientific studies that indicate, like universal facial recognition of emotions in comic books is cross-cultural and genetically wired, a universal genetic need seems to exist for certain story lines. We simply crave these stories told over and over again in countless re-envisioning. There is a reason that the bible, Gilgamesh,and Baelwolf, Homer story lines continue to be re-invented.
One might posit, though, that there is also a reason why monotheism, sfaik, has only been invented once, and polytheism independently all over the place, in terms of which shapes of stories human brains resonate with.
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Read the Hyperion Cantos from Dan Simmons.
A sci-fi tale loosely based (at least in framework) on the Canterbury Tales. In the 3rd and 4th books (a bastardization of) Christianity becomes the focus. Becomes a story of faith vs organized religion. Don't know if it matches what you are looking for but a brilliant read either way.
I cannot recommend it highly enough.
Good luck.
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I have to second the cautionary advice above with a very simple sentiment. Focus on the values you want to shine through rather than drawing parallels between your writing and the bible stories. Most of the time a writer tries to get allegorical with scripture they end up beating the audience over the head with it. This is why I like Jim's portrayal of Michael so much. He is a paladin played straight, but he doesn't become a figure preaching from a pulpit. Instead Michael is christian by example, one which has more to do with what he stands for than what church he goes to every Sunday. If you want to portray christian idealogies positively, please don't make it thinly veiled evangelism or a grown-up version of veggie tales.
Yeah. It's the thinly veiled evangelism that annoys me! And I am a Christian too!
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Joining in a bit late which means some of this may have been said already so please pardon me if that is true, but I just wanted to say that there are various types of preaching. Some involve moral preaching, Star Trek The Next Generation did some of that as has many books I've read. I think even Butcher gets into that now and then. Some types are spiritual preaching--as in eastern mysticism and New age stuff, etc.--I've read books with that type. Then there is what I might call opposite preaching from Christian. There are definitely some UF writers that do that. Then of course there is Christian preaching. Like the other types some of that is overt and some is subtle.
As has been stated it depends on your audience, some would love the more overt type. Frank Perritti (I probably blew his last name but I think it's close) is one who does it more overtly at least in his first two books. JRR Tolken did it very subtly. Supposedly he said he didn't put in any but I think he should have said on purpose. There are most definitely christian types in LotR. C.S. Lewis did it more on purpose I think in the Narnia Chronicles and in his SF trilogy.
Recently I saw a Christian series for YA or even MG dealing with dragons. So there are many Christian fantasies that are aimed at Christians but then again there are some who have written mainstream who have the characters reacting to moral issues differently than many non-christian writers do but in most of the plot there's no difference.
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To those who mentioned Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia, CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien where friends.
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To those who mentioned Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia, CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien where friends.
Both part of The Inklings, a club of sorts, while authors discussed their work.
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To those who mentioned Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia, CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien where friends.
Can't say about anyone else but I knew that. And I may have the two mixed up. One said something along the lines that he didn't write his book as a Christian metaphor or that he didn't put in any Christian symbols but in either case it's still in each series anyway. Tolken or Lewis couldn't help it. Which was I think my original point.
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There isn't any overt Christianity in the Perelandra stories, but C.S. Lewis' basic morality comes through, and the planetary spirits seem angelic in nature.
Jim Butcher is quoting C.S. Lewis through the voice of the Archangel Uriel when he says to Harry, "You are a soul; you have a body."
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There isn't any overt Christianity in the Perelandra stories, but C.S. Lewis' basic morality comes through, and the planetary spirits seem angelic in nature.
Jim Butcher is quoting C.S. Lewis through the voice of the Archangel Uriel when he says to Harry, "You are a soul; you have a body."
But I think there is, well maybe not very overt--you kinda have to read between the lines but I still believe it's there.
As you said the planetary spirits as angels, the whole Adam and Eve on another planet thing, the ending that sounds basically like it was taken from the Second Coming of Christ prophecies. But as I said it's not super overt.
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There isn't any overt Christianity in the Perelandra stories, but C.S. Lewis' basic morality comes through, and the planetary spirits seem angelic in nature.
Jim Butcher is quoting C.S. Lewis through the voice of the Archangel Uriel when he says to Harry, "You are a soul; you have a body."
I'd be hesitant on ascribing anything in regards to morality to Jim's quote there. Sounds to me more like the character's using it to explain that in the Dresdenverse, the soul is what makes up your identity, self, etc, while the body is just the earthly walking around suit it drives until going elsewhere.
Which naturally leads us to speculation on exactly how things work with the beings that don't have souls, if sentience isn't the hallmarks of soul ownership in the Dresdenverse, what is? Kind of reminds me of the buffyverse, where when a vamp takes someone, the soul goes away, leaving a demon-run shell that still has that person's memories, but is in no way actually that same person. I'm guessing the Red Court works that way.
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So I am a Christian and have resiliently gone through a spiritual reawakening which has done wonders for me personal level. I have been trying to figure out where God wants me and what he wants me to do with my life rather than what I want to do. I believe that God me my gift for writing and creating a story but I am not sure if what I have been writing is working towards Gods goals for me.
What I am trying to ask is does anyone know a good way to incorporate Christian themes and morals into a dark fantasy novel. The only example I have of a fantasy novel with strong Christian influences and messages is The Chronicles of Narnia. Are there others out their and I just don't know about them?
Your help is much appreciated.
As far as the technical writing aspects of it go, Id give the same advice as others already have: Dont be heavy-handed or preachy, show Virtue rather than announcing it, and keep your audience in mind so you dont alienate the wrong people (every word ever written alienated somebody, so also dont get over-stressed by that). Michael is a powerful character in my opinion because he is an example of what a person living the Ideals if the faith rather than the more common stereotype of being closed-minded, self-righteous, or some other variation of the Inquisition. But he does it by example, and he even has the grace to be a little embarrassed by it when he gets preachy. Father Forthill is another likable example. But if you are going for contrasting the Spiritual Path vs the Dogmatic Path, you are probably going to need Paragons of each to act as foils to each other.
As far as finding your Message, Id say take a very close look at your reawakened faith and and find your characterization in that. You say it has helped you profoundly on a personal level.. How? You want to use the Trinity idea to know God through a more human Figure (ie Son/Daughter) then ask yourself What would your God be like if made Flesh, what would his/her personality be like? How would such a person react in human situations, when the moral path isnt very clear.
At the end of the day it is the story you are trying to tell, the Message you are trying to get out. If you believe God has given you a Life experience for the better and a calling to share what you learned from it, Id go with that. One of the central tenants of writing is to "Write what you Know, what you Believe" That seems the logical place to start.
Good Luck :-)
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I personally am not a christian but there are places where a story could reflect one's ideals. Such as with Jim's books I've noticed a lot of smartassery that I can only surmise has come directly from the author. In a way I believe that a lot of Harry Dresden's own personal quirks and responses would be shared by the author, a way of venting his own demons through his writing. First person perspective in the story I fell backs me up.
Now the fact that you are a christian might be reflected in your character or even characters depending on the dark fantasy story. The world is a dark place at times and in certain situations and places, we can all agree on that, Though with a christian viewpoint your characters could show a bit of a different perspective on their views of those circumstances.
Though as far as the Chronicles comment further up the board, that was an allegorical christian book and I don't feel it represents a dark fantasy so much as just a fantasy. I think that's like referring to Harry Potter as being a dark fantasy which I do not feel it is.
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In a way I believe that a lot of Harry Dresden's own personal quirks and responses would be shared by the author, a way of venting his own demons through his writing. First person perspective in the story I fell backs me up.
I don't know. I've always thought part of the point of a really good convincing first-person voice was to make it distinct and unlike anyone else, and I really hope that nobody's going to take my first-person narrators' personal quirks and responses as hints at what mine are.
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I don't know. I've always thought part of the point of a really good convincing first-person voice was to make it distinct and unlike anyone else, and I really hope that nobody's going to take my first-person narrators' personal quirks and responses as hints at what mine are.
How much of an author is in a given character probably varies from author to author and style to style. Some authors choose a voice specifically because it is counter to their own perspective, others may use it to vent some inner voice, still others may be basing on somebody they've met so that its a sort of caricature of that individual.
That being said I think it would be pretty hard to write a convincing smartass if you don't have one inside you somewhere.
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That being said I think it would be pretty hard to write a convincing smartass if you don't have one inside you somewhere.
There are some writers of first-person smartass characters where I suspect that part of the point is "sometimes if I think about it for hours I can come up with really good lines but I never can in time for them to be good comebacks in conversation, so I'm going to write someone who gets the benefit of my hours of thinking of good lines to say them in the moment", so in that case the writer in person may not come across as a convincing smartass at all.
(On the other hand, Steven Brust is a totally convincing smartass in person.)
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I have a huge amount of respect for Brandon Sanderson's abilities when it comes to poring out creative fantacy with hugely different and world important religious aspects that have nothing to do with the dogma of his own personally deeply rooted religious faith.
Elantris was a work of art with no less than 3 profoundly different approaches to religion (one main character esentially ascended to a broken godhood, one was rather agnostic, and one was a member of zealous religion but was struggling with loss of faith). All three perspectives were marvelously well written with no petty faults that made their perspective weak and dismissable.
Warbreaker was another book that was strongly influenced by the religion of the fantacy world it was built in.
Also, this essay (http://brandonsanderson.com/article/51/EUOLogy-Dumbledores-Homosexuality), (the parent subject of which is TT for our purposes) contains some pretty good points about how he handles matters of faith in his art.