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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Ghsdkgb on February 16, 2012, 09:25:51 PM

Title: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Ghsdkgb on February 16, 2012, 09:25:51 PM
Let's say I have a character with Inhuman Toughness or Recovery, and their Catch is a certain breed of creature (like Outsiders or Fae or Demons or whatever)

Would a Scion or Changeling fulfill that catch? Like, if it's Outsiders (which fan theories indicate the Uber-ghouls from White Night presumably are), would ordinary Ghouls fill it? Or if it's Fae, would a Changeling fill it?

It's kind of a gray area, and a current point of contention in our campaign. Opinions abound!
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: wyvern on February 16, 2012, 10:34:20 PM
Hm.  Depends on a variety of factors, including the actual rebate value of the catch, metaphysical details for your particular game, etc.

For my perspective, the overall answer is "maybe".  For your specific examples, I'd say no to ordinary ghouls (I also don't think the uber-ghouls are outsider-empowered - but even if they are, there's no reason to think that would pass on to their lesser brethren), but yes to changelings, since they are inherently part fae.

Your third comment seems to about sum it up.  It's a grey area.  Opinions will, indeed, abound.  Worst comes to worst, resolve it via a compel - if accepted, PC is vulnerable to X for this scene (or this game session, or whatever seems appropriate); if bought off, not.  And then you can have fun trying to figure out why, say, only some changelings count as fae for your catch.
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: UmbraLux on February 16, 2012, 10:56:07 PM
I'd say it could.  You might want some scions or half-breeds to invoke their high concept (or whatever relates them to the other species) if their relationship isn't obvious.  If it is obvious, I wouldn't require the invoke. 
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Haru on February 16, 2012, 10:57:42 PM
How about this: if the scion or changeling uses any of his supernatural powers for an attack, the catch is met. If not, then not.

One question that remains is weapons. Is it a catch like the nazgul king, that he "can only be beaten by a woman", then it would translate through a weapon. If the catch is the touch of the creature in question, then of course it would not.
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Ghsdkgb on February 16, 2012, 11:28:44 PM
Quote from: Haru on February 16, 2012, 10:57:42 PM
How about this: if the scion or changeling uses any of his supernatural powers for an attack, the catch is met. If not, then not.

Most of the supernatural powers are just claws and teeth, though.

I kind of like the idea of buying it off with a compel, personally. Though how that'd work long-term is iffy; maybe I'll just give him a fate point every time these guys come up, if we agree to let them satisfy the Catch? After all, if they satisfy it now, there's no reason they wouldn't in the future.
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: sinker on February 16, 2012, 11:46:39 PM
Oddly enough this reminds me of Fred's statements on the cold iron thread that someone Necro-ed literally yesterday. That magic ebbs and flows, so it's tough to say "You must be this percentage of something to qualify." I like this answer because it backs up the one I'd go for and that is that it meets that catch when it's better for the story. Of course it's tough for some players when there is no clear and predictable system, so I'd probably couple that idea with the whole compel/invoke idea.
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: UmbraLux on February 16, 2012, 11:47:30 PM
To be clear, I was talking about having the NPC invoke his own aspect / high concept rather than compelling the PC.  Though either probably works.
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: sqlcowboy on February 17, 2012, 12:13:03 AM
Hi, the player in question here :)  I agreed to abide by the general consensus here though.

My argument on Ghouls is that they breed true, so that means they're more natural than unnatural (I'll give that in our game they qualify as Outsiders), if that makes sense to folks.  That's why I brought up the question in the first place.

Can two Changelings have a Changeling kid or would it be a human?  That'd be an interesting twist... and does that mean they are more human or more fae?
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: polkaneverdies on February 17, 2012, 12:23:20 AM
Ghouls are a different species than über ghouls. They aren't really scions anymore because as the last post pointed out they breed true (clans). In my opinion it  would be more appropriate to think of the ubers as an ancestor rather than a parent.
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: wyvern on February 17, 2012, 12:24:03 AM
Quote from: sqlcowboy on February 17, 2012, 12:13:03 AM
Can two Changelings have a Changeling kid or would it be a human?  That'd be an interesting twist... and does that mean they are more human or more fae?
Well, it depends on why they're having a kid.  Remember, the choice can be made based on actions rather than deliberate choice - so two changelings deciding to settle down and have a family?  Poof, all are human.  One of them doing this for future power & influence, or maybe even just immediate gratification?  Poof, that one's fae, and the kid is a changeling.  Grey area?  They could still be changelings, and the kid would be too, imo.  It's all wibbley wobbley; go with whatever makes the most sense for the plot, or see if any PCs want to spend fate points on declarations.
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: devonapple on February 17, 2012, 12:24:22 AM
A pregnant Changeling would be a very interesting roleplaying study. The outcome of which I think the players would best determine.

My stance would be that the stress of the pregnancy would sooner or later force the Changeling to make The Choice. The stress of carrying it to term, let alone going through childbirth, may drive a Changeling mom-to-be to think real hard about the advantages of timeless magical Fairy medicine, versus that of modern mortal medicine.

And then, what of the baby if the Changeling chooses Fae?
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: UmbraLux on February 17, 2012, 03:43:48 AM
Quote from: sqlcowboy on February 17, 2012, 12:13:03 AM
My argument on Ghouls is that they breed true, so that means they're more natural than unnatural (I'll give that in our game they qualify as Outsiders), if that makes sense to folks.  That's why I brought up the question in the first place.
I'm not sold on the idea of ghouls as Outsiders personally.  I think they're more along the lines of necromantically twisted* human stock.  That said, if ghouls are created / powered by Outsiders in your setting, I'd simply have them invoke their high concept for effect to meet a catch of "Outsider" for a scene.  That fate point would come from a limited supply the NPCs earn, not from the bottomless GM supply.

*Going more from legend and fable than DF novels.  YMMV.

Quote
Can two Changelings have a Changeling kid or would it be a human?  That'd be an interesting twist... and does that mean they are more human or more fae?
Sure, why not?  I don't see changeling status as being percentage based...it's about the Choice.  So even a 1/4 fae might end up choosing full fae status at some point.
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Becq on February 17, 2012, 09:58:02 PM
Regarding the original question, I have a question back: How did you price your Catch (particularly the access portion of it)?  After all, that tells you how rarely to expect to see an attack that qualifies.

If you gave it the +0 option (only a couple of people in the universe have access), then it seems reasonable that only a very restrictive definition applies.  In the case of "Outsider" as a Catch, probably only the attacks of an honest-to-God Outsider (ex: He Who Walks Behind) would count.  For story purposes, you might also claim that a (exceedingly rare!) Item of Power -- crafted by an Outside, infused with its essence, and wielded by a loyal believer of that Outsider -- would count.  On the other hand, if you gave it a +2 for accessibility (anyone could reasonably get access), then you need to lower the bar enough to make that statement accurate.  In the case of an "Outsider" Catch, this probably means that anything touched by Outsider power would have to qualify.  So, for example, the Outsider equivalent of "holy water", or any item "sanctified" in a ritual using Outsider magic.  In between, +1 would probably cover attacks made using Outsider magic, or any attacks by a creature "of Outsider blood", including Scions.

By the way, the rarity of the creature plays a role, here, too.  Fae are much more common, so the above changes a bit.  The +0 option would probably have to be limited to attacks made by one of the Fae Queens themselves, for example.

At least, that's the way I would look at it.

Switching gears for a moment, where does this "Ghouls = Outsider Scion" stuff originate from?  I can't recall anything that would indicate that they have Outsider blood or are otherwise related to Outsiders, but perhaps I'm missing a reference somewhere.  I know there is the theory presented in OW that 'mundane' Ghouls are Scions of Uber-Ghouls, but beyond that I'm coming up blank.  I almost got the impression from what sqlcowboy was saying that "Outsider" was being used as a stand-in for "supernatural" (otherwise I have no idea what "breeding true" has to do with it).
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Ghsdkgb on February 17, 2012, 10:28:28 PM
Quote from: Becq on February 17, 2012, 09:58:02 PM
Switching gears for a moment, where does this "Ghouls = Outsider Scion" stuff originate from?  I can't recall anything that would indicate that they have Outsider blood or are otherwise related to Outsiders, but perhaps I'm missing a reference somewhere.  I know there is the theory presented in OW that 'mundane' Ghouls are Scions of Uber-Ghouls, but beyond that I'm coming up blank.  I almost got the impression from what sqlcowboy was saying that "Outsider" was being used as a stand-in for "supernatural" (otherwise I have no idea what "breeding true" has to do with it).
That's mostly fan-theory, that the Uber-ghouls are Outsiders, because of how Harry (and Lash) handled the conflict at the end of White Night
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Becq on February 17, 2012, 10:50:24 PM
You mean because they
(click to show/hide)
?  If so, consider that
(click to show/hide)
.

I tried to look for some discussion on Ghouls and Outsiders, but if there was one, I can't find it.  (Though the search engine here hates me, so that might not mean anything.)
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Ghsdkgb on February 19, 2012, 12:24:33 AM
No, no, more like

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Tedronai on February 19, 2012, 12:40:30 AM
Firstly, no, that was Lash's help that did that.  Second...what does that have to do with the ghouls?
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Ghsdkgb on February 22, 2012, 11:58:03 PM
Eh, this is getting into something that's already been thoroughly dissected on the Spoilers board. The general consensus there is "maybe" :-P
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: wyvern on February 23, 2012, 12:07:36 AM
Link, please?  I do frequent said spoiler board, and also remember no such consensus.

Edit: Not that that necessarily has much bearing on your game - if, in your game, uberghouls are outsiders, then that's what they are.  But I don't think it's really a good default assumption.
Title: Re: Scions, half-breeds, and Catches
Post by: Ghsdkgb on February 23, 2012, 04:47:03 PM
Oh, hell, this is from way back when White Night came out. Not sure the thread's even still around :-/

I tried a few Searches but didn't come up with anything. I was basically going off of (admittedly flawed) memory.