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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: KnightKD on January 27, 2012, 03:39:46 PM

Title: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: KnightKD on January 27, 2012, 03:39:46 PM
What's the story with Gruffs toting machine pistols and revolvers? Shouldn't that be an iron/fae issue?

Just a little thing I've been wondering. Perhaps I missed the explanation of that somewhere.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Tedronai on January 27, 2012, 03:46:40 PM
Maybe they bought off the compel.
Maybe they wore gloves.
Maybe the guns they were using were substantially composed of composite materials.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: KnightKD on January 27, 2012, 04:30:08 PM
Good thoughts.
How picky are fae when it comes to "iron". Do lead bullets count towards their catch? Or is it necessary to get the steel jacketed rounds? It seems a little odd for fae creatures to be employing "the bane" against their foes, but then again, that's pretty much any sword too...

(click to show/hide)

I guess I'm looking for a source of clarification on the bane thing.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Tedronai on January 27, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
First off, lead is not iron.
Second, swords can be made from other materials, including those available to the fae that are not available to the mortal world at large.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: KnightKD on January 27, 2012, 06:36:09 PM
I had realized that, but isn't there precedent in the books for gunshots satisfying the catch for fae? Offhand I can't remember, but I had thought it.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Tedronai on January 27, 2012, 06:49:06 PM
There was an incident involving one of the elder Gruffs and Murphy in Mac's Pub,
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Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Becq on January 27, 2012, 08:59:36 PM
Quote from: Tedronai on January 27, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
Second, swords can be made from other materials, including those available to the fae that are not available to the mortal world at large.
Such materials are collectively known as 'ectoplasm'.  While using weapons made from such materials can certainly be done (especially in the Nevernever), relying on them in the mortal world has potential disadvantages.  And some advantages, too...  (Hard to find an ectoplasmic murder weapon once it melts away...)

That said, though, ectoplasmic guns could be the answer to the machine-gun-toting Gruff question.  Or it could be a case of the Gruffs buying off the compel, as suggested earlier.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Jebm on January 28, 2012, 01:34:41 AM
I actually remember the gruffs wearing gloves when they attacked Harry including the trench coats,
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on January 28, 2012, 04:15:31 AM
I love the ectoplasm idea...
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Tedronai on January 28, 2012, 04:46:32 AM
Quote from: Becq on January 27, 2012, 08:59:36 PM
Such materials are collectively known as 'ectoplasm'.  While using weapons made from such materials can certainly be done (especially in the Nevernever), relying on them in the mortal world has potential disadvantages.  And some advantages, too...  (Hard to find an ectoplasmic murder weapon once it melts away...)

Fae creatures' bodies not being composed of ectoplasm, I do not find it inevitable that their swords would be.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Becq on January 28, 2012, 07:18:38 AM
Quote from: Tedronai on January 28, 2012, 04:46:32 AM
Fae creatures' bodies not being composed of ectoplasm, I do not find it inevitable that their swords would be.
Creatures of the Nevernever are collectively known as 'spirit' creatures (OW29).  Most such creatures require the loan of a body of some sort (ectoplasm bodies being one example).  But Fae are a special case: they are 'embodied' denizens of the Nevernever, which means they can enter the mortal world without the need for ectoplasmic bodies (OW29).  I'm not sure where I read the quote, but Jim had indicated that all Fae were originally human, which explains this.

But any 'special Fae metals' found somewhere in the Nevernever ... would be plain old ectoplasm in the mortal world.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Tedronai on January 28, 2012, 08:12:25 AM
Those first two statements are utterly irrelevant given the third, and I'm unfamiliar with the details of the reference in the fourth though I recall some conjecture to that effect on the forums a while back.

My point being that, with the precedent that at least some matter of the nevernever is not ectoplasm (fae bodies), it is possible that other matter of the nevernever might be of similar nature.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: vonpenguin on January 30, 2012, 05:04:38 PM
Wasn't something along the lines of copper mentioned in relation to fae arms and armor at one point?
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Orladdin on January 31, 2012, 02:54:11 PM
Quote from: vonpenguin on January 30, 2012, 05:04:38 PM
Wasn't something along the lines of copper mentioned in relation to fae arms and armor at one point?

Yeah, faeries are shown to use Bronze weapons at least one place in the books.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: polkaneverdies on January 31, 2012, 04:07:48 PM
iirc it was the more organized Hobs,who were attacking the Archive in the train station, that were carrying bronze weapons.
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 02, 2012, 05:54:14 PM
During Summer Knight there were many Fae described as wearing armour and using swords.  Things that looked like and acted like metal.  It may or may not be metal as we understand the world, but the image of a fairy knight in full plate is an old one.

Today we have metals that have very little (if any) iron content, and some guns could be made from them.  You can buy ceramic or plastic guns.  Maybe that's what the Gruffs did?

My take on the "Holy shit, they've got guns!" reaction is that them using guns shows foresight and an ability to change.  My view is that they went out and bought (or stole) real guns to neutralise Harry's skills at blocking fairy magics.  In short, they saw a problem (a powerful wizard who is used to fighting Fae) and thought up a solution (real world guns) and them being able to do that really freaked Harry out.

Richard
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: devonapple on February 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
From http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f14/alloys-metals-used-gun-manufacture-36032/
"The first guns were likely made of brass and bronze. Later they were made of wrought iron, then steel/iron combined as Damascus or Twist , then various steels. Steels are in themselves a whole field of study- it forms different crystals at different temperatures- research terms cementite and austentite. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of different alloys (you DO realize that steel itself is an alloy?) that have different amounts of manganese, chrome, nickel,carbon, vanadium, molybdenum etc. Then you move to the field of stainless steels. There have been gun barrels made that were a combination of steel, aluminum, and synthetic fibers. There are "airweight" framed guns made of aluminum alloys (and THOSE are a field of its own), and titanium, Scandium alloys, etc.

Various polymer framed guns are forms of plastic, combined with steel- have even seen one AR style frame made of PET (same stuff plastic soda bottles are made of) and ONE made of wood. M60 machine guns have barrels lined with Stellite, and some guns have firing pins made of berylium alloy. I have even seen one handgun made for a spy agency that was ALL plastic."

Here is a closeup of the Gruffs with the gun (the illustration from the DFRPG book):
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,15682.0.html

And in that thread, someone brought up the iron issue, to which iago replied "That's assuming the gun's made of iron or an iron alloy like steel, of course"
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,15682.msg723267.html#msg723267

Soooooo... I guess it isn't iron or steel?
Title: Re: Guns and Gruffs?
Post by: Tedronai on February 02, 2012, 07:30:36 PM
Quote from: devonapple on February 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
Soooooo... I guess it isn't iron or steel?

We don't have enough information to solidly support that conclusion, but it is a definite possibility.