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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: meg_evonne on December 04, 2011, 04:23:11 PM
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Why would a writer use, "seems"? Why would any writer do that, and we ALL do it in first drafts and even in final copy edits! How can reporting a feeling or an action rather than giving the reader that same thing directly?
As the frustrated reader, the writer is cheating me and putting up a barrier between me and the character or the action. Even when a writer wants to distance the reader from a particular character for some great reason, I can't be satisfied until you SHOW me why I'm distanced rather than TELLING me.
Please don't ever TELL me. I'm a bright intelligent reader, and I don't want you to TELL me anything--SHOW me!
OK, that was harsh for a Sunday morning. It must be my hungry stomach... Sorry, but I'll post it anyway, because it is true. Never talk down to your reader, whether they are ten or ninety.
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Can you give some examples of what you mean? I'm not getting the gist of the post and I'm intrigued.
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The only time I find myself using the word "seem" or its equivalent is when I'm in one character's POV, trying to describe (whether showing or telling) the actions of another character.
What's their motivation, why are the doing or saying what they do?
The currently occupied chaarcter can't really know, but by observation of body language, tone of voice etc they can make an educated guess.
So, the other person my "seem to reconsider" or may "seem to be preoccupied by their recollections", because the POV'er can't really know for sure.
Is that what you mean, or is it something else entirely?
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I would think it should only be used when describing something the character isn't sure is there.
Take this bit from very early in my story. A bit description heavy, but its meant to add a bit more suspense to the first encounter...
"A few moments later a five foot tall, twenty foot long, bipedal, feathered reptile clicked into view at the T-junction in the tunnels to Keth’s left. Its black scales and feathers seemed to glimmer with hidden turquoise and red-gold highlights as it turned its serpentine neck toward Keth."
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In one particular piece I've been working on, the narrator "seems" all the time. He has to guess at what the others around him are thinking and feeling. Other times, he is describing something he has never seen before (or is unsure is genuinely real, darned pesky illusions...), and his terminology is peppered with uncertainty. Yet another case, he does not speak the language of one of the company's traveling companions, and must constantly guess what it is she says purely by judging her facial expression and body language.
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I'm only guessing here, but it may be another "show, don't tell" thing, as in:
"Roger seemed anxious."
"Roger figeted and drummed his fingers on the table."
Both convey basically the same message, but the second one uses actions to describe Roger's state of mind, and is therefore considered "stronger" writing. I could be dead wrong, though--Meg?
(And I agree, if you need to convey a character's uncertainty, you need less-than-definite terminology to do so, so "seems" should be okay in that instance.)
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I'm only guessing here, but it may be another "show, don't tell" thing, as in:
"Roger seemed anxious."
"Roger figeted and drummed his fingers on the table."
Both convey basically the same message, but the second one uses actions to describe Roger's state of mind, and is therefore considered "stronger" writing. I could be dead wrong, though--Meg?
(And I agree, if you need to convey a character's uncertainty, you need less-than-definite terminology to do so, so "seems" should be okay in that instance.)
That's how I've heard it described--that it's usually more telling than anything. Using "seemed" was mentioned in a Writing Excuses podcast, though I forget which one, and because of having recently listened to that, I'm a bit hyper-aware of using the word. Except the couple times I've noticed it, it's in a way that I can't reword it and keep the same meaning using anything but seem.
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Precision of usage would eliminate that "weakness" of the word; Aminar is on the right track for that aspect. On the other hand, sometimes shorthanding a description advances the action more satisfactorily than "showing" would do.
There's a delicate balance in all of this; coming down firmly on one side would do a disservice to the process.
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Precision of usage would eliminate that "weakness" of the word; Aminar is on the right track for that aspect. On the other hand, sometimes shorthanding a description advances the action more satisfactorily than "showing" would do.
There's a delicate balance in all of this; coming down firmly on one side would do a disservice to the process.
Which pretty much goes back to you have to know the rules before you can break them.
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Which pretty much goes back to you have to know the rules before you can break them.
Bingo. The key to good writing.
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The only time I find myself using the word "seem" or its equivalent is when I'm in one character's POV, trying to describe (whether showing or telling) the actions of another character.
What's their motivation, why are the doing or saying what they do?
The currently occupied chaarcter can't really know, but by observation of body language, tone of voice etc they can make an educated guess.
So, the other person my "seem to reconsider" or may "seem to be preoccupied by their recollections", because the POV'er can't really know for sure.
Is that what you mean, or is it something else entirely?
Yes, you've got my point and the example you use is great, because that is exactly the challenge of writing without the 'seem' modifier. It is especially difficult in this very situation.
I would think it should only be used when describing something the character isn't sure is there.
Take this bit from very early in my story. A bit description heavy, but its meant to add a bit more suspense to the first encounter...
"A few moments later a five foot tall, twenty foot long, bipedal, feathered reptile clicked into view at the T-junction in the tunnels to Keth’s left. Its black scales and feathers seemed to glimmer with hidden turquoise and red-gold highlights as it turned its serpentine neck toward Keth."
This is an excellent choice to discuss, especially since it is in the beginning of your story where you are desperately wanting to grab that reader's attention. In your point of view, which is 3rd from a narrator's viewpoint, there isn't a seemed. It either glimmers or it doesn't. The point of view might be wrong in the observation, but to the narrator it glimmers. At least in my opinion, using 'seemed' steps your reader away from the action, whereas not using it places the reader in the narrator's shoes with more intimacy. Think of reporting the glimpse of a hummingbird's irridescent ruby throat and colors--it does glimmer. Yes, it doesn't in reality glimmer with its own energy, but from a practical standpoint--it does glimmer. I don't think you would say, "The hummingbird seems to glimmer." unless you were writing scientific non-fiction. In a short story, you would say, "It glimmered." And you would do this because you want the glimmer to mean something to the reader.
*sighing* because I know I'm not explaining this right... But to me as an editor, the difference in intimacy with the reader is worlds different and far more satisfying without the 'seem' modifier."Roger figeted and drummed his fingers on the table."
Both convey basically the same message, but the second one uses actions to describe Roger's state of mind, and is therefore considered "stronger" writing. I could be dead wrong, though--Meg?
(And I agree, if you need to convey a character's uncertainty, you need less-than-definite terminology to do so, so "seems" should be okay in that instance.)
Dead on example Liz. Yet, I would argue that conveying a character's uncertainty is definitely not a place for 'seem' modifier. Consider it a matter of trust in your reader and it doesn't have to be long. Look at Liz' example 8 words to replace 3. You gain invaluable engagement with the reader. You are asking the reader to step up to the plate and make the leap to the character's uncertainty. The 'seem' modifer is a cheat in my humble opinion, while Liz' example is a writer earning his/her keep and doing it right.
I'm willing to bet that more than one agent does a simple word search for seem and if they find a lot? Reject letter.
Rob, I've read some of your work and, like Shecky said, rules are made to be broken. I trust your writing! In this case, the narrator is still making mental decisions. It might be effective to have those non-concrete contradictory assumptions rolling one off the other in rapid recession. I'd love that wild ride! Yes, it would drive me crazy, but also extremely sympathetic to the character, whereas too many of those seems for several pages would make me mad at the author? Does that make sense? I'd consider it an honor to share that ride with the character, but irritating to be held off by the narrator. I mean the narrator is having to act and respond on what he thinks each statement is or action that happens.
*sigh* again, I'm not expressing this well. Let me just say, that I would absolutely love to read this work and get lost in translation hand in hand with the characters, but if it were several pages of 'seems' where I was observing instead, then I might walk away from it?
To be honest Rob, the seem would be okay, even good, but can you imagine the awesome impact on the reader the other way? Freaking award level maybe...
BUT it is the author's choice and rules are made to be broken. I kinda trust you on that Rob... :-)
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... sometimes shorthanding a description advances the action more satisfactorily than "showing" would do.
There's a delicate balance in all of this; coming down firmly on one side would do a disservice to the process.
And I think this is where I wil have to make my distinctions during the edit phase.
The work is fairly action oriented, especially in some spots, making me lean a bit more toward telling at those points so as to keep the action flowing.
But I will still need to make a conscious effort to search throughout for my usage of "seems" (and any synonyms) so I can do a better job of spotting the places where an "8 words for 3" swap would very much benefit the reader's experience.
Making the transition from a more omni type of style to one that's much more third person oriented has been something I've struggled with a bit, and one of the keys to helping me do that has been to try and be more cognizant of the limitations the current POV character has as it relates to what any other character can hear, smell, see, feel, etc.
So I've no doubt got "seems" and "appears" all over the place especially in the earlier chapters. ;D
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Rob, I've read some of your work and, like Shecky said, rules are made to be broken. I trust your writing! In this case, the narrator is still making mental decisions. It might be effective to have those non-concrete contradictory assumptions rolling one off the other in rapid recession. I'd love that wild ride! Yes, it would drive me crazy, but also extremely sympathetic to the character, whereas too many of those seems for several pages would make me mad at the author? Does that make sense? I'd consider it an honor to share that ride with the character, but irritating to be held off by the narrator. I mean the narrator is having to act and respond on what he thinks each statement is or action that happens.
*sigh* again, I'm not expressing this well. Let me just say, that I would absolutely love to read this work and get lost in translation hand in hand with the characters, but if it were several pages of 'seems' where I was observing instead, then I might walk away from it?
To be honest Rob, the seem would be okay, even good, but can you imagine the awesome impact on the reader the other way? Freaking award level maybe...
BUT it is the author's choice and rules are made to be broken. I kinda trust you on that Rob... :-)
Looking through the statistics for the manuscript, the narrator "seems" (seemed, seeming, etc) a lot more than I'd thought. About 254 times in what would be 568 paperback pages. :o The narrator, I think, needs to do more straight observing/reporting and leave the interpretation to the readers. There is definitely room for the "eight words for three" trick in a lot of places in the narrative, as well.
Having more than one character around to guess at the meaning(s) across the language barrier means we don't have to rely solely on the narrator's guesswork. Now that I've written that, I need to remember to use that device more often.
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This is an excellent choice to discuss, especially since it is in the beginning of your story where you are desperately wanting to grab that reader's attention. In your point of view, which is 3rd from a narrator's viewpoint, there isn't a seemed. It either glimmers or it doesn't. The point of view might be wrong in the observation, but to the narrator it glimmers. At least in my opinion, using 'seemed' steps your reader away from the action, whereas not using it places the reader in the narrator's shoes with more intimacy. Think of reporting the glimpse of a hummingbird's irridescent ruby throat and colors--it does glimmer. Yes, it doesn't in reality glimmer with its own energy, but from a practical standpoint--it does glimmer. I don't think you would say, "The hummingbird seems to glimmer." unless you were writing scientific non-fiction. In a short story, you would say, "It glimmered." And you would do this because you want the glimmer to mean something to the reader.
*sighing* because I know I'm not explaining this right... But to me as an editor, the difference in intimacy with the reader is worlds different and far more satisfying without the 'seem' modifier.
I don't mean to hijack the thread but I'm still a bit of a newbie at this writing shindig and love good advice.
Now, functionally the thing does glimmer.(Long story short, it's from another plane of existence intrinsically connected to dusk(sort of).) The seems is supposed to convey the evanescent nature of that glimmer, but I can't find words to describe that concretely without awkward narration and adding even more description where I feel I'm at the cap of how much I can describe the thing without cutting away interest too much...
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Sometimes Aminar you have to slop it down on the page. It's first draft anyway, right? You'll use the info later maybe, and you might find a miracle way of describing it as you slog through the details. I'm sure that there are writers who don't have to do that; I not one of them... :-)
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Yep, definitely a first draft. Poised to hit 100K tonight though. (Of a planned roughly 150K) I'm figuring I'll learn how to edit after I learn to write.
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I wondered if there was a 'historical' trend on the use of 'seem', so I searched some books on Amazon. I'll let you draw your own conclusions. Also, I've been calling it a modifier, while it is obviously a linked verb. Sorry about that guys.
Dead beat 24..
Small Favor 33
Proven Guilty 37
White Knight 22
Patrick Rothfuss Wise Man’s Fear… 148 in 739 plus pages.
Brandon Sanderson Way of Kings 129 in 867 plus pages
George RR Martin Game of Thrones 82 in 709 plus pages
DaVinci Code Brown 23 in 546 plus pages
John Irving National Book Award Imaginary Girlfriend 9
Charles Dickens short A Christmas Carol….. 1
Tolkien’s Two Towers…. 74 in 396 plus pages
I found it interesting that one of the epics that I listed used it as one character's dialog quirk trait, as in 'It would seem...", which I found cool.
And Aminar.... you got it. congrats on 100K that is fantastic!
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How do you search a manuscript (in Word) for a specific word, such as seem? I'm curious.
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How do you search a manuscript (in Word) for a specific word, such as seem? I'm curious.
It's a trick I learned from Priscellie. Go to Amazon.com and search the book. If it has the 'look inside' arrow, click on the cover and there will be a search box for words. Then it will bring up all the words you enter and the passages so you can go to that page to read. You can type phrases as well. Not all books have the feature, usually only the older ones.
You can search your word docs by hitting ctrl and f at the same time. A box will pop up called Find and Replace. If you click on find it will bring them up and you can page through them. If you click replace, you can replace a word with another through out the doc. Love this little feature when I change the name of a character halfway through a book. CAUTION: If you enter a word that is contained within another (like search other, it will bring up another) but it will only replace the word so use with extreme care when you are near the end of editing your work! You might never find an error that will pop glaringly out of the page.
Part of my manuscript scrunity includes searches: for 'ly'; for modifiers like 'most' and 'always'; passive verb usage trends by searching 'had', frequency of 'said'--just as examples of how it can be used. I just read a review for an author that I liked and several people on the audible reviews said they had never heard the word, "said" so many times! Eek. Yes, your mind will slip over it when reading, but hearing it in your ear over and over would become very dis-satisfying.
Also when I'm writing 1st POV, it is extremely helpful to search out "I". One agent told me that my character was full of herself. Thankfully, rather than be upset, I asked him what he meant. I simply abused "I" and it literally dripped all over my first 50. Eek... See you learn all the time and yes, it was probably as irritating as He** to read it with that many of them. Do you know how hard it is to write 1st without a lot of "I"s--very difficult. Since the search highlights them, it is easy to shrink your manuscript down to ten pages per view on your computer and see where clumps of them pop up.
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It's a trick I learned from Priscellie. Go to Amazon.com and search the book. If it has the 'look inside' arrow, click on the cover and there will be a search box for words. Then it will bring up all the words you enter and the passages so you can go to that page to read. You can type phrases as well. Not all books have the feature, usually only the older ones.
You can search your word docs by hitting ctrl and f at the same time. A box will pop up called Find and Replace. If you click on find it will bring them up and you can page through them. If you click replace, you can replace a word with another through out the doc. Love this little feature when I change the name of a character halfway through a book. CAUTION: If you enter a word that is contained within another (like search other, it will bring up another) but it will only replace the word so use with extreme care when you are near the end of editing your work! You might never find an error that will pop glaringly out of the page.
If you click the "More" option at the bottom of the window, it gives you several check box options such as "Match Case", Find Whole Words Only" Ignore Punctuation Characters" and others that help protect you from some of those dangers. It also opens options that you search for specific formatting, Special Characters (such as Paragraph Mark). On later Word Versions there is a "sounds like" option, that is great for trying to find that obscure quote you mostly remember but cant seem to get verbatim, as well as a "Find all word forms" for those words that don't conjugate uniformly.
I would not Survive without my Find/Replace :)
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Ah, okay, I figured it out. Duh!! :)
I found twenty-eight uses of "seem" or some permutation thereof in my own manuscript of 117,000 words. Sixteen are in dialogue, which I assume is okay.(?)
There are a few more I can probably cut or change.
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Ah, okay, I figured it out. Duh!! :)
I found twenty-eight uses of "seem" or some permutation thereof in my own manuscript of 117,000 words. Sixteen are in dialogue, which I assume is okay.(?)
There are a few more I can probably cut or change.
I don't honestly remember anything sticking out when I read your CBB; so now I think we've managed to make you paranoid. Are you referring to your new manuscript? No one can actually say yes or no to you without reading, because of the subjective nature of the useage, but I would fully trust your own instincts and that is a tiny number. I doubt you have any problems at all. Relax, my friend and hugs!!!! And keep me posted on your agent quest.
edited to remove an overwhelmingly horrific number of exclamation marks for 3:54PM in the afternoon--or any time of day actually.
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I don't honestly remember anything sticking out when I read your CBB; so now I think we've managed to make you paranoid. Are you referring to your new manuscript?
It's the murder mystery I'm currently querying; completed prior to the self-pubbed book but edited several times since then. Don't worry; I'm not getting paranoid! I actually have quite a lot of confidence in the MS.