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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JayTee on November 05, 2011, 01:52:43 AM
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A game type I've been kicking around in my head for a while now is where the characters are not the Wizards and True Believers and Mortals, but Godlike entities like Mab and Odin, He Who Walks Behind and The Fallen in their true form.
The catch is that you would be playing these character before they were the heads of their respective organizations. Mab would still be the Winter Lady as opposed to the Winter Queen, Odin would still be little more than the Son of Bor, He Who Walks Behind and The Fallen would not have the political or mystical clout that they currently enjoy.
Players would engage in celestial political maneuvers and cosmic battles for the fate of entire geographic locations, if not the whole of the Mortal World, on a regular basis. The problem is that in order to realistically represent such characters, the starting refresh level would likely have to be around 15 or so. I am only partially familiar with the system, having only recently started playing after long last, so I am unsure of how a high-refresh level game would affect things.
Alternately, instead of starting at a high refresh I start things out at Submerged, and have it so that a "Good" Roll is Good by the standards of godly entities, rather than mortals.
So, my question is twofold:
First, does a high-refresh level affect gameplay in a significant way beyond the obvious fact that you have access to higher levels of power?
Second, would simply declaring that the power level is "Good by Godly standards" feel to you, the players, like you were playing a high powered entity? Or would you need something more than that?
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Going by personal experience from GMing an 18 refresh game:
-15 refresh would not be nearly enough for godlings. My characters don't feel godlike at all.
-Gameplay doesn't really change that much. It's just...bigger. There are more mooks running around, but that's not a big change.
-The skill cap is very important.
"Good by Godly standards" sounds like a bad idea. If you get into a swordfight with a Great mortal fencer, what happens? Do you win instantly?
And what rituals can you do with a godly base complexity of 5?
PS: If you want to see the 18 refresh game I mentioned, it's on the PbP boards. It's called Enduring The Apocalypse.
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-15 refresh would not be nearly enough for godlings. My characters don't feel godlike at all.
I was going by Maeve's and Lilly's writeup, both of them are around 14-15 refresh. Since this game would feature Mab as the Winter Lady and what amounts to a young Odin, I thought this would be a good starting point.
"Good by Godly standards" sounds like a bad idea. If you get into a swordfight with a Great mortal fencer, what happens? Do you win instantly?
I actually hadn't planned to include Mortals at all, this would have been a wholly cosmic affair.
And what rituals can you do with a godly base complexity of 5?
I would need to brush up on the magic section before answering this question with any reasonable degree of intelligence, so I'll get back to you when I've had a few hours to read it over and better understand it.
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Doesn't really work. DFRPG has pretty much all gods and godlike entities as negative refresh characters lacking free will. Basically meaning you could play them but you could never buy off a compel, at least to your seven core aspects.
If you don't mind ignoring that bit of RAW and canon, you could probably make a game of it. It's going to end up one of two ways though: either a largescale chess match that would feel powerful but lacking direct action or scaled up PCs vs scaled up NPCs that wouldn't feel any more powerful but would have plenty of direct conflict. You can't feel awesomely powerful unless you can kick the crap out of most comers but you can't stay interested unless there is real threat and challenge every session.
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If you don't mind ignoring that bit of RAW and canon, you could probably make a game of it.
This is more or less what I had planned, although I would be justifying it with the whole "young godling" schtick.
It's going to end up one of two ways though: either a largescale chess match that would feel powerful but lacking direct action or scaled up PCs vs scaled up NPCs that wouldn't feel any more powerful but would have plenty of direct conflict.
So there's no possible way to reconcile the two? No way to mix a social conflict who's results will have far-reaching effects and a physical conflict vs mythical assassins and whatnot?
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Personally I would recommend the Fairy Wars where everything was Epic (according to Bob) or another setting where you can scale everything up high enough so that there are challenges for your players. If everything is scaled rightly enough I don't think you should have any problem mixing social and physical combat.
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Personally I would recommend the Fairy Wars where everything was Epic (according to Bob)
Ideally I would not only include this, but also the Ragnarok wars (Odin mentions the Jotunns having been defeated, something that only happens during Ragnarok in Norse mythology), as well as a host of other mythological events.
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Doesn't really work. DFRPG has pretty much all gods and godlike entities as negative refresh characters lacking free will. Basically meaning you could play them but you could never buy off a compel, at least to your seven core aspects.
If you don't mind ignoring that bit of RAW and canon, you could probably make a game of it. It's going to end up one of two ways though: either a largescale chess match that would feel powerful but lacking direct action or scaled up PCs vs scaled up NPCs that wouldn't feel any more powerful but would have plenty of direct conflict. You can't feel awesomely powerful unless you can kick the crap out of most comers but you can't stay interested unless there is real threat and challenge every session.
This.
Either that or its just playing a normal game with bigger numbers. Might as well use the smaller numbers.
If you don't use mortals, Gods can't exist. (no believers) having no mortals to manipulate and pander to or torment takes away the fun of godhood.
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So there's no possible way to reconcile the two? No way to mix a social conflict who's results will have far-reaching effects and a physical conflict vs mythical assassins and whatnot?
By amping up PC power? No. It's all going to be down to you and your storytelling skills as GM. The only thing they're going to feel godlike against just by their power level are things that offer no challenge, like mortals.
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Hm. Well I asked my questions and I got my answers, even if they were answers I didn't like. But they were honest, helpful answers by people who know way more about this game than I do, so whether I like them or not is irrelevant.
It seems that if I ever want to have this game happen, three things need to get done first: 1) I need to develop my GMing and story telling skills. 2) I need to become much more familiar with the system, and 3) I simply need more flat out experience.
Thank you for your feedback everyone!
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There is something to be said for big numbers. They open up a great number of possibilities.
Anyway, a few months ago I gave some thought to stats for Mab in DFRPG. I quickly realized that I was going to have to invent a lot of new stuff if I wanted reasonable stats. Here's what I came up with:
1. Upgraded Physical Immunity that protects against maneuvers and blocks as well.
2. A permanent power similar to All Creatures Are Equal Before God.
3. Self-Sponsored Magic.
4. The ability to take (lots of) Sponsor debt for all kinds of different things.
5. Really, really, really, impressive evocation-speed Thaumaturgy.
6. Standard uber-character stunts and skills and powers.
7. Marked By Power+
I think that this provides a decent start on actual rules for gods. 1 and 2 make fighting a god virtually impossible. 3 and 4 give gods what amounts to a huge-but-finite tank of power to spend on whatever they want while binding them closely to their own natures. 5 allows for divine miracles of the sort you're looking for. 6 and 7 are just mandatory.
Gods statted on this model would be able to do essentially anything within their own themes if they were willing to spend their reserves of sponsor debt. But they'd constantly have to husband those reserves of power. Anything which could wipe away previous debt or give them more to spend would be precious to them. (Like the stone table in Summer Knight, maybe.)
I got distracted and never went anywhere with this. Maybe you'll find it useful, I dunno.
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Oh, don't get me wrong. I didn't say it wouldn't be fun to play. If you think you can do the story you have floating around in your head justice, do it. If not, work on it while you run other scenarios until you think its time has come.
Just remember two things:
1) The tougher the fight, the more epic the win.
2) Starting power level is largely irrelevant, accomplishment is as sweet to a plumber as it is to a god.
They both apply to every game ever made and life in general.
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You should check Kerberos Club. It has some nifty rules on different tiers of power. And it is a damn fine read. Here is a link to a discussion on the power tiers:
http://arcdream.com/home/?p=866
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1. Upgraded Physical Immunity that protects against maneuvers and blocks as well.
Mab can't be tripped? Or have silly string sprayed in her eyes? Or be impeded by a threshold? (a highly specialized form of block against physical, among other, actions)
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Mab can't be tripped? Or have silly string sprayed in her eyes? Or be impeded by a threshold? (a highly specialized form of block against physical, among other, actions)
Barring Cold Iron and the Trappings Of Summer, yeah I'd imagine that's the case. Can you really imagine Mab being tripped?
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Can you really imagine Mab being tripped?
Yep. Can also imagine her being extremely pissed about it.
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Barring Cold Iron and the Trappings Of Summer, yeah I'd imagine that's the case. Can you really imagine Mab being tripped?
Yep. It's hilarious. Then the tripper dies. Hilariously.
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If a mortal can send you sprawling to the ground, you aren't much of a god. If silly string in your eyes can bother you, you aren't much of a god. Trying to kick Mab in the ankle will make your foot freeze and shatter before you can even touch her.
A god is so much stronger than a mortal that tactics and luck are not relevant: the mortal just loses if they fight. The mortal cannot do anything to affect the god even slightly. My proposed PI upgrade makes that true.
It wouldn't work against thresholds, though. Or against Declarations, or against Assessments, or against Wards, or against a concrete wall. As a general rule, it would only protect against things that are acting on you.
PS: The above only applies to physical and mental stuff. Socially, mortals can put up a fight against the gods.
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If a mortal can send you sprawling to the ground, you aren't much of a god. If silly string in your eyes can bother you, you aren't much of a god. Trying to kick Mab in the ankle will make your foot freeze and shatter before you can even touch her.
A god is so much stronger than a mortal that tactics and luck are not relevant: the mortal just loses if they fight. The mortal cannot do anything to affect the god even slightly. My proposed PI upgrade makes that true.
It wouldn't work against thresholds, though. Or against Declarations, or against Assessments, or against Wards, or against a concrete wall. As a general rule, it would only protect against things that are acting on you.
PS: The above only applies to physical and mental stuff. Socially, mortals can put up a fight against the gods.
That depends on how are you defining 'mortal'. The assembled Senior Council are mortals, and yet I suspect that they could, if they put their minds and wills to the task, knock Mab on her ass (and then pay the hilarious price for doing so).
Similarly, I just really don't see how any of that can't be represented by Godly skill distributions rather than some absolute Immunity.
As for your exemptions, well, those would have to be spelled out in the actual power.
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Obviously all this discussion is a touch pointless while the power remains unwritten.
But I have always received the impression that even The Merlin couldn't scratch Mab without cold iron or some sort of plot-fu.
The reason for using absolute Immunity is that it's supposed to be horribly unfair. You do not get to fight Mab. It's not just that you lose; you don't get to fight in the first place. (Barring plot).
I generally dislike absolutes because the above situation sucks to play. But that's alright here because Mab's entire narrative role is to be an invincible plot device. A fight scene against her is just not a thing that should happen.
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For an explanation by Jim on how powerful Mab is see here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10920.msg462550.html#msg462550), here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10920.msg462597.html#msg462597), and especially here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11012.msg462610.html#msg462610).
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For an explanation by Jim on how powerful Mab is see here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10920.msg462550.html#msg462550), here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10920.msg462597.html#msg462597), and especially here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11012.msg462610.html#msg462610).
Like I said, if the whole of the White Council could, hypothetically, destroy her, I'm pretty sure the assembled Senior Council could knock her on her ass. (And then die hilariously.)
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Only with her Name. i.e. Plot.
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Only with her Name. i.e. Plot.
To destroy her, yes.
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A game system doesn't necessarily need 'bigger number' to represent higher power. You just have to decide what things are going to fall off the bottom of the power scale.
For example, we could play a Watership Down style game about rabbit, where the differences in size, skill, and speed between rabbits would mean a lot. But on a human scale, all the characters are pretty much just scenery.
So, one way to play powerful characters is to just let certain things fall off the bottom of the power curve.
Here's a rough example:
High powered game play:
When comparing to human scale opponents:
Assume your base skills start at 5, rather than 0.
You have supernatural 'everything' (strength, speed, toughness, etc)
Now, you have 25 skill points and 6 refresh to differentiate yourself from the other people who play at this power level.
you don't get in a fight with human goons at this level, just like Harry doesn't get into a fight with rabbits.
Your minimum goon scale is something like an old black court vampire, who would have skills of 1 or 2 on your scale, and no strength, speed, etc powers that matter.
A powered up skin walker (skills ~7-8 on a human scale and mythic everything) becomes a minor named character, who has inhuman everything on your scale and most important skills at 2 or 3.
Applying scaling like this makes the numbers and calculations involved with the game much easier to handle. It also leave much more room at the top of the game system, for your big antagonists.
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But then you have to rewrite everything. Lifting/breaking difficulties, NPC stats, thaumaturgy complexities, Resources costs, etc. And you need to keep a careful eye on stunts and power.
It would be easier and generally better to use the big numbers. And I can't see much of a downside to it.
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Because the system handles a guy with skill 3 and weapon: 2 attacking a guy with skill 2 a whole lot better than it handles a guy with skill 19 and weapon 15 attacking a guy with skill 17.
I think the real trick is to have everyone at the table clearly understand what amount of 'scaling' is involved.
For example, if Harry wakes up one morning, looks out over his ravaged garden, and says, "Those rabbits have eaten my produce for the last time! I'm going down into the lab to whip up some thaumaturgy to exterminate them!" Is this something that you really need complex thaumaturgy rules for? And in the divine scale game, it's the same thing with (families / tribes / nations) of people who have offended you lately.
So, here's a slightly more complex writeup:
Demi-god level game
8 refresh, 30 skill points.
1
Your characters operate at the 'minor god' level. When compared to 'mortal' scale characters, you are assumed to have roughly +5 skill levels, appropriate supernatural (strength, toughness, etc) powers.
Note that any equipment you carry will need to be similarly scaled. For example, wearing a bullet resistant vest will not provide any additional protection in demi-god scale combat, no more than wearing that awesome costume armor made out of tin foil and cardboard would protect you at the human scale.
In general, all mortal equipment (guns, swords, armor, etc) doesn't provide a bonus in the demi-god scale.
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God-like will
You are able to effect reality via the direct application or your will, in ways mortals can't. You can use discipline or conviction to make maneuvers and declarations. The power limit of these maneuvers and declarations can be assumed to be roughly power 5-7 evocation or thaumatrugy, on the mortal scale.
Larger and more powerful applications of your will require paying points for sponsored magic, evocation, thaumatrugy, etc
So, some sample goon squads (at demi-god scale)
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Posse of (powerful) black court vampires:
skills most relevant skills at Fair (+2)
Powers:
gaseous form
Stress: OOO
any application of their catch takes them out automatically
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(Powerful) Wardens of the White council
Powers:
The ability to make a variety of attacks, defenses, and maneuvers based on discipline. When used to attack, their evocations have a weapon value of 2.
Skills:
+2 Discipline, conviction
+1 weapons, athletics
Stress: OO
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I don't think that the system has any problem handling big numbers, really. The only thing that really changes is that consequences become steadily less valuable, and that characters need steadily higher levels of Toughness to avoid being splattered. The former is easily fixed, and the latter is not a bad thing.
Accuracy 19 weapon 15 against defence 17 armour 13 is actually identical to accuracy 3 weapon 2 against defence 1 armour 0, by the way.
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I like the idea of setting a stronger baseline.
Inhuman or Supernatural everything (I'd probably go with inhuman, but it depends on how powerful you want them to be).
Superb base for skills (so you're top tier basically everything right out of the gate) with a cap at Legendary. I'd probably give a lot less skill points though.
I like the idea of being able to make maneuvers and declarations via will. I'd also go with a magic power that gives you two domains (like cold and despair). Working on fleshing that out. I'm thinking -6 refresh minimum.
This would be for the lower end of the scale (not actual gods, but becoming gods, like Fey Ladies, Hercules, etc). Build from there.
I favor a lower power game though.
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The main problem I have with high power games is that manouvers on yourself and allies become too easy. I've been trying to work on house rules to fix this, but I haven't come up with anything so far.
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About the stronger baseline: pretty sure that Superb is too high. But free Inhuman powers sound like a good idea to me.
About maneuvers: Three ideas:
1. All maneuvers more-or-less automatically succeed. Some of them give two aspects.
2. Record the strength of each maneuver. If the strength of a maneuver is more than X less than the roll it would be invoked to boost, it can't be invoked.
3. No navel-gazing maneuvers. All maneuvers are opposed.
About the Faerie Ladies: I really don't think that they're much stronger then the Senior Council, actually. They may even be weaker then them.
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3. Self-Sponsored Magic.
4. The ability to take (lots of) Sponsor debt for all kinds of different things.
I'm playing a (baby, relatively) god in a superhero game with the Fate system, I was wondering how exactly you would stat those two?
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3. It's just Sponsored Magic, but the compels come from an internal force instead of an external one. I figure that you could use standard Sponsored Magic mechanics without any trouble.
4. Any time you could spend a FP, you can take a point of debt instead for the same effect. Would probably carry thematic limitations; maybe it'd only work on High Concept invocations. Not sure how much it should cost.
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3. It's just Sponsored Magic, but the compels come from an internal force instead of an external one. I figure that you could use standard Sponsored Magic mechanics without any trouble.
4. Any time you could spend a FP, you can take a point of debt instead for the same effect. Would probably carry thematic limitations; maybe it'd only work on High Concept invocations. Not sure how much it should cost.
3: agreed. Got a PC using this in my game, and it works just fine. (Edit: though I'll admit that part of the reason it works is that the player has discovered that I have no qualms about doing horrible things with compels, and is thus suitably wary of racking up too much sponsor debt...)
4: Hm. No more than -1 cost, I'd think; it's really just an alternative version of demonic co-pilot. Possibly -0; I mean, it's not like you're getting a free lunch anywhere - and there are a number of other examples where a PC is allowed to "borrow" fate points that they don't have. (The two examples that spring to mind are: temporary powers when you're out of fate points, and boosting the power of a potion.)
I could easily see this as being rolled in as part of a Sponsored Magic, actually; a number of the more narrow ones seem to offer extra bonuses of some kind, and this sort of thing could fit right in.
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The GM seems okay with me taking it as a -1 increase to Sponsored Magic. Thank you both.