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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Discipol on October 27, 2011, 02:45:44 PM
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Greetings, I was wondering if making an intimidation check, say, a dragon roaring, would be a aoe attack (-2) or one would need a stunt for something like this.
If it can be sprayed, it wouldn't be fair, because when spraying, the weapon damage stays the same with the attack being divided.
Also that pesky common sense comes to mind...
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A stunt, if not Incite Emotion: Fear (and possibly Awe) with a multiple target upgrade, would likely be appropriate.
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Maybe use the public speaking rules?
Probably tack on a -2 penalty for fairness's sake. But I don't think a stunt should be required, since anyone can talk to a crowd.
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That is what I was thinking too. where is this "speaking to crowd" thing?
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I think it might be one of the trappings of Performance. IIRC, Performance modifies whatever other skill you use.
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Nah, not interested in skill modification. It was more like a dragon rawring scaring the shit out of everyone.
Now, it is stated that I could create a scene aspect, something like "Frightful Presence" but my intention was a mental attack vs all people in a zone, including allies, but excluding myself. I have nothing against friendlyfire if it means winning.
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incite emotion: at range, zone wide
I'd have it place aspects only.
As in another thread, i think mental damage is nasty... Plus you add that to a bad ass dragon... thats just ugly.
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yeah but that would be supernatural
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yeah but that would be supernatural
It's true. But it *is* a dragon, after all. Dragons are so supernaturally badass that if they say a little of your name, you can feel it. Adding an Incite Emotion effect to reflect this preternatural strength of presence and intimidation isn't that big of a stretch. I might even key it off of Conviction.
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call it Clint Eastwood then :) but seriously, I don't consider it a "stunt" to talk to a crowd, but I do consider the -2 fair penalty for "addressing" to several people.
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-2 to make it zonewide would be in keeping with other forms of attack.
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-2 for zone effects seems to be how it generally works, yeah. But zone effects have the disadvantage of menacing both allies and enemies - including yourself if you're in the affected zone. If you wanted to get rid of that, I'd probably ask for -3, maybe -4.
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IIRC, there is a stunt that gives a bonus for specifically addressing a crowd that you might consider giving to a dragon, if you wanted to go that route. In the one shot, "Night Fears," the Changeling pre-gen character had said stunt. Believe it was called Playing to the Crowd. Though, as the others have stated, a full-fledged dragon is a plot device like no other. The one that Harry met knew only his first and last name and forced him to his knees by simply flexing his metaphysical muscles.
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I didn't mean just have Performance modify it. I meant give a -2 penalty and hit a zone, then apply whatever rules there are for public speaking. Which if I recall correctly include Performance modifying the active skill.
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I agree hitting both allies and enemies, but not self. Scaring yourself is silly.
Again, don't regard the sources as a dragon, it could be anything. In the dresden rpg it doesn't matter at all.
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Intimidation doesn't grant you the ability to do a mental attack except in special circumstances. Iirc the example given is an abusive parent with their child. It also mentions buying a stunt allowing you to torture someone and do mental damage that way. Roaring at someone would be social damage.
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fear being social stress? Can you give me 4 examples of consequences, of each level, of social consequences due to intimidation?
I can give you for mental: Shaken, Scared, Frightened, Terrified. What other skill produces such consequences? Excluding magic sources. Rapport no, Deceit no...
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fear being social stress? Can you give me 4 examples of consequences, of each level, of social consequences due to intimidation?
I can give you for mental: Shaken, Scared, Frightened, Terrified. What other skill produces such consequences? Excluding magic sources. Rapport no, Deceit no...
Not "Fear" being Social Stress.
Intimidation dealing social Stress.
Here are some consequences of Intimidation being used to scare someone.
Hesitant, Submissive,"Publicly Humiliated" , "A Cowards Reputation"
Intimidation can also be used to make someone angry instead of scared
Annoyed, Angry, Enraged, "Eternal Hatred"
All those are Social Consequences, not Mental ones.
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Shaken, Scared, Frightened, Terrified work for social too. You're scared, and those around you see that you're scared.
Anyways, I'd allow an area of effect social attack at a -2. Trying to sway groups is pretty tricky otherwise.
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OK, but still, fear is mental, embarrassment is social. I suppose shitting your pants due to fear would be social, but fear triggering survival instinct to just run is mental. I have no problem with any of the three social defenses to counter this, but a roaring dragon would be meant as the "bully" part.
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All of your examples could easily be used as social consequences.
Additionally deceit could easily be used to scare someone. "The Reds have your daughter!" or whatever random lie would terrify your opponent could result in a 'scared' consequence.
There are a couple of problems with your interpretation.
1. It requires us to completely ignore the RAW about mental damage.
2. It would give the pc either 3 or 3.5 points worth of incite emotion(fear) for no refresh.
A. Incite Emotion(1) the half comes from not recalling of the initial power lets you cause mental stress at weapon 0 or if you would need the upgrade which automatically boosts it to weapon 2.
B. At Range(1)
C. Emotion Burst(1) -2 zone wide attack
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yeah but you can't detect it without special means. Its meant to go along with white emotional vampires. Also intimidation has no weapon damage. If I had incite emotion I could use it and nobody be aware. Reminds me of a white vampire on greed, being a lawyer and using his powers in the court room.
Intimidation is a very obvious thing.
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Intimidation being obvious doesn't negate the value of 3 refresh. If you want the effects of a power, then the power needs to be paid for.
Frankly I wouldn't stress about it. If you take someone out with an overwhelming social attack it is still a take out. Peeing their pants, fleeing, passing out are all on the table as possible options.
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This is true, but discipline is for mental, social defenses are quite a few! And again, pure intimidation has no weapon damage.
Thank you all for your input.
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You are welcome.
Ps. Feel free to thank me by not hitting me with Frank's +9 intimidation (ouch!)
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Heaven forbid!
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Fear is DEFINITELY social... the reason WCVamps get to do mental is because they're actually nibbling on the target's psyche/chi through the emotion as a conduit. The emotion doesn't cause the damage, the WCVamp feeding does.
Even when they're using Incite Emotion's upgraded version (which does do Mental), they're going about it differently than your dragon, or clint eastwood... they're still digging around in the target's psyche to create serious lasting emotional states.
Intimidate is a social skill, so it should primarily do (90% of the time or more) social damage.
In rare cases, you can use Fists or Weaponry to deal social (Disgracing the target rather than defeating them) but it takes specific storytelling to manage. 90% of the time or more, they deal physical stress because they're physical skills.
Intimidate and Deceit and other social skills can, similarly, once in a while lead to mental or physical stress, but it should be WAY rare, and require either a power or specific storytelling (or both) to manage... like others have said, repeated incidents that it leaves a lasting mental disorder, as can extremes or powers... the rest of the time, I think of emotional states as social (they certainly have the bulk of their effects and related compels in the arena of the social), and mental is reserved for mental disorders.
RAW backs me up here... read YS216, it specifically mentions Intimidation as the core trait for SOCIAL attacks. It further lists several Social Consequences that sound a LOT like emotional states (specifically Stressed Out, Crappy Mood, Nervous, Edgy, and Guilt-Ridden).
As other have said, the section on mental conflicts immediately after stresses that it should be very very rare to do direct mental stress to a target without special circumstances (like a relationship with the target that lets you hone in on their deepest nightmares) or stunts/powers.
Also remember- what are you trying to accomplish? Recovery from any consequence requires an in-game justification. Are you trying to scare them off (so once they get away, and take a minute to breath, they can start recovering from any consequences), or leave them in need of a therapist? If you're genuinely convinced that what you're doing is capable of driving them to needing therapy... then mental is acceptable to me. Otherwise, just let it be social, and be done.
As for social defenses being rare... hardly. There are more social skills with built-in defense trappings than there are mental and physical combined. If you find social defenses are rare in your group, that's on your players and GM for choosing to completely ignore social defense.
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OK then, social it is, but my original question was, is -2 good to make it a zonewide attack that even has friendly fire.
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Absolutely. Even if it isn't perfectly RAW, it does fit in with all the similar rulesets for zones.
I'd assume Intimidate as a Zone wouldn't affect the user... or at least, not much. "Ooh... shivers. Sometimes, I think I even scare myself!"
Your allies on the other hand... it makes sense they'd be affected or a little creeped out, no matter how well they know you. If you use it often enough- they might get used to it, but that's up to the GM.
If you want it to be more selective, -3 would be fair, IMO.