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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Save_vs_DM on July 27, 2011, 10:09:50 AM
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Long story short, I have a player who feels like he was unfairly punished for needing to take Bless This House with his Champion of God. And I admit that I think he has a point. While it has come in handy once in a blue moon, when stacked up against The Sight, Beast Change, Echoes of the Beast, or just about any other -1 power it does seem rather lackluster. Is there something that I'm missing here? Maybe I'm not giving him enough chances to use it?
My personal feeling is to either make it a [-0] value power or to give it another little boost. Maybe letting him treat buildings without a Threshold as having a Threshold of 2? Anyone have any other suggestions?
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It's worth noting Bless My House works everywhere the character goes - if there's a weak threshold he can strengthen it. So I think it's priced fairly.
That said, I wouldn't get too tied to the templates. If he wants a Champion without the Bless My House power, why not? The templates are ideas and starting points, don't let them be limitations!
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Seams easy to me.
I'd simply assume that every building with a literal threshold has a metaphysical threshold as well. It just might be very very faint. I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to raise the threshold of a place of business from 0 to +2 in these cases.
If you are taking shelter in a cave, now that is a horse of a different color. In this case there is no literal threshold and the bonus shouldn't apply.
That said I don't think the power is overpriced. It's darn good actually if you think of it, just not in every imaginable situation and that holds true for most of the -1 powers.
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I think part of the problem for this game is that it takes place outside far more often than it takes place inside. Like entire sessions have gone by without him even having a fair chance to use it. And I suppose you could drop the power, but it does feel like something that should come up sometimes.
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I think part of the problem for this game is that it takes place outside far more often than it takes place inside. Like entire sessions have gone by without him even having a fair chance to use it. And I suppose you could drop the power, but it does feel like something that should come up sometimes.
I don't know dude. Just because something doesn't come into play much it isn't looses it's place in the game. I'm not going to tell you what to do. It's totally ok to just drop the power out of the template. I'm just saying that it's surely not a -0 Power as it is. It's not like soulgaze that you get for free when you already have picked up the sight. Or Cassandras Tears that has serious drawbacks attached to it.
Try to see it as an opportunity where you can make the PC shine and put him in the spotlight once in a while. As a GM create a scene where it comes into play. That's my advice.
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I like the power but if it dose not come up enough for your tastes you could beef it up so that a character with it carries around a threshold with him of +2 all the time which would provide a real bonus against fae, spirit and demons outside of an abode.
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Try to see it as an opportunity where you can make the PC shine and put him in the spotlight once in a while. As a GM create a scene where it comes into play. That's my advice.
What he said.
It's the same as if the player had paid a lot of points into a skill - what does that say? That the skill is important to his character concept, and he'd like to have it come into play. Same with a power. Throw enough scenes in that let that power be a difference maker, and things will work themselves out.
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A power is only as powerful as the plot.
For instance, if a character has mythic speed but only gets hit with eath/gravity evocations targetting their endurance, that power is useless.
I think it is the GM's job to make every power a character have be worthwhile and interesting.
Plus, if I have a player who wants a power but does not want to take the prerequisite power, I will allow him to mix and match.
The "RAW" is a guideline. Not a must-have.
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Good points all around. I think part of the trouble is that the character was a Park Ranger before getting called to Serve, so the concept is kind of pulling in two directions at once. And maybe I'm being too stingy about thresholds, but most of their big indoor battles have taken place in public builds, which by the book don't really have Thresholds. I have let him treat buildings as having a 0 Threshold before and he seemed to lack that, which is why I asked about this.
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Good points all around. I think part of the trouble is that the character was a Park Ranger before getting called to Serve, so the concept is kind of pulling in two directions at once. And maybe I'm being too stingy about thresholds, but most of their big indoor battles have taken place in public builds, which by the book don't really have Thresholds. I have let him treat buildings as having a 0 Threshold before and he seemed to lack that, which is why I asked about this.
A few points of correction here. Per YS187, Bless This House give a boost of +2 to any place with a Threshold, assuming the player's Conviction is higher than the Threshold rating of the place. This power is also stackable with others having the same power at the same place.
Now, per the rules on Thresholds from YS230-231, the most commonly thought of definition of a Threshold is the one which is part of a 'home' but it is NOT the only definition of a Threshold. Public buildings (office buildings, hotels, etc) tend to have Mediocre (+0) Thresholds from YS231, which effectively means the Threshold provides no impedance to supernatural energy. However, a character with Bless This House and a Conviction of at least Average (+1) would immediately cause any public building they were in to have a Threshold of Fair (+2) just by being present. If the character were to have a Conviction of Great (+4) or higher and be in an 'average' church of other similar building of worship/faith, the Threshold would immediately climb from a default Good (+3) Threshold for an 'average' church up to a Threshold of Superb (+5).
Other potential examples of Thresholds where a player might find Bless This House useful include the Threshold of a stream. If there was some supernatural nasty on one side of a stream, and the character was on the other side/bank of the stream, the presence of the character with Bless This House again automatically 'improves' the Threshold of the stream as long as the character's Conviction is higher than the Threshold value of the stream. I would expect a Park Ranger to be places where there are streams/running water. Lastly, from Bob's sidebar on the left-hand side of YS230, magical circles could be considered Thresholds. With that in mind, all a character with Bless This House would need is a drop of blood, a piece of chalk, a bag of salt, or something else to 'draw' a circle with and the circle would pretty much automatically get a +2 boost to strength. Given the sort of players I have, even at convention games, any characters who are considered 'in the know' are always running around with a piece of chalk, salt, iron filings and a knife in a pocket or bag. Therefore, such a circle could be drawn by the character virtually anywhere and on an as-needed basis. Not too weak a power from my perspective.
-Cheers
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Good points all around. I think part of the trouble is that the character was a Park Ranger before getting called to Serve, so the concept is kind of pulling in two directions at once. And maybe I'm being too stingy about thresholds, but most of their big indoor battles have taken place in public builds, which by the book don't really have Thresholds. I have let him treat buildings as having a 0 Threshold before and he seemed to lack that, which is why I asked about this.
I could also see a Park Ranger type with that power having 'within the light of my campfire' as a 0 threshold to build off of.
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I could also see a Park Ranger type with that power having 'within the light of my campfire' as a 0 threshold to build off of.
The potential issue I would have here is just how much of a metaphysical barrier a campfire would present...
Virtually all of the other Thresholds (apart from the day/night transition) have some form of actual, physical barrier. Homes and buildings have the walls, floors, ceilings and roof. A stream physically divides two pieces of land. A cemetery has an enclosing fence or wall. While a campfire casts out heat and light, unless you have an enormous (think extra large super-sized bonfire) fire or are standing within the fire or fire circle, there is no real way to have the campfire be between you and the supernatural nasty, unless you're able to maintain a position on the opposite side of the campfire.
-Cheers
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What about a campsite, rather than just a campfire, as being bounded by a threshold? Would that work?
EDIT: Or if that sounds like it's stretching the bounds of what a Threshold should be on its own, what about a stunt that lets one do so?
Home Is Where The Heart Is: Everyone knows what makes a home isn't a the physical structure, but the feelings and sentiment about the place. This stunt allows someone to invest enough emotional significance to any building or demarcated area they are curently residing at to grant it a Threshold of at least 1. Like any threshold, it can be improved by other factors such as time, the number of people sharing the place, Bless This House, etc.
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1) If you know you have a useful, but limited power, it behooves you to plan around taking advantage of that power. If he can lock bad guys out of homes, then he should retreat to a home when he's in trouble.
2) It is somewhat incumbent upon the game master to provide opportunities for characters to shine. If you have Aquatic and have an adventure in a desert, or Bless This House and never go inside, or have Guns +5 and only fight enemies with Physical Immunity against bullets, then yes, the resources you allocated to being good at those things will have been wasted.
3) I don't mind someone whose concept is centered around being an outdoorsy type having some modification to an indoor power to make it more useful in his particular wheel(non)house. Maybe he has Bless This Camp?
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The potential issue I would have here is just how much of a metaphysical barrier a campfire would present...
Virtually all of the other Thresholds (apart from the day/night transition) have some form of actual, physical barrier. Homes and buildings have the walls, floors, ceilings and roof. A stream physically divides two pieces of land. A cemetery has an enclosing fence or wall. While a campfire casts out heat and light, unless you have an enormous (think extra large super-sized bonfire) fire or are standing within the fire or fire circle, there is no real way to have the campfire be between you and the supernatural nasty, unless you're able to maintain a position on the opposite side of the campfire.
-Cheers
I think the threshold between the light and dark that the campfire creates is a neat way to set up a camp threshold. In many stories you hear of creatures just outside the light of the fire...warded by the light. So the area of your threshold is the radius of the light.
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Or, draw a larger circle around the campsite and use it to make a threshold for the night?
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I think the threshold between the light and dark that the campfire creates is a neat way to set up a camp threshold. In many stories you hear of creatures just outside the light of the fire...warded by the light. So the area of your threshold is the radius of the light.
Yeah. the campfire warding off the darkness and creating warmth and shelter is one of the oldest things we as humanity have. I don't think it would be worth much of anything on its own, but I would let the metaphysical symbolism of that work with Bless This House.
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Campfires seem to be a great idea.
Hunting lodges, longhouses, cabins, and trailers could work as well. A stretch could be a tent also, but... it lacks symbolism of the campfire idea and isn't permanent so...thats a big stretch.
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Yeah. the campfire warding off the darkness and creating warmth and shelter is one of the oldest things we as humanity have. I don't think it would be worth much of anything on its own, but I would let the metaphysical symbolism of that work with Bless This House.
From my perspective (and this comes from someone who has spent many a night with others around a campfire...) a campfire would not really 'count' as a Threshold.
From both canon and RAW, one of the Thresholds is the transition from night into day (or vice versa), darkness transitioning into light is not one of the mentioned Thresholds. Midnight and Midday are also Thresholds, depending on who/what is involved. There is a reference in Changes that midday is a point of transition for the Unseelie Court, with True Seemings transforming back to their original forms at this time. There is also the inference that midnight is a similar time for the Seelie Court. These points of metaphysical transition seem to act as Thresholds vs. Seelie or Unseelie magic, depending on which time is involved, and there is no mention or requirement that actual darkness or light is required. The same also applies for the transition between day and night, or night and day. Of course exposure to direct sunlight from a rising sun has been mentioned as having a greater impact upon the weakening of latent spells like Wards, even things not exposed to daylight get progressively weaker as days keep transitioning.
One of the other often mentioned factors involving Thresholds, is a physical structure or barrier, along with the intent of the builder or builders if the structure is artificial. Namely the structure like a building keeping people, things and the weather 'out', or a wall or fencing to keep things 'in'. A campfire provides no such structure.
Lastly, there is the nature of the shelter our forebearers took around campfires. Such fires provided warm from cold environments as well as a means to cook food. Animals tended to give campfires a wide berth because their only other experiences with fire would be wild fires, also the sights, sounds and smells coming from around a campfire would all include humans, an apex predator. Now animals, even predatory ones like bears, wolves and big cats do not normally prey upon people, instead considering people a threat. A supernatural nasty on the other hand might look at people (particularly en masse) as a potential threat, but also as 'food'. With that in mind, while fire is a potential supernatural 'cleanser' a campfire might act as more of a beacon to supernatural predators, a supernatural equivalent to billboard sign saying, 'Eat here..."
Of course go with whatever works for your own game.
-Cheers
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With that in mind, while fire is a potential supernatural 'cleanser' a campfire might act as more of a beacon to supernatural predators, a supernatural equivalent to billboard sign saying, 'Eat here..."
Unless the area lit by the billboard is literally seeded with supernatural equivalent of IEDs that is empowered by Bless This House. Thus while a mundane campfire may be act as a beacon to supernatural predators, a campfire reinforced by Bless This House might act more as a warning light to keep away, a supernatural equivlanet of a billboard sign saying, "Danger keep clear..."
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Too bad the nasties won't know what it says unless they try to cross... Or have a supernatural sense for such things...
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Very good points, all of you. The point about magic circles is the most helpful and I think that I've been a bit too limited on what exactly a threshold entails. Mostly I think I've taken Harry's words in the books as a bit too literal. Now that I understand the power a bit more (thanks Todjaeger) I don't feel like the power is undercosted nearly as much. I just need to show the player how to use a bit more wisely and perhaps give it a few more chances to shine.