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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Quantus on July 14, 2011, 05:09:40 PM

Title: Power...
Post by: Quantus on July 14, 2011, 05:09:40 PM
Ive got a wipp (Work In Perpetual Progress) going and was looking for some general help.  

The question of the hour is this:   What different forms of power are there in the world?  Power in this sense is anything that lets you impose you will on the world around you.  These are what I came up with, anything else you can think of?

Physical - "Im stronger than you."  A primary basis for power in more feudal times.  
Financial - The gold standard of power. Literally.
Technological - "I have better stuff than you" (weapons, tech, etc)
Information - "I know something you don't know."
Social - Power based on others who will listen to you.  Could be political, business, general fame, etc.

Deceit - power through convincing falsehood (Thanks Vryce)
Destruction - Power over things via the ability to destroy them. 
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Vryce on July 14, 2011, 05:20:18 PM
I think you have hit all the major ones,
the only other thing i could think of is not quite a power but it can be used to impose your will on the world around you.

Deceit.

physical deceit:  I have the bigger army(Bluff)
Financial: i look like a millon bucks(just looking the part gets you in the door.)
technological: i steal, hack, ect... you tech.
Information: Blackmail
Social: conmen

just a thought
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Quantus on July 14, 2011, 06:27:45 PM
Good call, it definitely applies.  Though Falsehoods will have a whole extra level to them than the others, as they literally damage the fabric of reality.  Ill also add a Destruction category, as having the ability to destroy something is almost as good as having it yourself, sometimes.


Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Vryce on July 14, 2011, 06:30:36 PM
in that case creation can be a power. 

There is a lot of power in the make of a life.
could call it love
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Quantus on July 14, 2011, 06:44:08 PM
Metaphysically and spiritually I agree with you, but Im not sure how it would be an avenue to imposing will/change on the world around you, at least in any way that wouldn't qualify as a family version of Social, Technological, or maybe Informational Power.  Deceit works as all versions of The Con; Destruction works mostly through the threat (ie the man who can destroy the world rules the world).  But the act of creation does not in and of itself gain you anything; rather its what you create that can gain you power, depending on what it is. 
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Vryce on July 14, 2011, 06:49:43 PM
Depends on your writing and direction.

A hive type mosters would have creation as a force a power.  those with the most people win.

then there taking control of another force.  love taking control of the destruction force...  i love my mom, you called her a name now i punch you in the face.

bad example im at work and all, but you can kind of see it... kind of... ok maybe not
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: LizW65 on July 14, 2011, 09:53:58 PM
How about emotional power?  Sex, love, famillial ties, etc.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on July 14, 2011, 11:07:08 PM
How about emotional power?  Sex, love, famillial ties, etc.

My question here would be, how much do you want this power to be an objective thing, and how much inside people's heads ?
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Nickeris86 on July 14, 2011, 11:32:22 PM
Are you looking for just real world power categories or are there also mystical ones as well.

as for some real world powers there are a few i can think of that could be considered part of one of those already mentioned but i think that they could also work well on their own.

Fear: There are some people that just scare the hell out of people for no good reason.

Subterfuge: I don't mean telling lies but more along the line of how Martin is just too boring. Some people just have a gift (?) for going unnoticed through society.

Wisdom: Some people just have more street smarts rather than book smarts

IQ: Just plain smarter than everyone else.

Perception: There are those that are just really good at noticing things that no one else would and utilizing that to their advantage.

Skill: Most people have something they are really good at naturally with little to no effort.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: OZ on July 15, 2011, 01:58:24 AM
This is somewhat vague to me. If you are talking armies or families, power might be  "we reproduce much more quickly than you so we can overun you or replace our fallen more quickly than you." Endurance can also allow you to impose your will on the world around you. An example of this could be people who spend their entire lifetime working on some immense project. They change their world only a little at a time but it adds up.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Quantus on July 22, 2011, 02:16:08 PM
Sorry, didn't get back to the thread as fast as I intended. 

Some general background on the world/story:  the short explanation (which only makes sense to you guys who i know have read dresden), imagine all those thaumaturgical connections harry's always talking about, but in this case they are actually responsible for creation itself; and creation isn't an accident or even a divine plan persay, its a conspiracy.  Humans are unique among creation in that they can naturally create these connections, which is teh real meaning of 'created in Gods image'. And its the reason he rested on day #7, because he wanted to sit back and see what we'd do.  The cosmology pulls heavily from Zoroastrian mythos, along with various others that are based/influenced by it (such as christianity).  So for example the world wasn't always round, that was an idea that was made popular specifically to unify the geography of the lands and to close the access from the Outside by convincing everyone there was no Outside; well, other than the sky/Heavens, which are innately harder to reach (yay Tower of Babel).   These connections work similarly to molecular connection in that it takes energy to create, and releases energy when destroyed.  Now there is plenty of mystical/supernatural stuff going on but in most cases it still follows the same rules/framework of "accepted reality" at least in a qualitative sense. 


For the purposes of this thread Im thinking Power as in "Paths to Power".  Think something that could become a villain's world domination scheme.  Things like creation, while powerful, are more means to the end, whereas Money would be the end goal itself, as it is a natural lever by which you can affect change.  Destruction would normally be like creation in that its a means only, but the threat of destruction can be a powerful lever all on its own, whereas Creation must be more a vector to one of the others if it is to affect any real change. 


I could go on and on, but does that make it any clearer?
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Paynesgrey on July 22, 2011, 02:49:00 PM
Resources, as in access to and/or the ability to limit the access of others to resources.  It can cover natural resources, industrial capability, information access, etc.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Quantus on July 22, 2011, 02:59:29 PM
Resources, as in access to and/or the ability to limit the access of others to resources.  It can cover natural resources, industrial capability, information access, etc.
Interesting.  A less abstracted form of Financial Power (ie Money), but I like the idea of making them separate.  "The Spice must Flow"  :D
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Orbweaver on July 25, 2011, 03:55:09 AM
I suppose it depends on what sources you want and what genre you're writing in.

A lot of UF contains sources of power like Fate, Death, Time, Chaos, etc. Those forces typically manifest as a specific form of energy, which can then be manipulated by a user with the mental capacity and necessary skill level to apply a wide variety of effects. Gard, for example, has a touch of prescience- and is able to choose, almost to a hundred percent accuracy, which warrior will die on the battlefield. She pulls that power from Fate and Perception.

If we're talking about a strictly non-metaphysical level, the sources you listed are excellent. I would add in certain scientific forces and/or principles, though. Things like propulsion, ecological circumstances, etc.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Quantus on July 25, 2011, 02:43:25 PM
its part energies, yes, but mostly Im thinking in terms of War Fronts.  Creation is a conspiracy, but its not an uncontested one.   The "good guys" are the ones trying to build something, and they do it in an organized, Ordered way; while the bad guys (demons torn from the essences of the Ahriman's Dragons) are trying to corrupt and destroy, with the ultimate goal of ending Creation (which they think was never a particularly good idea in the first place).  So for example one aspect of the fight will be in the minds and hearts of the general populace (because the shape of creation is basically defined by consensus) which will be centered around Hollywood, etc. (not geographically, but the industries).
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: comprex on July 25, 2011, 03:05:41 PM
The "good guys" are the ones trying to build something, and they do it in an organized, Ordered way; while the bad guys (demons torn from the essences of the Ahriman's Dragons) are trying to corrupt and destroy, with the ultimate goal of ending Creation (which they think was never a particularly good idea in the first place).

You've made organization an aspect.     The ability to organize could have been seen as a power, and it definitely makes possible all the other powers you list.

Be extra careful: if you make financial Power and resource Power separate you will need an ECON degree to credibly navigate mapping of finance to resources.   Separating the two is nothing other than dropping the gold standard.   In order to do that, and not automatically default to some other standard (a resource,e.g. Spice), you need a very strong state, with long-term stability and effective police.   The financiers in the second scenario become indistinguishable from mechanisms of the state.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Quantus on July 25, 2011, 05:49:21 PM
You've made organization an aspect.     The ability to organize could have been seen as a power, and it definitely makes possible all the other powers you list.
Quote
hmm, true.  But it won't become as big a deal in the sense of an actual power/war front, as the opposition is, as a rule, fundamentally opposed to any lasting organization beyond what is absolutely necessary.  They work more in amorphous cells whenever possible, and rather than cooperate with each other they tend to simply EAT each other and incorporate the useful aspects of the other into themselves.  And when tehy do organize something, they always plant the seeds of its own destruction.  Does that make sense?

Be extra careful: if you make financial Power and resource Power separate you will need an ECON degree to credibly navigate mapping of finance to resources.   Separating the two is nothing other than dropping the gold standard.   In order to do that, and not automatically default to some other standard (a resource,e.g. Spice), you need a very strong state, with long-term stability and effective police.   The financiers in the second scenario become indistinguishable from mechanisms of the state.
You make a good point.  And at the high levels of the financial world, everything really just becomes one type of Commodity or another.  So methinks Financial will be generally encompassed the fight through the concept of Ownership, be it land resources, or the more amorphous but relatively recent idea of Money, as a more immaterial commodity in its own right. There will be some crossover with Information and Technological, but Tech will be more the actual devepment of Science itself.  Einstein was a badass, btw ;)
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: 1eyedjack on July 29, 2011, 08:53:39 PM
Ive got a wipp (Work In Perpetual Progress) going and was looking for some general help.  

The question of the hour is this:   What different forms of power are there in the world?  Power in this sense is anything that lets you impose you will on the world around you.  These are what I came up with, anything else you can think of?

Physical - "Im stronger than you."  A primary basis for power in more feudal times.  
Financial - The gold standard of power. Literally.
Technological - "I have better stuff than you" (weapons, tech, etc)
Information - "I know something you don't know."
Social - Power based on others who will listen to you.  Could be political, business, general fame, etc.

Deceit - power through convincing falsehood (Thanks Vryce)
Destruction - Power over things via the ability to destroy them. 

To clarify, do you mean power over other people or just the general world around you?  After reading all the posts I'm still a little fuzzy on that bit.  I mean, hell just existing changes the world.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Quantus on August 02, 2011, 09:13:31 PM
To clarify, do you mean power over other people or just the general world around you?  After reading all the posts I'm still a little fuzzy on that bit.  I mean, hell just existing changes the world.
Power over the world around you, but with basic principle that the world around you is influenced, and even defined, by the collective opinion of the people in the world. 

Also, the main reason for this particular question was to determine areas/departments for the organization that is behind Creation, and is actively fighting a war to make it happen.  Think of it like a modern war:  there'd be the front line that does the actual physical fighting, but then there's also a whole group devoted to Intelligence, and another that would be shaping popular opinion with Propganda, and yet another that is the R&D dept developing the tools of the others.  Those are more real-world examples than what I have in mind, as the war is being fought on completely different principles, but you get the idea.  Also, they don't have to be hard and fast categories with obvious boudaries; there can and will be areas and situations of overlap.

That clear it up at all, or did i just make it worse?  :P
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: 1eyedjack on August 04, 2011, 05:05:54 AM
Power over the world around you, but with basic principle that the world around you is influenced, and even defined, by the collective opinion of the people in the world. 

Also, the main reason for this particular question was to determine areas/departments for the organization that is behind Creation, and is actively fighting a war to make it happen.  Think of it like a modern war:  there'd be the front line that does the actual physical fighting, but then there's also a whole group devoted to Intelligence, and another that would be shaping popular opinion with Propganda, and yet another that is the R&D dept developing the tools of the others.  Those are more real-world examples than what I have in mind, as the war is being fought on completely different principles, but you get the idea.  Also, they don't have to be hard and fast categories with obvious boudaries; there can and will be areas and situations of overlap.

That clear it up at all, or did i just make it worse?  :P

Crystal.  Sort of.  I think I've got a good handle on the subject but let's see if I'm a blind man who only comprehends a piece of the elephant or the whole thing.

I have an alternate perception on the previous argument for emotional control.  It could possibly go hand in hand with the social/information department of thought non-metaphysical idea.  Art is created to alter perceptions, propaganda, things like that.  Music, art, entertainment, etc.  Art's at least what I interpret from your statement as the primary vehicle for control of opinion. 

It is difficult to listen to "Farewell of Slavianka" and not get swept up in it, even if it is a Russian patriotic song.  Popular music is a way of doing so as well.  A lot of rap songs are about clubbing and so what is popular?  When you hear the theme from Jaws don't you think it was meant to get a response from you?  Action movies wouldn't be the same without those fast and intense musical numbers.

There are all kinds of arts that are made to evoke a response from the audience without being focused on an idea.  Dadaism is a decent example of this at least in what they did with films.  It doesn't have to be propaganda about information but just a pattern of thinking.  Certain pieces of art make you "feel" a certain way.

Here's an example.

Read this spoiler after you've seen a snippet of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeosT_6vG7g&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeosT_6vG7g&feature=related).  You don't have to watch the whole thing (it is pretty strange), but do see up until the man with the gun.  Look at the spoiler early if you want but the effect is better if you don't.

(click to show/hide)

Another example comes from the Romans during their "panem et circenses" era.  You make entertainment and food the extent of moral dilemmas and you have apathetic and shallow citizens who don't give a toss about much else.

Really my point is that creation and emotional control is what it sounds like you're focusing on in the whole Hollywood consensus thing and I think there's some merit to acknowledging the difference between that and just pure information.  Watch a movie, even a romantic comedy and try to focus on what's going on around the camera's focus.

Here's another example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZUOnCbKc8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZUOnCbKc8)  This is a film starring Paul Newman called The Verdict.  This is just the opening, but this shows exactly what I'm talking about.  You're introduced to this character and just from a short section you know a great deal more about him than you would think.  Here's another spoiler and I suggest you watch before reading. 

(click to show/hide)
 

The difference between emotional control and informational control is a somewhat gray area, but my point is that emotional control has a hell of a lot more subtlety and when getting to a person it is hard to have one without the other.  Emotion comes first, information second.

The basic idea was mentioned earlier and danced around but I didn't feel like it got the representation it deserved.

TL:DR
Propaganda is emotional control as well as informational control.


I do have some other concerns though.  Isn't Deceit just an offshoot of information?  I mean if you control what information people have, then deceit is just one of the options you have in exerting that power.  For that matter, creation and destruction seem to refer to ideals rather than a form all their own.  All the powers listed can swing either way on that scale so adding destruction to the list but not creation seems a little odd (you create a lie, you destroy a lie, etc.).  Neither one feels inherently good or evil either. 

Metaphysically and spiritually I agree with you, but Im not sure how it would be an avenue to imposing will/change on the world around you, at least in any way that wouldn't qualify as a family version of Social, Technological, or maybe Informational Power.  Deceit works as all versions of The Con; Destruction works mostly through the threat (ie the man who can destroy the world rules the world).  But the act of creation does not in and of itself gain you anything; rather its what you create that can gain you power, depending on what it is. 

The destruction of the world example seems a tad funky.  Sure there's the threat but carrying it out is really the equivalent of taking your ball and going home.  You aren't playing the game anymore, you broke it.  That and doesn't what you destroy affect what you control?  The same works with creation anyway.  Sure you can destroy the world, but I CAN MAKE ANOTHER ONE!  The man who can make another world isn't exactly exerting the same sort of control as destruction, but they're still playing on the same field. 

The act of destruction in itself gets you no more than creation does.  If no one is around and you destroy something then threats be damned.  For that matter I don't see how a threat is that much different than an offer.  Offering to make a house for a man and threatening to destroy a man's house could both get you the same basic result of that man's cooperation.  Besides, there's all this emphasis in your examples of very straightforward brutish uses of that power and I think that mindset is sort of putting you in a pair of blinders in regards to this subject.  It doesn't feel like this is all about threats from your other posts but there's always the possibility of me having the wrong idea on this. 

Finance seems a bit muddled because having that means you have access to all the others because you can always buy them.  Still, I like the concept of money so I say keep it.

Hopefully that's helpful in some way shape or form or at least keeps the ball rolling in a good direction.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Quantus on August 04, 2011, 01:07:29 PM
Hmm, you make a lot of good points, and your right I think its getting a bit muddled here...   I have a fairly detailed vision of the world's creation, function, and the powers in the world, etc.  but I think I was getting a bit tunnel visioned on the War Effort  aspect of it, and those divisions just may not be as compatible as Id hoped for the role I was wanting them to play.

I did find a more traditional/mythological set of divisions.   Yima (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamshid), who was Ahura Mazdā's (ie . GOD's) first chosen shepherd, who was asked but refused to "to receive [God's] law and bring it to men" and so instead was charged to rule over and nourish the earth, and see that all living things would prosper.  Im thinking this would have been an ascension ritual that Yima refused, but the next shepherd to be chosen (that famous one) was more willing to take up the mantle.  Anyway Yima divided all the peoples into 4 groups: Priests, Warriors, Farmers, and Artisans. (btw, he also grew continents a few times when the world started to get overpopulated by Mankind, which is kinda cool)  I can run with those for the divisions within the Zeta organization, and keep the more esoteric bits less rigidly defined.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: 1eyedjack on August 05, 2011, 01:52:01 AM
Hmm, you make a lot of good points, and your right I think its getting a bit muddled here...   I have a fairly detailed vision of the world's creation, function, and the powers in the world, etc.  but I think I was getting a bit tunnel visioned on the War Effort  aspect of it, and those divisions just may not be as compatible as Id hoped for the role I was wanting them to play.

I did find a more traditional/mythological set of divisions.   Yima (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamshid), who was Ahura Mazdā's (ie . GOD's) first chosen shepherd, who was asked but refused to "to receive [God's] law and bring it to men" and so instead was charged to rule over and nourish the earth, and see that all living things would prosper.  Im thinking this would have been an ascension ritual that Yima refused, but the next shepherd to be chosen (that famous one) was more willing to take up the mantle.  Anyway Yima divided all the peoples into 4 groups: Priests, Warriors, Farmers, and Artisans. (btw, he also grew continents a few times when the world started to get overpopulated by Mankind, which is kinda cool)  I can run with those for the divisions within the Zeta organization, and keep the more esoteric bits less rigidly defined.

History and mythology are always good resources to plunder.  I find it strange that merchants were not included in those groups.  Maybe that's just an Iranian thing.  I'm interested in the idea anyway and how you run with it.  I hope it becomes everything you want it to be.
Title: Re: Power...
Post by: Quantus on August 09, 2011, 12:34:21 PM
Hehe, ya merchants would make sense, but as this legend takes place around the same time they "invented" wine and created new lands from the sea when they ran out of space, maybe the civilizations just hadn't evolved that far yet?