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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Lanodantheon on June 29, 2011, 03:43:17 PM
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Rather than discuss story ideas that could ruin other people's plans, I wanted to discuss some writing craft that can get quite advanced, Genre. Specifically Hybrid genres. When I through that word Genre around, I specifically refer to the common themes, structures, character archetypes, aesthetics and such that codify a group of artistic works.
Genres are not necessary or accurate things, but they can be a helpful guide when planning a story. Genres are formulas that follow a cycle...but The Genre Cycle is a really advanced thing that is way ahead of this topic.
Every Genre has expectations in terms of characters, settings, plots, etc. Merging two of them together is both the art of making something distinctive while as a science must balance the expectations of both genres.
In particular, I'm working on a story that I can best describe to myself and others as a Swords & Sorcery-Western. I'm not trying to break new ground with this, just spin a good yarn and I need some help with it. And put The Gunslinger by Stephen King out of your mind, because I'm not trying to copy a series of books I haven't read and couldn't get into.
To be more specific, by Swords & Sorcery I mean, "Wizards slinging around Fireballs and Lightning Bolts while Swordsman make with massive swordfights again st all manner of monster, evil person and/or Godlike entity" in a pseudo-medieval setting of High Fantasy. By Western I mean, "The iconography, themes, stories and characters of the Romantic notion of The American Old West" and because of my personal tastes, it's not a real Western until you kill more men then Cecil B. DeMille.
Note: In Cinema studies of Genre, the American Western is interchangeable with the Japanese Samurai films, specifically the old-fashioned period pieces(Jidaigeki) and the Chanbara sub-genre.
The issues I've been having have been, well guns. I have no problem with Guns in High Fantasy. But, I want melee combat to still be strong. I want sword fights and people slinging Magic to be a common plot element. But, The Western is kind of the natural environ for the Gun. "The Gun won The West" as they say. Plus, Guns relate to the Ideology of the Western Genre in that it represents individual Freedom, etc, etc(Film Theory stuff). And, one the classic Western yarns is the wronged boy who picks up a gun to become a man.
The other issue is that my Main Character is a Wizard of ill-repute and I wonder if I want him to just sling spells, carry a gun AND Sling spells OR carry a gun to sling spells. The setting is also looking to include Da Vinci-inspired Magical Artifices such as advanced Crossbows as well, but I'm not warm to the idea of having a Crossbow stand in for a Gun.
The issues I have boil down to 2 questions:
1. Can you have a self-defined "Swords & Sorcery-Western" story without Firearms of any kind or is the self-description of a "Western" require Firearms to be present? Would you as a reader be let down by picking up a story describing itself as a Western without any guns or gunplay in it or could you be satisfied with it being replaced with Chanbara-style swordfights?
The main question though is thus:
2. What options are there to do the classic Western trope of the Fast Draw at High Noon with a Main character is a Wizard of Ill-repute, not a Swordsman? Similarly, there's the classic scene from a Fistful of Dollars/Yojimbo where the Man With No Name proves how badass he is by killing a bunch of guys in a matter of moments in a fast draw. How could you do that iconic scene with a Wizard other than *Raise hand* *Fireball* *Done*?
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1. Fun combo, but it sounds like you'd have to market it as a fantasy. Those western guys are quite a unique group of readers and this would throw them off. If they climb on the wagon later, I think that would be cool. I mean, think of Firefly. Putting in horses and western clothes was not going to bring in the 'western' genre in my opinion. Even the soon to be released Aliens and Cowboys isn't going to bring in the true 'western' folk.
2. Refer to any of Harry's battles, but the one on Wrigley with the Red Court Vamp comes immediately to mind. A good exercise for you would be to watch Fistful of Dollars and simply rewrite it screen by screen as a wizard battle--it will read, well see, the same I would think. Note that I said 'exercise' not include as part of your writing. Another fun one to re-write as an exercise would be the James Marsters gun fight in the Torchwood series. Those should give you a comfort level at finding the details between 'fireball' and 'done'. LOL Just a reminder to not over power your main character or it isn't any fun to read.
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First I want to say like the idea, and I totally get where you are coming from on the questions and if it can work.
I was working on something similar. The idea was what would happen if magic had always been around and it was modern day. I like the idea of trying to explain what was item of technology would never have been made and what could have happened if we had the ability to sling energy around.
So when you ask your questions here is what I had sitting already in the back of my head.
1) Can you have a self-defined "Swords & Sorcery-Western" story without Firearms of any kind or is the self-description of a "Western" require Firearms to be present? Would you as a reader be let down by picking up a story describing itself as a Western without any guns or gunplay in it or could you be satisfied with it being replaced with Chanbara-style swordfights?
I would say yes, and here is some way. Why was the firearm created. To give a weapon to a solider that could penetrate armor/shield and was relatively easy to train with. Its why we stopped wearing mass amount of metal armor, well until our tech. got good enough that we understood the way bullets moved and Kevlar was invented. So in your world would a gun ever be needed if you had wizards running around. Could an Artificer simply have created a wand/rod or other type of weapon that the mundane could use and act like a gun. Lots of books and movies bring up wand duals, and I think this would work great in a western setting.
Then you brought up the melee combat and still have strong Gun/wand play. Ways to keep this going, would be to find a reason why it is. Could be as easy as wizards or talisman can put of a shield that stops the wand energy from getting to them, but it is a lot harder to stop a sword in the gut. Or limited amount of charges in the Wand/Gun. If you have a wizard that can stop a few blasts of gun or wand fire, might be nice to have a sturdy sword as a back up. Or spell eaters, maybe a race or group of people that are like an anti-mage or can absorb energy of spells thrown at them but a nice dagger to the back works well. Lots of ideas on that reason.
2) What options are there to do the classic Western trope of the Fast Draw at High Noon with a Main character is a Wizard of Ill-repute, not a Swordsman? Similarly, there's the classic scene from a Fistful of Dollars/Yojimbo where the Man With No Name proves how badass he is by killing a bunch of guys in a matter of moments in a fast draw. How could you do that iconic scene with a Wizard other than *Raise hand* *Fireball* *Done*?
I talked about wizards wand dueling above, I think this would just take it to the next level. I see spell slinging a lot like the old western duals.
Hope this helps
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Fantastic Idea, I like the direction you are coming at it from.
To make a good hybrid work, from what Ive seen, you really need to strip it down to its key elements. In the case of a Western, its all about the Frontier Idea. You need a main setting to be vast expanses of wilderness with dots of rough civilization spread through it, usually located in some strategic place (natural resources, transportaion hub etc). There needs to be an area of higher industrial/technological development "elsewhere" that contrasts the rough frontier mentality of the main setting ("Back East" in traditional westerns, the Core in Firefly, etc). Its this place where the quality finished goods will come from, though there can also be rougher/cheaper local versions. A western is typically a fight for resources: a farm, a mine, a river, a stretch of land for a railroad, etc.
EDIT: Its quitin' time! I have more and will post it when I get home :)
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1. Fun combo, but it sounds like you'd have to market it as a fantasy. Those western guys are quite a unique group of readers and this would throw them off. If they climb on the wagon later, I think that would be cool. I mean, think of Firefly. Putting in horses and western clothes was not going to bring in the 'western' genre in my opinion. Even the soon to be released Aliens and Cowboys isn't going to bring in the true 'western' folk.
It's fantasy first, yes. It's just High Fantasy through the Lens of a Western. What I wonder is how much of that lens to use.
The Aesthetics and themes of the Western are what I'm trying to include. The connection to the history of the frontier and the genre as a whole.
2. Refer to any of Harry's battles, but the one on Wrigley with the Red Court Vamp comes immediately to mind. A good exercise for you would be to watch Fistful of Dollars and simply rewrite it screen by screen as a wizard battle--it will read, well see, the same I would think. Note that I said 'exercise' not include as part of your writing. Another fun one to re-write as an exercise would be the James Marsters gun fight in the Torchwood series. Those should give you a comfort level at finding the details between 'fireball' and 'done'. LOL Just a reminder to not over power your main character or it isn't any fun to read.
I've been developing the Magic system and recently the thought of charging up has interested me as a way of visualizing the calm before the storm of battle.
In terms of power level, no worries it's being managed. Like Whedon before me, my literature is based on my main character's suffering, misery and injuries. :D
In terms of the Fistful of Dollars exercise, I've thought of like 5 ways to do it, I just don't know which to pick.
1)
I would say yes, and here is some way. Why was the firearm created? To give a weapon to a solider that could penetrate armor/shield and was relatively easy to train with. Its why we stopped wearing mass amount of metal armor, well until our tech. got good enough that we understood the way bullets moved and Kevlar was invented. So in your world would a gun ever be needed if you had wizards running around. Could an Artificer simply have created a wand/rod or other type of weapon that the mundane could use and act like a gun. Lots of books and movies bring up wand duals, and I think this would work great in a western setting.
Then you brought up the melee combat and still have strong Gun/wand play. Ways to keep this going, would be to find a reason why it is. Could be as easy as wizards or talisman can put of a shield that stops the wand energy from getting to them, but it is a lot harder to stop a sword in the gut. Or limited amount of charges in the Wand/Gun. If you have a wizard that can stop a few blasts of gun or wand fire, might be nice to have a sturdy sword as a back up. Or spell eaters, maybe a race or group of people that are like an anti-mage or can absorb energy of spells thrown at them but a nice dagger to the back works well. Lots of ideas on that reason.
Magic Anti-Projectile Armor did occur to me. I subscribe to the idea that if Knights had been entirely bullet-proof they'd still be around. Rick Gillard, the stuntmaster for Star Wars said, "If these Jedi are using swords in a universe of Laser guns, they better be pretty damn good with them."
How much magic a Wizard can bring to bare is a concern. I've been developing my Magic system with something akin to an observable ammo capacity so that you can have the classic Western situation of 6 bullets left in your gun, but 7 bad guys still alive.
2)
I talked about wizards wand dueling above, I think this would just take it to the next level. I see spell slinging a lot like the old western duels.
That's what I was thinking too, but I meant aesthetically. Need to be able to get that draw of the fast draw. As I mentioned above, I've been playing with the idea of gathering energy. Kinda like DBZ now that I think of it only no shouting.
To make a good hybrid work, from what Ive seen, you really need to strip it down to its key elements. In the case of a Western, its all about the Frontier Idea. You need a main setting to be vast expanses of wilderness with dots of rough civilization spread through it, usually located in some strategic place (natural resources, transportaion hub etc). There needs to be an area of higher industrial/technological development "elsewhere" that contrasts the rough frontier mentality of the main setting ("Back East" in traditional westerns, the Core in Firefly, etc). Its this place where the quality finished goods will come from, though there can also be rougher/cheaper local versions. A western is typically a fight for resources: a farm, a mine, a river, a stretch of land for a railroad, etc.
EDIT: Its quitin' time! I have more and will post it when I get home :)
Already ahead of you there. For reference, the story's frontier is basically what used to be Mordor. An entire continent that has been until recently completely uncharted for the duration of human memory.
Well, back to work. more on this later.
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In re fantasy westerns, there are always King's Dark Tower books, but they would seem to have taken off on Stephen King already being a success, and other than that, I can't think of any that succeeded; Mark Sumner had a trilogy of which the third one never saw print, and K.J. Bishop's The Etched City is in that direction, and there is a Felix Gilman this year. All of these struck me as fun but none of them really took off, so if there's a trick to making this work i have no clues as to what it is.
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Dang. I'm awestruck with your reading acumen.
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Dang. I'm awestruck with your reading acumen.
I read very fast, and I usually read a few hours every day. After a few decades it adds up.
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but you have to have the mind to remember. mine doesn't anymore.
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It's not a real thread on this forums until Neurovore gives his sage-like advice at least in a small chime.
One of the reasons I posted this topic was because there are a lot of people who are a lot more well-read than me. One or two to the titles you listed actually look interesting(Or at least that one by Felix Gilman).
I mentioned before that I've put the Dark Tower series out of my mind, for the simple reason that I couldn't get into it and wanted to approach this subject of genre from a cinematic rather than a literary perspective(even though this will be a novel).
Though after reading more about it I almost want to slog through at least the audiobooks.
On the subject of Steampunk, there is room in the novel for a kind of Magical Steampunk. That is, Golem-like artifices that resemble reflections of technology in an ocean of Magic, but are at the end of the day Magical objects.
Back on the 2 topics at hand that I originally put forth. Going back words:
2. On the topic of how to do the Fast Draw, I've come to the conclusion that in either case of guns or no guns or something between that gathering/charging of energy will serve the needs of drama for the fastdraw. Wizards need to charge their fireballs and that can create good tension. It's also a great gimmick for limiting the Power Level of Magic Users.
1. I haven't come to a conclusion yet on this point. I do not know if I want guns or gun-like objects.
What remains is a cost benefit analysis: What the inclusion of firearms adds versus what ripples on the pond it creates.
For reference, until about 10-20 years before the story begins, the world's Tech-level had been essentially a perpetual 1066 even with Magic. What little Magic there was was used in isolated case and didn't really improved the quality of life. Mostly for engineering projects for example. A Magically Constructed Castle by itself does nothing to increase life expentancy per se.
Warfare is...Swords and Sorcery. Most advanced weapons on the battlefield are Magical Artificeie Compound Bows and Crossbows.
The three options in my head are thus:
A. Firearms like we have in the real world. A True Western...with Magic too. And swords. This would be distinctive and it would make for quite the blood bath since you have the most advanced weapons imaginable just put into the hands of people still in the mindset of "Charge on horseback. Kill with spear." This would be augmented by making Magical armor somewhat bullet-resistant at the low end and at the high-end bullet proof. Also the chanbara cliche of Knights so good with swords they can knock bullets out of the air.
This would allow for the theme of the Death of the Romanticized medieval age. But I'm lukewarm to this idea because I know several series that feature the introduction of Firearms like this and they usually relate to a hatred of the modern age on the author's part. I myself like fantasy, but do not hate the modern age.
But, it also ceases to be true Swords & Sorcery and becomes Swords & Sorcery now with guns...
B. No Firearms.
It preserves Swords & Sorcery perfectly. The Sword, the bow, the crossbow and others can take the place of the Gun in the Western mythos since it is so closely linked with Chanbara. The Western Elements become a bit of a flavor in terms of plot construction, but it is otherwise High Fantasy in my own way.
It would be more difficult to differeniate from the endless swarm of similar stories and worlds.
C. Firearm-like Magical Projectile Warfare. Firearm-Foci
This option is halfway between the two, and keeps it S&S and adds in Firearm-like weapons through cheating. Instead of a gunpowder-based Firearm, Wizards use Foci shaped like Guns that are otherwise just magical objects that channel magic for use as projectile weapons. A firearm is just a really easy to use projectile weapon. What these Firearm-Foci would do is give the same results without making it an easy to manufacture technology.
In this case, the Firearm-Foci would require Magical ability of some kind to be able to channel, gather and store the magic needed for them to work. It would also necessitate "Sparks" people who only have enough Magical ability to use these weapons and similar items and do nothing else magically speaking.
Note: I have a hard magic system to go with this world already. Which would make carrying these weapons extremely rewarding and hazardous at the same time for these Sparks.
But, I don't know which one sounds....most attractive. Could use a second or third opinion.
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I can think of only one way that guns and swords could coexist. While guns are great at killing humans and smaller critters, there might be quite a few monsters and demons out there that cannot be harmed by bullets but can still be cut into pieces by a good old sword. That way, both weapons have their validity. Having a reputation as a gunslinger might even be less impressive to some people than that of a master swordsman, and swords duels might be as common as pistol duels. You would probably need both skills to survive anyway.
A western without guns would seem sort of weird, because some of the iconic moments would simply not be possible. I wouldn't say it is impossible to do, but you would have a hard time establishing it against the readers expectation, but done well it should not be a problem. If you want a reason why there are no guns, magic as described below could be common enough so nobody ever bothered inventing them.
As for magic, I have one thing to say at first: I hate wands.
Don't get me wrong, there are places where they fit in, but magical western just isn't it. The whole western setting is rough and unpolished, so the style of magic should reflect that. Singular abilities, for example a fireslinger who can... well, sling fire. A natural gun if you will, with the same power and accuracy a gun would have. He would even have to "load" his power, engulfing his hand in fire with his will, which (coincidently!) takes about the time someone else would need to draw a gun.
Let's look at a duel. A gunslinger against a fireslinger. Both draw back their coats, the first reveals his holster holding his gun, he puts his hand next to it in the typical close up gesture. The second one reveals that he does not have a holster, maybe to intimidate the opponent, because he knows what he has coming. He too holds his hand next to where his holster would be, a nervous twitch in his index finger. On the draw, the fireslinger quickly stretches his hand, engulfing it in flame, then thrusting it forwards to throw a bolt of fire at his opponent.
Or a bar fight, some guys have their guns out, the fireslinger has his hand ablaze, when the sheriff comes in and tell him to put it out (like he would otherwise tell someone to drop a gun).
The whole spellbook, magic staff, whatever stereotype wizards stuff you have should probably not come up that often. That is "old world magic". There might still be some of those around, because a full blown sorcerer would make a great gang boss. Restricted in the old world, they can freely follow their dark desires in the new land.
Other kinds of magic could be less fight oriented. For example, I have the concept for a character called "First Aid Kid", You can guess his magical talent ;)
At a whole, if you stay mainly in the western genre, magic should probably just partially replace certain iconic objects and only for some people, while those items are still around.
Native magic (if you have an equivalent of native americans) would probably be more like druids or shamans (totems, dancing, influencing plants and animals, shifting into an animalform, stuff like that), and some of the settlers might even be learning some of it or something similar, especially scouts or similar characters would profit from this. And it is a great source for some cultural conflict. Could be even more interesting, if they use bows but there are no guns.
The fireslinger magic (any magic that does not fall under the shaman/druid category really) could either be hereditary or come from some item (no wands!). If you don't have guns, it should probably be items, so they replace the guns.
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Yet another good set of opinions....
I can think of only one way that guns and swords could coexist. While guns are great at killing humans and smaller critters, there might be quite a few monsters and demons out there that cannot be harmed by bullets but can still be cut into pieces by a good old sword. That way, both weapons have their validity. Having a reputation as a gunslinger might even be less impressive to some people than that of a master swordsman, and swords duels might be as common as pistol duels. You would probably need both skills to survive anyway.
I could see that(in my vision of things) as being plausible with the "Magic Swords but no Magic Bullets" axiom, which my Magic system already follows. In my system to make a long story short, if you actually made a "Magic bullet" and fired it out of a gun, it is more likely to leave a crater where your gunslinger used to be. But...monsters with immunities to "Normal weapons" and requiring magical weapons to hurt feels to much to me as an author like old editions of D&D, even if that was not your intention and besides it does date back hundreds of years to mythology.
It's a neat idea...but not really attractive to me.
A western without guns would seem sort of weird, because some of the iconic moments would simply not be possible. I wouldn't say it is impossible to do, but you would have a hard time establishing it against the readers expectation, but done well it should not be a problem. If you want a reason why there are no guns, magic as described below could be common enough so nobody ever bothered inventing them.
I have to ways to handwave away firearms built into the setting. THey almost always end with "A Wizard did it" or just simply "WIzards..." and I 'm being quite serious.
As for magic, I have one thing to say at first: I hate wands.
Don't get me wrong, there are places where they fit in, but magical western just isn't it. The whole western setting is rough and unpolished, so the style of magic should reflect that. Singular abilities, for example a fireslinger who can... well, sling fire. A natural gun if you will, with the same power and accuracy a gun would have. He would even have to "load" his power, engulfing his hand in fire with his will, which (coincidently!) takes about the time someone else would need to draw a gun.
Let's look at a duel. A gunslinger against a fireslinger. Both draw back their coats, the first reveals his holster holding his gun, he puts his hand next to it in the typical close up gesture. The second one reveals that he does not have a holster, maybe to intimidate the opponent, because he knows what he has coming. He too holds his hand next to where his holster would be, a nervous twitch in his index finger. On the draw, the fireslinger quickly stretches his hand, engulfing it in flame, then thrusting it forwards to throw a bolt of fire at his opponent.
Or a bar fight, some guys have their guns out, the fireslinger has his hand ablaze, when the sheriff comes in and tell him to put it out (like he would otherwise tell someone to drop a gun).
I don't like wands either, they are not very good props. The only business(Non-dialogue actions) that I could think of for characterization was twirling one between the fingers. Plus, being so small and made of wood they are very fragile.
I will also say that I never thought of making Magic rough and unpolished like Old West. Thank you for pointing in that direction.
I also like that parlance of -Slinger to describe spellcasters. It has a nice ring to it.
That bar fight scenario also reminded of a key Western trope I completely forgot about but need to have: The Mexican Standoff(In the case of my world it's be the Serican Standoff)...
The whole spellbook, magic staff, whatever stereotype wizards stuff you have should probably not come up that often. That is "old world magic". There might still be some of those around, because a full blown sorcerer would make a great gang boss. Restricted in the old world, they can freely follow their dark desires in the new land.
I really that idea of a dicotomy of Old World versus Frontier because that's what the West was like. I never thought about that really. Thanks again.
I am updating certain things though because there are certain Old World Tropes that just don't make sense to me as being part of the setting and doesn't go with my vision of Wizards(for this setting).
Other kinds of magic could be less fight oriented. For example, I have the concept for a character called "First Aid Kid", You can guess his magical talent ;)
Although that's a neat idea, this is The West, sir. That first aid kit/Doctor's valise you carry comes with the Local universal cureall: The Hacksaw.... The local doctor goes, "What's a germ?"
At a whole, if you stay mainly in the western genre, magic should probably just partially replace certain iconic objects and only for some people, while those items are still around.
To paraphrase Branden Sanderson, "Magic doesn't exist in a Vacuum" Making it reflective of The OLd Western is one thing, the ripples Magic's presence makes on the proverbial pond is another.
ANd that's not even taking into consideration the presence of Non-Humans like Elves and Dwarves, who are not just Star Trek Aliens for this.
Native magic (if you have an equivalent of native americans) would probably be more like druids or shamans (totems, dancing, influencing plants and animals, shifting into an animalform, stuff like that), and some of the settlers might even be learning some of it or something similar, especially scouts or similar characters would profit from this. And it is a great source for some cultural conflict. Could be even more interesting, if they use bows but there are no guns.
Yet another thing I never considered...Native Americans. Can't have a Western without....Geronimo...*Dramatic Music Hit*(That pause and hit actually happened in Stagecoach. Nowadays it's hilarious. Check it out).
The whole Druidic Animal-Based magic for me is too on-the-nose and far too obvious a choice for what I have in mind. I already have 4 Magic sources...I guess I'll need one more for the Native American angle. Still not sure where to go with that.
Thanks for the thoughts Haru.
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i tried doing a fantasy western a while back, in my setting magic was a solid substance that had to be forged to get the desired effect and combined to get the weirder things. its effects were based on its color with white and black being the rarest and most powerful. guns still exist but they had to have measured amounts of the magical substance in their bullets rather than gunpowder, and the guns were very hard and expensive to make so only a very very few had them and they tended to be marshals or very powerful bounty hunters/criminals. everyone else had swords and such and could have ones magical ones as well.
It was a fun idea but started getting a little to animeish for my tastes.
though i did enjoy the idea of swordslingers over gunslingers. i also had it so that people that used swords, particularly magic ones, were called Half Coats, because they had their dusters cut away on the side with their sword so the coat wouldn't get in the way.
as for the Native magic and the old world vs frontier i have some thoughts
read up on some native american myths their are plenty of horrible monsters and magic in them to help you build an idea for how to make your own native magic. For example, i read a legend a while back about skinwalkers that weren't evil monsters but powerful shamens who could turn into wolves through to protect their tribe.
also watch some old Clint Eastwood westerns, or other good westerns and think how could i do this with magic and swords rather than guns.
I think you would have to have focuses or some way for bounty hunters and marshals to cancel out someone else power easily otherwise bringing in someone who can call up fire at will would be impossible to take in alive.
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i tried doing a fantasy western a while back, in my setting magic was a solid substance that had to be forged to get the desired effect and combined to get the weirder things. its effects were based on its color with white and black being the rarest and most powerful. guns still exist but they had to have measured amounts of the magical substance in their bullets rather than gunpowder, and the guns were very hard and expensive to make so only a very very few had them and they tended to be marshals or very powerful bounty hunters/criminals. everyone else had swords and such and could have ones magical ones as well.
It was a fun idea but started getting a little to animeish for my tastes.
That doesn't sound very Animeish to me...but I haven't read samples of it in action. Plus, "Animeish" is a very vague descriptor to me given the range of Anime from Grave of The Fireflies to Ghost in The Shell to Excel Saga to (On the subject of Fantasy) Slayers.
though i did enjoy the idea of swordslingers over gunslingers. i also had it so that people that used swords, particularly magic ones, were called Half Coats, because they had their dusters cut away on the side with their sword so the coat wouldn't get in the way.
Why cut off half the coat? ...it's a waste of a perfectly good coat. You wear dusters in the west because it protects from the elements and in the case of the Western, more often than not you're in the desert. Cutting off part of the coat would defeat the purpose of wearing it. I'm not an authority on swordsmanship in any capacity but what I've seen you grap the sheathe with one hand when you draw so the coat won't make much of a difference if's it's tailored correctly. But, that could be incorect.
But, that's a nitpick of a story you've obviously abandoned.
as for the Native magic and the old world vs frontier i have some thoughts
read up on some native american myths their are plenty of horrible monsters and magic in them to help you build an idea for how to make your own native magic. For example, i read a legend a while back about skinwalkers that weren't evil monsters but powerful shamens who could turn into wolves through to protect their tribe.
Oh yeah. Native American tribes have a rich mythology and history. Even just the history and the effects of smallpox and the anthropological origin of the Wendigo is facinating. But...having the Native Americans(or NA Analogs) with Shape-changing powers, dances, lots of peyote and tons of stereotypes are....really obvious. I'm going my own way with things and doing the vanilla NAs with lots of stereotypes is not it at the moment. Though the idea of drawing on Soviet Westerns I've never seen is neat now that I think of it....
also watch some old Clint Eastwood westerns, or other good westerns and think how could i do this with magic and swords rather than guns.
I think you would have to have focuses or some way for bounty hunters and marshals to cancel out someone else power easily otherwise bringing in someone who can call up fire at will would be impossible to take in alive.
Not a big Eastwood fan on my end. Sergio Leone (Who didn't speak English) once explained that he loved to work with Eastwood(who didn't speak Italian) because he only had 2 expressions, "Wearing his hat" and "Not wearing his hat" . I'm in a unique position of liking a genre or at least the ideas surrounding a genre without liking very many instances of that genre.
That is a good point about the defenses, though. I will keep that in mind.
Also, not just for Marshals. If you want to get technical, I also need defensive Foci and stuff for Rustlers, Cutthroats, Murderers, Bounty Hunters, Desperados, Mugs, Pugs, Thugs, Nitwits, Half-Wits, Dimwits, Vipers, Snipers, Con Men, Indian Agents, Mexican Bandits, Muggers, B*******, Bushwackers, Hornswagglers, Horse Thieves, **** ****s, Train Robbers, Bank Robbers, A** Kickers, S*** Kickers and Methodists! .....
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There are of course a lot of ways to go with this. As has been mentioned before there are several steampunk novels that mix Westerns with magic. I don't know of any books off the top of my head that mix high fantasy with Westerns. One way to have guns in your story (I personally have trouble picturing a Western without some type of guns.) is to limit the effectiveness of the guns. Maybe put them back in a cap and ball era so that you got your six shots but there is no way you would have time to reload. Maybe make them all muzzle loaders. Maybe make gunpowder much more rare and expensive so it is only used sparingly. Maybe make the only bullets that would be magically relevant, big enough that pistols would only have two or three shots instead of six or twelve. You could use something similar to what L E Modesitt does in his Recluse novels where magicians can easily ignite gunpowder so anyone that is going up against a wizard tends to avoid it unless they have some means of shielding it from the wizard's power. It's not very helpful to have all the bullets in your gun or in your belt or pocket go off at once.
Although it's not the old West, if you want a story that combines guns, magic or advanced science ( the lines are a bit blurred ), and frontier like settings, I would recommend Modesitt's Corean Chronicles series.
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Just had a thought on Native Magic. In traditional shamanistic magic, the shaman communes with spirits of nature for knowledge and power, their are also a lot of right of passage rituals that require young natives to travel into the wilderness by themselves to get a vision or something.
You could combined these two elements so that natives use magic by bonding themselves body and soul with a nature spirit during their right of passage. Depending on what type of spirit the Native attracts would dictate what type of magic they can work. This would also open the door for those pesky native monsters that use to be human, evil spirits attack the young Indians and possess them turning them eventually into monsters, or if their will is not strong enough they are overwhelmed by their spirit and are killed.
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There are of course a lot of ways to go with this. As has been mentioned before there are several steampunk novels that mix Westerns with magic. I don't know of any books off the top of my head that mix high fantasy with Westerns. One way to have guns in your story (I personally have trouble picturing a Western without some type of guns.) is to limit the effectiveness of the guns. Maybe put them back in a cap and ball era so that you got your six shots but there is no way you would have time to reload. Maybe make them all muzzle loaders. Maybe make gunpowder much more rare and expensive so it is only used sparingly. Maybe make the only bullets that would be magically relevant, big enough that pistols would only have two or three shots instead of six or twelve. You could use something similar to what L E Modesitt does in his Recluse novels where magicians can easily ignite gunpowder so anyone that is going up against a wizard tends to avoid it unless they have some means of shielding it from the wizard's power. It's not very helpful to have all the bullets in your gun or in your belt or pocket go off at once.
Probably the route I'm heading towards if not more primitive. I am modelling the Magical Arms Race over the course of the tale and at the start is the beginning of the history of Firearms is the hand-held Bombard or Hand Cannon, which if turned on it's side looks a lot like a Wizard's Staff..... ;D
It is also important to remember the History of Cinema. To a Genre Theorist, the Samurai Film is almost identical to the Western Genre. They follow the same formulas, have similar archetypes and in some cases can take place during the same time periods as some the old Westerns and Civil War movies.
With the High Fantasy element I have license to borrow from that tradition as well especially since the Western and the Samurai film are inexplicably linked. John Ford inspired Akira Kurosama, who made Yojimbo, which was ripped off to make A Fistful of Dollars(There's a court case and everything) and every sequel that followed.
Although it's not the old West, if you want a story that combines guns, magic or advanced science ( the lines are a bit blurred ), and frontier like settings, I would recommend Modesitt's Corean Chronicles series.
I will definitely check that out in some capacity. Reading the wiki page on it, it sounds interesting to at least investigate.
Just had a thought on Native Magic. In traditional shamanistic magic, the shaman communes with spirits of nature for knowledge and power, their are also a lot of right of passage rituals that require young natives to travel into the wilderness by themselves to get a vision or something.
You could combined these two elements so that natives use magic by bonding themselves body and soul with a nature spirit during their right of passage. Depending on what type of spirit the Native attracts would dictate what type of magic they can work. This would also open the door for those pesky native monsters that use to be human, evil spirits attack the young Indians and possess them turning them eventually into monsters, or if their will is not strong enough they are overwhelmed by their spirit and are killed.
It's called a vision quest or going on Walk-About in Australia.
I have 4 sources of Magic laid out in my plans that has been sitting idly on my comp for year. 2 of them are similar but not identical to what you describe, but that's because it overlaps with ideas from Shintoism.
After reading your post, I thought about it and figured out my take on Native Americans or at least the stand in for their place as "Strange Outsiders on Land That Properly Theirs Before the Small Pox" in the Western Genre formula without being cartoonish exaggerations of actual Tribes. And they scare the hell out of me as they should....
Thanks, Nickeris. Nice...
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Check out Territory by Emma Bull
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*Looks up description of Territory*
That looks interesting and relevant to what I am writing. Thanks. :)
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Glad to help ;D
Another thing to consider is faith magic. Religion was very prevalent in the old west and in many towns was the most fortified building so that the villagers could fall back there in times of trouble.
I could see a lot of potential for a old powerful priest bustin out the whoop ass when the sh**t hit the fan.
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You've mentioned that you have set 4 sources of magic. Can you elaborate a bit? It might give us a better idea of where/how to fit the various "Western" elements around them.
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Glad to help ;D
Another thing to consider is faith magic. Religion was very prevalent in the old west and in many towns was the most fortified building so that the villagers could fall back there in times of trouble.
I could see a lot of potential for a old powerful priest bustin out the whoop ass when the sh**t hit the fan.
That reminds me of this old Zombie moview were the presit bust outs come kung fu and yells "I Kick A$$ for the Lord!"
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If you want to limit the role of firearms without "capping" the technology level at flintlocks/muskets you an always cry "Scarcity of Iron!" So you could have proper six guns, but would have to limit your armor and weapons to bronze, with iron and steel being rare and expensive.
Another possibility would be to make them common enough, but easily hexed on an area of effect basis, possibly have regions warded against them. So while repeaters and revolvers might be common, they're of little use in large scale battles. A nation or state won't bother fielding armies with the things since a spellcaster on the other side could lay out a simple whammy and turn them into very expensive clubs rather than projectile weapons.
You could then permit individual weapons to be crafted which are warded against the hexes, giving you an excuse to have the occasional rare masterpiece sixgun that reliably works even against spellcasters and their protections, all decked out in spiffy runes and perhaps exotic materials. Letting you have the odd gunfighter without overwhelming the sword/sorcery culture with firearms. Makes for not just individual character possibilities like the odd bandit leader/Man With No Name, but also "Western Feel" elite groups like the Arizona or Texas Rangers... unit which while few and far between can a force to be respected.
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You've mentioned that you have set 4 sources of magic. Can you elaborate a bit? It might give us a better idea of where/how to fit the various "Western" elements around them.
Sure, I'll give a brief overview to keep discussion going. This is still a work-in-progress and for the most part they are fairly generic and unoriginal, but they're supposed to be. Having an original Magic system is not nearly as important to me as having one that is slick, easy to follow and allows for some great drama, characters and action.
1. Arcane Science: Your standard, vanilla Newtonian Physics influenced Magic. The stuff Wizards are made of. This one is the most unoriginal of the 4, but it's a classic trope for a reason. It works.
My variation on it uses 7 elements: Water, Fire, Earth, Air, Mind, Body and "Spirit" (Temp name. I don't like the idea of Spirit). Body represents anything with a biological cell structure. A Bodyslinger could just as easily work with Trees and Grass as they could with the human body.
To make a magical effect, you need an equal amount of elemental energy to make it happen. The closer that effect is to the natural order, the easier it is to do.
The key here is that it is Power from the environment around the caster. Power can be gathered from the world around and stored into objects like say staves. When such containers are broken however, the however many spells worth of Magic always escapes violently.
A Wizard who walks around with his Staff fully-charged is the equivalent of someone with a fully loaded Gun, but at the same time is essentially holding an unstable explosive.That's why most Wizards don't, they gather the Magic they need for a SPell on-the-fly and usually from the environment.
2. Magic from another Magical Container
You can get power from an outside Container. Some Magical creatures do magic on their own. You can tap one of these creatures for power. From the equivalent of tapping an electric eel for your battery to tapping the Fire Magic of that Fire Spirit.
There also places and objects that draw in their own Power that you can Tap and get power that way.
3. Shamanism and other uses of Spirits
Getting a Spirit or Magical Animal of some kind to do your work for you is another way to Power.
One of the Cultures I'm developing I literally call Gentleman Shamans who treat Mediumship with a perspective of Metaphysical economics. They literally having commanding Spirits and Animals down to a science or at least a cultural norm. Played straight, this culture of animals and spirits doing stuff for humans en-masse in an organized hive-mind fashion could look cool. But, it's also a step away from conjuring images that are all kinds of F****d up.
One sub-culture uses fair trade, one enslaves spirits and animals outright and another directly channels them through their own body.
4. Ancestral Memory
Essentially the Magical version of Genetic Memory. In this case it ranges from having a number of Obi-Wan Kenobi-style ghosts following you and teaching you throughout your lifetime to just instinctively knowing how to farm without ever being taught. Such things are both passed along in families in a sort of Mantle and are placed directly in Magical objects you can pass from person to person.
"Faith Magic" would be a combination of these 4 in some way depending on what you're doing. I don't like the idea of it as a seperate branch because to me an "Ocean of Power that is Faith" sounds hokey. It also doesn't help that I'm not religious.
But, I also can't let the opportunity to pass to explore the birth of a new religion. The Old West was the era when the LDS Church came into being. As an author, I have to explore that kind of thing in some capacity. Especially since in a world of Arcane Science, the argument between "what is a God?" and "What is a really powerful Wizard?" is a fraught landscape.
So, even if I don't have Faith Magic, I will explore how Religion deals with the presence of Magic and Magic-users. What happens when the new Messiah CAN do miracles that baffle Wizards?
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How deep are you planning to go with the Magic in the world. By that I mean, is Magic replacing Technology, or is it replacing Physics?
I really like this Idea, so Ive been rolling it around in my head all weekend. Near as I can come up with, these are the basic setting elements you'll want to replicate/address in order to preserve a Western feel:
The Old World - To provide a contrast to the Frontier of the "west"
Indians - A "savage" race. Primative, tribal and/or nomadic, naturalistic. Not seen as equals and/or human. Large language/cultural barrier. Original inhabitants of the Land, now being displaced by the "white man" settlers. Probably a great role for your elven race.
Slaves - Not nessesary to the "westen" feel persay, but historically relevant, especially if you have it set near a Civil War event (either leading up to a war or set in reconstruction after). Offhand, I would say the Dwarves would be a good fit: short but strong makes them good for manual labor, could have knowledge of things lost to the "Modern" way of thinking, kept alive in secret. They could also give a whole new meaning to the "Underground Railroad" ;)
Transportation - This depends heavily on your magic system and how prevalent you want to make it, but you need the same basic levels of travel:
-Horse - or similar aminal mount
-stagecoaches - or similar, basically just a slightly more comfortable than mounted travel
-trains - just make them magically driven instead of steam.
Or you can look at them a little more abstractly, and just keep the actual story impact elements. Like instead of Trains you maybe have a portal system that transports people from station to station (sending people through ether-streams or ley lines or something); it;s still fast, capable of providing a large econimic motivation, is the main means to move large volumes of people/goods to the Frontier, is schedule driven (which is what started novel new things like standardized time zones and such), and is generally safer from the dangers of the Frontier than a coach-ride.
Missionaries - Like slavery, religion isn't critical to the Western, but its still relevant if you so choose. These would be the guys "Spreading the Word", whatever that is, through the rontier. The defining traits would be magic heavily on the defensive side, but requiring more devotion/belief than the rough and dirty mechanisms of normal magic, or else maybe fueled by an actual entity of some kind. They'd need a heavy philosophy of some kinds, ideally somethign that can easily be shouted from a soap-box. They's also likely have conflict with the Natives, who already have their own religion/philosophy/worldview.
Weapons - The west was a time when guns had displaced swords as the primary tool for killing men.
-Guns
-Pistol - Basic self defense tool, various levels of sophistication, close to mid range
-Shotgun - the big hitter, shorter range, slow/limited shots
-rifle - long distance, prescision tool. Takes higher skill level to use properly
-Cannons - Bulky military weapon, more seige unit than anti-personelle. Costly, unwieldy, and powerful. Improper use will likely kill everyone nearby.
-Hand
-Dangerous tools, but have been displaced by "guns" as the specialized man-killing tool.
-Savages. Whatever the Indian analog will be uses older, more primative (at least to the white man's eyes) weapons, which are usually outclassed/overpowered by the modern guns.
-Still seen in military units, but typically more ceremonial than most (think Calvalry/officer's saber)
EDIT: finished this just as you posted the magic write-up. Will edit in light of that soon
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Not trying to push specific ideas on you, so obviously ignore any and all of this if you want, but here's some more I came up with for your magic system. I love me some magic systems, and used to love building custom settings and magic for various RP campaigns, back in the day. This is giving me a much needed outlet for nerdly creativity, so bear with me.
1. Arcane Science:
The users of this would be the learned. Centers of that learning and development would be largely in the Old World, which imports coming out to the Fontier to ply their trade. In a given town they would be the equivalent of the Blacksmith. They have teh knowldge to make things others could barely understand, and lots of pet projects, but the average workday is repairing the basic impliments of Magic #2 used in everyday life. Charging them may be a big part of that, if you specifically don't want the average person to be able to do that.
2. Magic from another Magical Container
This would fit best as the baseline, "for-the-masses" type of magic; the stuff the average person uses to drive their kitchen or plow their fields. It would take an actual user of the Arcane Sciences to create or modify one, but an average user could do the basic maintenance like charging the thing. May require an established source device, like a well of magical energies. For example, you could charge something from a natural spring but it would be less regulated/clean and may damage the device, wheras a specifically crafted well would do it without those dangers.
The Places of power would be great drivers for the frontier economy. Where Old West towns grew up around mines, rivers, forest resources etc, the Frontier towns could grow up around energy nexii (nexuses?), which would give great fodder for the character of different towns (like how a mining town is vastly different than a Logging town, which is vastly different from a town based on fishing or river trade.
The portable nature of the Objects could be overpowering unless they are either difficult to move, temporary in power, or generally rare and valuable. Would they be living things, inanimate objects, or both depending on element? Are we talking salamanders, water nymphs, and sylvan wood spirits, or more like a magical mineral mined like gold, special water from a magic spring, etc. Basically, would you buy one in a general store or a stable, would it get a name like a hourse or mule (or potentially caged and neglected).
Container items would need to me inately safer than the basic Arcane tools, as they would need to mainain their charge. Id say make them less flexible in their effect. Like a mage with a full Fire staff could do all kinds of fire effects with the staff acting as battery, but the Container verions might only be able to produce a kitchen fire, or heat metal, or create a 3 ft beam of fire out one end.
3. Shamanism and other uses of Spirits
This is an interesting contrast to the arcne sciences. It would fit well with the idea of a more naturalistic culture, and a tribal one, ie. your indians. And since you have different methods/views on how to go about interacting with them, that might be a good line to divide the different tribes of elves (or not if you dont like that idea). One big theme with native americans was that there were vast differences between the various tribes, with some being dangerous and war-like while others were passive and peaceful, however the white man often failed to learn the difference, and usually expect the worst from all the others.
4. Ancestral Memory
This would fit perfectly with the idea of a subjegated race, and secret knowledge preserved under the noses of their overlords. It would also lend itself to explaining why they were subjegated in the first place, with certain families being kept and bred for specific tasks which their overlords convince themselves they are born to do and thus are happy to do as slaves forever, etc etc. Lots of fertile ground for story seeds of the oppressed rising up (or maybe quietly resisting from the shadows), and I enjoy the notion that the derided, pitied, and/or percieved as inferior race actually has a much longer history and rich culture, just in a form their masters cannot recognize.
"Faith Magic"
If you aren't looking to make it a big thing, maybe you should deliberately leave it a bit unexplained. Have it follow some of the rules and break others for each category, to the great confusion of the rest. Like it acts like a shamanistic magic in many ways, but there is no detectable spirit (despite the priest obviously invoking a diety/spirit). Let it have a container-like focus, but with an unidentifiable energy siganture, or one that never seems to need recahrging. Making one of the elements types previously unknown and behind this branch could work as an alternative; Im thinking Spirit in this instance, as a class of element that the arcane sciences have never heard of, or maybe actively deride, like cold-fusion or perpetual motion. In any case Id make a central point of how their magic-like works break all the known rules and baffle the arcanists. Or take it a step further and make certain things completely out of bounds for all other magics but somehow possible for the Priests. Healing magics would make sense for that, as i think you said you don't want to have much common ealing.
In setting, Priests could be a new thing to have poped up recently that most others dont really understand, but dont actually fear. It could be organized into an actual cult/church, or be more typical as a isolated community that is converting to the new way, even a solitary wanderer spreading the good word.
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(Temp name. I don't like the idea of Spirit).
How about breath? In some cultures they are considered similar or even identical.
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1. Arcane Science: Your standard, vanilla Newtonian Physics influenced Magic. The stuff Wizards are made of. This one is the most unoriginal of the 4, but it's a classic trope for a reason. It works.
My variation on it uses 7 elements: Water, Fire, Earth, Air, Mind, Body and "Spirit" (Temp name. I don't like the idea of Spirit). Body represents anything with a biological cell structure. A Bodyslinger could just as easily work with Trees and Grass as they could with the human body.
How about aether (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_%28classical_element%29)? At least to me it seems that is pretty much what you want, and there is also a physical concept of aether (though no longer in use today), which would fall neatly in line with your Newtonian physics magic, I think.
Which btw. gave me an idea for the concept of relativistic magic, if there is too much magic at one place (for example a big magic battle), it will distort time, and a battle of 5 minutes might last 10 years, depending on the perspective. Man, I wish I could study magic in real life...
2. Magic from another Magical Container
You can get power from an outside Container. Some Magical creatures do magic on their own. You can tap one of these creatures for power. From the equivalent of tapping an electric eel for your battery to tapping the Fire Magic of that Fire Spirit.
There also places and objects that draw in their own Power that you can Tap and get power that way.
So this would especially be good with a familiar of some sort, an animal companion that provides the magical power to its master. I like the idea.
3. Shamanism and other uses of Spirits
Getting a Spirit or Magical Animal of some kind to do your work for you is another way to Power.
One of the Cultures I'm developing I literally call Gentleman Shamans who treat Mediumship with a perspective of Metaphysical economics. They literally having commanding Spirits and Animals down to a science or at least a cultural norm. Played straight, this culture of animals and spirits doing stuff for humans en-masse in an organized hive-mind fashion could look cool. But, it's also a step away from conjuring images that are all kinds of F****d up.
One sub-culture uses fair trade, one enslaves spirits and animals outright and another directly channels them through their own body.
Now this is interesting. Great minds think alike, as they say.
I've been working on something very similar, but every magic that is used is based on the spirit or soul of a being. Most of the time there are wizards that imprison the souls of spirits, elementals and demons (yes, in this case they do have a soul. Or an essence or whatever you might want to call it), and can then channel the souls power to cast magic. Usually only spirits and elementals are used, because demons are just to powerful. Imprisoning those souls is almost industrialized and are imprisoned in specially prepared bottles. The protagonist though is one of very few people who ever imprisoned a demons soul, and he's got it in an old Gatorade bottle. ;D
And of course there are those who channel spirits directly through their body, or rather keep the soul inside their body. Those are mostly what would be were-somethings in other worlds.
This entire thing brings me back to your sword problem. My world is set somewhere 20 years into the future, but swords will still play a mayor roll. There are swords (mostly military uses it, but mercenaries and others tend to get their hands on some, too) that can be infused with the harvested souls mentioned above. To do so, there are standardised vials, that fit into the handle of the swords and can be filled with any soul that is available. Usually the "Binders" fill them up (like I said, on a massive, industrial scale) for non magic soldiers to use. A sword can hold only 1 vial at any time, so the soldiers have a pack of vials on their belt to change if need be. It is especially for infusing a sword with fire to fight ice elementals and similar rock-paper-scissor things. Anyone who has a sword like that takes special care of his soulpack (the vials), so it is not unusual to find older soldiers with 20 or more different types of souls in their pack, and most of them will be a lot stronger than the standard ones. Yes, I did originally think of this for an rpg system. :D
4. Ancestral Memory
Essentially the Magical version of Genetic Memory. In this case it ranges from having a number of Obi-Wan Kenobi-style ghosts following you and teaching you throughout your lifetime to just instinctively knowing how to farm without ever being taught. Such things are both passed along in families in a sort of Mantle and are placed directly in Magical objects you can pass from person to person.
Does it work like the magic under 1 and they just don't have to learn, or is it something else entirely?
"Faith Magic" would be a combination of these 4 in some way depending on what you're doing. I don't like the idea of it as a seperate branch because to me an "Ocean of Power that is Faith" sounds hokey. It also doesn't help that I'm not religious.
But, I also can't let the opportunity to pass to explore the birth of a new religion. The Old West was the era when the LDS Church came into being. As an author, I have to explore that kind of thing in some capacity. Especially since in a world of Arcane Science, the argument between "what is a God?" and "What is a really powerful Wizard?" is a fraught landscape.
So, even if I don't have Faith Magic, I will explore how Religion deals with the presence of Magic and Magic-users. What happens when the new Messiah CAN do miracles that baffle Wizards?
It would be quite interesting, if faith magic was something exclusive to the frontier. In the old world, people don't believe in gods or anything, because some of them are pretty close to one. The frontier puts fear for your survival back into those people, so some might begin to worship a god, one way or another.
But regardless of the specific kinds of magic you are using, I personally find it very confusing to have so many different types of magic flying around. I like it better, when there is one principle of magic that can be used in different ways. The outcome might be similar to what you have now, but it seems more satisfactory to me, if there is a base theory about it. That way the magic is not simply put on top of the world, but it is truly part of it and feels that way. But I am a physics nerd when it comes to this, so YMMV.
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How deep are you planning to go with the Magic in the world. By that I mean, is Magic replacing Technology, or is it replacing Physics?
Magic replacing Technology.
I really like this Idea, so Ive been rolling it around in my head all weekend. Near as I can come up with, these are the basic setting elements you'll want to replicate/address in order to preserve a Western feel:
The Old World - To provide a contrast to the Frontier of the "west"
Indians - A "savage" race. Primative, tribal and/or nomadic, naturalistic. Not seen as equals and/or human. Large language/cultural barrier. Original inhabitants of the Land, now being displaced by the "white man" settlers. Probably a great role for your elven race.
Slaves - Not nessesary to the "westen" feel persay, but historically relevant, especially if you have it set near a Civil War event (either leading up to a war or set in reconstruction after). Offhand, I would say the Dwarves would be a good fit: short but strong makes them good for manual labor, could have knowledge of things lost to the "Modern" way of thinking, kept alive in secret. They could also give a whole new meaning to the "Underground Railroad" ;)
Glad you like it, it seems I may have an audience for this.
In regards to Non-humans like Elves and Dwarves, I had 2 design rules for them. 1) They are Species not "Races". They are not human in any sense of the word. 2) IF I did non-humans at all, they'd have to be compelling and Dwarves would have to be made more interesting that Elves (Because Elves are always put onto a pedestal by every author, game designer and fanboy ever and as a result I HATE ELVES...) and the bar so far is that my Elves/Orcs are actually Greco-Roman ;D. Dwarves are even more interesting...
The Dwarves as Slaves and Elves/Orcs as Indians (The Romanticized Noble Savage thing as opposed to true Native Americans) did not occur to me except in passing. Thinking about it now I may have to give it more thought but I feel bad. I feel really bad about feeling attracted to the idea of enslaving one Sapient Species and giving the other Small Pox.... That's just wrong....
Transportation - This depends heavily on your magic system and how prevalent you want to make it, but you need the same basic levels of travel:
-Horse - or similar aminal mount
-stagecoaches - or similar, basically just a slightly more comfortable than mounted travel
-trains - just make them magically driven instead of steam.
Or you can look at them a little more abstractly, and just keep the actual story impact elements. Like instead of Trains you maybe have a portal system that transports people from station to station (sending people through ether-streams or ley lines or something); it;s still fast, capable of providing a large econimic motivation, is the main means to move large volumes of people/goods to the Frontier, is schedule driven (which is what started novel new things like standardized time zones and such), and is generally safer from the dangers of the Frontier than a coach-ride.
Not sure on this one yet except that I need Magecoaches and Dragontrains. Don't ask why. :-X
Weapons - The west was a time when guns had displaced swords as the primary tool for killing men.
-Guns
-Pistol - Basic self defense tool, various levels of sophistication, close to mid range
-Shotgun - the big hitter, shorter range, slow/limited shots
-rifle - long distance, prescision tool. Takes higher skill level to use properly
-Cannons - Bulky military weapon, more seige unit than anti-personelle. Costly, unwieldy, and powerful. Improper use will likely kill everyone nearby.
-Hand
-Dangerous tools, but have been displaced by "guns" as the specialized man-killing tool.
-Savages. Whatever the Indian analog will be uses older, more primative (at least to the white man's eyes) weapons, which are usually outclassed/overpowered by the modern guns.
-Still seen in military units, but typically more ceremonial than most (think Calvalry/officer's saber)
Thanks, that's actually a good guide for the Magical Arms race.
Will reply to the other new posts a little later.
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Not trying to push specific ideas on you, so obviously ignore any and all of this if you want, but here's some more I came up with for your magic system. I love me some magic systems, and used to love building custom settings and magic for various RP campaigns, back in the day. This is giving me a much needed outlet for nerdly creativity, so bear with me.
1. Arcane Science:
The users of this would be the learned. Centers of that learning and development would be largely in the Old World, which imports coming out to the Fontier to ply their trade. In a given town they would be the equivalent of the Blacksmith. They have teh knowldge to make things others could barely understand, and lots of pet projects, but the average workday is repairing the basic impliments of Magic #2 used in everyday life. Charging them may be a big part of that, if you specifically don't want the average person to be able to do that.
Not sure how common-place magic users will be yet, but for the most part they will augment normally existing professions. For example, a Blacksmith is still a blacksmith with all the normal tools of a blacksmith. Having a Fireslinger or an Earth/Metalslinger around to help you melt or shape the metal would be the same blacksmith with more high-tech equipment.
You are correct about Arcane Science being the place of the Learned. Keeping that knowledge proprietary and failing at it is a big part of my plans. ;D
2. Magic from another Magical Container
This would fit best as the baseline, "for-the-masses" type of magic; the stuff the average person uses to drive their kitchen or plow their fields. It would take an actual user of the Arcane Sciences to create or modify one, but an average user could do the basic maintenance like charging the thing. May require an established source device, like a well of magical energies. For example, you could charge something from a natural spring but it would be less regulated/clean and may damage the device, wheras a specifically crafted well would do it without those dangers.
The Places of power would be great drivers for the frontier economy. Where Old West towns grew up around mines, rivers, forest resources etc, the Frontier towns could grow up around energy nexii (nexuses?), which would give great fodder for the character of different towns (like how a mining town is vastly different than a Logging town, which is vastly different from a town based on fishing or river trade.
The portable nature of the Objects could be overpowering unless they are either difficult to move, temporary in power, or generally rare and valuable. Would they be living things, inanimate objects, or both depending on element? Are we talking salamanders, water nymphs, and sylvan wood spirits, or more like a magical mineral mined like gold, special water from a magic spring, etc. Basically, would you buy one in a general store or a stable, would it get a name like a hourse or mule (or potentially caged and neglected).
Container items would need to me inately safer than the basic Arcane tools, as they would need to mainain their charge. Id say make them less flexible in their effect. Like a mage with a full Fire staff could do all kinds of fire effects with the staff acting as battery, but the Container verions might only be able to produce a kitchen fire, or heat metal, or create a 3 ft beam of fire out one end.
Haven't designed the commonplace Magic like that yet. A better name for number 2 would be "Sponsored Magic" but I'm hesitant to use that term, 1) because it is also used in RPGs and 2) because it denotes a connection to something really powerful being the source of the power whereas in my system it could just be potential energy you would otherwise use for #1.
3. Shamanism and other uses of Spirits
This is an interesting contrast to the arcne sciences. It would fit well with the idea of a more naturalistic culture, and a tribal one, ie. your indians. And since you have different methods/views on how to go about interacting with them, that might be a good line to divide the different tribes of elves (or not if you dont like that idea). One big theme with native americans was that there were vast differences between the various tribes, with some being dangerous and war-like while others were passive and peaceful, however the white man often failed to learn the difference, and usually expect the worst from all the others.
Although this does shout, "Native Americans" especially when combined with Animal shapechanging...that to me is too obvious. Whenever I go through in my head of describing the idea of "Swords & Sorcery Western" I think about the other person going, "Let me guess...Native Americans like WoW Druids, hahaha..." and I want to respond to that, "No, actually something better..."
There are normally 2 responses to Spirits and Mediumship: 1) Kill them with fire, 2) worship them. What I wanted was a culture that picked the third option: Milking it for all it's worth and making an Urbanized civilization out of it. Hence, The Gentleman Shamans. Which also have a connect to the romantic notion of "Jolly old England" being descended from Beowulf, which I find interesting and times humorous.
4. Ancestral Memory
This would fit perfectly with the idea of a subjegated race, and secret knowledge preserved under the noses of their overlords. It would also lend itself to explaining why they were subjegated in the first place, with certain families being kept and bred for specific tasks which their overlords convince themselves they are born to do and thus are happy to do as slaves forever, etc etc. Lots of fertile ground for story seeds of the oppressed rising up (or maybe quietly resisting from the shadows), and I enjoy the notion that the derided, pitied, and/or percieved as inferior race actually has a much longer history and rich culture, just in a form their masters cannot recognize.
Placing Ancestral Memories into objects also allows for a nice economy of information and a culture that developed without the need for literacy.
"Faith Magic"
If you aren't looking to make it a big thing, maybe you should deliberately leave it a bit unexplained. Have it follow some of the rules and break others for each category, to the great confusion of the rest. Like it acts like a shamanistic magic in many ways, but there is no detectable spirit (despite the priest obviously invoking a diety/spirit). Let it have a container-like focus, but with an unidentifiable energy siganture, or one that never seems to need recahrging. Making one of the elements types previously unknown and behind this branch could work as an alternative; Im thinking Spirit in this instance, as a class of element that the arcane sciences have never heard of, or maybe actively deride, like cold-fusion or perpetual motion. In any case Id make a central point of how their magic-like works break all the known rules and baffle the arcanists. Or take it a step further and make certain things completely out of bounds for all other magics but somehow possible for the Priests. Healing magics would make sense for that, as i think you said you don't want to have much common ealing.
In setting, Priests could be a new thing to have poped up recently that most others dont really understand, but dont actually fear. It could be organized into an actual cult/church, or be more typical as a isolated community that is converting to the new way, even a solitary wanderer spreading the good word.
I'll see where I go with it but that is some good food for thought. Thanks.
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Not sure how common-place magic users will be yet, but for the most part they will augment normally existing professions. For example, a Blacksmith is still a blacksmith with all the normal tools of a blacksmith. Having a Fireslinger or an Earth/Metalslinger around to help you melt or shape the metal would be the same blacksmith with more high-tech equipment.
when I read this i get the feeling of guilds, Blacksmithing guild that sends out people to populated areas based of strength of magic/tech/skill. these blacksmithes need to send money back to the guild via "stage coach" (think ponkerton trains in the old west.). just a thought
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But regardless of the specific kinds of magic you are using, I personally find it very confusing to have so many different types of magic flying around. I like it better, when there is one principle of magic that can be used in different ways. The outcome might be similar to what you have now, but it seems more satisfactory to me, if there is a base theory about it. That way the magic is not simply put on top of the world, but it is truly part of it and feels that way. But I am a physics nerd when it comes to this, so YMMV.
Wanted to address this one up front, they all follow the same , "Rules of the Game" as my writing profs called it. They are just different approaches to the same game and certain aspects of the rules taken to their logical extreme. The nuts and bolts are all unified.
How about aether (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_%28classical_element%29)? At least to me it seems that is pretty much what you want, and there is also a physical concept of aether (though no longer in use today), which would fall neatly in line with your Newtonian physics magic, I think.
I was thinking about using Aether since a bunch of other parts of my Wizard designs already use old Alchemists terms. I guess now I will.
So this would especially be good with a familiar of some sort, an animal companion that provides the magical power to its master. I like the idea.
Yes they would. ;)
Now this is interesting. Great minds think alike, as they say.
(truncated quote) Yes, I did originally think of this for an rpg system. :D
Like I said, this one is the most unoriginal of the 4. To be honest, it made sense to use SHinto influence in my setting so why-the-hell not have Pokemon Masters on steroids? ;D
Does it work like the magic under 1 and they just don't have to learn, or is it something else entirely?
Yes, like #1. There's a bit more sophistication, but I'm still developing it so it doesn't come out as an Assassin's Creed ripoff. It's based and rooted in Ancestor worship.
An example of the sophistication is the difference between knowing something and understanding something. If a long line of swordsmen pass on their swordsmanship through this system, for example. Using Mind Magic from #1, they just know it. They don't understand how they do the swordsmanship, they just do it instinctively. But that's one method.
I'm still working on the theme and variation.
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For doing your spellslinger characters, take a cue from the character of Mississippi from the movie El Dorado. He was played by James Caan, and he could not shoot a six gun at all, so he was a knife thrower who was faster then most gunslingers. Later on, he used a sawed off shotgun. Have it where they use knife like foci for their spells, something like bo shuriken or kunai knife.
Perhaps guns are only at the percussion cap level, and the gun belt would look more like a web belt with pouches for shot, powder, and caps. These pouches would be warded against magic that would destroy them, and they could taken off fast incase them magic gets through.
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This just popped into my head , spawned by the poster above ... my apologies if its already been mentioned.
Maybe its just too dangerous to walk around with a gun, whether it shoots bullets or balls, because the casters can make the gunpowder spontaneously explode.
This might give rise to really eloborately made, single shot guns, designed to ward the powder from the mages.
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I actually brushed on that on the last page a little. It's an idea would work for sixguns as well, while still keeping the weapons scarce enough to not overwhelm the sword and armor culture.
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In a world of Wizards, artificer, and alchemists I cant see gun powder working. I think someone would have invented it but it would not be practical. A man would have to buy a warded gun. His bullets would need to be individual warded, or a pouch to put them in warded. It would suck to have only 6 bullets in your gun and have a wayward sorcerer exploding your gun belt. As wells as it being doubly expensive. You have to have the materials to make the gun powder and the materials to make the wards.
I think the idea of a gun make sense, it’s a wand/rod with a handle. As well as bullets being ruined projectiles that can have different functions. Lighting, force, fire, etc… the cant misfire or explode because you stand up to a wizard with enough power to by-pass your guns/bullets wards. the cost would be just the spell placed on the gun to make it throw something fast and then the type of bullets you want.
Of course the above would only work in a place where magic was common, or common enough to have a artificer in most city and towns.
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It's as easy to fix, gimmick or protect as is needed by the author to create the atmosphere the author desires, the level of scarcity preferred, etc. For example, the author could decide that it's the mechanism of the gun that gets hexed unless warded properly. Remember that this isn't a "this is how it would work" issue so much as "how could we make it work to give the author the tools to make the world they want." :)
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That true, i get caught up in the why things happen a lot.
and i think i would miss the smoke from old world guns, the smells you would loose from simply using magic. or course that could be changed depending on the type of ammo used.
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Vryce, in a fantasy setting gunpowder would be the providence of wizards, alchemists, and artificers.
Here is another take, one use foci that look like minni balls. They are put into the chamber, and when they are fired they turn into a type of elemental attack. Things like lightning, fireballs, or ice pellets.
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One thing to keep in mind about "the old west" is that there were really 2 periods in history, but films tend to muddle them together. The first was the antebellum West. It was the time when frontiersman, trappers, miners, and explorers pushed into the vast unknown. Towns were few and far between, established along with military forts. Most people passed through the area on their way to the west coast. Others moved huge herds of cattle from grazing land to graing land, never staying long. Resource rushes (like the Gold Rush) brought a group of people in, but left ghost towns behind when the resource ran out. Also this was the time that the Mormons moved west (religious groups fleeing repression?). It is the setting for most of the man-versus-nature or man-versus-man stories. Most weapons were single-shot muzzle loaders, right up until the very end. Casting metal balls was easy, and powder can be stored in bulk if properly maintained.
The second was the post- civil war era. The west became a place of wealth, of industry. Railroads pushed into the vast praries. The vast open cattle lands were claimed by farmers and guarded by barbed wire. Cities grew up to concentrate the wealth- cattle pens at rail-heads, banks to loan money to farmers at a profit, etc. This is the setting for most of the man-versus-society classic Westerns- the travelling cowboy who defends the poor homesteaders from the rail-baron who wants the land, taming of a town run by evil men, etc. Mass prodcution and common parts were key to making repeating rifles. Without common bores with tight tolerances, repeating firearms are impossible. Most of them had to be made back east and shipped. People did not make ammunition. It had to be bought. At best, a larger frontier town might have one small shop that bought brass and did re-loading.
Deciding what kind of struggles you want to write about helps define what kind of 'frontier' should look like, and what kind of weapons were available.
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Since you said you were wanting to feature the arms race of the guns fairly heavily, a few notes on that.
Any arms race is a constant struggle between Offense and Defense, and each one inevitably determines what you get from the other. Sword shapes were dictated by the armor they needed to defend against, which was often a matter of what could be safely worn/carried in that particular climate. The crusades make a good study of that, where the mid-eastern slashing swords couldn't get through the heavy plate and mail (being slashing weapons made to battle quilted cloth and leather armor) while the Europeans were slowing dieing from the heat of wearing pounds and pounds of steel in the desert.
When guns first came around to the Western civilizations, they didn't replace Swords, they replaced Bows and Arrows (or crossbows), but were still too inaccurate, slow to reload, and sensitive to moister. We're talking muskets. Armor was still a common thing. In fact, the term "bulletproof" was originally referring to a mark on a piece of armor left by a musket ball, which the smith would fire point blank at his product to prove that it could stop bullets. The major leaps in gun technology were:
Rifled Barrels - increased Range/accuracy significantly but were slow, expensive, and fragile, and did not work well with a muzzle-loading balls.
Conical Bullets - increased Range/accuracy dramatically, had hollow base that would expand to engage barrel rifling when fired, allowing muzzle loading without damaging the rifling.
Cartridge - Significantly simplified loading, increasing rate of fire. Allowed for Breach-loading design, birth of modern guns.
With the advent of the cartridge, various things like the revolvers you typically think of in westerns became possible. This was when the gun really started replacing swords as the primary killing tool, because it allowed you to fire multiple shots before an enemy had time to close the distance.
As these developments were going on Armor was becoming increasingly rare in for several reasons. It was far less effective in the face of gun developments, it was heavy and expensive to include in military standard issue and was phased out by the American civil war. As a result those who chose to wear it would face a stigma as cowards. Breastplates were in use in the early 19th century, but had been phased out by the end. Ballistic vests were experimented heavily, but weren't widely adopted until new materials and increased manufacturing capabilities made them practical in the early 20th century. However, armor adapted to stop high velocity bullets in free flight operate on different physical principles than that meant to stop wielded stabbing implements, which is a problem still being researched today. The most common solution is to simply layer the two types of armor together.
Not sure how you want to treat bullets for your magic guns (if you intend to have ammunition at all), but hopefully this will give you some ideas for the progression/stages of your arms race.
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@lt_murgen: I was not aware of that historical division. It makes some of those old Westerns make a lot more sense now.
I've been doing research on History, but mostly I'm using it as inspiration and just building the timeline organically. The presence of Magic affects how people understand the world, transport goods, build towns, etc. I'm just going to have to see what it looks like after I model the ripples on the pond.
@Quantus(In regards to the arms race): Thanks for the refresher. :)
It's been a few years since my "War & Society" in college, so I thought I remembered the flow of the real life Arms Race, but that picture you painted is a bit clearer than what I remembered.
Not sure how you want to treat bullets for your magic guns (if you intend to have ammunition at all), but hopefully this will give you some ideas for the progression/stages of your arms race.
I'm not sure how ammunition will factor in either. That's one of them big stones on the pond.
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When guns first came around to the Western civilizations, they didn't replace Swords, they replaced Bows and Arrows (or crossbows), but were still too inaccurate, slow to reload, and sensitive to moister. We're talking muskets.
Yes. I still find it amusing that the Three Musketeers were known for their sword fighting rather than their musket shooting. . . Of course I am easily amused.
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Yes. I still find it amusing that the Three Musketeers were known for their sword fighting rather than their musket shooting. . . Of course I am easily amused.
They use muskets pretty effectively during the siege-of-Rochelle sequence, iirc. Some day I am going to do a riff on that, because "we need somewhere to talk where nobody can overhear us, let's go have breakfast in the middle of a battle" is a moment of crowning awesome.