Does anyone other than me find this power largely inappropriate in the game?
For example, let's say I'm designing some kind of a BBEG. I want for him to be extremely badass, tougher than even Mythic Toughness. Because of God-mode, there just isn't any place for designing any other super-Toughness powers. Why even bother? God-mode is available. I can't ever have a Toughness power cost more than -7 Refresh because -8 is invulnerable.
It's also placed in some highly unsatisfying places in the book. For example, Ogres have Physical Immunity to magic. I mean, does that seriously mean that an Ogre could basically walk into a meeting of the entire White Council and the thousand or so wizards could unload enough magic to level a city and he'd just shrug it off? GM Fiat here is not really a satisfying solution.
Sure - I can get that Ogres are very tough against magic. But they're also nowhere near heavyweights, they shouldn't get to laugh in the face of the entire Council if they unleash their full power.
Similarly, some other creatures I don't think deserve Physical Immunity. Sure, the Loup-Garou is badass. Sure, it could rip apart an entire police department. So, can it survive a nuke? Ten? Fifty? The full might of Queen Mab if she doesn't use some sort of a Catch-satisfying ability?
Again, GM Fiat is not a good solution. As a GM, I can already do anything. The rules in the book are there to tell me what I should and should not do.
So, opinions on this? If you share my opinion, did anyone come up with some sort of a custom power for other high-end Toughness abilities?
My main response is that Physical Immunity may prevent damage, but it doesn't make you unbeatable or protect you from being disabled. For example, I would expect the Senior Council's response to an Ogre attack to be a bunch of earth evocations, opening up a 50-foot pit in the ground right under the ogre's feet, then filling it in with dirt and walking away. The ogre was never directly attacked by magic, so his physical immunity doesn't matter.
OP - you could just use spirit to explode or wipe the mind of a character with physical immunity.
The way I see it Taer, you're the one putting efficacy over story. You totally could make a toughness power that is greater than mythic and make it cost 8 refresh. There is no reason not to. But you aren't willing to, because you feel that you must get the better value out of those 8 refresh. Where is that coming from? Why do you feel that way?
And yes, the way I feel is that some things (like the loup-garou, and shagnasty) really should be that powerful. There are some creatures that are simply overwhelming, that are an unstoppable force that's going to get what it wants. Japanese horror is a great example of this (Juon is the last one I've seen, but it's been a long while) and it can be used to create a lot of tension and fear.
Psychomancy is Thaumaturgy. Without Kemmlerian Magic, how can you inflict Mental stress?
Would you allow for total immunities to other things? How about Social and Mental tracks? How about an immunity to Physical Blocks or Maneuvers(call it "Unstoppable Force" or whatever)? How about an immunity to assessments("Null Presence")? Or Declarations(Reality Warper)?
If any of those would be considered inappropriate, why do Attacks get a pass? What makes them special?
As a note, could the people here cut back on the insults? I'm neither an idiot nor a munchkin. So, thanks in advance, would be nice.
Note, however, that I'm not asking here whether or not you can beat someone with PI. I'm focusing on whether it's an appropriate ability.
Would you allow for total immunities to other things? How about Social and Mental tracks? How about an immunity to Physical Blocks or Maneuvers(call it "Unstoppable Force" or whatever)? How about an immunity to assessments("Null Presence")? Or Declarations(Reality Warper)?
If any of those would be considered inappropriate, why do Attacks get a pass? What makes them special?
I disagree.
I think that DFRPG is actually pretty hard to break.
Also, just because it isn't a crunchy system doesn't mean that mechanical problems aren't problems. Mythic Toughness + Mythic Recovery is inferior in (very nearly) every possible way to Physical Immunity. That's not a good thing.
PS: I'm pretty sure that forcing someone to concede is literally impossible. It's a player action, not a character one.
Let's say I have a Shapeshifter villain, who has Modular Abilities. Why would he ever assume any other Toughness-based power other than Physical Immunity for the same cost, unless explicitly forbidden? And - if I must explicitly forbid him from assuming it, doesn't it imply it's too good?
@sinker: Just because a problem is easily ignored doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.
Does anyone other than me find this power largely inappropriate in the game?To every Toughness power there is a catch, especially for Physical Immunity. In the case of a BBEG it might be the one thing that is able to kill or disable him, and that is ok inside of a story, as long as the players have an interesting way to get it. The story is going to become less centred around fighting the BBEG and more centred around the quest for finding that one thing that can defeat him. Or the PCs can only foil BBEGs plans, but he lives to fight another day. After all, that is all Harry is able to do with Nicodemus so far.
For example, let's say I'm designing some kind of a BBEG. I want for him to be extremely badass, tougher than even Mythic Toughness. Because of God-mode, there just isn't any place for designing any other super-Toughness powers. Why even bother? God-mode is available. I can't ever have a Toughness power cost more than -7 Refresh because -8 is invulnerable.
It's also placed in some highly unsatisfying places in the book. For example, Ogres have Physical Immunity to magic. I mean, does that seriously mean that an Ogre could basically walk into a meeting of the entire White Council and the thousand or so wizards could unload enough magic to level a city and he'd just shrug it off? GM Fiat here is not really a satisfying solution.If they are throwing their magic directly at the ogre, then yes, he is going to smash his way through them. But as others pointed out, wizards have lots of different ways to use their magic other than point and shoot.
Sure - I can get that Ogres are very tough against magic. But they're also nowhere near heavyweights, they shouldn't get to laugh in the face of the entire Council if they unleash their full power.
Similarly, some other creatures I don't think deserve Physical Immunity. Sure, the Loup-Garou is badass. Sure, it could rip apart an entire police department. So, can it survive a nuke? Ten? Fifty? The full might of Queen Mab if she doesn't use some sort of a Catch-satisfying ability?Yes, it could. And it is not completely immune to anything, it can be hurt, even killed by inherited silver, it's catch. Queen Mab would be able to bind it, as would possibly a nuke if it buried it under a few thousand tons of dirt, but it would not be killed outright. And don't forget, a Loup-Garou is only a Loup-Garou for 3 days of a month, so if you want to do something to it, there is plenty of time to do it.
Again, GM Fiat is not a good solution. As a GM, I can already do anything. The rules in the book are there to tell me what I should and should not do.As I said, it all comes down to the catch, and that is something that the book tells you. I don't really see the need for any other high end toughness powers. Anything other than mystic toughness would make you immune to battlefield weapons, so putting up a physical immunity at that point is more than justified.
So, opinions on this? If you share my opinion, did anyone come up with some sort of a custom power for other high-end Toughness abilities?
Shagnasty(well, another Shagnasty than the one we've seen) died to a nuclear bomb. This implies there is a level of force that can defeat him.I'm not able to go searching for the exact quote/line right now, but I think
And Addictive Saliva doesn't really inflict harm. It's just a super-aspect.Under the "narcotic saliva" ability of the Addictive Saliva power, it says you can also use it as an attack to inflict mental stress. ;D
Holy Touch doesn't deserve a place on that list.Well, Holy Touch can satisfy the catch of some creatures and even if not, it is still weapon 1 against creatures offensive to your faith.
Umm... sounding a bit like dead horse beating here.
It kind of looked like the original poster was a bit frustrated or uncertain about this power and wanted to know how to use it effectively in a game. Later comments have made me uncertain that was the correct way to read this. Taer, do you mind clearing this up? Just posting opinions that disagree with each other isn't particularly useful. If you're actually still looking for how to use this, then I think you'll find some interesting ideas have been posted that could give you new angles to think about.
Note, however, that I'm not asking here whether or not you can beat someone with PI. I'm focusing on whether it's an appropriate ability.
Would you allow for total immunities to other things? How about Social and Mental tracks? How about an immunity to Physical Blocks or Maneuvers(call it "Unstoppable Force" or whatever)? How about an immunity to assessments("Null Presence")? Or Declarations(Reality Warper)?
If any of those would be considered inappropriate, why do Attacks get a pass? What makes them special?
What I'm asking is - does the ability make sense? Does it really make sense that there are entities out there - who are not true heavyweights by any means - that can take the entire nuclear arsenal of the world to the face and not just survive but entirely laugh it off?Vandal Savage and anyone else who is truly immortal; like Nicodemus their bruises and pain (if any) would be aspects rather than stress that can take them out. Sebastian Shaw and anyone or anything else that can absorb a broad range of energy types, including kinetic. Susan Storm, Martial Manhunter and any ghost or spirit or shade or whatever creature doesn't actually have a physical form that can be physically damaged part or all of the time. Beings that, due to their nature, are utterly immune to a form of attack such as fire elementals and dragons being immune to fire, ice beings and forst giants being immune to cold and so on.
Does it really make sense that if the entire White Council worked together on the most potent Heart Exploding spell in existence, spend weeks and weeks sacrificing humans and going full crazy-on black magic to get into the 4 or 5-digit range as far as shifts go, creating a spell powerful enough to wipe a country off the map, a freaking Ogre(not a heavyweight by any means) could just shrug it off?Ogres don't have immunity to magic. They have immunity to physical damage directly caused by mortal magic. Don't think of it as infinite resistance; think of it as no resistance. Direct physical force by mortal magic just goes through them like a sword goes through a ghost.
This is one of the bits of advice that I've seen repeated often in my GMing days. Do everything you can not to say "No". Say "Yes, but". The "But" is, make the challenge tougher. Make it much harder. Don't make it entirely impossible. PI just outright says "No, you can't do that, find a different way". And it annoys me.PLAYER: Can I melt the ice golem by throwing cold spells at it?
3) What I'm asking is - does the ability make sense?
Does it really make sense that there are entities out there - who are not true heavyweights by any means - that can take the entire nuclear arsenal of the world to the face and not just survive but entirely laugh it off?
Does it really make sense that if the entire White Council worked together on the most potent Heart Exploding spell in existence, spend weeks and weeks sacrificing humans and going full crazy-on black magic to get into the 4 or 5-digit range as far as shifts go, creating a spell powerful enough to wipe a country off the map, a freaking Ogre(not a heavyweight by any means) could just shrug it off?
stuff
"This power is not necessarily absolute; plot-device-level threats still have the potential to harm the creature even if the catch is not satisfied (e.g. a nuclear bomb, the combined magics of the entire senior council, etc.)"
I really don't understand why this is a big deal.
GMs point blank can allow or not allow things in their games.
I won't allow a character with a catchless PI. In fact, I won't allow a character without a very specific PI.
Conversely, I /would/ allow an 8 refresh toughness power.
So... that kind of blows the powergaming argument out of the water. PI is not "better" than an 8 refresh toughness power if the GM won't let you take PI.
Why is this so difficult?
Again, GM Fiat is not a good solution. As a GM, I can already do anything. The rules in the book are there to tell me what I should and should not do.I think you are looking at this from the wrong direction, if you feel that you have to pull the GM card to prevent the abuse of powers like Physical Immunity. Consider the following: "The Mythic level is nearly always reserved for potent NPCs, as is the special Physical Immunity ability"(YS184). Reworded, this basically implies that Physical Immunity can only be used by GM fiat (rather than the alternative that it can be used except when GM fiat disallows it). So the rules already say that you should not allow it. You may over-rule them, but if you don't want players to use it, the rules have your back.
These moments introduce challenge. When you get to the other side of these moments there's a great sense of satisfaction. PI should not be a brick wall that the players slam into and then have no way of passing though. There should be many other ways to get past the situation, and most often there are as pointed out above.Why not turn it around? Take the PC with PI as the GM's challenge. The player (assuming it is a PC with PI and a narrow catch) would be constantly trying to prevent the GM from getting past him, so there will be greater satisfaction when the GM's NPCs can get past the situation. As a GM, I feel that as long as there is a in-game plausible reason why he is so powerful, then I am more than willing to accept it.
If we're talking about PI with a narrow catch, then I might see an issue with a player taking it, but then they usually run into the thematic issue anyways. "What makes you so incredibly powerful that you can laugh off all physical damage?" Not a lot of reasonable answers I can think of, and very few of them would make for remotely interesting characters.
PLAYER: Can I melt the ice golem by throwing cold spells at it?
GM: No
PLAYER: Can I kill the Acid Elemental by throwing acid at it?
GM: No
PLAYER: Can I open my manacles with my lockpicking skills even though they have been magically welded instead of having a lock?
GM: No
PLAYER: Can I socially fast-talk the gelatinous cube into letting me pass even though it's mindless, blind and deaf?
GM: No
PLAYER: Can I bribe the traps in the dungeon into not closing if I step on them?
GM: No
The prevailing opinion on Physical Immunity seems to be that it is entirely based upon GM fiat. If that is the case, then it should not be given a refresh cost.
Are we talking about D&D? There were ways to pierce elemental immunity there.
If your lockpicking has a supernatural nature to it? Sure, why not?
Then grant it a mind, learn a telepathy power, succeed on an <social skill of your choice> check, there you go.
Ok, I have one last comment that I hope is helpful for everyone, but its the last thing I tossing into this because it seems to have turned into "but I don't like it. You shouldn't like it either".
As a GM there is an enormous difference between "Can I do X?" and "Can X be done?" The answer to the second one should almost always be "Yes, but" (and even in the case of physical immunity, the answer is yes but you need to find it's catch). The answer to the first one can absolutely be "no."
"Can I lockpick the welded manacles?" the answer is no. "Can the manacles be opened via lockpicking?" on the other hand yields the answer of "yes, but it would have to be supernatural in nature."
GMs should strive to create a world where anything is possible, but that doesn't mean any given PC can do anything at any given time. "Can it be done?" is not the same question as "Can I do it?" And I think your answers above are to the question "Can it be done?" rather than "Can I do it?"
@BumblingBear: That's part of the problem. The cost of Physical Immunity does not accurately reflect the challenge that it provides.
Ballpark figures that I think might be reasonable. Not expecially well-thought-out, just a quick sketch. Feedback wanted.
2 refresh for immunity to electricity.
4 refresh for immunity to magic.
8 refresh for immunity to everything except cold iron.
16 refresh for immunity to everything except a Sword Of The Cross.
I did not expect to see the words "very narrowly useful" used here.
That's kind of an odd comparison, since you are clearly comparing a 3 point catch in mythic to a 0 point catch in Physical Immunity... Which is not remotely the same thing...
It's definitely counter RAW, as RAW says that they both work in the exact same way.It's not entirely counter-RAW, though it does rely more heavily on the spirit of the RAW, rather than the literal interpretation thereof. Consider the following:
But the system encourages people to favor utility over story, which is odd given the nature of the game.I see this as the system encouraging people to balance utility together with story, instead of focusing on story altogether, which is in keeping with the nature of the game.
Good game designers incentivize the behaviour they want to promote. Bad game designers incentivize other things, then complain about metagaming.
The question is never why not take PI but why take PI?If the question is why take PI, then the correct answer to that would be why not?
If the question is why take PI, then the correct answer to that would be why not?
Because it doesn't suit your high concept.The question still remains why not?
As a GM you probably don't want defensive powers soaking up most of a PCs refresh. I saw someone do that in a White Wolf Vampire game once. One of the players min-maxed his way to the most defensive tricks he could get. I was playing a well rounded character and just outperformed him for quite awhile. Once he got enough experience to buy a reasonable offense though, that all reversed and suddenly I was left in the dust while he just waded through things.I think the player was willing to play the long game and wait for his investment to pay off. I find that so-called well-rounded characters often are more about instant gratification than anything else. If someone is willing to wait for his day in the sun and aiming for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I think it shows a commitment to game in the long term.
The high concept can always be tweaked to accomodate having PI. If you want PI, take it and then come up with some reason why your character has it.Can they? For a high concept to give a reason for physical immunity it's going to say something extreme about your character. You're probably a ghost, spirit, or other intangible being. That's fairly limiting.
Supernatural powers also come at a greater price beyond the simple math of your character’s refresh rate. No supernatural ability may exist in a vacuum—it must come about due to specific reasons rooted in your character’s concept. At the very least, this usually means that the supernatural abilities must clearly derive from your character’s high concept (page 54), but other requirements may exist as well—see the Types & Templates chapter...for the particulars for each character type.
Can they? For a high concept to give a reason for physical immunity it's going to say something extreme about your character. You're probably a ghost, spirit, or other intangible being. That's fairly limiting.They can. The character can just as easily have physical immunity because God said so, or fell into a river and got washed up on the banks like that. The High Concept can simply even be Invulnerable Man.
They can. The character can just as easily have physical immunity because God said so, or fell into a river and got washed up on the banks like that. The High Concept can simply even be Invulnerable Man.I suspect many groups would simply say that doesn't fit their game style.
But let's say it was allowed...we have Invulnerable Man...who's only unnatural ability seems to be physical invulnerability. His concept locks him in to a narrow set of powers. Probably wouldn't be too terribly an opponent. And he become easy once others find his Catch.I never claimed that Invulerable Man would be too terrible an opponent. All I was saying is that it is not that difficult to come up with a high concept with ties to Physical Immunity.
You could go further with concepts I suppose...I'm Mary Sue makes for one which can do anything. But do you really want to play a Mary Sue? Personally, I think flaws help define the characters.
Consider an arbitrary level of Recovery, that healed all damage as you received it. How would it differ from PI?
If a player asked me this same question (I.E. "I want to heal all damage instantly and as it happens")looking to buy powers my immediate response (and that I would guess of many people) would be "You're looking for the Physical Immunity power. Take that and simply "Reskin" it as a ridiculously fast healing." Would I be wrong?
@InferrumVeritas + toturi: My opinion on the matter is that fluff requirements should never be used to balance out mechanics. It's bad juju.
The way i've always seen Physical Immunity is the character is Immune to anything you could reasonably get your hands on, not Immune to everything, Period. I drew this conclusion based on two facts:
1) Looking at the other toughness based powers, they slowly and steadily make you Immune to things that could be carried by one person. Inhuman Toughness makes you invulnerable to small weapons, Supernatural makes you invulnerable to conventional weapons and Mythical makes you invulnerable to Military grade weapons.
1) In the Dresden universe magic follows the laws of physics, and if physics has taught me anything, its that everything breaks if you hit it hard enough.
For example, the Ogre who is Immune to Magic mentioned above. Throw that thing at a single Wizard and he's going to have to get creative with his spellcraft, as he simply can't bring enough mystical force to bare against the Ogre's resilience. On the other hand throw that Ogre at the Senior White Council members and a dozen Wardens, something you usually wont see in a game, and that Ogre is going to be blown to chunks, with those chunks blown to bits and then finally those bits pulverized into individual particles!
So, if I'm being chanced by something with Physical Immunity to physical damage, I'm not going to be able to hurt it with anything I can get my hands on with any degree of ease. What do I do? Look for the closest building I can drop on it, or drop it off of, bonus points for Invoking the Cube-Square Law if it has Hulking Size!
@Silverblaze: I really don't think that this game is easy to break. Thaumaturgy is the only real hole in the balance, I think.
Just because optimization is possible, doesn't mean that the system is unbalanced. An optimized Chest Deep character with 7 accuracy, 7 defence, and weapon rating 7 can still be challenged in a fight, it just requires opposition more suitable for a Snorkelling game.
@sinker: The point I was trying to make was that Toughness, Recovery, and Immunity all have the sole purpose of helping you deal with physical stress. Immunity does that infinitely well, so it trumps both Recovery and Toughness combined.
The people who don't think the game is balanced play it like it D&D, where everyone makes one piddly attack, and all stats are taken at face value.I think the beat cop killing a supernatural monster by having enough FPs + stacking Aspects is taking all stats at face value. Aspects and FPs are part of the character's stats.
In this game, a beat cop can kill a supernatural monster by having enough fate points and/or stacking aspects.
@Sanctaphrax: Okay, you have me there. Someone would want to play Superman. I'm pretty sure concepts like that don't have the longevity that a similar concept with some level of toughness instead would.
@Silverblaze: I had some similar thoughts but hadn't really formed them well enough to write down. My basic thought was to do like some other games do and segregate it out into several separate areas and powers associated with those areas. If you wanted to be immune to a bunch of things you'd buy multiple powers.
General fatigue has never seemed like an important limitation to me.
I mean, how often do players actually get told, "you need to rest now" for reasons other than clearing stress/consequences?