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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: zerogain on May 20, 2011, 08:43:43 PM

Title: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: zerogain on May 20, 2011, 08:43:43 PM
We've had an interesting turn in my game. One player has a Pure Mortal character, and in the midst of the most recent story the person who was supposed to be her father appears, and the wizard determines that he is not as he seems. There's a tussle and the illusion is stripped away, and viola there is a faerie lord standing there in place of the Pure Mortal's father.

My intent was that he was an impostor, but the player has chosen that this person really is her character's father. As she has yet to officially accept that she is a Changeling she is still using the Pure Mortal template (and benefit).

Now that that's been done, I realize that he has given her a great many gifts over the years. If you think about it, almost half her life is a gift from him.

EDIT: I do not mean conception. Her trouble has always been revolving around Daddy's interference.  She's a cop, he's deputy chief of police. Again, he wasn't originally a fae,  so this may become overcomplicated. Please leave those questions to my group. Regardless he has always been a shameless gift giver, and hell, for the evening in question she accepted a dress and tickets to the event the party needed access to.

So here's the question, how do debts and gifts with the fae work if the recipient is (a) unaware of the gift giver's true nature, and (b) the gift giver's direct offspring.

Secondary question, how does the debt actually work?
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: Bruce Coulson on May 20, 2011, 08:49:52 PM
He could well be a Pure Mortal, having unconsciously chosen mortality some time ago.

In legend, not knowing the true nature of the gift giver does not exempt the recipient from owing a debt.  And it would make sense for Fae to bind their offspring (even mortal) with debts of obligation, so that they can have greater influence in the mortal world.

Being a direct offspring simply makes it easier for the Fae to give such gifts.
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: UmbraLux on May 20, 2011, 08:58:17 PM
Secondary question, how does the debt actually work?
I'd use it as an aspect.  In the case of most fae, it's probably tied to their high concept...making compels against the aspect fairly 'serious'.  :)
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: devonapple on May 20, 2011, 08:58:59 PM
If you think about it, almost half her life is a gift from him.

I wouldn't apply *that* logic to the situation. Saddling a character with a predetermined genetic debt of obligation to an unknown parent seems fishy.

What isn't clear is *how* this Fey "has given her a great many gifts over the years."
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: sinker on May 20, 2011, 09:36:51 PM
What isn't clear is *how* this Fey "has given her a great many gifts over the years."

I would assume that he's referring to the idea that this person likely acted as her father for many years, giving freely as a father might. That would indeed incur a great deal of debt.
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: Becq on May 20, 2011, 10:14:18 PM
My viewpoint on how the concept of Fae gifts/debt/bargains applies to this situation goes something like this:

1) Any time someone accepts a gift from a Fae, they are granting the Fae a measure of power over them.  The impression I get is that by default, Fae have very little power over mortals; that is, their powers are weakened when used against them.  I see this as a form of threshold, which is hard for Fae to get past until the mortal 'invites them in' by accepting a gift.

2) That aside, the gifts themselves do not incur any formal debt.  Rather, debt results from favors accepted or bargains agreed to.  It need not be obvious that you are negotiating with a Fae or even that you are agreeing to a bargain.  For example, say you are watching a ball game with Jimmy the disguised Fae.  The doorbell rings, and it's the pizza guy.  Jimmy tells you to relax; he'll take care of the bill and you can owe him one.  If you agree, then you now own a Fae a Favor, whether you realize it or not.

3) Even so, (pure) mortals are not as bound by debts as supernatural types are.  For example, Dresden was bound because he swore to repay on his Power.  If he defaulted, he'd then actually lose some portion of his magical power.  A Fae literally *can't* default, because to do so would be against their inherent nature.  When a pure mortal defaults, then I think at worse the favor basically counts as a gift, and the mortal is in the situation describe in #1.  Which may not be a good thing, of course, but it's not quite so bad as the Dresden example.

Back to the OP's scenario.  First of all, I don't think that the very conception would count as anything.  After all, at worst the character *is* the gift, since there was nobody to recieve the gift when it was given.  Of course, since then there are likely a great number of times that the father slipped in hidden 'bargains'.  But he really doesn't have much of a hold on her, since she offered no collateral, as it were.  She has opened herself to his power, but nothing more.  Either that, of she could take on an aspect (or even a Trouble) to reflect her feeling of indebtedness.

The situation changes if she begins to embrace her Changeling side.  At that point, her nature would begin to change, and any bargains made from then on would carry more strength.  Teaching her powers might count as bargains, etc.
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: SunlessNick on May 21, 2011, 02:43:45 AM
Also, a number of the things he's given over the years could be interpreted as his fulfilling an obligation he took on when he assumed the role of father.  Or alternatively, since he's given those gifts as the character's father, is he implicitly bound only to seek repayments that a father might reasonably ask of a daughter, rather than a faerie of an indebted mortal?
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 21, 2011, 03:55:05 PM
Also, a number of the things he's given over the years could be interpreted as his fulfilling an obligation he took on when he assumed the role of father.  Or alternatively, since he's given those gifts as the character's father, is he implicitly bound only to seek repayments that a father might reasonably ask of a daughter, rather than a faerie of an indebted mortal?

Yes.  It's like how Harry doesn't necessarily have to repay Lea for some of the stuff she does for him only for specific favors he asks of her in an implicit bargain.
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 21, 2011, 03:58:31 PM
Yes.  It's like how Harry doesn't necessarily have to repay Lea for some of the stuff she does for him only for specific favors he asks of her in an implicit bargain.

But that's because his mother bargained with her to be his god-mother.

Richard
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: Tedronai on May 21, 2011, 05:49:31 PM
Many of the favours Lea grants to Dresden are 'pre-payed' by his mother.  Others are simply undertaken without his input, or even without his knowledge because doing so is in Lea's interests. (healing in the graveyard, a tunnel through the smoke, guarding the nevernever)
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 21, 2011, 06:39:57 PM
But that's because his mother bargained with her to be his god-mother.

Richard

Right, but the favors done as god-mother are not paid for by Harry.  His mom bargained for one favor (just a big one).  The individual favors and obligations that come from this are not treated individually.

Same with a fairy father.
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: sinker on May 21, 2011, 06:48:03 PM
Potentially the same with a fairy father.

Something to consider is that there are stories of fairies abducting children to lovingly raise them as their own. Perhaps her father simply felt the urge to raise a child.
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: LokiTM on May 21, 2011, 07:55:00 PM
I really can't see tricking someone in to a debt. You find a gold coin in your bed. You keep it. Ha ha! You owe some fae a big debt!

Seems to me there has to be some form of agreement there, even if somewhat implicit.
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: Obsid on May 21, 2011, 08:14:52 PM
Being her father already puts him in a position of power over her. Raising her also puts him in a position of power over her. The gifts (Holiday presents, regular goods, life necessities) are a part of raisin her.

This position of power is not a debt per se. Fairies operate under the old way. A man is a lord of his own castle, his wife is his servant, and his children are his slaves. The specifics vary, but the idea that children are naturally subservient to their parents is pretty consistent. It's a status much like patron-client or lord-vassal. The power he has over her would be similar to what a Mab has over Lea, (or Harry for that matter) only significantly scaled down. He would not own her. She would not have explicit obligations to him. But she would have implicit subservience (unless she disowns him, or he acknowledges her independence).

That said, we are talking about a Fae here. He's had a lot of opportunities to make bargains with her, even if she didn't understand what they were. For example, instead of giving her an allowance, he could lend her money. He could give her candies, toys, and what have you saying things like, "trade you," and if she asks what he gets back he could say vague things like "I'll decide later." It would seem more playful than anything else to a child, after all. And if on any instance she said something like, "I'd do anything for..." or "I'd trade my life for..." he could simply give her whatever it is, and say, "deal."
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: sinker on May 22, 2011, 05:23:05 AM
Something occurred to me along the same lines I was saying earlier. What if he's just trying to raise his progeny the best he can? Outside of the Nevernever he isn't the all powerful being he was. Even if he has greater glamors he can't create something lasting. I suppose it's relatively easy to get the basics, Food and shelter and such, through basic trickery (I.E. Steal it while veiled, pay for it with "money" or make bargains with mortals), but what about the big things? When she wants a car or similar, something expensive and lasting. I imagine it's suspicious to simply drop $25,000 cash for a car these days, especially if it went missing later, and you couldn't just steal it because that might have repercussions later. So the interesting question is, did daddy Fae get a day job?
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: Obsid on May 22, 2011, 12:09:15 PM
Something occurred to me along the same lines I was saying earlier. What if he's just trying to raise his progeny the best he can? Outside of the Nevernever he isn't the all powerful being he was. Even if he has greater glamors he can't create something lasting. I suppose it's relatively easy to get the basics, Food and shelter and such, through basic trickery (I.E. Steal it while veiled, pay for it with "money" or make bargains with mortals), but what about the big things? When she wants a car or similar, something expensive and lasting. I imagine it's suspicious to simply drop $25,000 cash for a car these days, especially if it went missing later, and you couldn't just steal it because that might have repercussions later. So the interesting question is, did daddy Fae get a day job?

FaeDad the Illusionist. FaeDad the supermodel. FaeDad the legendary supermodel. FaeDad the actor. FaeDad the alternative Actor. FaeDad the phantom thief. I imagine 3 and 6 would be most likely. Why make illusory money when you can use your illusions to get rid of every defense in the mortal world?

Alternatively, he could have been planning this for a long time. Playing the stock market for a couple hundred years, leaving money in banks and such. When you're immortal, you don't have to be good at investing, you just have to be thorough. Eventually something will pay off big time. (he can get the initial money through any of the means above or more)
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: finnmckool on May 22, 2011, 01:31:41 PM
I would simplify things for yourself and the character. Give the dad a goal. He wants x from his daughter. Make it something the character doesn't want, but maybe even not a necesarily bad thing. Like he wants her to accept her place at his side blah blah blah. Doing so would, of course make her a non-player character. So she doesn't want that. So he gets in Fae tizzy and starts using all the gifts he's given her as a handle on her, the way Mab used Harry's debt to keep him in her clutches until she got what she wanted.

This way you've set up some things. Lots of story possibilities and a fun prod for your characters. A deus ex machina to bail her out if needs be (but SHE owes HIM so she won't want him to but that also means...). A resource NO ONE wants to use, but may if things are bad enough. AND because he's got a specific goal in mind and the debt is just a means to achieve that goal there is the possibility of her doing something that will allow him to release the balance owed.

And an occasional story hook since she owes him, he can literally MAKE her do some things as he wants (like Mab freezing Harry's eye juice or making him stab his own hand, though those might be a bit cruel and overt for a dad).

Don't know if that answers your question but I hope it helps solve your problem.
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: tetrasodium on June 04, 2011, 01:51:22 AM
for the evening in question she accepted a dress and tickets to the event the party needed access to.
spoiler from small favor
(click to show/hide)
Another one from changes
(click to show/hide)

Nonspoiler version I think that necessities are able to trump the rules binding fae & that a small thing could potentially maybe cover a small past wrong/breach of etiquette if the recipient could have been considered the host. also it's possible that setting the record straight skirts the rules (spoiler forget the book)
(click to show/hide)
  definately at least some types of needs seem to be special cases, seemingly those related to the needs of the summer/winter courts. another example
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: Richard_Chilton on June 06, 2011, 02:08:57 PM
Going with the "using a daughter for a plan", there's an old Mercedes Lackey book where there's a elf lord with a half blood mortal daughter.  The lord is unseelie and a big nasty and at one point his daughter says "Look, there's no profit in that - we aren't doing it".  Then her father took control of her, and her mortal magic (a different flavour than elf magic, able to do different things) and made her body do exactly what he wanted.

How?

Back when she was too young to know any better, he cast spells on her and made deals with her.  When a father asks a 4 year old, or a 5 year old, or an eight year old "Will you do anything for me?" he's going to get a "yes".  If he phrases it right (and what centuries old manipulator couldn't do that?) so he can get her to agree to what he might need her to do then he can get the kid to agree to practically anything and then 20 or 30 years later call enforce the agreement.

Which is a very nasty thing to do to a PC - but a great hook for an NPC villain.  One who doesn't want to hurt people or break the laws of magic, but back when he/she was a kid good old Uncle <blah> got him/her to agree to things and it turns out that Uncle <blah> is a fae or other creature of the Nevernever.  Now he/she has to commit those crimes because Uncle <blah> asked "If I buy you an ice cream, will you help me take over the city?".

As for a source of resources - I can see any sidhe getting all the money he wants.  Would a billionaire pay a million dollars so his daughter would look perfect for her wedding day?  Would another rich man pay $$$$ for the ability to play an instrument/paint/dance/whatever at a world class level (like those poor mortals in the Winter Court swing band Harry stumbles over when he first meets the winter lady)?

And how about just tricking people - Bernie Madoff swindled billions without needing Fae magic to do it.  A good con job can take in $$$$.  In fact, here's a real life example of one that might get hundreds of millions - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_International_Treasury_Control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_International_Treasury_Control) - which (according to one source I found) seemed to be revolving around getting memorandums of understanding on deals worth billions and then getting loans (or selling privately placed bonds) backed by those agreements.

Since money matters to mortals and not to fairies, I see the Winter and Summer courts having slush funds.  A "You want to pay some games with the mortals? Here's some money.  Do you want a hundred dollars? A million dollars? Take what you need" type fund.  Maybe only only the nobles would have access to it, but I can't see the Lady of Summer having to run a con job to stay in that hotel in Summer Knight.

Richard
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: dger on June 12, 2011, 07:35:57 AM
I would absolutely say that ignorance is no excuse.  That is what most if not all fairy tales are about.  Discounting the Disney versions, they are warnings about the fae.  Don't take apples (or other "gifts") from strangers.  Don't fail to invite a fairy or she'll put you into an enchanted sleep.  Don't eat pomegranates in the underworld (not fae, but same vein).
Also, the fae follow rules, but they are FAE rules; incomprehensible to the minds of mortals (or anything else probably).  All that really matters is if the fairy in question truly and to the depths of its soul believes there is a debt.  If the father loves his daughter, there might not be anything.  If she is a tool, then yes everything he has done for her might be considered in the balance owed.
I enjoy playing the fae as almost haphazard and watch my in the know players try in vain to see the logic.  IC, its there even if not OOC.
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: JustADude on June 13, 2011, 04:35:19 AM
I enjoy playing the fae as almost haphazard and watch my in the know players try in vain to see the logic.  IC, its there even if not OOC.

Sooo... basically the exact opposite of the Idiot Ball way most people seem to handle NPCs?
Title: Re: Debt, Gifts, and Offspring
Post by: dger on June 13, 2011, 05:45:13 AM
I try to pass the idiot ball to someone else a soon as possible.  I fancy my self an author to be (read Jim's live journal, its excellent, Thanks Jim!) so character motivation is very important to me.  Especially NPCs.  If I don't know whats going on with the NPCs, I can't expect my players to figure it out like they should.  Sometimes I get too obsessive about it though.
Any way, on topic, those fae are CWAZY PEOPLE!