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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ways and means on May 17, 2011, 02:59:07 AM

Title: True Believer in Evil
Post by: ways and means on May 17, 2011, 02:59:07 AM
I was wondering could a true believer satanist work as a character concept? what about holy symobls which represent profanity for other faiths like baal who was holy for the Mesopatanians (I think) but a demon for christianity.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: JayTee on May 17, 2011, 03:11:56 AM
I wouldn't think so, True Faith in canon is stressed many times as faith in a higher power, a greater good for whole of mankind. The opposite of that (profane) to me would be Outsider stuff.

You could do a Sponsored Magic-type deal with an Outsider with a sense of irony and have opposing "Powers" such as "Quash Thy Hand" "Wickedness" or "Profane Touch" which have similar effects, but debuff your enemies instead of buffing you, representing how Outsiders warp and break down reality around them.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Tedronai on May 17, 2011, 03:55:38 AM
Dresden exerts the power of his Faith in Magic itself.
Baal would likely be one of the 'Old Gods' that, having lost much of their power, now lie in sleep or affect the world to a much smaller degree than they once did.

So, yeah, I don't think that a True Believer necessarily has to believe in the White God to gain power from their Faith.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: JayTee on May 17, 2011, 04:11:04 AM
Oh dear, I seem to have misinterpreted the question. I was under the impression you were asking if Someone who worships an EVIL god could have GOOD powers.

Yes, that seems perfectly legit to me, Sanya after all is Agnostic, but still gets all the sweet perks. You might have to put a bit of a spin on it "Last True Believer of Baal" for example, given the demonizing of the name.

On the other hand, Belief is a powerful force in the Dresdenverse, its possible that since so many people BELIEVE that Baal is a demon, he might have actually BECOME a demon. Ultimately I think it can go either way, but its a grey area for sure in my books.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: SunlessNick on May 17, 2011, 05:46:32 AM
Well Baal isn't really a name, it just means lord, master or god (depending on the language).  Even Yahweh would almost certainly have been called Baal Hebru in some quarters.  On the other hand it's a very well known word, and one that's popularly imagined as a name, so I could see a demon adopting it as a means to get customers.  On the gripping hand, I can think of at least a dozen old gods - some good, some evil - that could legitmately claim it as a title, so it might be like the overpublished rituals that don't work any more.  Invoking "Baal" as too scattershot and won't reach anyone in particular.


'K I've drifted there.  Back on topic, you could take the debt/agenda advice of Sponsored Magic and apply it to other powers, including maybe faith, so the deity/demon is giving you strength and guidance in exchange for worship and following its agenda.  And depending on their being in question, there's no reason why it has to be a git about the deal.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: ways and means on May 17, 2011, 10:05:39 AM
I was under the interpretation that true faith powers didn't come from a respective diety but from strong belief so I thought faith might be enough to justify any type of true believer.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Taran on May 17, 2011, 12:16:37 PM
I was under the interpretation that true faith powers didn't come from a respective diety but from strong belief so I thought faith might be enough to justify any type of true believer.

I agree.  I can also see power through faith in ideals such as Love, Hate, Law, Chaos, as well as any of the gods.  This is why Holy Symbols work regardless of their religion and why Harry can use his pentacle against vampires.

As long as it fits the "theme" of beleif/faith, I'd allow any true beleiver powers and go so far as to let Players take Righteousness.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: evileeyore on May 17, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Oh dear, I seem to have misinterpreted the question. I was under the impression you were asking if Someone who worships an EVIL god could have GOOD powers.

I don't see True Faith as being either Good or Evil, it simply is.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 17, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
Here's my take on it - based on the novels, not any real life opinions I have.

In the DV, followers of evil get "power now" types of rewards.  Evil is the great shortcut when it comes the bad things helping you.  Want to death curse someone and you don't have time to learn magic? Then you do a rite that helps The Walker Behind and someone dies.  Want real power - including being able to live until something kills you? Then take up that coin and share your body with a Fallen Angel.  Tired of watching the bad guys skate on those charges just because they have good lawyers? Then become Hexenwolves with a demonic co-pilot and kill those bastards.

In short, it's "Go evil and get your reward now, not later" because the forces of evil are actively recruiting the morally weak.

On the other hand, the forces of good are all "do good now and when you die we'll reward you". You don't see angels going around "tempting" people to be good.  You don't get bribes for or make deals with the forces of good.  If you're not good for the sake of good then they hope you see the light - but they don't offer "coins of goodness" to the nickel heads and get into a bidding war with hell over someone's soul.

The swords? They aren't bribes.  You have to be the right person before you get offered one.  They are tools that a few people get offer, not rewards or bribes, and they come with a strong obligation - you commit to putting heaven's work ahead of your life and family.

We could get into a debate over whether part X of a religion is good or evil (as seen by outsiders) but the books make that irrelevant.  The existence of an agnostic knight shows that the forces of good are concerned with motives and actions - not dogma.

So when it comes to followers of evil, I'd give them other powers (including creature features and sponsored magic) and maybe minions rather than adopting the True Faith stuff.

Richard
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: ways and means on May 17, 2011, 04:09:32 PM
When you talk about followers of evil you seem to be talking more about selfish nihilists than actual true believers people who only believe in themselves whereas I was talking about people who belived in powers such as chaos and destruction as the ultimate meaningand purpose of reality and that serving these powers is not self serving but serving the greatest good.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Taran on May 17, 2011, 04:40:01 PM
Here's my take on it - based on the novels, not any real life opinions I have.

In the DV, followers of evil get "power now" types of rewards.  Evil is the great shortcut when it comes the bad things helping you.  Want to death curse someone and you don't have time to learn magic? Then you do a rite that helps The Walker Behind and someone dies.  Want real power - including being able to live until something kills you? Then take up that coin and share your body with a Fallen Angel.  Tired of watching the bad guys skate on those charges just because they have good lawyers? Then become Hexenwolves with a demonic co-pilot and kill those bastards.

In short, it's "Go evil and get your reward now, not later" because the forces of evil are actively recruiting the morally weak.

On the other hand, the forces of good are all "do good now and when you die we'll reward you". You don't see angels going around "tempting" people to be good.  You don't get bribes for or make deals with the forces of good.  If you're not good for the sake of good then they hope you see the light - but they don't offer "coins of goodness" to the nickel heads and get into a bidding war with hell over someone's soul.

The swords? They aren't bribes.  You have to be the right person before you get offered one.  They are tools that a few people get offer, not rewards or bribes, and they come with a strong obligation - you commit to putting heaven's work ahead of your life and family.

We could get into a debate over whether part X of a religion is good or evil (as seen by outsiders) but the books make that irrelevant.  The existence of an agnostic knight shows that the forces of good are concerned with motives and actions - not dogma.

So when it comes to followers of evil, I'd give them other powers (including creature features and sponsored magic) and maybe minions rather than adopting the True Faith stuff.

Richard

I don't exactly see it that way.  I see it 2 ways:

1.)I see people worship or make deals with evil beings to gain power and Evil Beings use those people to further their Evil Goals. 

2) Good Beings don't tend to "use" people in the same way, so I see that good people are just good and then Good Beings are drawn to them and offer them rewards because their agendas happen to be the same.  Does that make sense?

So a truly faithful servant of the White God holds all the ideals of the White God, not because the White God promises a reward in the afterlife, but because they believe in those ideals despite the reward.  They might also happen to worship the White God because that God shares the same ideals.  But maybe that's a chicken or the egg argument.

So, if you happen to worship Tyranny, you might have True Faith Powers that are rooted in your beleifs.  You might also start attracting the attention of Beings with similar agendas who might offer you power.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: devonapple on May 17, 2011, 05:06:18 PM
This bears a remarkable similarity to the old "Anti-Paladin" debate in D&D (multiple versions).

Dragon Magazine (D&D 3.x) did a decent job of addressing this issue within their alignment system, creating a "holy" warrior for each alignment rating. What they did was to make sure that they operated in a balanced way, but with enough different powers and abilities that you weren't just playing a paladin with an evil god's name in the Deity box and a different alignment.

But it comes down to what you want at your table.

I was wondering could a true believer satanist work as a character concept? ...

...true faith powers didn't come from a respective diety but from strong belief so I thought faith might be enough to justify any type of true believer ...

I was talking about people who belived in powers such as chaos and destruction as the ultimate meaning and purpose of reality and that serving these powers is not self serving but serving the greatest good.

Well, that's the thing. The greatest good. There's a difference between "the greatest good" and "embracing the inevitable." Destruction and chaos may be the ultimate fate of reality, but it is not necessarily the meaning and purpose. One could make a case that the Fate of the universe is chaos and destruction, but that the Destiny available to its people is to live, love, and do good despite that inevitable destruction.

But this is a philosophical debate. And the players can have all the philosophical discussion they want - the objective is to have a cool character or NPC.

In this respect: do you want True Faith powers that repel or work against "good" things, or do you want the same thing that holy people get, but simply with a different power source and agenda?
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Set Abominae on May 17, 2011, 05:11:51 PM
Here's my take on it - based on the novels, not any real life opinions I have.

In the DV, followers of evil get "power now" types of rewards.  Evil is the great shortcut when it comes the bad things helping you.  Want to death curse someone and you don't have time to learn magic? Then you do a rite that helps The Walker Behind and someone dies.  Want real power - including being able to live until something kills you? Then take up that coin and share your body with a Fallen Angel.  Tired of watching the bad guys skate on those charges just because they have good lawyers? Then become Hexenwolves with a demonic co-pilot and kill those bastards.

In short, it's "Go evil and get your reward now, not later" because the forces of evil are actively recruiting the morally weak.

On the other hand, the forces of good are all "do good now and when you die we'll reward you". You don't see angels going around "tempting" people to be good.  You don't get bribes for or make deals with the forces of good.  If you're not good for the sake of good then they hope you see the light - but they don't offer "coins of goodness" to the nickel heads and get into a bidding war with hell over someone's soul.

The swords? They aren't bribes.  You have to be the right person before you get offered one.  They are tools that a few people get offer, not rewards or bribes, and they come with a strong obligation - you commit to putting heaven's work ahead of your life and family.

We could get into a debate over whether part X of a religion is good or evil (as seen by outsiders) but the books make that irrelevant.  The existence of an agnostic knight shows that the forces of good are concerned with motives and actions - not dogma.

So when it comes to followers of evil, I'd give them other powers (including creature features and sponsored magic) and maybe minions rather than adopting the True Faith stuff.

Richard

To some degree I agree with your line of thinking. It reminds me of Yoda telling Luke that the dark side was quicker, easier, more seductive, but not more powerful.

It's always harder and longer to follow the path of light than the short jog into darkness. We see this demonstrated in human nature over and over again. Good can lead to slow gradual payoffs with a lot of sacrifice along the way, where evil tends to pay off right now, but often ultimately leads to terrible sacrifice later.

That being said, Jim seems to take an approach similar to many settings I've seen (such as the World of Darkness), where the power of belief is far more a factor than the nature and contributions of what is being believed in. For instance in Mage, strong belief could manifest changes in reality, and the stronger the belief, the greater the changes, hence magic and the power of faith. A mage might believe in his own power to create change where the faithful believes in a higher power to create change, but ultimately the strength of the belief was where the real mojo came from. One could see it as an act of faith as opposed to an act of will, but both needing sufficient conviction to effect any change.

In my own spin on it for purposes of this fiction, it could be said that belief is the conduit by which greater powers invest themselves, a kind of symbiosis where the supernatural needs belief to have power, and rewards that belief with power towards ends that are consistent with its goals and nature. But for wizards, that power comes from their lineage and the ability to channel power through their own convictions to effect change (much like the Mage mythos).

Point being, yes, believe in a power enough (either good or evil) and they will respond. Believe in your own power enough and you can do it yourself, for good or for ill, hence the distinction between white and black magic.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Silverblaze on May 17, 2011, 05:37:53 PM
Eternal Debate this is.

Sorry for the yoda speak, but this is a big question for most gamers.  
Should Paladins have a direct foil? Like Angels vs devils - Jedi vs Sith - Milk vs orange juice 8)

I don't think good or evil needs a direct corresponding foe in terms of powers or behavior, but there needs to be a balance.

I don't particularly find a problem with any being capable of free will having True Faith in something, as long as we don't get rediculous.  (go go gadget True Faith in plaster!)

I can even see them having similar powers.  They don't however need to be so simple as opposites of each other.  Often times...as Richard points out: true Faith isn't the best fit for the powers of the character, which doesn't mean "NO!"...it just means think about what fits best.

I'd hazard one thought before allowing this in a game as a GM.  Is this going to be fun for both the player and me; or is this just a way to get True Faith powers without the traditional responsibilities?
Many evil organizations/ religions in games have just as strict rules as the good guys.  Players need to realize this.

I also feel a game full of people with True Faith (not just PC's; but NPC's); a world where 1 out of 15 people have true Fiath...would make it less rare and less special.  Though it could be the theme of a game I suppose.

Bottom Line: do as you will in your game.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 17, 2011, 06:14:13 PM
Just a bit of a follow up:

Most cultures throughout history have had similar definitions of good.  Most anthropologists and socialists all agreed all functional societies more or less have to include the same basic points.  Without "Don't murder, steal, commit adultery, or bear false witness" we can't gather together in groups.  The specifics change but the broad points don't.

Jim appears to have taken that concept and applied it to the forces of good in his books.  Those forces look at the big picture and leave the details to others.  The Knights of the Swords don't get call upon to enforce the fine points of dogma - and my take is that the Big Guy in the DV is nondenominational.

To say "But Joe thinks that he's doing good by sowing death and chaos" another way of saying "Joe is insane and delusional".  Most people with delusions don't just believe them to be true - they know them to be true.  Should everyone who is off his meds get "Faith" powers because he knows that "Blah" talks to him and tells him to slaughter? My view is no, that you need a grounding in reality to have what is known as faith.

If Joe is a warlock who honestly believes that he'll make the world a better place by killing cheerleaders then I can't see him holding of a black court vampire with the power of his Holy Machete of Death the way that Dresden uses his pentacle.  Joe doesn't have faith - he has madness (and several lawbreaker stunts, and maybe a negative refresh) but not faith in a power that exists outside of himself.

And as we discuss this point, we should be focusing on the books as opposed to the real world.  Seriously, can anyone point to a single line in any book where the bad guys had faith as opposed to powers given by their "Dark Master"?

For that matter, my take on the books is that not every wizard can do that pentacle thing that Harry does.  They don't all think of it like Harry does - for some of them it would be like trying to hold off a vampire with a screwdriver or other tool.  It doesn't define their lives like it does for Harry.

Gamewise:
If Faith is tapping into the well of belief, then being the sole person with a faith in <evil cause> won't do it - you need a bigger well to get the water.
If Faith is being rewarded by a higher power, then evil beings don't tend to give the same rewards as good ones - there's a different mindset at work there.
If Faith is "personal magic molded into 'Faith' powers", then you still need to believe that your cause is more than just personal ambition and self enrichment.  You need something to have Faith in before you can shape into power.

On the other hand, the DFRPG police aren't going to kick down your door if Billy the Satanist uses his Dark Faith powers to enslave the Cute Girl Who Never Noticed Him.  From a canon point of view I'll continue to point to the books and say "evil doesn't reward like that" but if you want it in your game then go for it.

Richard
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Silverblaze on May 17, 2011, 06:29:36 PM
A caveat to my post as well.  Faith is not the same as subservience.  If the being worshiping does so out of fear; not belief - free will - or reverence.... True Faith does not apply.

An outsider tried to tempt my true believer to join his cuase in a game a while back.  After a short internal debate my reply was of course : No.

"Any man of the quality you want; will not join you. To break faith in something else means that they are not loyal; nor a true believer and you do not want them.  Anyone who is truly loyal and faithful will not break faith and similarly will not join you.  In short you do not deserve a me."

The being was displeased but could not refute the logic.

Faith is a tenuous difficult thing.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: AlexFallad on May 17, 2011, 09:52:29 PM
On the gripping hand,

Alert the Sector Imperial Fleet that there is a Motie breach of the blockade!

Run for your lives! (Or livable space anyway)
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: SunlessNick on May 18, 2011, 02:08:32 AM
Yes!  Someone got the reference!

There is another angle for evil faith, maybe.  Rather than using demons or old gods, if you compare the "White God" to Ormazd rather than Yahweh, then you could posit a corresponding Ahriman - which makes for an evil god of the same kind of "cut above" guys like Odin that the True Faith powers seem to reach.  Faith in Ahriman would be a faith in evil, corruption, and lies - and as I remarked before, not many people would be vile enough to have a true faith in those things as the rightful ways of the world.  But that's the least dissonant source I can think of for an evil parallel of True Faith.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 18, 2011, 02:28:51 AM
But who could have faith in anything arising from a being that was the anti-thesis of truth?

"Yes, I believe what I do because the Untrue One promised me... He promised... Oh damn I'm screwed."

In a sense you have have to have faith in Ormazd (or Ahura Mazda as he is better known) and then pervert that faith by selecting his opposite number to follow.  To follow Ahriman as he is defined by his foes than by anything Ahriman communicates to you, because by definition Ahriman cannot contain the truth.

Richard
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: SunlessNick on May 18, 2011, 03:54:00 AM
I never suggested it would be a good investment.  :)
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Bruce Coulson on May 18, 2011, 11:27:31 PM
It could be interesting, from a story point of view, to have a LaVey Satanist be on the side of the angels (so to speak).

After all, the tenets of modern Satanism are more or less hedonism and selfishness.  There's nothing wrong, from their written point of view, for someone to help kittens out of trees and little old ladies across the street...if that's what you WANT to do, and it does something for you.  Doing something because it feels good is correct, from LaVey Satanist principles.

So, you could have a  'good' Satanist who has True Faith...although perhaps not from where he thinks it comes from.

I believe C.S. Lewis covered this idea in the last Narnia book in the series.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: ways and means on May 18, 2011, 11:31:13 PM
I was of the opinion that True Faith could mean true faith in anything, or to quote Terry Prattchett Religion isn't necessarily nice.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: devonapple on May 18, 2011, 11:37:56 PM
I was of the opinion that True Faith could mean true faith in anything, or to quote Terry Prattchett Religion isn't necessarily nice.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. And Pratchett is very clever. If you can make it work in a game, let us know how it goes. Don't let other folks discourage you.

But if the community's input is a factor you regard, then the overall opinion seems to indicate that this idea isn't particularly plausible. This can become - almost literally - a religious debate from here, and that's not a productive direction.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: ways and means on May 19, 2011, 12:15:25 AM
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. And Pratchett is very clever. If you can make it work in a game, let us know how it goes. Don't let other folks discourage you.

But if the community's input is a factor you regard, then the overall opinion seems to indicate that this idea isn't particularly plausible. This can become - almost literally - a religious debate from here, and that's not a productive direction.

I will have to keep my nasty true believers Christian then (rather than Aztec or Ancient Egyptian) still though at least that leaves me Witchfinders, Inqusistion members, Crusaders and Pope Pius. ;)
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 19, 2011, 12:50:20 AM
"Nasty" and "Faith Power from a good source" don't really mesh well either.

In the books there aren't many example of people who have Faith and they tend to do the Right Thing because of their beliefs.  Like the scene where someone who has murdered and tortured and done unspeakable things agreed to toss away his coin and the two Knights of the Cross facing him gave him the chance to make a new life because that's what they should do.

Micheal is a Righteous Man, not a self righteous one, and that's the key to his Faith.

Richard
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Silverblaze on May 19, 2011, 01:17:01 AM
It could be interesting, from a story point of view, to have a LaVey Satanist be on the side of the angels (so to speak).

After all, the tenets of modern Satanism are more or less hedonism and selfishness.  There's nothing wrong, from their written point of view, for someone to help kittens out of trees and little old ladies across the street...if that's what you WANT to do, and it does something for you.  Doing something because it feels good is correct, from LaVey Satanist principles.

So, you could have a  'good' Satanist who has True Faith...although perhaps not from where he thinks it comes from.

I believe C.S. Lewis covered this idea in the last Narnia book in the series.

O.O I love that idea!
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Silverblaze on May 19, 2011, 01:19:38 AM
"Nasty" and "Faith Power from a good source" don't really mesh well either.

In the books there aren't many example of people who have Faith and they tend to do the Right Thing because of their beliefs.  Like the scene where someone who has murdered and tortured and done unspeakable things agreed to toss away his coin and the two Knights of the Cross facing him gave him the chance to make a new life because that's what they should do.

Micheal is a Righteous Man, not a self righteous one, and that's the key to his Faith.

Richard

Spot on there.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: ways and means on May 19, 2011, 01:45:38 AM
I have a several theological problems with your interpretation of true faith (that faith is only true for nice religions who are tied into the particular values which we currently subscribe too, so you are saying all the crusaders who sacrafised their lives and livings to do what they believed is right, even if this did involve genocide did not have true faith. Or that all the people who throughout the ages devoted their life to the chruch even though it recomended violence to women for the sole crime of being educated did not have true faith.) The simple arguement comes down to whether you believe true faith transcends good and evil (by that I mean the subjective good and evil rather than the Universal theory which keeps changing) or whether True Faith is just a manifestation of the current conception of the good. As both sides of this equation are entirly subjective (no matter how much you universalists argue otherwise) there is correct answer which makes debating it fruitless.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Becq on May 19, 2011, 02:47:48 AM
I think I'll offer my answer the OP question this way:

The True Faith powers as written in the book represent True Faith in the Almighty, which covers the faiths of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  (Not all aspects of those worldy religeons, but those aspects that truly (or Truly) adhere to the wishes of the Almighty, which because it's a question of Faith may end up being a judgment call by the GM and/or table.  It might also be ruled that followers of some other religeons are actually followers of the Almighty, though by a different name.  Again, a judgement call.  Likewise, those who do 'the right thing' as an expression of personal belief without expressly being a part of a religeon might even qualify (Sanya would be a great argument for this).

In all of these cases, the characters are qualifying because they are genuinely following the wishes of the Almighty (who is definitively real in the Dresdenverse, OOC arguments aside), knowingly or not.  I do not believe that characters who a "true adherents" to religeons that contradict the will of the Almighty would qualify for True Faith powers.

That said, I could easily see justification for an alternate set of True Faith-like powers that *could* be used by True Adherants to other sufficiently powerful entities.  Some of these powers might be carbon copies of True Faith powers, while others might have a very different flavor.  For example, I think that by nature, powers granted by an evil power would tend toward aggression, rather than defense (so "Bless This House" might be replaced by "Aura of Defilement" which grants a bonus (+1 or +2) to attempts to destroy thresholds).
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 19, 2011, 03:47:58 AM
I have a several theological problems with your interpretation of true faith...

I'm assuming that those problems are based on real life issues, not on a series of books.  My postings on this thread all deal with Faith as it is portrayed in the novels.  Well, they also include a bit on game balance, but that's minor.  They have nothing to do with any real life religious views I may or may not have.

The Jim Butcher forum has rules about something called "touchy topics".  Those rules rarely come up here, but I have seen warnings given out in other areas.  Debates that touch on racism, sexism, religion, and disgusting crimes (those that sometimes get cited on the "Is Marcone good or evil" threads) just aren't allowed.  I've seen messages edited by mods and posters told to take a bit of time off when they keep harping on those subjects.  Which is why I'm being careful only to talk about this subject as it applies to the books and the RPG.  I'd prefer to get warnings only by citing the things that Marcone allows to happen that negatively impact on children.

The theological at work in the DV seems a bit two dimensional at times - or maybe we just don't know enough about it.  It could evolve the way the Wardens went from the Bogymen to "people doing the job that needs doing" as the series progressed.  But until things change what we have to work are people like Micheal.  There have been many other 'gods' talked about, but none of their followers seem to have gotten any Faith based powers.

But maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe I missed some character somewhere.  I'm tempted to wander over to the Spoilers board and challenge the folks there to find Faith based powers that aren't connected to the White God (that's the term they use there - borrowed from Mab).  If anyone can find an example it will be those people.

Richard
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: ways and means on May 19, 2011, 04:14:30 AM
I read up on Sanya and so I should apologise to everyone, if Sanya has true faith powers then in the DF faith has nothing to do with true faith, I am going to rename them in my book Holy Powers or God Powers which seems to fit the mold better.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Tedronai on May 19, 2011, 06:24:03 AM
The theological at work in the DV seems a bit two dimensional at times - or maybe we just don't know enough about it.  It could evolve the way the Wardens went from the Bogymen to "people doing the job that needs doing" as the series progressed.  But until things change what we have to work are people like Micheal.  There have been many other 'gods' talked about, but none of their followers seem to have gotten any Faith based powers.

How many explicit followers of other gods have we seen in the series (to a meaningful extent that we would even be aware of whether they had the mechanical representations in question)?
Off the top of my head, I can think of...one.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Richard_Chilton on May 19, 2011, 06:43:32 AM
Let's see:
Followers of Hectate - Welcome to the Jungle
A follower of Dionysus (bassarid) - Last Call
Ladies of the Dark River (The Stygian) - Backup - a story that suggests that there are many gods with minions working for them.

Notice that in all those cases the followers haven't quite been human, but you get the hint that they were human and transformed by their master (given Creature Features) or other rites.

And if Dagon is around...
(click to show/hide)
.  One of those beings, when asked if he's human, answered
(click to show/hide)
.

Richard
(who might have missed some)
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: Obsid on May 19, 2011, 12:26:10 PM
I think for the most part Richard has this pinned.

A few things I might add though...

First, the concepts of Good and Evil are messy at best. A True Believer in Evil has the connotations of "A True Believer in Wrong." A True Believer in Wrong is a self contradiction if I've ever heard one. If you Truly Believe, then you don't think you're wrong. And if you don't think you're wrong, then would you call yourself evil?

Second, there is the possibility of a True Believer in "Evil". Please note the bold quotation marks. Harry Dresden might fall into this category. Magic is considered Evil by many people after all. If you define the word "evil" only by public opinion, then you can think something is right and even good, despite being evil.

Third, we reach again the problem with serving "Evil." I don't profess to really understand what the word means, but I think i get how people use it. If I'm wrong then this point means nothing. Evil is generally Destructive and Chaotic. If you truly believe that Evil is Right, then, in serving towards Destructive and Chaotic ends, you will find a tendency towards contradictions.

For example. A Village serving Evil partakes in one human sacrifice every day. On average, ten people are born a year. Eventually of course, there is no one left to worship Evil. The idea that this practice is Right contradicts itself, because the practice forces itself to be discontinued.

Now, I don't think worshipers of Evil will be quite that stupid, but I do think that they will notice smaller scale examples of such inherent contradictions. In order to continue worshiping Evil despite these contradictions they will go at least part way insane. Richard has already pointed out that Insanity is not Faith.

I personally think of Faith magic as a sort of sponsored magic. The Sponsor might be the White God as he's often called in the Dresdenverse, or maybe even the Holy Spirit (which I fancy to be akin to a Genius Loci or Intellectus construct). As long as you Serve His interests, He sponsors you. Doesn't much care if you Serve in His name.
Title: Re: True Believer in Evil
Post by: SunlessNick on May 19, 2011, 11:47:35 PM
Quote
As long as you Serve His interests, He sponsors you. Doesn't much care if you Serve in His name.  -  Obsid
That's why I brought up Ormazd/Ahura Mazda and Ahriman earlier.  Because the White God has been associated with the monotheistic religions and portrayed as somewhat above the gods associated with polytheistic ones, the bad god of a dualist religion could be seen as having the same kind of above-ness.  And might reward someone who a path based on believing evil nature to be truer nature (the type who thinks everyone wants to be just like them, but isn't honest and/or brave enough) - because it wants others to see those qualities result in power and reward, and so inclucate them.  You're right, though, the believer would probably call it "beyond good and evil" or something rather than evil.

Then again, we've seen no indication that anything like Ahriman exists in the Dresdenverse anyway.

Quote
If you define the word "evil" only by public opinion, then you can think something is right and even good, despite being evil.
The original post's example of the baals fits into this category too.  The term's been demonised in the popular consciousness, because it was used to refer to the gods of Canaan; but the baals weren't worshipped in Canaan because their worshippers thought they were demonically evil, it was the Israelites who (eventually) thought that.


Another angle, not necessarily based in evil, but probably more appropriate, is antinomianism.  That is the transgression of prohibitions as a deliberate spiritual practice (for example some of the dualist Gnostic sects who believed the god of the Old Testament was an evil being from whose prison the God of the New Testament was trying to free humanity would deliberate break the laws of Leviticus as part of their worship).  I don't see that kind of practice resulting in any kind of True Faith per se (it's more like a True Denial), but nor is it necessarily going to Sponsored by anything concrete, and there's some precedent for it in the Lawbreaking stunts, where breaking one of the Laws of Magic gets you some level of power towards doing it again (and gradually changes you spiritually).

So maybe the closest to a "true faith in evil" would be adapting the Lawbreaker Stunts so that you get something similar when you break certain implied laws (maybe the same as the Laws of Magic, maybe different, but based on the general theme of "don't screw with people just because you can") with deliberate metaphysical purpose - the intent to make the act change your spirit, the faith that your spirit should change in that way, because it's right and proper that a spirit should do so if it can.  And it does, you become spiritually more adept at that action (the bonus you get), but your nature changes and becomes tied to that action (the rewriting of Aspects and loss of Refresh).  Conversely, the people who do those things accidentally, or try to justify them and claim they don't matter, won't get the stunts because they lack the faith in the effect such an action should have.

Does this make any sense?  (I'm basically writing it down as I think of it).