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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Katarn on March 31, 2011, 08:23:07 PM

Title: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Katarn on March 31, 2011, 08:23:07 PM
Disclaimer (to my campaign players): I don't plan to use this in-game, this is more a hypothetical what-if I may tie-in to NPCs.


What would happen if a cleric attempted an exorcism on a Raith or Skavis?  The White Courtiers have their "Demons", but if this worked in curing them one of the books would've mentioned it.  Thoughts? Theories?
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: zenten on March 31, 2011, 08:53:22 PM
In my game it would kill them, as they're no longer physically human.

You could do it to a White Court Virgin in my game though.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Team8Mum on March 31, 2011, 09:06:59 PM
Can't help thinking all it would do is make them really really annoyed.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Papa Gruff on March 31, 2011, 09:16:26 PM
Quote from: Team8Mum on March 31, 2011, 09:06:59 PM
Can't help thinking all it would do is make them really really annoyed.

Yep! Ain't a daemon from "hell". Team8Mum is right...
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: UmbraLux on March 31, 2011, 09:25:50 PM
Quote from: Katarn on March 31, 2011, 08:23:07 PM
What would happen if a cleric attempted an exorcism on a Raith or Skavis?  The White Courtiers have their "Demons", but if this worked in curing them one of the books would've mentioned it.  Thoughts? Theories?
Nothing - except give them a chance to feed on said cleric.   ;D

Seriously.  It's not a 'summoned' demon, it's not necessarily hellish at all.  It is part of the human and native to this plane of existence. 
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Bruce Coulson on March 31, 2011, 09:32:06 PM
A White Court Virgin could be cured by such a procedure, simply on the grounds that they are making a sincere effort to reject the demon within them.

Once they've killed, however, the deal is made, and a exorcism would have no effect.  (Well, it might amuse or annoy the vampire in question; but it wouldn't cure them.)

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on March 31, 2011, 09:36:30 PM
I'm in the "no effect" camp.

If it was that easy to drive out vampirism then Susan would have been cured in days while Thomas would spend every night in Justin's loving arms.

Richard
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: deathwombat on March 31, 2011, 11:17:54 PM
Probably make them chuckle
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Viatos on April 01, 2011, 01:22:58 AM
Quote from: Katarn on March 31, 2011, 08:23:07 PM
Disclaimer (to my campaign players): I don't plan to use this in-game, this is more a hypothetical what-if I may tie-in to NPCs.


What would happen if a cleric attempted an exorcism on a Raith or Skavis?  The White Courtiers have their "Demons", but if this worked in curing them one of the books would've mentioned it.  Thoughts? Theories?

Whatever the plot needs to happen. I'm in the "cures Virgins, kills Vampires" camp, but I might also allow it to cure a vampire in exchange for the demon sticking around as a pissed-off Spirit Form'd horror, which would need to be dealt with quickly, as it'd have the power to possess randoms via Domination, jumping hosts whenever it had glutted as deeply as it could on Incite'd Emotion.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Samael on April 01, 2011, 01:35:13 AM
Really depends on the resources involved in my mind, and how much effort the PCs were go to to try it out, if its just a "Begone Demon!"  Exorcism of Emily Rose type thing then it fails, but if it were to happen with three knights of the cross and a major true faith priest type in SUPER sanctified holy ground (such as the Vatican/Notre Dame) with the supporting efforts of several monks and days worth of fasting and prep prayer... well to me that would probably work imo, if only because its dramatic and fun and would be a hell of a story arc to set up (convincing people to help, offering favors, acquiring certain Artifacts of Faith that could assist, doing major research on the origins of Wampires, etc) I think it could be the focal point of such an event, of coarse the PCs would have to be besieged by some bad guys while its going down and defend the holy ground as an extended contest to keep the church from being breached and the ritual ruined and killing both the Wampire/priests involved.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Becq on April 01, 2011, 03:08:34 AM
I don't think it would have any effect on either vamps or virgins.  Some quotes:

"White Court vampirism is a hereditary condition, passed along when interbreeding with humans, always breeding true."
"They might best be seen as a separate race, able to interbreed with humans (White Court vampires are born, not made—it’s hereditary)."

I see exorcism as intended to address cases in which a demonic being is squatting on the spiritual real estate of somebody else, so to speak.  It would in theory work against a Denarian (though even the weakest Denarian would probably be able to resist any attempt at exorcism that didn't directly involve an archangel or better, which in turn wouldn't happen because it would circumvent the free will decision of the coinbearer).  It wouldn't work against any of the vampire Courts, because their infection (in the case of Red and Black courts) or hereditary genetics (in the case of White) has actually changed/shaped who they are, rather than imposing a demonic copilot on them.

To support this, I would point out that if this worked, there would be no Fellowship of St. Giles, since all of those Red Court Infected would have been long since exorcised back to normal.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Samael on April 01, 2011, 03:14:01 AM
Depends on the what it would take, I mean it has shown that Mother Winters Unmaking can undo any enchantment, including the reds infection and likely the bound demon of the white court. Of coarse that is magic on such a level you would need major powers involved for something similar. Which is why I think any such purge would require the major work (see my previous post) and a mandate from On High for an Archangel to do its thing to accomplish it.Thus making it far to expensive or practical to accomplish.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Tedronai on April 01, 2011, 03:20:37 AM
Sufficiently complex and powerful (and law-breaking) thaumaturgy can turn a human into a bunny rabbit.  I see no reason why it could not similarly turn a WCV into a human.
The WCV, and more to the point, it's demon, will likely put up a rather more troublesome fight, but Fully Transformative Thaumaturgy doesn't really have hard limits.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Becq on April 01, 2011, 03:54:53 AM
Quote from: Tedronai on April 01, 2011, 03:20:37 AM
Sufficiently complex and powerful (and law-breaking) thaumaturgy can turn a human into a bunny rabbit.  I see no reason why it could not similarly turn a WCV into a human.
If this were the case, then Susan would have long since resumed here formed life, either through a combined effort by Harry and Bob (who were greatly motivated to accomplish the task) or through the contacts of the Fellowship (who were also greatly motivated to find a cure).

Note, by the way, that tansformational magic against a *monster* is not Lawbreaking.  Even if you count an Infected as 'still human', then if such magic were possible you could always let them full transform, then transform them back once they no longer qualified as human.

I would explain away this possibility by saying that the change that made the human into a monster was a spiritual change, and that while transformational magic could give them a human body, everything that mattered would remain vampiric.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Tedronai on April 01, 2011, 04:08:08 AM
Quote from: Becq on April 01, 2011, 03:54:53 AM
If this were the case, then Susan would have long since resumed here formed life, either through a combined effort by Harry and Bob (who were greatly motivated to accomplish the task) or through the contacts of the Fellowship (who were also greatly motivated to find a cure).

The obvious answer to that being that Dresden (along with anyone or anything on a comparable power scale) is simply incapable of performing (or conceiving of) a suitably complex and powerful ritual.

Someone on the power scale of Mother Winter, on the other hand is demonstrably capable of workings on such a scale.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: devonapple on April 01, 2011, 04:28:28 AM
Quote
Luke: Well, more wealth than you can imagine!
Han Solo: I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.

I suppose nobody thought they could ever line up the circumstances necessary for the way "Changes" resolved, either.  And they didn't, until it became a plot point for the author.

Sure, Dresden can be an unreliable witness, and he can't know everything, but there remain some things which - were they even remotely possible with anything below deity-level power - would have inescapable world-altering ramifications, even if he himself had not come up with them.

Maybe this will change. Maybe the Hermione Grangers of the Dresdenverse will come out of the woodwork and turn all of these "facts" on their ear. Maybe the Ponder Stibbonses will build a Rube Goldberg-esque steam-and-ant-powered supercomputer that turns the White Council into a league of well-informed surgical nuclear holocausts waiting to happen. "Maybe" covers a lot of things. And that is where our games take place.

Until it becomes "plot," we should be guided the setting and its (meta)physics to confirm that we're on the same page. Thaumaturgy can theoretically reproduce any effect, it is true. But there's a certain point at which a GM gets to decide: "32-shift head exploding spell? sure. Tear the Demon out of a White Court Vampire? not going to get any traction on that."

Edit: "not going to get any traction on that using Thaumaturgy, anyway. How about a field trip to the Fairy Courts?"
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Tedronai on April 01, 2011, 04:40:04 AM
Or, more appropriately:
Tear the Demon out of a White Court Vampire?  I'd really rather not deal with that kind of world-shaking power in this game, at this time.  If you'd like, we could put it on the backburner, and have your character working on the fundamental research for such a project in the background of what'll be going on in this story.  You should probably devote an aspect to that research if you want it to come up at all, and even then, it'll likely only be in the form of compels for now.  I'm still not saying it's possible, at least not with what's reasonably likely to be available to your character in the foreseeable future of this story, but researching the possibility?  Sure, that'd be fine.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: zenten on April 01, 2011, 03:56:42 PM
If you want to do something strictly by the system, you could always compel the Wizard to not be able to do whatever effect as a compel on their high concept, which is how I would handle Harry not being able to turn Susan mortal.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Tedronai on April 01, 2011, 08:47:32 PM
Harry's player then negotiates that compel down to 'this method of achieving my goal will fail' for a few months, raking in the FPs, that he eventually uses to go ape***t on a certain crazy-lady, before finally accepting that a mortal practitioner simply isn't going to be able to pull it off.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Becq on April 01, 2011, 09:37:02 PM
Quote from: Tedronai on April 01, 2011, 04:08:08 AM
The obvious answer to that being that Dresden (along with anyone or anything on a comparable power scale) is simply incapable of performing (or conceiving of) a suitably complex and powerful ritual.

Someone on the power scale of Mother Winter, on the other hand is demonstrably capable of workings on such a scale.
I agree with respect to Harry, but it seems like something Bob would have at least a bit of info on.  And given the not inconsiderable resources of the Fellowship, I think it strains belief that they wouldn't have found a solution if there was one.  Not only that, but imagine the benefit to the White Council such a cure would be in their war against the Red Court.  If all of the resources of the most powerful Wizards in existence can't come up with the cure, then I'd conclude it either doesn't exist or is well beyond reach.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Tedronai on April 01, 2011, 09:42:30 PM
Well, they actually DID find a cure for the RCI, now, didn't they?  TWO cures, in fact. 
(click to show/hide)
  Yes, they were well beyond the reach of a mortal practitioner, or the assembled resources of the Fellowship, and one was beyond the thought processes, at the least, of the assembled Council.  But they were available.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Becq on April 01, 2011, 10:20:18 PM
Keep in mind the context of this discussion, we were talking about exorcisms, presumeably by means of a ritual performed by either a mortal priest or a practitioner of Magic.  The solutions you mention are well beyond the bounds of any such exorcism ritual.
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Tedronai on April 01, 2011, 10:27:47 PM
They are demonstrable evidence that the desired effect is, in theory, possible, and both canonical instances of a 'cure' were on scale far surpassing the proposed 'exorcism',
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Becq on April 01, 2011, 11:05:46 PM
First of all, note that
(click to show/hide)
and that in the DFRPG reality, the Winter Mother is only one rung below The Almighty on the six rung "Supernatural Heavyweights" table (OW28) that doesn't even mention the most powerful members of the White Council.

The fact that some entity, somewhere in the DF reality, can accomplish something says nothing about the the capabilities of other non-similar entities.  If you take your logic (Mother Winter can accomplish a thing, therefore a Wizard could eventually learn to accomplish the same thing through mortal magic) to the extreme, then you'd have to conclude that Harry is, in fact capable of Creating all of Existence, if only he tagged enough Aspects (The Almighty can accomplish a thing, therefore a Wizard could learn to accomplish the same thing through mortal magic).

In any case, the question isn't "Can a Red Court Infection be removed", it's "What would an exorcism do to a White Court Vampire".  And while the question is certainly a matter of opinion and may be approached differently in different gaming groups, I stand by my opinion that DFRPG vampirism is a curse/infection/inherited condition rather than a possession, and that therefore no exorcism will have any effect on any member of any of the three Courts.  Note that I similarly feel that an exorcism would have no effect on someone suffering from a birth defect or even from the common cold (though your typical drug store can sell you something that might help a bit with the latter).
Title: Re: What would an Exorcism do to a White Court Vampire?
Post by: Tedronai on April 02, 2011, 02:10:06 AM
Quote from: Becq on April 01, 2011, 11:05:46 PM
First of all, note that
(click to show/hide)
and that in the DFRPG reality, the Winter Mother is only one rung below The Almighty on the six rung "Supernatural Heavyweights" table (OW28) that doesn't even mention the most powerful members of the White Council.

How do you cure an infection?  You kill it.
What happens when that infection has crossed over into the realm of symbiosis by mutual necessity?  The host dies, too.

Thus far in real world medicine, a panacea is incomprehensibly beyond human capability.  And yet we find ourselves perfectly capable of curing any number of individual illnesses with tailored treatments.

Quote from: Becq on April 01, 2011, 11:05:46 PM
The fact that some entity, somewhere in the DF reality, can accomplish something says nothing about the the capabilities of other non-similar entities.  If you take your logic (Mother Winter can accomplish a thing, therefore a Wizard could eventually learn to accomplish the same thing through mortal magic) to the extreme, then you'd have to conclude that Harry is, in fact capable of Creating all of Existence, if only he tagged enough Aspects (The Almighty can accomplish a thing, therefore a Wizard could learn to accomplish the same thing through mortal magic).
ABSOLUTELY.  If your mortal practitioner can manage to pull off a ... let's go with ... three trillion complexity ritual (and that's almost definitely extremely low-balled), you get your very own, fresh off the line capital-E-Existence.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Quote from: Becq on April 01, 2011, 11:05:46 PM
In any case, the question isn't "Can a Red Court Infection be removed", it's "What would an exorcism do to a White Court Vampire".  And while the question is certainly a matter of opinion and may be approached differently in different gaming groups, I stand by my opinion that DFRPG vampirism is a curse/infection/inherited condition rather than a possession, and that therefore no exorcism will have any effect on any member of any of the three Courts.  Note that I similarly feel that an exorcism would have no effect on someone suffering from a birth defect or even from the common cold (though your typical drug store can sell you something that might help a bit with the latter).

Primarily a matter of the definition of 'exorcism', I would say.