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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ways and means on March 25, 2011, 07:04:21 PM
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How would people stat the degree of self inflicted damage from punching someone in the face with a live grenede, it would be at least 4 stress worth of damage but I was wondering should it be anymore as it is in your hand.
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I'm fairly sure a grenade is a zone attack, so basically all your work is done for you. Everyone in the zone takes four stress, including the idiot holding a grenade. ;)
[Edit] I can see why you're tempted to do more damage, but I'm not sure the system really supports it. Perhaps you could not permit him any kind of defense roll, and have the damage of his attack apply to him. That's the only justification I can think of.
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Considering the character has mythic toughness he probably wouldn't be seriously damaged by holding a grenade as it goes off so perhaps 4 is best.
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How would people stat the degree of self inflicted damage from punching someone in the face with a live grenede, it would be at least 4 stress worth of damage but I was wondering should it be anymore as it is in your hand.
According to the rules, I don't know how I would model it.
I will set aside the bizarreness of the maneuver, and instead ask: what was the intended narrative/game effect of this method? If this is simply a really tough character wanting a zone-wide attack that doesn't need a roll to target someone, then... I dunno. Being a brick has its advantages. I *want* there to be some sort of consequence for this action, but if the character is tough enough, then this sounds like it fits in with acceptable brick powers. It sounds really sketchy, but I'm not coming up with a good rationale for prohibiting/limiting it, other than the dread that allowing this maneuver means there is little to stop this brick from carrying a dufflebag full of grenades and simply popping one open every round until the enemies are dead. Smart opponents can get around it, sure, but still.
This could also sound like a really proactive Concession: this is what I'm willing to suffer to put an immediate end to this Conflict, rather than slog through a bunch of rolls. In which case, I'd probably insist on a mid-level Consequence, which might go away soon if the tough guy has any Recovery powers.
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Wait, is he holding the grenade in a closed fist as he punches someone in the face? If he has his actual hand wrapped around the actual grenade I'd say he's losing fingers here at the very least.
Yes, Weapon:4 to the zone is the basic effect of a grenade, and good enough for FATE. But that weapon rating assumes that it's being tossed near the people to be affected and they are actively avoiding it. If it's in his hand it should probably do very little damage to anything other than his hand.
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Okay, I just checked YS: 325, and the attacker's roll IS added to the damage of the grenade.
Rules look fairly simple from this point of view, add his attack to the weapon:4 to everyone in the zone, and don't allow him a defense.
[Edit] I know this probably won't do much harm past his armour, stress and such, but I'm not really comfortable with suggesting a consequence, especially when someone has paid points for a power designed to prevent damage. This way, he'll probably take some stress at least.
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Mythic Toughness provides armour:3.
A grenade is weapon:4.
So...a character with Mythic Toughness suffers approximately the same amount of 'injury' from a weapon:4 attack that a regular human suffers from a weapon:1 attack.
Then again, I doubt a grenade's weapon:4 rating is meant to wholly represent being in direct contact with the thing when it goes off.
Which would mean that the character is about to suffer at least as much pain as a normal human would from getting a dagger stabbed through their hand (that's a lot of pain), and possibly a heck of a lot more.
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The other issue i see is that the Grenade would not to the same amount of damage in the zone it was in.. To me it is kind of someone jumping on a grenade to save the party, but in this case his own arm, hands and body would stop a great amount of the shrapnel.
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The other issue i see is that the Grenade would not to the same amount of damage in the zone it was in.. To me it is kind of someone jumping on a grenade to save the party, but in this case his own arm, hands and body would stop a great amount of the shrapnel.
The way he described it was that he was cupping the grenade in his hand and attacking palm first I only rolled damage for the enemy whose face the grenade was colliding with as I thought between this character and the big bad most of the shrapnel would be absorbed. So people recon the grenede puncher should get his skill plus his weapons rating in stress rather than just the weapons rating?
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With any consequences inflicted by this attack (and there should be some) being along the lines of 'shrapnel in my hand' (mild), to 'mangled hand' (moderate), to 'shredded hand' (severe), to 'exploded hand' (extreme)
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[Edit] I know this probably won't do much harm past his armour, stress and such, but I'm not really comfortable with suggesting a consequence, especially when someone has paid points for a power designed to prevent damage.
I know. But this maneuver really seems to be pushing the boundaries of narrative realism - a lot of this combat stuff is already at quite an abstract level, with some give and take allowed for cause/effect, but this seems to really be gaming the system. Foolishness isn't technically a Catch, but...
Was the brick using Fists to place the grenade, or Weapons?
Based on the description, it sounds like there may be a cause for reducing or eliminating the damage to others in the same zone, but if the grenade is enough to tear through the intended target, then that could definitely affect others in the zone.
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The way he described it was that he was cupping the grenade in his hand and attacking palm first I only rolled damage for the enemy whose face the grenade was colliding with as I thought between this character and the big bad most of the shrapnel would be absorbed. So people recon the grenede puncher should get his skill plus his weapons rating in stress rather than just the weapons rating?
If he'd thrown the grenade at the zone he was in, he'd take his weapon skill plus weapon:4 in stress, reduced by his defensive skill and armour. Just like everyone else at the zone. What I'm suggesting, is that since he made no attempt to avoid the effects, he should at the very least forfeit his defensive roll. His attack roll and weapon damage would hit him straight, and only be reduced by armour.
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The character was rolling fist to hit the target and at the time I just gave him 4 stress points, if I think about it now given he also had a stunt that allowed him to roll endurance as a dodge I probably should of had him rolling endurance against his fist skill to work out his damage. I should probably explain the character was based on the incrediable Hulk so some of the stupidity arose from that.
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The character was rolling fist to hit the target and at the time I just gave him 4 stress points, if I think about it now given he also had a stunt that allowed him to roll endurance as a dodge I probably should of had him rolling endurance against his fist skill to work out his damage. I should probably explain the character was based on the incrediable Hulk so some of the stupidity arose from that.
Well, my suggestion is to not let him have a defense at all. He in no way tried to avoid taking damage.
That stunt sounds odd though, how did you explain in setting avoiding damage with Endurance? It sounds more like a power than a stunt.
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Avoiding damage with Endurance: getting hit but not hurt. Remember that taking no stress does not mean that you didn't get hit, and that taking stress doesn't mean that you did.
As for the original question: roll Weapons to hit, then defend normally. Grenade punching is just fancy narration, and shouldn`t have a mechanical effect in my opinion.
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That stunt sounds odd though, how did you explain in setting avoiding damage with Endurance? It sounds more like a power than a stunt.
That's the "Shrug it Off" stunt (or something like that). Simply replaces Endurance with Athletics for defending against an attack. Which means it may be even more appropriate in this case.
But one of the shenanigans in this maneuver is that the character is getting the benefit of a weapon without having the appropriate skill. I would have certainly wanted at least a Fate Point for the attack, perhaps invoking an Aspect about the character's Toughness, in the spirit of getting a one-time use of an imaginary Stunt that would allow that kind of a maneuver.
Also, having forgotten that Mythic Toughness isn't enough Armor to fully prevent damage from the grenade in the first place, I think a Consequence is probably a good compromise in this situation. Heck, in Superhero RPGs, getting to ignore damage from something under your armor value ("hardened," I think it's called in Mutants & Masterminds) is an additional advantage.
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Yah he has no way of avoiding the attack, but his fists roll should not be damaging himself any more he is not punching himself...
He is punching the other guy which damages him, then the grenade explodes which damages them both.
However weapon 4 was intended for a grenade that explodes in a lethal proximity with bonuses for placement when thrown.
I wouldn't feel bad about increasing the weapon rating for both of them, lying on a grenade would likely kill any normal mook straight up, soldiers with kevlar vests don't even stand a chance. I'd figure a respectable soldier on having endurance 4 and 4 health boxes, on top of that they'd have armor 2 for body armor. To fully take him out in one shot it'd be a 7 damage hit. So I'd say hit them both with weapon 7, him getting no defense roll but not taking any more from his fists roll.
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Yah he has no way of avoiding the attack, but his fists roll should not be damaging himself any more he is not punching himself...
He is punching the other guy which damages him, then the grenade explodes which damages them both.
However weapon 4 was intended for a grenade that explodes in a lethal proximity with bonuses for placement when thrown.
I wouldn't feel bad about increasing the weapon rating for both of them, lying on a grenade would likely kill any normal mook straight up, soldiers with kevlar vests don't even stand a chance. I'd figure a respectable soldier on having endurance 4 and 4 health boxes, on top of that they'd have armor 2 for body armor. To fully take him out in one shot it'd be a 7 damage hit. So I'd say hit them both with weapon 7, him getting no defense roll but not taking any more from his fists roll.
Sure, he's not punching himself, but this way he takes LESS damage than if someone had thrown a grenade at him. That hardly makes sense. Another solution would to be to have the attack default to fantastic, since he's actively holding it.
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He's not, however, holding it in a manner such as to do the greatest possible damage. In fact, far from it. He's holding it in his hand, probably one of the fourth least critical points on the body when exposed to an effect of this sort. He is presumably holding it with his arm significantly, if not fully extended, further sheltering the rest of his body from exposure.
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He's not, however, holding it in a manner such as to do the greatest possible damage. In fact, far from it. He's holding it in his hand, probably one of the fourth least critical points on the body when exposed to an effect of this sort. He is presumably holding it with his arm significantly, if not fully extended, further sheltering the rest of his body from exposure.
The location is largely irrelevant, I think, a missing hand is still an Extreme consequence. All consequences he takes will of course apply to his hand, and perhaps lower arm, but the fact that he's clutching it means he's not avoiding damage, just making sure the damage is only applied to one location.
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This is a perfect example of why FATE is usually so abstract. Worrying about how to handle this will only bring you grief. Because if every weird action in combat needs special rules, then you`ll have problems every time your players get creative.
PS: Congratulations on your 1000th post, devonapple.
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Wasn't there something about self-inflicted damage automatically satisfying any catch? I don't know where I read hat, it might have been a suggestion of someone on the forum. In that case, a weapon:4 attack would still really hurt your hulk despite his toughness.
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Wasn't there something about self-inflicted damage automatically satisfying any catch? I don't know where I read hat, it might have been a suggestion of someone on the forum.
It was/is.
More aptly, payments made by means of a self-inflicted wound that does not satisfy a catch likely will not be sufficient payment.
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Wasn't there something about self-inflicted damage automatically satisfying any catch? I don't know where I read hat, it might have been a suggestion of someone on the forum. In that case, a weapon:4 attack would still really hurt your hulk despite his toughness.
That was a popular house rule to stop people power gaming magic by having toughness or regneration powers which allowed the character to take stupid amounts of backlash or to sacrafise concequences which they get back in 5 minutes time. It certainly wasn't designed to stop someone with mythic toughness doing stupid things like jumping off buildings etc because they can.
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Sure, he's not punching himself, but this way he takes LESS damage than if someone had thrown a grenade at him. That hardly makes sense. Another solution would to be to have the attack default to fantastic, since he's actively holding it.
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But I'm saying it will do more damage than normal because he is holding it in the first place, and you forget that when someone throws something at you, you get a defense roll and can mitigate the opponents roll or avoid it entirely, so its quite debatable if you'd take more damage from having it thrown at you.
Basically my suggestion amounts to an auto 4 stress hit to the player after his toughness powers, which actually still seems a bit underpowered to me, I'd have him taking a moderate consequence at least. A basic mook should be taking an extreme consequence to survive but mythic toughness is 3 cuts above that in short, so moderate seems about fair.
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PS: Congratulations on your 1000th post, devonapple.
Thank you!
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This is a perfect example of why FATE is usually so abstract. Worrying about how to handle this will only bring you grief. Because if every weird action in combat needs special rules, then you`ll have problems every time your players get creative.
PS: Congratulations on your 1000th post, devonapple.
I think it's perfectly sensible to rule on things like this. If you don't, you run into the danger of allowing your players to create increasingly obscure attacks and bogging your game down in mind numbingly boring power gaming.
I'd deal with this attack in one of two ways.
1) If the character has both Mythic Toughness and atleast Supernatural Strength it would work much like a shaped charge with the vast amount of energy going through the BBEG as energy always seeks the path of least resistance. I'd treat it as a weapon 5 attack against the BBEG and 3 against the character, using fists to aim but NOT allowing extra shifts to increase damage as he's using a makeshift weapon that is not at all designed to be used that way and he's effectively (as described in the above scenario) merely shoving the guy with it rather than using a closed fist.
2) If he has the toughness but lower strength then the above would still happen but the character would need to spend a fate point to keep his hand closed around the grenade AND would gain at the very least a severe consequence of dislocated hand (just because he can take the punishment doesn't mean he has the strength to avoid a powerful explosion from ripping his fingers out of their sockets).
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Why is the active character in your scenario, stabbald, taking less damage from the grenade by holding it in their hand while it explodes? (a grenade is normally weapon:4, against everyone in the zone, but this character, by holding it, is treating it as a weapon:3?)
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Why is the active character in your scenario, stabbald, taking less damage from the grenade by holding it in their hand while it explodes? (a grenade is normally weapon:4, against everyone in the zone, but this character, by holding it, is treating it as a weapon:3?)
The side holding the grenade is stronger so the force generated is forced in the other direction. This is sound physics and is the reason shaped charges work.
Keep in mind I specified that the character in question would need to have massive strength as well as toughness for this to work.
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The side holding the grenade is stronger so the force generated is forced in the other direction. This is sound physics and is the reason shaped charges work.
Keep in mind I specified that the character in question would need to have massive strength as well as toughness for this to work.
I think the argument though is that it doesn't need to be decreased in weapon damage against the player though, the grenade is still the same power. But the player has mythic toughness so he already has 3 armor so for him most of the damage goes away.
At weapon 3 the player doesn't receive any kind of damage whatsoever since armor 3 completely cancels it out... GM might still give him that broken fingers consequence but.. I don't like it...
A thrown grenade that hit the player would damage him for 1 but you're saying a grenade he is holding in his hand won't damage him at all? I think you forgot about the armor 3...
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The side holding the grenade is stronger so the force generated is forced in the other direction. This is sound physics and is the reason shaped charges work.
Keep in mind I specified that the character in question would need to have massive strength as well as toughness for this to work.
Grenades are fragmented, and inflict damage mainly based on the chunks of metal fired in all directions. These chunks of metals would have to richochet from his hand in the direction of his enemy. I can hardly see how this would diminish the damage done.
My main problem with this, is that it basically sets a precedent of 'immune to grenades', it will hardly make sense if he doesn't get scratched by this grenade but one lobbed in his direction later gives him a minor or moderate consequence, and yet that is perfectly possible. From a reasonable, and dramatic, point of view he should take more damage from this than he would take from one thrown at him.
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The side holding the grenade is stronger so the force generated is forced in the other direction. This is sound physics and is the reason shaped charges work.
Keep in mind I specified that the character in question would need to have massive strength as well as toughness for this to work.
The material used to shape the explosion of a 'shaped charge' rarely survives such an explosion in better condition than if that same quantity had exploded without such measures a few meters off to the side.
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The consensus seems to be that the Grenade Punch Maneuver could work on its target, given an attacker with the right blend of strength and toughness.
The main question now is whether or not (and how how much) the Grenade Punch would do to the attacker.
The physics/logic, though contested, seems to indicate this should seriously harm the attacker.
The preservation of game balance seems to indicate this should do as much (or more) damage to the attacker than an ordinary target of a grenade.
Issues of potentially bad precedent seem to suggest that this should seriously harm the attacker, or provide some other disincentive.
But Dresden has room for a little sketchiness in its physics. And the Toughness powers we are talking about are basically a form of Plot Armor. In the end, this may just have to fall out according to the spirit of the table.
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I would have made him treat it as an ambush; he could roll defense, but his appropriate skill would be treated as a +0.
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He obviously rolls endurance, not athletics, for defense provided he has some sort of toughness powers.
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But what's the 'Effort' of an attack generated by intentionally HOLDING the explosive as it detonates?
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But what's the 'Effort' of an attack generated by intentionally HOLDING the explosive as it detonates?
Honestly? I'd seriously consider 'default to Fantastic'. It's about as accurate as a hit can be, since his hand is pressed against it.
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I don't know about that. I'd consider a headshot to be 'about as accurate as a hit can be', and there's a lot of room between there and a hand (one of the four LEAST critical points on the body from a survivability standpoint)
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Honestly? I'd seriously consider 'default to Fantastic'. It's about as accurate as a hit can be, since his hand is pressed against it.
Well I personally think the most accurate a hit could possibly be would be the grenade exploding at eye level right in front of his face though you may consider that legendary accuracy.
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You have to remember that Harry's hand being burned was an Extreme Consequence. There are no hit locations in this game, just severity.
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There are no hit locations for stress. But there CAN be for consequences. There's just no hard rules enforcing them. Harry's hand getting burned was a perfect example of their implementation, in fact.
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There are no hit locations for stress. But there CAN be for consequences. There's just no hard rules enforcing them. Harry's hand getting burned was a perfect example of their implementation, in fact.
My point is that you can clearly have enough damage to take an Extreme Consequence just from damage on the hand, the system doesn't treat extremies as negligible. The damage should be pretty much the same.
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A 0 means that you have hit the target so you could argue that hitting the hand would count as a plus 0, the difference between the attack roll and the defence roll shows how well you have hit which could mean where you hit (body location), you can argue that stress does not have location but the closest of near misses to the head or throat would be more stressful than a the closest of near misses to a hand.
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A 0 means that you have hit the target so you could argue that hitting the hand would count as a plus 0, the difference between the attack roll and the defence roll shows how well you have hit which could mean where you hit (body location), you can argue that stress does not have location but the closest of near misses to the head or throat would be more stressful than a the closest of near misses to a hand.
Damage to the head is worse than damage to the hand usually anyway, even as the same severity level consequence. A Moderate or Severe consequence would leave him one handed for a while, but he'll manage and it certainly wouldn't finish him off.
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I'm a serious newbie to the DFRPG stuff, but I still have 2c to throw in here:
If I imagine a dude punching someone with a grenade in his fist that has mythic toughness, I would imagine that if he has his fist around it, his hand would be protecting most of the area from the damage. I wouldn't expect anyone standing more than 6 yards away to be impacted. The guy holding the grenade ought to at least lose vision for a number of seconds, and his hand should sting, too. Obviously the guy unfortunate enough to be facing off against someone with mythic toughness and the ingenuity to punch someone with a grenade would be totally toasted.
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Assuming the guy holding/swinging the frag has DFRPG equivalent to Superman Impervious Mitts and Mystic Impervious Fingers of Not Blowing Uppedness, then the force of the blast would be more like a crude shaped charge rather than an omnidirectional explosion. So more whumpf for the poor sod who's eating it. It would work on the same principle as a tamped demo charge or an armor piercing explosive (save for those with self forging warheads like on purpose built anti-tank missiles.) So, what's the next step up in small, portable explosives? If the game has stats for a HEAT round or other low-end armor piercing explosive that's a step up from the common frag but below something like an AT-4, you could just upgrade the damage to that item for a quick-n-dirty solution.
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If the character were to claim that he was attempting to punch the grenade into his opponent and then pull back before it detonated then you could perhaps use a fists roll +4 damage for his opponent and attack roll zero attacks against the rest of the zone with weapon 4 as he isn't actively targeting them, including himself, though applying ambush rules to the player in question as they would be short on time to protect their soft bits (face in particular). Even if using endurance for defense rolls through a stunt I think it should probably be subject to ambush rolls in this situation just like anyone else who's flat-footed against an attacker (though in this case the attacker would be themselves) otherwise it represents a form of immunity to ambush rules and should probably be represented as a higher value power instead.
If the character is making no attempt to pull back before the grenade detonates then perhaps their fist roll should count against them as well to represent their ability to close the distance with their target rather than fumbling the grenade or being forced to toss it at the opponent instead, though this would be foolish enough that I'd hope it was attributed to an aspect so that I could give a Fate point for it, maybe two if they injure themselves badly enough.
Of course handling it as a concession to end the fight could work as well, though to take out a miniboss/lieutenant in the same blow they'd have to negotiate a steep consequence if they weren't already winning the fight.
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To me this sounds like its an attempt to create the aspect "Blowing Up (In) My Hand" or some such.
So yeah, basically what's needed is a consequence (maybe more than one) you create on yourself and can tap offensively.
Normally that would be a maneuver, but since the aspect is being taken as a serious consequence (grenades can blow through armor plate at close range, so a hand with even mythic toughness probably isn't much challenge, and just adds more shrapnel) I'd say there's no need to maneuver.
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I've been largely avoiding this one. :P But I'll chime in on some physics regarding what a shaped charge is.
A shaped charge operates because of (and brace yourself here!) the shape of the charge.
No really.
They were invented/discovered in the mining industry. It is unknown how long the effect was known to certain blue-collar miners; but an mining engineer took notice in the early part of the 20th Century. He noticed that miners were essentially etching metal with small plastic charges as a "Hey yall, watch this!" kind of thing and etching a reverse of the name of the company into the metal. The engineer went about finding out why. Turns out, it was the dent caused by the ridged name on the metal tin that plastic charge was shipped in that created a mini-shaped charge. It created a concave dent in the charge which, when detonated, focused the blast to the focal point of the concave curvature.
Think lenses and optics... but using explosive force instead of light.
This quickly got refined for military use. Particularly by Zee Germans. For those that remember their history, they were up to some shenanigans back around 1936 or so. The first big use of a shaped charge was with the Panzerfaust 30. A single shot infantry anti-tank rocket. Zee Germans had tested and experimented to find the most efficient conical shape to use.
The material behind the shaped charge really has no bearing nor does it really add any real confining force/pressure that acts to direct the blast. Mathematically, it is sure to add some; but of such a magnitude that it would not be included in any actually design modeling that one would carry out. I'm not going to go into the physics of this for sake of brevity; but that wouldn't work in this situation anyway.
What you have with a fragmentation grenade is a charge that is purposefully shaped to project metal shrapnel in all directions. It is omni-directional. In close proximity, the force of the explosion is quite intense and will cause massive damage to a human body. But, even a mythically tough hand is not going to "shape" the explosion back into the target. At best, the Mythically strong hand will simply match and/or counter the force that is imparted in the hand's direction with some leaking out around the edges of the hand.
How big is that hand anyway?
I honestly can not see a means by which punching someone with a hand grenade would generate any additional damage beyond the damage of the punch itself. At least in terms of real world physics. You mileage may vary depending on how "cool" and/or cinematic you wish your game to be.
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What the character was doing was an cupped open palmed punch to the face of the enemy big bad which meant that half grendade was in contact with the enemies face.
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Not a shaped charge.
It's a maneuver bonus. Roll Athletics to get in close for the Aspect "In Area of Effect". Roll Fists to add on the Aspect "Point Blank". Then you can tag those for +2 or an Invoke to, say, prohibit the target from using a Dodge (athletics) style defense. Alternatively, use one or both Aspects as justification for offering the NPC/GM a Concession to the fight. Assuming you haven't rolled yet that is.
Either way, he is not going to get a straight Weapon Rating increase in my opinion. As always, go with what makes your group happy with the story and game! ;D
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Makes sense to me. After reading your refresher on shaped charges, it's now clear to me that the grenade in the Superman Hand still wouldn't match an equivalent explosive that was actually formed for AP or cutting. I wonder though if it wouldn't still get some bonus for being like a (sloppilly) tamped demo charge.
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My opinion as a Civil Engineer that has blasting experience: No. Not enough to really worry about.
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I'll take that as gospel from an expert then. ;D
Thanks for the info!
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What the character was doing was an cupped open palmed punch to the face of the enemy big bad which meant that half grendade was in contact with the enemies face.
Grenades have timed fuses - they aren't impact detonated. So basically you'd be slapping somebody with a rock in your hand, and hoping the rock blows up after (rather than before) you hit them, but not so much after (say less than .25 sec) that you'd have been equally well off just dropping it at your feet when standing next to the target.
Now, use some grappling to shove the thing under the guys chin, and hold it there till it blows up.... that would work, but is a far cry from a "grenade punch".
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A weapon rating increase by 1 means half an order of magnitude to an order of magnitude of increase in energy. I.e. weapon 2 is a pistol. Weapon 3 is a machinegun or shotgun. Weapon 4 is a grenade or dynamite stick. Weapon 5 is a rocket launcher. IMHO, most things you can do to a grenade would not increase the damage nearly enough to warrant a weapon rating increase.
Now, if you used the grenade in a single-opening iron tube to propell a 7-pound lead projectile... you'd have a crude but fairly effective napoleon-era cannon. That might be weapon 5.
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Grenades have timed fuses - they aren't impact detonated. So basically you'd be slapping somebody with a rock in your hand, and hoping the rock blows up after (rather than before) you hit them, but not so much after (say less than .25 sec) that you'd have been equally well off just dropping it at your feet when standing next to the target.
Now, use some grappling to shove the thing under the guys chin, and hold it there till it blows up.... that would work, but is a far cry from a "grenade punch".
Ah your right, I didn't think that through very well that is what you get for running a DFRP on the rule of cool rather than sense.
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Hey, don't let things like physics and all that get in the way of having fun with a good story! I just throw out the hard physics/engineering for those that are curious or interested.
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The way I would run it is the damage of the punch would stand alone.
Then at the beginning of the the next round when the grenade finally went off whether it be on the floor or still in the hand, everyone in the zone would have to roll defense for it.
Relatively simple. It wouldn't make a stronger attack, but it could allow a being with ridiculous toughness and some strength to make 2 "attacks" in one round.
And if they made a habit of doing this, I would definitely limit how many grenades they could acquire.
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Grenades have timed fuses - they aren't impact detonated. So basically you'd be slapping somebody with a rock in your hand, and hoping the rock blows up after (rather than before) you hit them, but not so much after (say less than .25 sec) that you'd have been equally well off just dropping it at your feet when standing next to the target.
Now, use some grappling to shove the thing under the guys chin, and hold it there till it blows up.... that would work, but is a far cry from a "grenade punch".
There have been hand grenades designed to go off on impact, but I don't know if anybody still uses or even makes them considering they offer way less margin for awfucks than a timed fuse would.
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I know that the Italians and British both issued contact hand grenades during World War II; though largely in the early years of the war and were largely phased out. The Brits, Germans, and Soviets all had contact Anti-Tank Hand Grenades. Yes, hand thrown AT grenades. The Brit one looked like a thermos.
I don't know of anyone still issuing contact hand grenades today, though.
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"punching someone in the face with a live grenede"
Here's a phrase you don't often hear.
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Close?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Wz6ZG7zpH1U/TI6soh6OdNI/AAAAAAAAAYs/zADJNW79qOk/s1600/Tomic+Energy.JPG)