ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Sanctaphrax on February 09, 2011, 06:17:00 PM
-
Has anyone given thought to methods of handling the use of vehicles in combat? I just read a bit about the use of chariots in ancient warfare, and it got me thinking.
Here's how I think I'll handle it:
Each vehicle (be it a horse, a chariot, a car, or a helicopter) has one driver and a reasonable number of passengers. All of these characters must stay in the same zone at all times. The driver's Driving (or Survival) skill restricts all rolls made by characters in the vehicle. The only character who can move is the driver, and when he moves all other characters in the vehicle must follow. In addition, many vehicles can be used as weapons (Weapon 2 or 3 for a horse, weapon 4 or 5 for a car). Moving or attacking with vehicles uses Driving (or Survival) instead of the normal skill. Entering or leaving a vehicle requires an action, but has no chance of failure unless somebody tries to oppose it.
I think that almost everything else can be covered with aspects. But I'm not sure how to handle situations where the driver and the passengers aren't on the same side.
Thoughts?
-
What sort of situations are you envisioning?
-
A guy on a horse vs a guy on foot.
A car full of mobsters trying to gun down some fey.
Two old-fashioned armies clashing, both using cavalry and chariots.
Come to think of it, this set of rules doesn't do much for vehicles with only one person in/on them. Any ideas on how to make that less of a problem?
-
A guy on a horse vs a guy on foot.
Some thoughts:
Substitute the horse's Athletics for the rider's for moving between Zones, which *may* give the rider an advantage in relative positioning, if they aren't *there* to be hit when it comes time for the guy on foot to attack.
Have the horse's stats Modify a rider's skill check (gaining a +1 to appropriate attack or defense rolls).
Allow the rider to make a move and attack without the -1 penalty for a Supplemental action because it is the horse doing the moving.
Have the horse rolling the defense checks, or have the horse's stats Modify a rider's defense check.
Or any combination of the above.
A car full of mobsters trying to gun down some fey.
The two advantage mechanisms are:
The car allows the mobsters to attack and get away with minimal chance of counterattack, which would be reflected in Zone Movement, possibly using Athletics.
The other advantage is relative defense, so the car could count as Armor 1-3 against attacks (the occupants could follow up with their own dodge ability if the Armor block is bypassed).
Two old-fashioned armies clashing, both using cavalry and chariots.
My instinct says this should just be plot background. The outcome of a battle such as this, in a story told at the scale of DFRPG, shouldn't be random, or if the outcome needs to be uncertain, tie it to the PCs' success or failure. Plot expedience should determine which side wins, depending on whether the next step is for the heroes to:
- find another way to win
- simply survive adversity
- follow through on their victory and end the conflict once and for all
- etc.
Strands of Fate has a whole system for dealing with Vehicles. Sadly, my main goal was to figure out how to make a bicycle an asset in a similar conflict, but it didn't scale that far down.
-
there are vehicle rules in Star Blazers and Strands of Fate that you might find useful.
-
You definitely need to stat out the vehicles- physical stress only. A spell can take down a car, but it's harder. The scale would be higher (obviously, a car takes a hit better than a mortal does). Consider weaknesses on a car- like the wheels or the driver.
For passengers, Go with Driving skills (with Survival and Guns, Discipline as needed). Are the car's other occupants casting spells (higher discipline roll due to moving car, combat, the like).
-
Do not forget Hexing.
-
I would also give a mounted character that was using an appropriate weapon (large melee weapons) an additional +1 to their weapon rating. Additionally, I would only give them a bonus to their armor against melee weapons. After all, the cops can shoot a guy off a horse just fine. Knocking him off or even hitting him with a baton is a whole other matter. So, if I were making the call I would go with this for mounted:
- +1 Weapon rating for any large melee weapon (no daggers folks)
- +1 Armor rating against unmounted melee attacks
- Use Horses Athletics and Endurance for movement
- Moving does not count as a supplemental action.
- Unless this is a trained warhorse, rider must make a Survival skill check to move into combat on the horse and would have the Aspect Skittish while involved in combat.
As for the horse making attacks, this would be on the GM unless, again, this is a trained warhorse. Not many of those around anymore.
Hope that helps some.
-
I appreciate the responses, but unfortunately most of them just aren't what I'm looking for. Here are my objectives:
1. To have a single system that is applicable to all fights in which at least one party has a vehicle.
2. To have that system make logical sense.
3. To avoid needing stats for every horse or every car beyond those needed for ordinary weapons and armour.
4. To avoid piling up situational modifiers.
Thinking it over, I have three things to add/change that ought to make vehicles more worthwhile:
1. Vehicles can have armour ratings in addition to weapon ratings. A horse might be armour 1 vs melee, an armoured car might be armour 3 vs almost everything.
2. Being in a vehicle or mounted is an aspect and can be tagged once.
3. A driver can move one zone with no action or sprint (using Driving or Survival) with a supplemental action.
I think that attempts to damage or destroy vehicles can be handled as maneuvers. I'm still debating whether Driving should be usable as a defence. And I now wish that I owned Strands Of Fate.
-
I think that attempts to damage or destroy vehicles can be handled as maneuvers. I'm still debating whether Driving should be usable as a defence. And I now wish that I owned Strands Of Fate.
Don't worry about it too much - I'm finding much of the "crunch" of SoF to be somewhat incompatible with DFRPG. Their vehicle chapter *is* a good example of the FATE fractal, however.
I think the type of challenge you want to present will determine the way to run it in game. Any single one of these situations can be handled a variety of ways in a story, depending on the rhetorical impact it is intended to produce. And in-game, the players may also offer creative ways to "solve" a particular problem. I think the lowest common denominators are Aspects, Fate Points, Invokes, Tags, Compels, etc.
Edit: which sounds like I'm saying "don't bother" with the rules, but I certainly don't mean it that way.
-
You have a point, but I really want a set of consistent rules. I think that you should be able to play a horse-riding knight as a PC, and that doesn't seem to be possible at present.
-
I disagree. I think you could easily play a mounted PC. The question is how to do it.
Also, I'm not exactly sure you really know what you want here. You want a comprehensive, logical rules system for vehicle/mounted combat that avoids creating stats and situational modifiers. Perhaps it is the engineer in me and, more likely, that I am missing something, but those two criteria seem to be at odds.
What we have now (RAW) is a system that does not hand us a vehicle stats and situational modifiers. You pull out, as Devon said, Aspects, Invokes, Tags and Compels. I would throw Maneuvers in there as well with the vehicle/mount providing the justification for that maneuver.
If you want more than that, in my mind, would require creating stats and situational modifiers.
;D
-
I don't want stats beyond those already possessed by equipment. Weapon and armour ratings are fine, aspects are fine, quality ratings are fine, other things probably aren't.
And while I don't want situational modifiers, I'm fine with changing rules. For examples, check out what I've already posted.
-
I would through Maneuvers in there as well with the vehicle/mount providing the justification for that maneuver.
Indeed!
Make an Athletics check for the Sticky Aspect "Skilled Horseman" or "Charge!!!!!" which can be free-tagged for an initial attack bonus.
Make a Driving check for the Sticky Aspect "Skilled Wheelman" or "Gun it!" which can be free-tagged for a getaway bonus (whichever roll that occurs).
Make a Resources, Burglary or Contacts check for the Sticky Aspect "Big Car" and free-tag it for a +2 to a dodge roll.
I think statting up a Horse was already done somewhere.. can't possibly think of where... ::looks at Sanctaphrax's tagline::
Oh, maybe here (http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Monsters)
-
I always gravitate to Maneuvers a lot as that has been the part of the game that my players have latched onto and grasped the best so far. They are still shaky at best with Declarations and Compels.
As for Sanctaphrax, gotcha. Handing out a Weapon or Armor Rating when needed is fairly easy. Same with Aspects. Just did that for a horse a few posts back. So, what about that did you not like or didn't work for you? What was missing or to much? Mind you that one could just say that the Weapon and Armor ratings given are without conditions and you get them regardless. Those are more my spin on it after all.
-
Look, I'm glad that you guys feel you can do without such rules. And I know about the existence of horse stats.
But that isn't what this thread is for. You can always maneuver for aspects related to this or that circumstance. I'm trying to go a step beyond that.
So please, no more comments about how I should give up with this approach. I'm looking for feedback on the rules I posted and other suggestions. Not "do something else".
Sorry if that sounded tetchy.
EDIT: Kommisar posted while I was writing this. I haven't actually used this yet. I came up with this because I figured that a vehicle with multiple people could have a division of labour system where one person moves for the whole group, and it kinda snowballed from there.
-
For examples, check out what I've already posted.
Do you mean what you post in general, or is there some kernel in this thread we can work from? We want to help, but as Komissar said, we're having trouble figuring out how because your needs seem (to us) to contradict.
-
Sorry. I'm talking about things like "sprint as a supplemental action" "Driving restricts all skills" "all characters move with the driver" and "one free tag". They aren't modifiers, but they do modify things.
Does that help?
-
Sure! Here are my thoughts so far, based on your initial ideas:
Vehicles have armour ratings in addition to weapon ratings.
• Horse or most other mount animals: Armour:1 vs melee
• Bicycle or Motorcycle: no armor
• Sports Car: Armour:1 vs almost everything
• Van, station wagon, large car: Armour:2 vs almost everything
• Armoured car: Armour:3 vs almost everything
• Tank or APC: Armour:4 vs everything
Vehicle Aspects: Being in a vehicle or mounted is an automatic, free Aspect which can be tagged once for free. Subsequent tags cost a Fate Point. Players can use Declarations to add additional Aspects or a Gun to a vehicle.
Zones: Vehicles, by default, have one zone, and a Zone Border equal to the Armour rating. Except for horses, you cannot directly target an occupant within that Zone unless you are either in the same Zone, or overcome the Armour rating with your Weapons or Guns roll. Large vehicles, such as boats and cargo vessels, can have multiple Zones, and depending on circumstances, you cannot cross from one Zone to another without overcoming the Zone Border, unless there is a specific Aspect you can tag to allow easy access.
Weapons: personnel on a vehicle use their own Weapons or Guns; vehicles with an on-board Gun allow a user to use their own Weapons score. Effective ranged combat requires cooperation between the driver and any passengers, so everyone's Guns skill is Modified by the Driver's Driving Skill (good drivers are effective at setting up shots for their gunners, while bad drivers jerk and change course at inconvenient times).
Movement: A driver can move one zone with no action or sprint (using Driving, Athletics or Survival) with a supplemental action.
Defense: Driving should be usable as a defense when in a car, and Athletics or Survival when on a horse.
Other Skill Checks: Passengers using a Skill check in a moving vehicle are not considered to be taking a supplemental action, and are not penalized for the movement, except for a rider on a horse or other animal. That said, almost any Skill roll which involves hand-eye coordination will be Restricted by the driver's Driving skill (especially if the Driver is trying to attack while driving). Certain skills may be Modified instead by the driver's Driving skill, getting a +1 or -1 based on relative ability: Guns, when used to attack passengers in or on another vehicle, benefits from a savvy driver's coordination, but likewise suffers from a poor driver's untutored driving.
Vehicle Skills: Vehicles can have stats just like a character does.
• Maneuverability: A vehicle’s Maneuverability reflects its speed and handling. It Modifies a driver’s Driving skill. For attacks on the vehicle, it works in reverse: the vehicle’s Maneuverability is Modified by the Driving skill of the driver. Otherwise this is like the Athletics skill. 4 is suitable for a motorcycle or sports car, 3 is for a regular car or truck, 2 is for a van, lorry, or light cargo vehicle, while 1 and lower are for a heavy cargo vehicle, armored tank, or construction vehicle.
• Endurance: A vehicle’s Endurance determines its Stress track, and its resistance to Hexing or other attempts to disable the vehicle. 1 is suitable for a Motorcycle, 2 is for a sports car, 3 is for a regular car, van or truck, 4 and higher are for armoured cars, cargo vehicles, construction vehicles, lorries, etc.
• Might: a vehicle’s Might determines its ability to carry or tow personnel and cargo. Figure the carrying capacity as 20 times the equivalent Might of a human. 1 is suitable for a Motorcycle, 2 is for a sports car, 3 is for a regular car, 4 and higher are for cargo vehicles, trucks, etc.
Mounted Animal Skills: When you don’t want to provide full stats for a mount creature, you should still determine the following skills.
• Maneuverability: A mount’s Maneuverability is functionally the same as its Athletics skill. For attacks on the mount, it works in reverse: the animal’s Maneuverability is Modified by the Driving skill of the rider.
• Endurance: A mount animal’s Endurance determines its Stress track, and works just like any other creature’s Endurance.
• Might: A mount animal’s Might determines its ability to carry or tow personnel and cargo. Horses usually have Inhuman Strength, while other Mounts may have Supernatural or even Mythic Strength.
Weapons:
Animal Mounts: Trained warhorses or other combat-ready mounts have the equivalent of the Claws power (Weapon:2), usually enhanced by Inhuman or greater Strength.
Ramming a Pedestrian: A vehicle in motion used to ram a pedestrian acts as Weapon:5 by default (except motorcycles, which are Weapon:2), and use the driver’s Driving skill to determine a successful attack. The driver can sacrifice 2 shifts to affect every pedestrian in a Zone, or split up the attack as a Spray attack to be more precise about which opponents are struck. Common sense should determine how precise such an attack should truly be. Parked vehicles which are used to strike a pedestrian are just a Weapon:2, and use the driver’s Driving skill to determine a successful attack.
Optional: for added variety, use a vehicle’s Might and Maneuverability skills to Modify, Restrict or Enhance the Driving skill depending on whether or not you rule speed and mass to be a benefit or liability.
Ramming Another Vehicle: Against other vehicles, a vehicle’s Armour rating determines its Weapon value (minimum Weapon:1), unless it has been weaponized with additional Aspects, such as Spikes. Direct vehicle-to-vehicle ramming attacks are resolved by a contested roll between the Driving skill of the two drivers, Modified by each vehicle’s Maneuverability. Successful attacks deal Weapon:X damage against the Vehicle, reduced by its Armour rating.
Mounted Weapons: Additional Weapons mounted to a vehicle can be Declared with Resources, Contacts or other appropriate Skills checks. Mounted Weapons can range from Weapon:1 for minor inconveniencing effects like Dart Guns or Spikes, to military-level Weapons as high as 3, 4 or even 5. “Melee” Vehicle Weapons like Spikes use the Driving skill of the driver, modified by the vehicle’s Maneuverability. Ranged Vehicle Weapons like Machine Guns, Rocket Launchers, Grappling Hooks and similar Weapons use the Guns skill of the gunner, Modified by the Driving skill of the driver.
-
I've actually ran a car chase in my game.
I established the interior of each car as a zone that included the car itself.
I then established zones for behind the chasing vehicle, 3 zones between the two vehicles, and in front of the lead vehicle. Oh, and I added in sidewalk zones for possible fun and trouble. Each zone, I said, was roughly a car length in size.
I established which of the PCs was driving the Boston Themed 70's rock-god van and off we went!
Some spells were slung, hexxing checks were made (and passed), some gun fire was exchanged (I gave the van an armor rating of 2 with 6 stresses and an extra minor consequence and the Fiat an armor of 2 and 4 stresses), and eventually the PCs in the van got away after the driver made her opposed driving check by 6 shifts. She ended up using two maneuvers of her own backed by a spell maneuver that iced the zone between the two cars.
As for gun fire, I ruled that the Russian Mobsters in the Fiat could not specifically target any of the PCs since they could not see them well. So, any attack that got through the armor value of the van would randomly strike someone (or not). Oh, and armor value of the vehicles included, in my mind, the possibility of deflecting or fracturing rounds.
With this set up, technically, no one was crossing zone boundaries. But, it was a very specific situation but worked well for a chase. If the mobsters wanted to close with the PCs, they had to beat a block against crossing the zone boundary established by the driver making a drive skill roll. Essentially an opposed skill check.
Add - Ohhh, I should have thought about modifying skill rolls based on the drivers skill. I will next time; though their wheel wizard is pretty good.
-
I recon any vehicle armour could be bypassed by shooting through the windows or windscreen with perhaps an exception for Armoured Cars. I would rule it that when attacking via collision you should take damage equal to your attack roll minus armour which would get less the bigger the car you used because of the increasing armour rating.
-
SoF sounds a bit too detailed, but not abhorrently so.
What you have there looks good (at least to me, which isn't surprising since a lot of it is the same as what I thought of).
But I have to wonder why you didn't include anything about staying in the same zone as the driver. Logically, you can't be in the same car on different streets.
The question is now, I think, should passengers have to take the -1 supplemental action penalty when the car moves? And should the driver be able to use his Driving to defend other characters?
EDIT: 2 posts while I was writing. I think that shooting through the windows would be an Invoke For Effect or perhaps an application of Spin. I think that making a better attack roll should not increase the damage you take. And the car chase that Kommisar ran sounds quite cool, but not generally applicable.
-
I recon any vehicle armour could be bypassed by shooting through the windows or windscreen with perhaps an exception for Armoured Cars. I would rule it that when attacking via collision you should take damage equal to your attack roll minus armour which would get less the bigger the car you used because of the increasing armour rating.
How easy do we want window shots to be, Sanctaphrax?
-
But I have to wonder why you didn't include anything about staying in the same zone as the driver. Logically, you can't be in the same car on different streets.
Depends on the vehicle. Maybe a tank could have two zones: one for the gun on top, one for the driver and the remaining personnel. A boat could have as few as two zones or several hundred.
-
Even standard (and modern) car windshields are fairly tough. And, they are generally sloped. So, unless you are throwing some high caliber bullets or close range, there is a chance that a bullet would fragment or deflect on impact. And a bullet doesn't have to deflect like it would off the chest of Superman to miss the target. A few degrees might suffice. Older vehicles made pre-safety glass, though, might just make matters worse for the target.
If you wanted to bypass the armor of a vehicle by targeting a window, I would call it a maneuver to place an Aiming tag of some sort that gives you a +2 on your next shot. Which, against most civilian vehicles would counter/eliminate the armor.
-
Kommisar's approach to window shooting sounds good.
As for zones, I think that we can all agree that all passengers move with the vehicle and must be inside it, right? They aren't really passengers otherwise.
-
As for zones, I think that we can all agree that all passengers move with the vehicle and must be inside it, right? They aren't really passengers otherwise.
For the sake of completion, I added it and other notes to the writeup (see above).
-
I would, and have, ruled that the passengers do not get penalized for a supplemental action for the movement. Just does not make much sense to me. Modifying certain skill rolls using the drivers Drive Skill does. Shooting, modified. Lore check... not so much. Use common sense here.
As for my chase example, I wrote that up just as an example of a different approach for something like that. A demonstration of how flexible the rules can be and work with different approaches to the same set up.
-
What about using the car as a weapon... such as "run'em down" type attack.
would the speed plus size determine the weapon value of the vehicle?
-
What about using the car as a weapon... such as "run'em down" type attack.
would the speed plus size determine the weapon value of the vehicle?
They have rules for that already - I think it is weapon:4 or weapon:5.
-
So as not to be broken the hit roll would be drive and the weapon rating would be 5 (cars and above), consider the drive bonus to take into account the speed the car is travelling.
-
I made many updated to the rules compilation (see above).
-
How would account for differences in scale? Not so much size (although certainly Diminuitive/Hulking Size can be a basis), but scales between toughness and speed and such? Would a tank have Mythic Toughness with a Catch of "Anti-Tank Weapons", for example? Do all cars implicitly have Superhuman Speed or the like so they can outrun a WCV but have trouble with a BCV?
-
How would account for differences in scale? Not so much size (although certainly Diminuitive/Hulking Size can be a basis), but scales between toughness and speed and such? Would a tank have Mythic Toughness with a Catch of "Anti-Tank Weapons", for example? Do all cars implicitly have Superhuman Speed or the like so they can outrun a WCV but have trouble with a BCV?
Excellent points. But the OP's exercise is to avoid having to fully stat out vehicle and mounts.
In the FATE Fractal, yes, we would build the vehicles using the same powers as characters, and when the scale gets beyond what character-level powers can/should do, we "zoom out" and set a new standard for Mediocre (+0) when we build things on the higher scale. So the DFRPG rules would probably work for anything up to the size of an APC, bus, tank or small yacht. But once you get into aircraft carriers, cruise liners, cargo ships, space stations, mobile cities, flying islands, massive space ships, "Hulking Size" doesn't adequately cover it, so we zoom out and figure how to multiple everything in relation to the next lower point in the Fractal.
-
This system is only intended to model the use of vehicles in human-scaled combat. Races, naval battles, and the like are outside of their scope.
I need to think about the latest edition of the rules a little more before I comment on it.