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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: MrobFire on February 04, 2011, 10:26:08 PM

Title: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: MrobFire on February 04, 2011, 10:26:08 PM
I do like how normal casting is portrayed in this system. It seems like this accurately characterizes how Harry is generally completely spent after even short battles in the books,
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However, it does seem rather limiting that even an expert caster could probably only get off at most, lets say eight spells (mental stress track + consequences and maybe some physical consequences for good measure). We have instances in the books where
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It seems to me that there are a couple of reasonable solutions/interpretations to this issue:
1) Possibly RAW is sufficient and it's just standard operating procedure for wizards to fight in shifts (I would guess three) so as to trigger the rest between scenes rules to clear the stress track. Thus, whenever we see a group of wardens engaged in pitched battle in the book,
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they were ultimately screwed since they would quickly burn through their magic (i.e. mental stress),
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2) Another possibility is that we should add a couple of stunts that full battle mages would take. I'm seeing one stunt (battle mage or whatever) that allows you to cast magic with no stress if your discipline roll is double the shifts of power you decide to use. You could probably add another optional stunt chained off of the first stunt (call it battle master [originality for the win!]) where simply achieving spin on your discipline roll to control your shifts of power (i.e. power+3) obviates the need to take stress.
3) We could allow for a new mechanic where a pertinent loose (non sticky at least, I can't remember the terminology off the top of my head) aspect on a character can be tagged by that character to cast a spell and the use of that tag would be to cast the spell for 0 base stress. An example of this would be that a character could do a navel gazing conviction maneuver to place the aspect gathered power on him/herself. Then, next turn, could use the free tag of that spell to cast without taking mental stress.
4) Finally, it could be argued that Sponsored magic is much more common than I would have thought and that most mages expecting to enter battle would find one or more sponsors that they could incur debt with in exchange for powering their magic.

A somewhat related question I had was how you would portray the battle in Small Favor where
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tl;dr Long post is long, what do y'all think about taking mental stress for casting pretty much every spell?
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: bibliophile20 on February 04, 2011, 11:26:30 PM
Rotes are your friend.  No mental stress needed, and if you've set up your skills, specializations and foci right, you can easily sling epically nasty death-dealing rays of fire each exchange with no mental stress. 
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: bitterpill on February 04, 2011, 11:31:32 PM
I think your wrong about the mental stress from rotes, the only benfit rotes give is that it means you do not have to roll discipline.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: Drachasor on February 04, 2011, 11:33:24 PM
Yeah, I just reread the section, no benefit other than you treat controlling the spell as if you rolled 0 on your Discipline.

Sort of makes sense if it reduced the mental stress by 1 (minimum 0), so that simple magic was easy for you...then again, that might get OP as time goes on.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: bitterpill on February 04, 2011, 11:38:09 PM
Considering FP at submerged who invest all his refresh in refinement can have a base power of 9 that would be utterly de-balancing.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: Drachasor on February 04, 2011, 11:40:05 PM
It seems to me that there are a couple of reasonable solutions/interpretations to this issue:
1) Possibly RAW is sufficient and it's just standard operating procedure for wizards to fight in shifts (I would guess three) so as to trigger the rest between scenes rules to clear the stress track. Thus, whenever we see a group of wardens engaged in pitched battle in the book,
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they were ultimately screwed since they would quickly burn through their magic (i.e. mental stress),
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Possibly you can have spells that get rid of mental stress in others.  In a battle situation, this might mean the non-fighting types use spells like this to keep the fighters going.  Or shifts, as you said.

I agree that it does often seem like they use a lot more magic in the books.  However, typically if you actually look at each fight, Harry doesn't cast more than a handful of spells.  He uses some enchanted items to compensate.  Still, there are some fights where he uses 6 or more spells....but the math is MOSTLY right.

2) Another possibility is that we should add a couple of stunts that full battle mages would take. I'm seeing one stunt (battle mage or whatever) that allows you to cast magic with no stress if your discipline roll is double the shifts of power you decide to use. You could probably add another optional stunt chained off of the first stunt (call it battle master [originality for the win!]) where simply achieving spin on your discipline roll to control your shifts of power (i.e. power+3) obviates the need to take stress.

Hmm, maybe just adding that effects to routes, especially the "Discipline Roll more than double".  That plays well into the books where Luccio and others have such fine control they barely need to exert effort to cast spells since they use so little energy.  Also it should scale pretty well compared to pure mortals and such.

3) We could allow for a new mechanic where a pertinent loose (non sticky at least, I can't remember the terminology off the top of my head) aspect on a character can be tagged by that character to cast a spell and the use of that tag would be to cast the spell for 0 base stress. An example of this would be that a character could do a navel gazing conviction maneuver to place the aspect gathered power on him/herself. Then, next turn, could use the free tag of that spell to cast without taking mental stress.

Mmm, but you can use thaumaturgy to place multiple maneuvers on yourself, or magical items.  Seems like this would get broken to me.

4) Finally, it could be argued that Sponsored magic is much more common than I would have thought and that most mages expecting to enter battle would find one or more sponsors that they could incur debt with in exchange for powering their magic.

Well, the sponsored rules are a bit unclear here.  The only official debt all sponsors grant is for invoking aspects.  There's a sidebar on downbelow helping to power spells, but nothing that says this is generally allowed...oddly enough.

In practice in the game, a wizard or the like can compensate with magical items to help give him added offense, much like Harry does in the books.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: Drachasor on February 04, 2011, 11:44:15 PM
Considering FP at submerged who invest all his refresh in refinement can have a base power of 9 that would be utterly de-balancing.

I liked the idea for half-power though.  If your control is 8 or 9, you can cast the relevant spells at 4 shifts without mental stress.  The FP is still a bit too powerful there, but honestly the GM should probably stop such a person from happening to begin with...that's a little too focused, imho.  That or they could play up the limitations of such a person...as they are way too focused in one area...but still, that's probably just too powerful in general given the massive ability to hit things.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: UmbraLux on February 05, 2011, 02:08:55 AM
tl;dr Long post is long, what do y'all think about taking mental stress for casting pretty much every spell?
From a meta-game point of view, it's necessary for balance.  From a story point of view, it may work better than you think.  Remember, stress is per scene.  That day long battle you mentioned?  How often did they get several minutes to catch their breath?  Each of those mini-breaks signifies a new scene.  Stress will be cleared though consequences remain.  In any case, he's caught his breath and can cast a few more spells...
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: arete on February 05, 2011, 02:26:43 AM
Do not forget the awesome pot in the book that helps deal with mental stress.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: JustinS on February 05, 2011, 02:45:50 AM
The easy way to build a battle mage is to take the 'fire breathing' power, using Discipline as the skill, for free power 2, range +1 Zone 'magic' attacks till you get board. You could also use Toughness powers, or a bonus to defense stunt for low powered shield effects.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: BumblingBear on February 05, 2011, 02:51:11 AM
The easy way to build a battle mage is to take the 'fire breathing' power, using Discipline as the skill, for free power 2, range +1 Zone 'magic' attacks till you get board. You could also use Toughness powers, or a bonus to defense stunt for low powered shield effects.

My character is kind of going the battlemage route, and I am giving him a few physical supernatural abilities so he's not defenseless when out of mental stress.

He won't be as powerful or versatile as a full wizard, but his focus in combat will give him in edge in most fights against similar refresh opponents.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: bitterpill on February 05, 2011, 03:04:41 AM
How do you justify taking supernatural abilities as a mortal caster? Im curious because I can't think of a way to do otherwise my FP would be taking regeneration.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: UmbraLux on February 05, 2011, 03:10:25 AM
How do you justify taking supernatural abilities as a mortal caster? Im curious because I can't think of a way to do otherwise my FP would be taking regeneration.
Change the trappings.  It's not a supernatural breath weapon, is a supremely practiced spell.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: BumblingBear on February 05, 2011, 03:15:09 AM
How do you justify taking supernatural abilities as a mortal caster? Im curious because I can't think of a way to do otherwise my FP would be taking regeneration.

For my character it's because he's an emissary of power.  Changes:
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Right now my character is fairly low refresh so his only physical ability is tied up in his sponsored magic and his IOP.  I plan in the future to give any additional powers directly to him.  The rational is that channeling all of that power and being around the things he is constantly around has been changing him, making him more supernatural.

For another character, a few ideas on how to get physical abilities:

* A ritual went right
* A ritual went wrong
* The character is actually a changeling
* The character is bitten or scratched by something that infects him
* The character gets a favor from a powerful entity (not all favors have to be sponsored magic)
* The character can have an IOP that gives them abilities
* A certain food, fruit, or serum can give them a power - and a dependency.  This could be an awesome way to get compels and to get a power at a lower cost (due to the dependency).
* The PC (if a wizard) could have made an enchanted item to give a supernatural strength or something.  I'm assuming most GMs would allow this if the PC also took the refresh hit that the power would normally require.

etc.

I hope that helps.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 05, 2011, 03:39:32 AM
As I see it, Wardens have swords for that very reason. Using magic all the time simply isn't feasible.

Some people will let you take a stunt that adds a mental stress box. Whether this is balanced is an open question.

It's probably sensible to say that self-inflicted harm from spellcasting automatically satisfies catches. Which makes wizards with Recovery a lot more reasonable.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: jybil178 on February 05, 2011, 09:14:22 AM
For my character it's because he's an emissary of power.  
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Right now my character is fairly low refresh so his only physical ability is tied up in his sponsored magic and his IOP.  I plan in the future to give any additional powers directly to him.  The rational is that channeling all of that power and being around the things he is constantly around has been changing him, making him more supernatural.

For another character, a few ideas on how to get physical abilities:

* A ritual went right
* A ritual went wrong
* The character is actually a changeling
* The character is bitten or scratched by something that infects him
* The character gets a favor from a powerful entity (not all favors have to be sponsored magic)
* The character can have an IOP that gives them abilities
* A certain food, fruit, or serum can give them a power - and a dependency.  This could be an awesome way to get compels and to get a power at a lower cost (due to the dependency).
* The PC (if a wizard) could have made an enchanted item to give a supernatural strength or something.  I'm assuming most GMs would allow this if the PC also took the refresh hit that the power would normally require.

etc.

I hope that helps.

It should be a rule to put the book your spoiler is from in front of the blackened text... >.<
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: jybil178 on February 05, 2011, 09:30:18 AM
As I see it, Wardens have swords for that very reason. Using magic all the time simply isn't feasible.

Some people will let you take a stunt that adds a mental stress box. Whether this is balanced is an open question.

It's probably sensible to say that self-inflicted harm from spellcasting automatically satisfies catches. Which makes wizards with Recovery a lot more reasonable.

There really isn't any precedent for a stunt to increase someones stress, and it strains the confines of what a stunt normally does...  The biggest problem is the extra stress is variable... It could end up being the third, fourth, or fifth stress box, which would make it stronger and stronger, something that no stunt to the best of my knowledge really does.  The best you could do is convert the No Pain, No Gain stunt into a similar one for a Mild Mental Consequence, with the current set of rules...  Hendricks has a kinda similar stunt on his character sheet, called I Have a Job to Do, or something like that, that lets his mental stress be determined by his Discipline, rather than Conviction.  Kinda sets a little bit of a base, that the books just don't add copy's of stunts, due to word count and such.

Btw, that stunt, as well as Person of Conviction bot allow you to use one skill instead of another to determine your stress capacity.  If you get that skill to 5, would you also get the Mild Consequence as well, or would that only be granted through the original skill?
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: rickayelm on February 05, 2011, 10:30:58 PM
I always thought that battle mages relied on enchanted objects for extra spells. Which is why Harry made all those extra force rings after he beacame a warden, he had three on each finger so that is a total of 24 extra atack spells with zero stress. I am sure that most of the wardens have their favorite battle spells enchanted into magical objects to give them more combat power.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: BumblingBear on February 05, 2011, 10:34:32 PM
I always thought that battle mages relied on enchanted objects for extra spells. Which is why Harry made all those extra force rings after he beacame a warden, he had three on each finger so that is a total of 24 extra atack spells with zero stress. I am sure that most of the wardens have their favorite battle spells enchanted into magical objects to give them more combat power.

Harry is not and has not ever been much of a combat wizard.

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Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: bitterpill on February 05, 2011, 10:40:58 PM
Im pretty certain your worng about Harry his stick was more power than subtly
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: BumblingBear on February 05, 2011, 10:58:35 PM
Im pretty certain your worng about Harry his stick was more power than subtly

For evocation, yes.

However, that is ass backwards for a good evocator.

Harry has said multiple times in the books that he sucks at evocation and is good at thaumatergy.

Harry was always in awe of good evocators.

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Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: MrobFire on February 08, 2011, 12:45:18 AM
So do people think a stunt that allowed you to cast rote spells with no mental stress provided that the discipline "roll" is at least double the conviction would be a balanced stunt?
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 08, 2011, 03:40:05 PM
There really isn't any precedent for a stunt to increase someones stress, and it strains the confines of what a stunt normally does... 

There's plenty of precendent in other FATE-system games, actually.  Increasing your stress tracks with stunts is common.  The trick is that a delberate decision was made not to do that for DFRPG, because they wanted grittier fights.  Instead of increased stress, you get extra mild consequences to use.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: infusco on February 08, 2011, 05:10:10 PM
Actually, speaking of the stimulant potion, can someone help me understand exactly how it's crafted and why something like that is allowed? It's indeed a very nice potion, but what stops someone from creating an enchanted item that does exactly the same thing but is reusable? :P

As for allowing supernatural powers as a mortal caster, that's entirely up to GM discretion. YS54 gives an example of creating a werewolf who can do earth evocations. Basically, each of those powers can be mixed and mashed. As long your GM approves it, you're fine. Personally, as a GM, I wouldn't simply because I hate twinks with an overwhelming fury, and I like having a balanced set of characters that have different strengths and weaknesses. The idea of having a focused fire channeler with inhuman strength, speed, and toughness gives me rash :P
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 05:52:10 PM
Actually, speaking of the stimulant potion, can someone help me understand exactly how it's crafted and why something like that is allowed? It's indeed a very nice potion, but what stops someone from creating an enchanted item that does exactly the same thing but is reusable? :P

As for allowing supernatural powers as a mortal caster, that's entirely up to GM discretion. YS54 gives an example of creating a werewolf who can do earth evocations. Basically, each of those powers can be mixed and mashed. As long your GM approves it, you're fine. Personally, as a GM, I wouldn't simply because I hate twinks with an overwhelming fury, and I like having a balanced set of characters that have different strengths and weaknesses. The idea of having a focused fire channeler with inhuman strength, speed, and toughness gives me rash :P

You would really hate my character, then.

Plus, in the books there ARE a lot of mixed and mashed powers.  Like pretty much all the emissaries of power.

I dunno - I think people should be able to play what they want to play.  When I first got interested in RPGs, I walked away from my first game I was slated to play because the GM in question was lazy, didn't want to change his story for anyone, and pretty much demanded I be an elf warrior.

I personally loathe GMs who make the game about them and not the players.  As a player if I have too many rules laid on me before I'm even able to start playing, that pretty much tells me how the game would be too.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: infusco on February 08, 2011, 07:32:45 PM
I personally loathe GMs who make the game about them and not the players.  As a player if I have too many rules laid on me before I'm even able to start playing, that pretty much tells me how the game would be too.

*Grin* You're assuming much. I see it simply from a balance perspective. Even in the novels, all the major protagonists fit into the templates and only the BBEGs end up being huge twinks a la Mavra. I personally feel that the powers are fairly balanced, but can become substantially imbalanced when mix and mashed with min-maxing in mind. Having one character who is super strong, super fast, super enduring AND can throw roaring fireballs of death just makes it less fun for other players who might feel more limited (especially if they're playing a Pure Mortal) and forces me the GM to adjust the challenge of the encounter accordingly. In the end, one character tends to shine, the other characters are forced to play very defensively to deal with the much increased lethality of their opposition, and the non-twink players just end up feeling left out and jaded.

By keeping to the templates and their logical advancements, every player gets a chance to shine in different encounters. Wizards are best when involved in short chaotic battles and with Thaumaturgical effects, White Court Vampires and Were-Creatures are ideal for those long multi-exchange rooftop chases, Pure Mortals tend to be best out of combat and in social challenges or anything involving technology after the 60s (not to mention being the party's wildcard with his huge pool of Fate points), etc ...

It has nothing to do with the wants and desires of the GM unless you're referring to a desire to keep things fun for everyone equally.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 08:14:22 PM
*Grin* You're assuming much. I see it simply from a balance perspective. Even in the novels, all the major protagonists fit into the templates and only the BBEGs end up being huge twinks a la Mavra. I personally feel that the powers are fairly balanced, but can become substantially imbalanced when mix and mashed with min-maxing in mind. Having one character who is super strong, super fast, super enduring AND can throw roaring fireballs of death just makes it less fun for other players who might feel more limited (especially if they're playing a Pure Mortal) and forces me the GM to adjust the challenge of the encounter accordingly. In the end, one character tends to shine, the other characters are forced to play very defensively to deal with the much increased lethality of their opposition, and the non-twink players just end up feeling left out and jaded.

By keeping to the templates and their logical advancements, every player gets a chance to shine in different encounters. Wizards are best when involved in short chaotic battles and with Thaumaturgical effects, White Court Vampires and Were-Creatures are ideal for those long multi-exchange rooftop chases, Pure Mortals tend to be best out of combat and in social challenges or anything involving technology after the 60s (not to mention being the party's wildcard with his huge pool of Fate points), etc ...

It has nothing to do with the wants and desires of the GM unless you're referring to a desire to keep things fun for everyone equally.

This is a logical rebuttal.

What about when it's thematically appropriate to mix and mash, though?  Emissaries of power or scions are the first two kind of character that come to mind...
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 08:35:13 PM
@ infusco  Personally i couldn't care less about weather the characters are balanced, if we want the game to be true to the novels in fact they shouldn't be, harry tends to do all the heavy lifting and theres a reason for that. certainly if you have players who feel left out or aren't having fun then theres a problem.

However whenever possible i prefer to pick players who are playing a game because they want to take part in the same kind of story as portrayed by the setting we are in, so yes some of them should expect and in fact enjoy that they aren't as scary in combat as other characters.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: Drachasor on February 08, 2011, 08:43:42 PM
*Grin* You're assuming much. I see it simply from a balance perspective. Even in the novels, all the major protagonists fit into the templates and only the BBEGs end up being huge twinks a la Mavra. I personally feel that the powers are fairly balanced, but can become substantially imbalanced when mix and mashed with min-maxing in mind. Having one character who is super strong, super fast, super enduring AND can throw roaring fireballs of death just makes it less fun for other players who might feel more limited (especially if they're playing a Pure Mortal) and forces me the GM to adjust the challenge of the encounter accordingly. In the end, one character tends to shine, the other characters are forced to play very defensively to deal with the much increased lethality of their opposition, and the non-twink players just end up feeling left out and jaded.

That's not necessary at all.  If anything, DFRPG handles an imbalance like that really well.  If the GM is just making enemies all stronger to deal with one strong guy, then he's screwing up.  What he should do is just add a few extra enemies, and stack up a few maneuvers on the strong guy or in the scene and have a normal-sized bad guy tag them all in an attack.

It's kind of like Superman on the Justice League.  Everyone is really strong, but Superman, being the strongest, just takes the brunt of the attacks (heck, he does it on purpose since he knows he can take it).  Because of how maneuvers work, the FATE system seems very well-suited for this sort of thing, far better than most any other RPG I've ever played.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 08:54:47 PM
@ infusco  Personally i couldn't care less about weather the characters are balanced, if we want the game to be true to the novels in fact they shouldn't be, harry tends to do all the heavy lifting and theres a reason for that. certainly if you have players who feel left out or aren't having fun then theres a problem.

However whenever possible i prefer to pick players who are playing a game because they want to take part in the same kind of story as portrayed by the setting we are in, so yes some of them should expect and in fact enjoy that they aren't as scary in combat as other characters.

This is true too.

There is a PC in my game who is 2 refresh shorter than everyone else because it was not thematically appropriate for him to be as powerful as everyone else.  He also isn't all that great (yet) in a stand up fight.

However, his character is awesome to interact with (he has a pirate ghost haunting him) and he arguably has the most room to advance of every character at the table.

I see balance being a big deal in MMORPGS, but not RPGs per se.  I mean, plenty of people liked RIFTS (which DFRPG is vastly superior to in every conceivable way - but that is neither here nor there) and part of the cool factor was that two PCs in the same campaign could have such vastly different power levels.

There are games out there for people who want meticulous balance.  D&D 4E is one I can think of off the top of my head.  However, DFRPG is cool as much because everyone an contribute regardless of circumstances if they are creative enough, AND because people can play what they want to play.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: infusco on February 08, 2011, 09:59:37 PM
And a lot of people didn't like RIFTS for that very same reason. Well, that and the insane power creep. ;)

Anyways, in the end, as a GM, my job is to cater to the wishes of the players and to make sure everyone is happy. I've seen many times in the past how a few players with noticeably lower power, or worse skills in min-maxing, have ended up frustrated and bored. Personally, I'm the one running the game because a) I'm a complete Dresden Files fanboy and b) I'm the only one who knows the system really well, although the others know a little bit here and there. So in my case, I'd rather present the players with a balanced playing field using the existing templates than run into a situation where a single player with greater system knowledge would leave the other players scratching their heads. You may disagree with my assessment of the situation if you'd like.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 10:22:46 PM
Quote
I mean, plenty of people liked RIFTS (which DFRPG is vastly superior to in every conceivable way - but that is neither here nor there) and part of the cool factor was that two PCs in the same campaign could have such vastly different power levels.

I played a vagabond.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: newtinmpls on February 13, 2011, 09:44:08 AM
"* A certain food, fruit, or serum can give them a power - and a dependency. This could be an awesome way to get compels and to get a power at a lower cost (due to the dependency)."

How could I NOT think of Popeye here?!


"I think people should be able to play what they want to play. When I first got interested in RPGs, I walked away from my first game I was slated to play because the GM in question was lazy, didn't want to change his story for anyone, and pretty much demanded I be an elf warrior."

I will let the PC's pretty much mix n match from powers, as long as they have a character concept that justifies things; I also am much more generous for players who I know are not compulsive power gamers - if I know (from experience) that someone will push (abuse is too strong a word) their abilities, then I'll restrict them more.

Dian
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: toturi on February 14, 2011, 04:52:42 AM
Anyways, in the end, as a GM, my job is to cater to the wishes of the players and to make sure everyone is happy. I've seen many times in the past how a few players with noticeably lower power, or worse skills in min-maxing, have ended up frustrated and bored.
Some games reward players who spend time and effort to make use of the system, other games try to minimise the effect of superior system knowledge and reward in-game creativity.

Personally I rather have a game where the ability to game the system as well as in-game creativity are rewarded.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: bibliophile20 on February 14, 2011, 04:57:35 AM
Some games reward players who spend time and effort to make use of the system, other games try to minimise the effect of superior system knowledge and reward in-game creativity.

Personally I rather have a game where the ability to game the system as well as in-game creativity are rewarded.
There's another classification in there, where neither the ability to game the system or creativity are rewarded, but this isn't the board to discuss D&D 4th Ed...   ::) :P
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: newtinmpls on February 14, 2011, 06:35:58 AM
I think any game has a learning curve, and just about every GM has various house rules. I'll be happier with the Dresdenverse situation when I'm comfortable enough with it to tweak it.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: sinker on February 14, 2011, 06:41:39 AM
Well, the sponsored rules are a bit unclear here.  The only official debt all sponsors grant is for invoking aspects.  There's a sidebar on downbelow helping to power spells, but nothing that says this is generally allowed...oddly enough.

I would like to point out that at no point in that side bar is downbelow ever mentioned. It is entitled "the dark powers are always willing to help" but really dark powers could describe a lot of different things (the fey seem pretty dark to me). For that matter in the sidebar it simply refers to the practitioner's sponsor. However it doesn't say that it can allow one to cast without stress, merely that a single point of debt can add two shifts to a spell. I suppose one might extrapolate that one could cast a two shift spell for only a single debt, or a four shift spell for two, etc.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: Drachasor on February 14, 2011, 07:03:13 AM
I would like to point out that at no point in that side bar is downbelow ever mentioned. It is entitled "the dark powers are always willing to help" but really dark powers could describe a lot of different things (the fey seem pretty dark to me). For that matter in the sidebar it simply refers to the practitioner's sponsor. However it doesn't say that it can allow one to cast without stress, merely that a single point of debt can add two shifts to a spell. I suppose one might extrapolate that one could cast a two shift spell for only a single debt, or a four shift spell for two, etc.

The example they give in that sidebar is rather explicit.  They say if you have to take a 4-stress mental hit to cast a spell, you can take no hit and instead incur two debt.

I just find it odd considering the yellow boxes are typically optional rules or just a more in-depth explanation of a mentioned mechanic.  Taking a debt for anything except invoking an aspect isn't mentioned anywhere but that box...I dislike that.  Further adding to my annoyance is how it says "sometimes" you can do that...as if implying it is some sort of special occasion.  Capping it off is that allowing that in general makes sponsored magic REALLY powerful compared to non-sponsored magic, since you can potentially double the spells you can cast.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: bitterpill on February 14, 2011, 07:09:59 AM
Sponsored Magic should potent, but a limit of debt is pretty strong in its own right, most GM rule there is a finite amount of debt before you get cut off and having more than a point or two can come in the way of fate point acquisition so it balances out.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: BumblingBear on February 14, 2011, 11:48:59 AM
I think that if a PC is incurring tons and tons of debt, they are not doing their job RPing (because most people generally don't like to be controlled like a puppet) and the GM is not doing his or her job (because sponsor compels are freaking easy and super fun).

If I use sponsored magic in a fight and pay sponsor debt points for more power, I usually get compels during that fight - at least during that session.

Part of the ease of doing this is to make a writeup detailing the sponsor, what kind of magic is granted, what possible compels there are, etc.

My character's sponsor is a polynesian goddess who gave him an obsidian knife when he got his IOP and his sponsored abilities.  He's a combat evocator, but one of his most common compels are to use the knife to attack instead of spells.

Another one that he gets a lot is to burn things, especially before and after combat.  This can be a problem when the things being burned may contain evidence.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: newtinmpls on February 18, 2011, 07:16:24 AM
Question to anyone: how do you do the 'paying' of the aquired debt? Ideas, suggestions??

Pretty please?

Dian
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: MijRai on February 18, 2011, 07:24:24 AM
Question to anyone: how do you do the 'paying' of the aquired debt? Ideas, suggestions??

Pretty please?

Dian

You fufill the Sponsor's Agenda. For the Winter Queen, you'd be doing you Knightly duties. Harry's use of Hellfire would be paid with coming closer to taking the coin, while a Denarian's Hellfire would be paid off with acts of flat evil/taking out risks to their operation. Magic sponsored by Camazotz would probably require blood sacrifice, a nature deity may want you to help protect the rainforest or something, etc.
Title: Re: Magics Limitations due to Mental Stress
Post by: sinker on February 18, 2011, 07:46:18 AM
Harry's use of hellfire was also paid for by his increasingly difficult to deal with temper. That whole scene with his little ball of sunshine was likely a debt compel.

So yeah, it can be paid back one of two ways. By actively helping your sponsor/furthering their agenda (I.E. Elane acting as summer's emmisary). Or by acting in a way that is aligned with their nature in a way that complicates things (I.E. a Kemmlerian Necromancer treating others with cold disregard for life).