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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: chrislackey on January 29, 2011, 04:47:52 PM
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I just got done running The Dresden Files for my group here in Leeds, UK. The game itself, went well. They liked the story and their characters, however the didn't like the mechanics. And seeing them in play, they left a lot to be desired from my stand point. Maybe I was doing something wrong or just not understanding. So here are my main issues and maybe you can point out some things I can do to make this game go smoother.
1) Hard to give the PCs fate points - They use them quickly and it's hard to give them some kind of inconvenience every scene so they can get them back.
2) Having to use fate points to gain bonuses - So one of my characters wants to take cover in a fire fight but he has no fate points to tag the aspect 'crates.' As I understand it, you can't use an aspect unless you have fate points. Seems very counter intuitive.
3) Complicated magic system - anytime the wizard wanted to do something, it took a while. And I have to admit, I often got fuzzy on how if you succeed on a evocation, do you add in the power to the success of the casting? I just felt like it could have been made simpler.
4) Looking up powers - it was tough looking up stats for villains. there was sort of a little cheat box at the bottom, but I had to go to the other book to look up what powers they used. I ended up making my own monster sheets with power descriptions included.
I'm really not trying to start a flame or anything, I just want to try and save this system for my group. they want to ditch it and go with something like primetime adventures or wordplaly. I feel kinda bad thinking I dropped almost $100 bucks for a game I'm gonna play 3 times. Ugh.
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I can see how to fix #1 right now: It is not your responsibility to compel the players every time.
What I mean to say is, the players themselves should be coming up with allot of the compels, I think (and this is a guess) that their aspects are a bit too one sided. Aspects, when used correctly, are like double edged blades. Ideally they each have an upside and a downside. If all of the aspects are mainly beneficial, barring the trouble aspect, its going to be difficult to offer them compels. Talk to your players about this, and see if they can redesign their aspects.
For example, consider the aspect "Obscenely Powerful Magic", how are you going to compel that? Well, I suppose you could compel it for effects that are more powerful than the player wanted, but isn't something like "Magical Thug" even better? It gets across the brute force idea from the first aspect, but it aslo has an implication of unsophisticated magic. That offers more ways to compel it.
If at least 4 of the 7 have downsides you should be able to get fate points pretty easily, I've seen players picking up 2 or 3 fate points per scene, or around six a session in less charitable games.
As for #2, remember that your players can use maneuvers to place aspects, and when they do so they get a free tag on the aspect. Maybe instead of hiding behind the crate they knock them over into a more advantageous arrangement to hide, they put the aspect "Tumbled Crates" down and can tag it for free. Takes a bit longer to setup, but when you are shy of fate points, it does the job if a bit later.
For #3, the Evocation Magic system is actually pretty simple, It has three steps, decide what you want to do, call up the power, and roll to control it. Sort of like, drawing a gun, loading it and firing it. The complication comes from when you dont understand the rules for it as well (this isn't a slight on your part, just invest some more time in learning it).
For #4, This hasn't been a problem for us but I'd recommend getting some index cards with all the powers on them.
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1) Hard to give the PCs fate points - They use them quickly and it's hard to give them some kind of inconvenience every scene so they can get them back.
Remind them to self-compel. Off load some of the responsibility. :) Also, don't forget playing their character's flaws can often be seen as a self compel. When Bob tries to rescue a bystander, is it a random act or a self compel of some 'heroic' aspect?
2) Having to use fate points to gain bonuses - So one of my characters wants to take cover in a fire fight but he has no fate points to tag the aspect 'crates.' As I understand it, you can't use an aspect unless you have fate points. Seems very counter intuitive.
First, my version of the official reasoning - you're simulating a scene in constant motion. He rolled behind cover in one exchange and kept rolling (or his opponent moves to negate it) by default (unless there's another fate point spent). It's a system that, in my opinion, actually works better if you leave combat abstract and don't map it. Finally, don't forget the free tag on maneuvers.
For an alternative, you might look at Strands of Fate. It uses a sticky aspect concept which allows free tags of an aspect across multiple exchanges. Sticky aspects are more difficult to create but it makes sense to me.
3) Complicated magic system - anytime the wizard wanted to do something, it took a while. And I have to admit, I often got fuzzy on how if you succeed on a evocation, do you add in the power to the success of the casting? I just felt like it could have been made simpler.
This, in my opinion, is caused by the overly verbose writing style used. I rewrote the evocation rules to fit on a one page pdf. Thaumaturgy takes a second page.
4) Looking up powers - it was tough looking up stats for villains. there was sort of a little cheat box at the bottom, but I had to go to the other book to look up what powers they used. I ended up making my own monster sheets with power descriptions included.
I suspect this will go away with familiarity but it is worth a short sentence / reminder on your villain's sheet.
Edit: There's also a two sheet powers reference downloadable from Evil Hat (http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/downloads/). There's also a short 'reminder' version of the spellcasting rules.
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I admit the magic rules are a bit complicated. I'm still trying to get my heard around them before running my first live gaming session in dfrpg.
@umbralux: Could you post your one sheet of the magic rules? That might be helpful.
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I've had some push back from my players as well. They are all hardened GURPs players (2 have played GURPS for around 20 years!) and have had a LOT of trouble getting their minds wrapped around this system. But, as I am the one that always runs the games for this group over the last ten years, I just told them that if they didn't want to play FATE that one of them could run a game. So, we're still playing FATE. LOL
Maneuvers, maneuvers, maneuvers. I had to ram this through my players heads. I did it by having some NPC thugs beat the crap out of them in a fight. When I had 5 vanilla Ukrainian mobsters drop the hammer on 5 Submerged level wizards; they started paying attention. Well, at first they got all upset and claimed the system was broken since that could happen. Then I simply pointed out that perhaps they would have more luck if they actually USED the system. We then sat down and I took them through how the mobsters did what they did and, finally, Maneuvers clicked.
Now, they whore maneuvers like they use to whore combat modifiers from the hundreds of GURPS tables.
Once they get Maneuvers down, you can move on, like I am tonight, onto declarations and assessments.
The other trick I used was when my main, still unknown, behind the scenes, villains struck at the players through proxies. I had the party ambushed while they were separated. In my case, in pairs. I then handed the other players NPC sheets and let them play the bad guys. In my set up, one pair of players was jumped by giant spider constructs, another by some cheap ghouls, and the final pair by some zombies.
I got really good feedback from my players on this and they all said that they came away from that session with a much better understanding of the rules and system. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that they all have wizards as characters and that playing the thug-monsters here gave them something much more simple to try out without getting lost in throwing spells around.
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1) Hard to give the PCs fate points - They use them quickly and it's hard to give them some kind of inconvenience every scene so they can get them back.
Players who want lots of fate points need to use their Aspects to get themselves into trouble. Responsibility for Compels is as much in a player's hands as it is in yours.
You also have the option of calling for a Refresh when significant time passes. It's totally okay to say, "Okay, guys. Since like two days pass, you can all go up to your Refresh rating in fate points if you're below that."
2) Having to use fate points to gain bonuses - So one of my characters wants to take cover in a fire fight but he has no fate points to tag the aspect 'crates.' As I understand it, you can't use an aspect unless you have fate points. Seems very counter intuitive.
There's nothing stopping you from adjusting difficulties without using Aspects. There's a little bit of guidance about doing so on pages 311 and 312. You are well within your rights to say, "So you're taking a full defense action and ducking behind those crates. Okay, in addition to the normal +2 for full defense, take another +1 because of cover."
3) Complicated magic system - anytime the wizard wanted to do something, it took a while. And I have to admit, I often got fuzzy on how if you succeed on a evocation, do you add in the power to the success of the casting? I just felt like it could have been made simpler.
You're allowing verbosity to obscure the magic system. It's actually not terribly complicated. Look at the rules summary on those yellow pages in the back of the book, next to the character sheets. It summarizes the basics in a few short lines.
4) Looking up powers - it was tough looking up stats for villains. there was sort of a little cheat box at the bottom, but I had to go to the other book to look up what powers they used. I ended up making my own monster sheets with power descriptions included.
As with any system, you're going to learn the stuff that you use. It's like Feats in D&D or Disciplines in Vampire. Keep little note cards with what stuff does until you remember it.
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As pointed out, Fate points can be accumulated fairly easily. For some good examples, I've been following the "Forced to Fight" PBP game here on the boards, kind of lurking. They are frequently compelling aspects for points and then turning right around and using them again.
Part of the drawback to playing a fully loaded wizard is that FPs are going to be a little low, compared to other lower refresh characters.
As for the spellcasting rules, I've found that it is best to encourage people to not play spellcasters the first time around unless they want to sit down and learn the magic system. It is pretty flexible and can be daunting if you are unfamiliar with it. That said, once you do get it, it should flow pretty well.
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@umbralux: Could you post your one sheet of the magic rules? That might be helpful.
It's a condensed version of copyrighted material, so I can't legally distribute it. I'll give it to Evil Hat if they'd like to publish it, but that's up to them. It's something anyone with the book and some time could duplicate though - I did it to understand the system better.
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There's a lot of great advice here! I would really speak with your players about self-compels. Remind them that as a GM you are paying attention to all of their characters in addition to many other things. The best way for them to get fate points is to take the initiative themselves.
As for the magic system one of the ways to simplify is to really encourage the use of rote spells. Help your wizard(s) lock those down and then in the heat of things it is much easier. You just roll discipline to hit, that's it. Creating rotes should also help you (and your wizards) to understand the system better.
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It's a condensed version of copyrighted material, so I can't legally distribute it. I'll give it to Evil Hat if they'd like to publish it, but that's up to them. It's something anyone with the book and some time could duplicate though - I did it to understand the system better.
They have a Fan-Created Resources page:
http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/downloads/
Emailing it to Fred Hicks would mean it could go up on that page.
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I have 2 player that feel the system is annoying. One of them is a wizard, and consistently says that mage has a better magic system. He also does not like some of the basic rules of fate like the lack of mechanical differences, which related to his preference to the mage system. This is largely due to the limits that are placed on the magic system.
My second player feels that his character is way weaker than the other players. He is playing a physical character in a group of wizards. I have not figured out how to prove that having all 4 physical stats is just as good as evoc.
However I have noticed that Fate seems crunch light, but in reality is just as complex as most of the other systems I have. It is very important to make sure everyone understands the system. The other thing you can do is lay fate over another system. My player that prefers mage did a fate overlay on mage and it works wonderfully. I also recommend Strands of Fate. It has some great ideas, and is designed to be a swiss army knife of options.
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My second player feels that his character is way weaker than the other players. He is playing a physical character in a group of wizards. I have not figured out how to prove that having all 4 physical stats is just as good as evoc.
If he's not a supernatural strength character and doesn't have a Sword of the Cross or similar, what does he expect?
Plus, grapples if done properly are pretty nasty. Some wizards simply won't be able to get out of a good grapple unless they spend a buttload of fate points.
There are pros and cons to everything. Wizards dish damage but can only do it so many times. A thug with a gun can lay down fire until his bullets run out... which may take a while.
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A character with physical powers is vastly more durable and has far better initiative than a wizard.
So if you want to make him feel useful, you can put in some enemies that can take out wizards before they even get to act. A seven-shift evoker with Inhuman Speed, for example. The physical guy can survive a big evocation or beat the enemy's initiative, while the wizards will have to use fate points and consequences just to have a chance.
Note: this is pretty terrible from the wizards' point of view. So don't do it very often.
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1) As others have pointed out, your players can self-compel for Fate points (p103 YS) and as a GM you can allow a refresh to occur midsession (p21, p317 YS).
2) There is a difference between tagging and invoking an Aspect. Tagging (p106 YS) is free. So your player could "Dive for cover" and tag that Aspect.
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I've just run the "Neutral Grounds" casefile for my group because our usual GM couldn't make it for a couple of weeks. When I say run I'm actually still running it, I've managed to split it over 2 sessions.
The FATE system is so different from what we are used to that I'm not surprised that some players could have trouble conceptualising how it works. The thing that makes it really stand out for me are the Declarations, they take a lot of the pressure off the GM. The system is so much more collaborative than we were used to. In the first couple of scenes I had to really encourage the players by asking them what was going on, by the end of the night they were telling me. It's a great feeling.
The point here is that unlike traditional RPG you don't have a GM setting a bunch of problems that the players have to overcome using the resources available to their characters. In FATE the GM and the players are working together to tell a story that everyone will enjoy. Once the group grasps that then it doesn't matter that a physical character is outclassed by the wizards in combat, as long as everyone enjoys the story. The character's aspects should drive the story, not just help them beat up the bad guys.
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I'm a LONG-term (since Red Box) die-hard D&D fan, to the point that I had pretty much gotten disgusted with playing any other game, much less any other system. And, I admit, my first reaction to a little taste of the FATE/DFRPG system was... not positive. The more I look at it, though, the more I realize that it works exactly as well as the GM and group want it to work. Let's face it: no system is perfect. And if the GM and players think otherwise and expect the system to work perfectly without any personalization, it's pretty much doomed to failure for that group. But the difference here is that FATE/DFRPG works exactly as well as the whole team DECIDES it should work, and with minimal user-end interference, just a little intelligent application.
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I think the original posts #3 and #4 will be resolved by more experience. I know that's not the desired answer and trust me, I've tried running new systems for players that are dead set on their favorite system. It can be a bit messy. The best bet to making it work out is to look at what the new system is good at making simple and possibly what the old one did well that your players liked.
Mostly I think what the DFRPG and Fate bring to the table that's different from a lot of the major systems is the ability to play characters with very different strengths, such as supernatural critters, pure mortals and spellcasters without things breaking down. That's the character creation side. On the story side it's strength is that it lets everyone get more involved in telling the story than a lot of systems do. You aren't just "a cleric" to plug into some standard group equation. What you are and even who you are is going to have a lot of effect on the eventual story that gets told. The main way this happens is if people are engaged in the game though. Probably the best way to do this is to get them involved in making declarations and tagging aspects. I've run other systems which allow mechanical rewards for roleplay and how well people like them seems to have a lot to do with how willing they are to get involved. If you just hide behind a number and hope it will carry you along (the way a fighter with high strength can get by early on in D&D for example), you're just not going to be that impressed with the game.
The best way to let the players get involved with this side of things (and yourself as well) is to simplify the equation a bit. Do the rote thing as recommended for the spellcaster. Someone else mentioned a different scenario where their physical guys don't see the reward the spellcasters do... That's a different problem. Basically the main different types of characters you deal with are supernaturals, pure mortals, and spellcasters. Any of them can focus more or less on combat or other areas of the game but when the focus is the same and the strengths are of different types they basically have differing abilities in various situations. This tends to be true regardless of system so this isn't a new thing. Casters blow big holes in problems and have versatility but aren't the best at endurance matches (just think about how beat up Harry usually ends up by the end of a novel and he's not throwing spells at the drop of a hat either). The supernaturals have power that's always on. It's not as versatile but it takes more effort to shut down. The pure mortals (these map most closely to the "skills based" characters in other systems) are going to have easier access to fate points or stunts than their counterparts. They're the hardest to deal with when directly compared to characters with more powers. Point for point, stunts aren't designed to equal powers. Like in other systems though you have a lot of options with this character type. If the character is totally focused you might have to look at a specially designed scenario to highlight the advantages of their choices. If they're 2nd best at several things, you can just arrange to let them shine a little in multiple areas.
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1) Hard to give the PCs fate points - They use them quickly and it's hard to give them some kind of inconvenience every scene so they can get them back.
Well, as others have said, they don't get Fate points every scene. Also, Fate is not earned through inconveniences. It's earned when you allow your characters Aspect to generate interesting complications and unexpected plot twists. So, it they want Fate they need to start thinking of cool ways to interact with the story. That's not solely the GM's job.
2) Having to use fate points to gain bonuses - So one of my characters wants to take cover in a fire fight but he has no fate points to tag the aspect 'crates.' As I understand it, you can't use an aspect unless you have fate points. Seems very counter intuitive.
You can hide behind the crates, but if you want to add +2 to your roll you generally have to do something, i.e. a maneuver to generate a free Tag or spend a Fate point to invoke the aspect. I'm not sure why it bothers some folks that they can't get everything for free in life, but it does. Sure the crates are there, but it's all abstracted. Are they effective cover? How about if he moves a few feet (still within the same zone mind you)? Are the creates effective now? Who knows? It's all make believe in our heads. Spend a Fate point and you get to say that the crates are making you harder to hit.
3) Complicated magic system - anytime the wizard wanted to do something, it took a while. And I have to admit, I often got fuzzy on how if you succeed on a evocation, do you add in the power to the success of the casting? I just felt like it could have been made simpler.
Evocations aren't really that tough once you get used to them. For attacks, roll Discipline and add Power, just like a weapon adds its weapon rating.
I'm really not trying to start a flame or anything, I just want to try and save this system for my group. they want to ditch it and go with something like primetime adventures or wordplaly. I feel kinda bad thinking I dropped almost $100 bucks for a game I'm gonna play 3 times. Ugh.
PtA is tons of fun, but that's really a very different game. Hopefully, they'll start enjoying it once the Compels are working properly and Fate is flowing.
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IN our Story based DFRPG, we don't use the system in the books, but I still find them to be a great resource for information on the world. Especially since the PDF is soooo easily searchable.
There are some good points being made here, especially the one that players have to stop simply being reactive. They have to give that extra effort as well, work their own compels, and not be afraid of mistakes.
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I have never played the DFRPG, but I have a question: is it still the
DM's GM's job to kill everybody? :)
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On the story side it's strength is that it lets everyone get more involved in telling the story than a lot of systems do. You aren't just "a cleric" to plug into some standard group equation. What you are and even who you are is going to have a lot of effect on the eventual story that gets told. The main way this happens is if people are engaged in the game though.
To add on to this the best way (IMO) to get people engaged is to really involve them in the city and character creation. Get them to help you create something that they have a connection to from the beginning and suddenly they understand that they have as much of a right as you do to shape this place and this story.
I have never played the DFRPG, but I have a question: is it still the DM's GM's job to kill everybody? :)
No... No on so many levels. What GM's/games have you been involved with??? (several more exasperated noises) :)
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In this game system, it is no longer the GM's job to kill everyone. Now they force the players to torture their own characters for spotlight time so that the GM's hands are clean. If you are into
masochism story ::), this game system is definitely for you. 8)
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In this game system, it is no longer the GM's job to kill everyone. Now they force the players to torture their own characters for spotlight time so that the GM's hands are clean. If you are into masochism story ::), this game system is definitely for you. 8)
I'm all about the masochism story ::)
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Joking aside, you want to pick aspects that you'd enjoy having compelled. If you like playing a guy who runs his mouth, then get an aspect or two that reflects that. You then get rewarded for that sort of thing. Seems like a good way to go to me.
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Yup it's nice to have easily compelled aspects.
That said, in the game I just started playing, my sponsored magic compel has been the most fun and most game-altering so far.
I got a compel (which I accepted) to burn a mansion to the ground my group just had a battle in and which may or may not contain crucial information.
Good times :)
The fact that my group will probably be super pissed at me now or mistrust me will get me a lot of compels to my sponsored magic item of power... I think.
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The biggest point I think that has been made here is that if your players want something (fate points, cover, story, etc.) it's as much their job to get it as is your job to give it to them.
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All very good points. And after thinking about it, I think the DFRPG is just too much work for my players. And in a way, I can see it. Fate points fuel everything and to get more fuel, they have to be clever storytellers ALL THE TIME. So I see them looking over their sheets trying to figure out what to do in a given scene, how to move the story forward, but also incorporate their aspects. This can get tiresome very quickly. If aspects were more of a guide line and flavor than an actual mechanic, I think they would have used it when they thought it appropriate.
It's not the players really. We've played prime time adventures and Dogs in the Vineyard and these guys shine. They're really good at character development. But when a game makes you do it to survive a combat, it seems... annoying.
Am I making sense?
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Sorta. I suspect it's a personal-preference thing. I see aspects as being parallel to the essence of a D&D character - what he's going to want to do, WHY he'll want to do it, what will make/let him do it, what WON'T... and how all of that can adapt to changing situations. EVERYTHING can be part of any RPG if you play it smart... and it should be.
But, again, that's my personal preference. I've always felt compelled (ha, with the funny) in character creation to figure out just what makes my character tick and why, and how all that's going to fit into what role in the party.
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Yeah, I play the persona, not the rules. I figure, as long as I know who the character is... the rest should be gravy. If you feel tied to a sheet and need to keep referencing it for fear that you will miss something, that will drain the life out of any campaign. *cough* aftermath*cough*
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Yeah, I play the persona, not the rules. I figure, as long as I know who the character is... the rest should be gravy. If you feel tied to a sheet and need to keep referencing it for fear that you will miss something, that will drain the life out of any campaign. *cough* aftermath*cough*
Oh, I also like having the numbers. They're a great starting point for play. But that's what they are - a starting point. Gotta fill in the rest with actual play.
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Ever play the aftermath system, Shecky? You needed a sliderule and a protractor!
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Ever play the aftermath system, Shecky? You needed a sliderule and a protractor!
Ugh. That's one thing I liked about D&D 3.5; a lot of the math was taken care of up-front.
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All very good points. And after thinking about it, I think the DFRPG is just too much work for my players. And in a way, I can see it. Fate points fuel everything and to get more fuel, they have to be clever storytellers ALL THE TIME. So I see them looking over their sheets trying to figure out what to do in a given scene, how to move the story forward, but also incorporate their aspects. This can get tiresome very quickly. If aspects were more of a guide line and flavor than an actual mechanic, I think they would have used it when they thought it appropriate.
It's not the players really. We've played prime time adventures and Dogs in the Vineyard and these guys shine. They're really good at character development. But when a game makes you do it to survive a combat, it seems... annoying.
Am I making sense?
Have you thought about just making the combats easier? The system can still be a lot of fun even if the players aren't throwing Fate points around all the time.
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Have you thought about just making the combats easier? The system can still be a lot of fun even if the players aren't throwing Fate points around all the time.
I recall reading that Evil Hat intentionally made a design decision to have combat be more gritty in DFRPG than in other FATE offerings, to reflect the setting, and one of these methods was to reduce the stress boxes. Adding a few stress boxes back to everyone's character can help close the gap and make it less brutal, though perhaps adding to a potential slogfest if each combat is treated as a war of stress box attrition.
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I recall reading that Evil Hat intentionally made a design decision to have combat be more gritty in DFRPG than in other FATE offerings, to reflect the setting, and one of these methods was to reduce the stress boxes. Adding a few stress boxes back to everyone's character can help close the gap and make it less brutal, though perhaps adding to a potential slogfest if each combat is treated as a war of stress box attrition.
It helps if the PCs have NPC buddies helping them as backup.
My group runs an average of 6 pcs at a time. Every week one or two people don't attend or have to leave early/late due to something.
With 6 players, my group has been surprisingly tough for monsters to kill... and some of the things we've fought so far have been pretty nasty.
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All very good points. And after thinking about it, I think the DFRPG is just too much work for my players. And in a way, I can see it. Fate points fuel everything and to get more fuel, they have to be clever storytellers ALL THE TIME. So I see them looking over their sheets trying to figure out what to do in a given scene, how to move the story forward, but also incorporate their aspects. This can get tiresome very quickly. If aspects were more of a guide line and flavor than an actual mechanic, I think they would have used it when they thought it appropriate.
It's not the players really. We've played prime time adventures and Dogs in the Vineyard and these guys shine. They're really good at character development. But when a game makes you do it to survive a combat, it seems... annoying.
Am I making sense?
Maybe you can tweek it a little to suite your group. What it sounds like is that your character can and are willing to roleplay, but the self compelling gets in the way. Maybe you could just have them roleplay with the aspects as a guide, and you hand out fate points when you feel it appropriate. that would IMO reduce the amount of characters pouring over their character sheets and put more of the weight on your shoulders. But hey, it might also come down to this isn't the system for you. I am excited about because my group is kind of the opposite. They are used to be dnd players, and this is their first introduction to an indie game. So the aspect system for them will hopefully help them take more narrative control. So good luck, and I hope everything goes well. And even if you decide not to run dfrpg, isn't a great reference guide anyway?
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Maybe you can tweek it a little to suite your group. What it sounds like is that your character can and are willing to roleplay, but the self compelling gets in the way. Maybe you could just have them roleplay with the aspects as a guide, and you hand out fate points when you feel it appropriate. that would IMO reduce the amount of characters pouring over their character sheets and put more of the weight on your shoulders. But hey, it might also come down to this isn't the system for you. I am excited about because my group is kind of the opposite. They are used to be dnd players, and this is their first introduction to an indie game. So the aspect system for them will hopefully help them take more narrative control. So good luck, and I hope everything goes well. And even if you decide not to run dfrpg, isn't a great reference guide anyway?
Yeah... I think that's a good idea. I think that would work if I could get them to play the system again.
I gotta say, the aspects during character creation is one of the best things I've seen in a role-playing game in years. I think almost every game can use them. I even did a Star Wars Saga Edition that had aspects and it worked beautifully. Giving out force points and the like for good RP and putting in complications. I think the beef with Dresden is that you really need those fate points and without them, characters quickly get handled. Socially, mentally physically... it's not just combat.
I'm honestly looking for something to convince my players to give it a try again. I think with a bit of massaging it could be really cool and they would love it. But I don't have any REALLY good reasons. But maybe enough GOOD reasons might get them interested. I don't know. But thanks for all the input here. It's helping me put some arguments in order!
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Ever play the aftermath system, Shecky? You needed a sliderule and a protractor!
One mustn't downplay the importance of the Acid Splash Special Effects Table...
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*ROFLMAO*
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I think the beef with Dresden is that you really need those fate points and without them, characters quickly get handled. Socially, mentally physically... it's not just combat.
The experience my group had is that your character's Aspects are mechanically an important part of the character creation. If your character leverages his Aspects to do stuff, then you need double-edged Aspects, ones that are both easy to compel but also easy to invoke. If your character is the quiet workman that doesn't use his Fate points much, then it isn't so much of a problem.
There's a guy in my group I'd call the Cleaner. He clears the mooks mob out, he uses his Inhuman Strength and Claws to clean house, Inhuman Speed and Superb Athletics to avoid attacks. He doesn't find it necessary to invoke his Aspects more than a few times a session.
There is another guy I'd call the Boss killer. He sits there, with easily Compelled Aspects, taking Compel after Compel until the boss shows his face and he cashes in all his fate points, tags, whatever bonuses he can lay his hands on and cuts loose.
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Why doesn't anybody think of Concessions? You want to survive in the Dresden Files, you don't do it by getting compelled a lot, you do it by making Concessions. That alone will reduce the stress aspect juggling tenfold.
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Why doesn't anybody think of Concessions? You want to survive in the Dresden Files, you don't do it by getting compelled a lot, you do it by making Concessions. That alone will reduce the stress aspect juggling tenfold.
And if you Concede, you get Fate points as well ("cashing out", YS206) based on the Consequenses you have taken.
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I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but I find it helps to explain to new players that the Dresden Files (and the FATE system in general) is better viewed as a game where you craft a narrative, rather than overcoming challenges.
What I mean by this is that your skills aren't there to necessarily determine how competent your character is, but how much a given story is going to be focused on your character doing those things effectively. It's a subtle change of perspective, but a useful one, I think. So instead of a player feeling that they've "lost" if their character loses a fight, they should look at it that this story is about how your character deals with a superior opponent and eventually overcomes him.
The same holds true for Aspects, whether they be on characters or scenes. This isn't a game about stacking modifiers to get the best bonus. It's a game about the important parts of your character's story. If it's important to the story that your character gets the drop on a bad guy because he works best in dark shadows, then you spend Fate Points to have the focus of the story shift to that. If it's important to the story that your character has to struggle to press on and save the day even though he's bleeding from a wound, then the GM gives you Fate Points for the disadvantage of not being able to climb that fence, or an enemy tracking you by the trail of blood.
The story shouldn't be about whether or not the PCs win. It should be about how they choose to overcome their challenges (both personal and external), and what they have to sacrifice in order to do the right thing.
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Wordmaker: Thing is, not everyone wants to roleplay that way. It sounds like the OPs group don't want to. But the Dresden Files system *also* works well with a bit more traditional mindset, you just don't have as many Fate points to throw around if you do.
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Which, for now, is exactly how my group is working. The game is much more GM driven with me (the GM) handing out most of the compels and Fate Points. Despite all of my efforts, writings and conversations in building up the game and since, most of my players still see getting a Compel on one of their Aspects as something that means they "lose". That I (as the GM) tricked or trapped them and they should do better next time. My players are long time GURPS players and see Compels to the Aspects like they did Disadvantages on their old GURPS characters. Something they had to take to get more points and then to mitigate as much as possible.
I'm working on this. *sigh*
In the mean time, it means that the Fate Point flow has been slow.
What has worked and, I hope, will continue them on the path to great involvement and understanding of the system, has been leaning heavily on maneuvers. They have been getting their bonuses and such from those over Fate Points. It has also worked well in getting them to work more as a team in combat as opposed to everyone wading in and swinging away as individuals. In fact, I consider this one of the real strengths of the FATE system. That it can really reward actions in combat beyond "Swing and Hit" and allows for non-combat focused characters to have a positive contribution to combat.
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That I (as the GM) tricked or trapped them and they should do better next time. My players are long time GURPS players and see Compels to the Aspects like they did Disadvantages on their old GURPS characters. Something they had to take to get more points and then to mitigate as much as possible.
I'm working on this. *sigh*
Try this solution: Make compels cost nothing to refuse. Make sure you don't offer any soft compels. Still give out Fate points if the character does something self-compelling. Then, just make things challenging enough and sooner or later, one of them is going to try accepting compels just to see what happens. When that turns out to make things more fun, others will follow suit. Then once they dig the mechanic, you can add back in the Fate point cost to refuse a compel.
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Kommisar, it sounds like you really want your players to buy into the spirit of how the FATE system works. I know myself how frustrating it can be when your players aren't on the same page as you, and even how bad it is when they're not on the same page as each other!
I'd take Luminos' suggestion and remove the cost for refusing a compel, at least for now. Maybe tell them you'll just let them know when opportunities come up for them to gain a Fate Point through a compel if they'd like to take one.
By the same token, maybe you should let them know when you're compelling your NPCs? Not while they're "off-camera" obviously, but make a point of showing how the NPCs helping them and opposing them are building up a reserve of Fate Points by allowing the story to disadvantage them. If they see a villain they want to take down stocking up on Fate Points they know are going to be used against them later, they should start to want to find more ways to get their own.
Unfortunately, unless your players learn that this system is not about beating the GM's bad guys, your group really won't get to fully appreciate the game. But like zenten said, not everyone wants to play like that. I've learned the hard way that you can't force your players to play how they don't want to, especially once the game has started. These days I make sure, before any game I run starts, that everyone knows what to expect and that everyone wants to play it the same way.
As for the games where there was a clash between what different people at the table wanted, well, those games didn't last.
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Seriously, have a sit-down with your group and explain just what you see in the FATE system... and then ask them how they could HELP you implement it and make it even cooler.
... yes, the GM has to be a master manipulator.
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Seriously, have a sit-down with your group and explain just what you see in the FATE system... and then ask them how they could HELP you implement it and make it even cooler.
... yes, the GM has to be a master manipulator.
This sounds like better advice. I'd go with this.
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It can also help to use examples from TV or movies to illustrate the narrative nature of the FATE system. Like when Malcolm Reynolds was immune to the Operative's nerve strike because he "had that nerve cluster moved" that was spending a Fate point. When Indiana Jones has to run back into the booby trap infested temple because of his Aspect "My Hat!" that was a Compel and it got Indy's player a Fate point, but it was FUN for the player.
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This sounds like better advice. I'd go with this.
That's not advice. It's just the most workable approach to ANY gaming group - whatever you do, do it together. That way, when you slaughter the whole group, they'll be less angry at you. :D
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Thanks guys. I'm doing all of that and then some. I'm old-hat at this. Plus, I've known my players for about 15 years now (wow... I feel old all of a sudden) and am married to one of them. So, I know how they think and how to gently manipulate them. My maneuver push is directly aimed at 3 of my players specifically. Done many soft compels as well; they still think it's a trap!
But, as said, you can't force a group to play a way they do not want to. And, unfortunately, one of my players will never get on board. She is stubborn and set in her ways and wants her GURPS back. So, I'm trying to meet them half way and hopefully develop something we all can enjoy. But, at the end of the day, they're going to play. LOL I told them all, even before the game came out that I was really wanting to run this system and, if they did not like that, one of them was more than welcome to run a game themselves using whatever system they wanted. In the last decade, only one of them has ever ran a game for the group; and that lasted 3 sessions before he got frustrated and quit.
So, it's a work in progress.
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I have an idea that may work for your group, Kommisar. Give them positive Compels on their Aspects, not just soft Compels but go the other way and make them positive, their actions are still going to be constrained but in the direction that they are most likely to take anyway. Think of them as advantageous Disadvantages. Make it clear that such a Compel means that they actually auto-fail at losing.
Alternatively explain to them that accepting Compels are like getting limit breaks. If they don't take the damage (or "lose"), they don't get limit breaks. This approach may not work, I know some guys actually try to play FF games without relying/using a single limit break attack.
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Thanks guys. I'm doing all of that and then some. I'm old-hat at this. Plus, I've known my players for about 15 years now (wow... I feel old all of a sudden) and am married to one of them. So, I know how they think and how to gently manipulate them. My maneuver push is directly aimed at 3 of my players specifically. Done many soft compels as well; they still think it's a trap!
But, as said, you can't force a group to play a way they do not want to. And, unfortunately, one of my players will never get on board. She is stubborn and set in her ways and wants her GURPS back. So, I'm trying to meet them half way and hopefully develop something we all can enjoy. But, at the end of the day, they're going to play. LOL I told them all, even before the game came out that I was really wanting to run this system and, if they did not like that, one of them was more than welcome to run a game themselves using whatever system they wanted. In the last decade, only one of them has ever ran a game for the group; and that lasted 3 sessions before he got frustrated and quit.
So, it's a work in progress.
Do any of them typically do "dumb"/"suboptimal" stuff in other games? Most players I know have flaws in how they like to play. We have one guy who likes to loot stuff for instance -- in retrospect his character should have something related to looting (we've been finalizing characters this last week). That way the stuff they'd do anyway gets compelled at least a good bit of the time.
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"All very good points. And after thinking about it, I think the DFRPG is just too much work for my players. And in a way, I can see it. Fate points fuel everything and to get more fuel, they have to be clever storytellers ALL THE TIME. So I see them looking over their sheets trying to figure out what to do in a given scene, how to move the story forward, but also incorporate their aspects. This can get tiresome very quickly. If aspects were more of a guide line and flavor than an actual mechanic, I think they would have used it when they thought it appropriate."
On the other hand, I have players used to looking over the rules in ANY system to see how they can get the most advantage; I can see where calling it "aspects" can feel different; but it's the same principle.
"They're really good at character development. But when a game makes you do it to survive a combat, it seems... annoying."
To me that's a very negative conceptualization - and so I'd use a more positive one. In most systems, there are limits on "points" and "skills" and such. Potentially, in this game, the actual limit is the PC's imagination in terms of using/declaring/creating/suggesting/self-compelling.
Along those lines, look for what they do utilize for their characters and find ways to reward them for it. Bribery works really well - especially when it's not framed as bribery.
Dian
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I was thinking about this.
unfortunately, one of my players will never get on board. She is stubborn and set in her ways and wants her GURPS back. So, I'm trying to meet them half way and hopefully develop something we all can enjoy.
What is it that she likes about GURPS? Specifically, I'd encourage you to find something she likes to do or to be able to do and find a way to make it better/easier/more effective in FATE - again, bribery, but not framed that way.
Dian
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LOL
What she likes about GURPS is that it is GURPS. That it is the game from the book that she has owned for 20 to 30 years. It is purely emotional and not something one can rationally negotiate on.
To quote Stewie, "I DON'T LIKE CHANGE!"
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I think that one problem that might plague many gamers is that the Dresden Files RPG is so huge. There is a lot of material packed in there and it's all designed to work together in a synergy, so you really need to see how all of the parts work together in order to really understand the game.
While the FATE system may be simple in concept, my players don't like to learn new rules and several of them feel like they just don't "get" this whole aspect thing, along with the vocabulary of "tagging" and so on. It's like speaking a different language and they aren't that interested in picking it up.
So, I can certainly sympathise with you when you say your players don't like the system. Mine don't know enough about the system to know if they like it or not, so they aren't really hooked yet.
This has gotten me wondering if it wouldn't be easier for me to scrap the existing rules and try to piece together something Dresden-like using d20 or Unisystem or some other rules that they would play, then after I get them hooked try to slip in FATE again on them sometime later.
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I agree with the ideas of modeling the system through bad guys. What did it for my players was simply me telling them rules-wise what the bad-guys were doing.
Concessions especially. Set it up so that the bad guys have multiple objectives, and then have them concede out to only accomplish some of the objectives.
"It sounds like you all really want to save the princess, but Bowser is also concerned about the hammer. He's gonna concede and just take the hammer, leaving you the girl"
So the players learn that conceding isn't just failing.