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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Amseriah on January 18, 2011, 11:52:44 PM

Title: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Amseriah on January 18, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
The GM who is running the game that I am currently in discovered a myth that there were originally 4 nails created for hanging Christ on the cross, but a young gypsy girl found out the reason for their creation and so she stole one of them to try to save him from his fate.  We are running with that premise, and my character is about to undergo a quest to have a 4th Sword of the Cross forged (the nail has already been found).  My question is, what should the name of this new sword be.  The 3 existing swords are taken from Corinthians, but also are the 3 heavenly virtues that together with the 4 Cardinal Virtues make the 7.  I am of course leaning towards having it named after one of the cardinal virtues:  Justice, Prudence, Temperance, or Fortitude.  Any thoughts or comments? 

Another question that is sort of off topic (and I am the OP...jeeez this is bad!):  Has anyone done anything to bring the system more in line with the characters as written in the novels?  What I mean is ability-wise.  It is stated that Harry doesn't ever lie around Michael or any of the KotC for that matter because they just know when they are being lied to.  Also it is stated that they seem to be able to sense the supernatural, especially evil supernatural beings.  Fix, as the Summer Knight is described as standing in nearly blizzard conditions yet snow seems to actively avoid him, and he doesn't seem to feel the effects of the cold.  Has anyone taken any of these things into account with their own characters?  I can see them being so minor that they aren't even worth a stunt or an Aspect...merely a component of their high concept or mantle. 
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: devonapple on January 18, 2011, 11:59:36 PM
As you describe it, I would go with Prudence, or possibly Temperance.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Tallyrand on January 19, 2011, 12:00:34 AM
Hmm, I'm familiar with another version of that story, basically that the Roman soldiers commissioned a Rom outside the gates of the city (because all of the local blacksmiths knew the purpose and refused to do the work) to make the nails.  The soldiers, having wasted time trying to find a blacksmith were impatient and so when the smith had finished the 3rd nail they grabbed them and left.  The smith, believing than all orders should be fulfilled finished making the 4th nail, set it aside and continued his work.  That night the smith found the nail, still glowing hot sitting outside the flap to his tent, he kicked it away and unsettled packed up his family and moved on to the next town.  After his first night in the town he found again the glowing hot nail sitting outside the flap of his tent and it forever followed him, reminding him of his part in the crucifixion.  That version of the story is from the book Bury Me Standing, and excellent resource if you want to play a modern Rom.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Tallyrand on January 19, 2011, 12:08:00 AM
Another question that is sort of off topic (and I am the OP...jeeez this is bad!):  Has anyone done anything to bring the system more in line with the characters as written in the novels?  What I mean is ability-wise.  It is stated that Harry doesn't ever lie around Michael or any of the KotC for that matter because they just know when they are being lied to.  Also it is stated that they seem to be able to sense the supernatural, especially evil supernatural beings.  Fix, as the Summer Knight is described as standing in nearly blizzard conditions yet snow seems to actively avoid him, and he doesn't seem to feel the effects of the cold.  Has anyone taken any of these things into account with their own characters?  I can see them being so minor that they aren't even worth a stunt or an Aspect...merely a component of their high concept or mantle. 

Honestly I think that they are a component of their high concept for the most part.  Fix is the Summer Knight, so when the GM says, ok this scene has an aspect "Supernatural Blizzard" Fix's play then throws a fate chip to compel "Summer Knight" and says he ignores it.  Otherwise the GM in the background may have said "Ok, so Winter is going to make a blizzard to mess with the characters.....but I'm going to give her a fate chip and say it doesn't have any effect on the Summer Knight compelling her Winter aspect."

Similarly the Knight's of the Cross could use their "The Lord is My Shepard" or similar aspect to say that the big man has their back, gives them a feeling when there's supernatural badness or even simple deception around them.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: arete on January 19, 2011, 12:20:33 AM
Your gm sounds awesome.  I think high concepts shouldcome with little things that make them look cooler, and fluff like that can be the exact way to do that.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: ScottMcG on January 19, 2011, 12:29:16 AM
I like that approach, although this sounds more like Invoking for Effect rather than a Compel.

Honestly I think that they are a component of their high concept for the most part.  Fix is the Summer Knight, so when the GM says, ok this scene has an aspect "Supernatural Blizzard" Fix's play then throws a fate chip to compel "Summer Knight" and says he ignores it.  Otherwise the GM in the background may have said "Ok, so Winter is going to make a blizzard to mess with the characters.....but I'm going to give her a fate chip and say it doesn't have any effect on the Summer Knight compelling her Winter aspect."

Similarly the Knight's of the Cross could use their "The Lord is My Shepard" or similar aspect to say that the big man has their back, gives them a feeling when there's supernatural badness or even simple deception around them.

Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Tallyrand on January 19, 2011, 12:43:30 AM
I like that approach, although this sounds more like Invoking for Effect rather than a Compel.


Yeah, I realized the mistake right after I posted and then decided I was too lazy to go in and fix it.

Also as a suggestion for the sword name how about something like Paxius (if anyone actually knows latin please correct me if I'm using it incorrectly) but pax is Latin for Peace, it fits well with the Faith, Hope and Love swords without raising the question where are all of the other virtues now?
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Captain Indigo on January 19, 2011, 01:40:01 AM
In the game I'm in we've a PC that is a 4th KotC. Her blade is Redemptiaccius, the blade of redemption. The name is kinda awkward, but my GM said the latin for redemption is basically "redemption." *  Sounds like an awesome story you've got ahead of you.

*He said it's redemptio or some such. Forget exactly now, but he's a 4th year latin student so I took him at his word.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Tallyrand on January 19, 2011, 01:50:36 AM
Ok, a quick search tells me that Redemptio is latin for Redemption, but it is specifically for "to buy back" so basically you have the sword of the equitable return policy.  Salvatio is the more appropriately religious word for the idea of redemption.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Arcteryx on January 19, 2011, 04:06:20 AM
Nice thread, great ideas. Thumbs up to all involved :)
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: toturi on January 19, 2011, 04:10:14 AM
If we are going pseudo-Latin, maybe "Xavius" could work.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Sh33p on January 19, 2011, 07:51:00 AM
Justice.

Nothing says righteous asswhooping like having God go through you to say the words, "YOU HAVE BEEN JUDGED! AND FOUND! WANTING!" ;D
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Amseriah on January 19, 2011, 01:49:06 PM
I think, based on this character's story, that Justice works the best.  Thanks for all the help!  Since the Latin for Justice is Justitia, I will go ahead and use the name Justiacchius.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on January 19, 2011, 06:53:55 PM
That sounds like a plan to me, but as a related note; the first three Swords are Faith, Hope and Love. All of which are positive virtues. Justice while positive can also have some more negative connotations as in "Justice is Blind", "Justice is Cruel" etc that would serve as excellent compels. And Maybe since the 4th Nail is the only one that was NOT washed in the blood of Jesus then it might have a different and darker "tone" to it. Like the first three had their purposes washed away by the blood but the 4th had its purposed deferred and is full of a potential that has never put to use. It would also make for an excellent storyline where Very Bad Guys (Denarians maybe?) are after the 4th Nail or even the Sword so they can corrupt it to their own purposes. As the Nail's true purpose was never cleansed away that dark potential could make for a very powerful artifact, perhaps even a Sword befitting a Knight of Hell...
dum dum DUM!!
...just a thought...8)
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Amseriah on January 20, 2011, 03:00:42 AM
That is a very interesting thought.  Something that I will have to bring up to my GM.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on January 20, 2011, 03:12:54 PM
I am totally steal...er BORROWing it for my Campaign...8)
At some point anyway...
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: sjksprocket on January 20, 2011, 03:53:09 PM
I think I might have to burrow this idea as well. But I was thinking for my campaign that the nail/sword combo would work like the spear of Longinus (if I'm spelling it right). Just less powerful, not being in contact with the blood.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: riplikash on January 20, 2011, 04:13:15 PM
Just another thought on the concept of the nails.

The idea of 3 nails (one in each hand, one through both feet) is primarily the result of early artists depicting it that way and not because we actually have any reason to believe there were 3 nails.

Some scholars believe there were 4 (one for each foot) or and many even believe it there were 6 (a nail through each hand, and another through the wrist to keep the flesh from tearing, and one through each foot), which was another known method.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Tsunami on January 20, 2011, 04:15:08 PM
That sounds like a plan to me, but as a related note; the first three Swords are Faith, Hope and Love. All of which are positive virtues. Justice while positive can also have some more negative connotations as in "Justice is Blind",[...]

Just a little nitpick here.

"Justice is Blind" is generally considered to be a positive aspect of Justice.
The Blindfold of Justitia (roman goddess of justice) represents impartiality, regardless of social status, money, or any other outward attributes.


and another thought:

As a virtue, Justice is very different from vengeance. But it can easily happen that the need for justice makes people seek vengeance instead.
Maybe one of the duties of the wielder is to make sure that people don't fall victim to that temptation.

On the other hand, if you are really looking to make the 4th sword a more ambiguous one, then vengeance fits the bill as well. As the flipside of Justice, tempting the wielder to deal out his own justice (or vengeance), turning him into a vigilante.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on January 20, 2011, 04:20:49 PM
Nit pick away! I think that to some Justice is a "Harder" idea as its harder to truly have impartial justice and harder still to walk that fine line of impartiality than it is to follow the tenets of Faith, Hope and Love which can be very ambiguous. Of course one man's justice may be another man's injustice...8)

I'm really digging on this idea however you want to play with it...six nails would certainly allow for more swords of either stripe and certainly more interesting than the over-used trope of the Spear of Longinus/Destiny. But in my game I'll keep it to 4 so that the fight for the 4th Nail will be more interesting...8)
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on January 21, 2011, 08:21:30 AM
If we're going for legends, Simon R Green did something fun with the "Unholy Grail".

Basic outline of Simon R Green's handling of the Unholy Grail: The Holy Grail is the cup that Jesus used during that last supper, but Judas was there too.  Doesn't that mean he had a cup? Someone asked that question and the Unholy Grail was born.

Originally the Unholy Grail just a cup but as myth, story, and magic built up it became a Symbol (capital S) and now might have something to do with the Last Conflict.  It might even start the Final Battle - who knows? But someone from the Vatican is looking for the best investigator he can find to dig up the Unholy Grail and Angels (both kinds) are looking around for it - can the story's protagonist find it before anyone else does?

Richard
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Tallyrand on January 21, 2011, 12:23:31 PM
I always felt that Judas got a bad rap, I make a point to spin him as a good guy whenever I use him in stories.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Bubba Amon Hotep on January 21, 2011, 02:46:10 PM
Had a person who wanted to be a knight of the cross in a game I was running.  I let them do it based on backstory.  The father used a blade, she trained growing up to wield it.  And is passing it down to her.

Then added my own underlying twist, and the relation to this topic. You see her father was a cultist who used the black.  The cult over the ages had gathered fragments from THE cat-o-nine tails used to give Jesus his lashings.  Since Lucifer had tainted it, by compelling the guards to torture him, the sword forged from the Cat-o-nine tails was also dark.

The player attempted to be a knight of the cross with the dark sword, but little accidents/coincidences would corrupt her efforts.  Later she found out about the sword, brought down the cultists one by one, including her father, and sought out a sympathetic Wizard (Harry) to help destroy the blade.

The real Knights get involved, and through her prior actions, and during a baptism of sorts, the blade is cleansed.  The player enjoyed it, and that is the first rule of the game.  HAVE FUN.

I believe there was an old Indiana Jones adventure based on the 4th nail.  And how it relates to traveling gypsies.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on January 21, 2011, 02:52:25 PM
Its an interesting idea, but I feel that the whole Grail thing is overdone so I prefer to come up with different ideas, thus the 4th nail works for me.
Though come to think of it, if the Nails were sued to make swords why couldn't splinters of the true cross be used? Find some of those and you could have an army of Knights of the Cross crusading across the globe!
I still like having the Sword of the 4th Nail being an object of Evil or at least has the potential for Dark power.

I actually agree on the Judas getting a bad rap to some degree. He was pretty much born with one purpose in mind, to betray Jesus. He repented for his sent and hung himself...but he never had a choice in his role to play did he? That's one of the many reasons why I'm a big fan of the Rock Opera "Jesus Christ Superstar", because it portrays Judas as pretty much a vehicle of Destiny...and Jesus as well. They had to play their parts to ensure he was martyred, it pretty much ensured his word would spread. In the final song at the end Judas comes back at the end and asks him why he didn't wait until modern times when his message could be spread by mass media...but would believe such a thing in this day and age?
Anyway, I'm not going to get into TT here, not any further anyway, but I have a Super-hero Novel that has the origins of it's Heroes "Gifts" based on the Concept that Judas didn't have a choice about what he did.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on January 21, 2011, 02:54:48 PM
Thats very cool Bubba, I like it a lot! Very Epic story idea!

And the Adventure you are thinking of was form the Indiana Jones Comic Books. Once upon a time I actually had issue number one of that very series...long since gone now and I never got any more episodes so I never knew how it turned out.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Arcteryx on January 21, 2011, 06:03:16 PM
As I read this I thought to myself, this thread would actually make for a great adventure outline - with derivative and alternative ideas/directions in sidebars.

Lets face it - if we run or play this game any amount of time, Knights of the Cross (or something similar'ish) are going to pop up, and this is an awesome storyline to take them through.

Good work folks!
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on January 21, 2011, 06:25:45 PM
From the 4th Nail to a Knight of Hell to the Uholy Grail...does have the makings of an Epic Story...8)
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Amseriah on January 22, 2011, 02:44:07 AM
If anyone is interested and have netflix, I watched a documentary by National Geographic about the Gospel of Judas.  There is historical record of it existing and some people believe that they have found it and have translated it.  It says that (paraphrasing of course) Judas was Jesus's most advanced student and that the told him to turn him into the Romans knowing that he would be killed.  The reasoning is that Jesus had to have his human body destroyed so that his divine soul could be released.  Judas knew that he would be considered a traitor but did it anyway because of his love for Jesus.  Here is a link to the National Geographic page:  http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/ (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/)
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Grokken on January 23, 2011, 07:34:59 PM
I like the idea of a piece of the True Cross as well, though my thought was a staff carved from it.  You'd have a LOT of wizards sorcorers and others fighting over that.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Vars on January 24, 2011, 08:21:23 AM
I wouldn't go with Vengeance or with Justice or any other connotation of judgement. It pretty clearly states that that area is left up to someone else in the Dresden books. When a denarian relenquished his coin in "Death Masks" he was given right to leave by knights even though they knew he was going to go back to his old ways. If I were you I would name the sword "Patience". I wouldn't name it after any of the other virtue's because in my head that leads to other swords for each of those but patience is something that I feel fits well with the other sword names. Sadly I don't know the latin word for patience but it can't be to hard to look up, just my 2 cents worth.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: jadecourtflunky on January 26, 2011, 10:01:35 PM
I like the idea of a piece of the True Cross as well, though my thought was a staff carved from it.  You'd have a LOT of wizards sorcorers and others fighting over that.
I had the same idea. That or the crown of thorns jesus was made to wear. Maybe the crown got made into a bracelet that someone can wear to gain an affect like Nicodemus's noose, but it causes pain and digs into the user's skin. Instead of dooming one person to die, the person can select one person to be ressurected back to full life.
As for the True Cross, I was thinking a staff as well, or maybe even a small token that would give faith magic.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on January 26, 2011, 10:27:56 PM
Gratiacchius, the sword of Grace (as in repentance/forgiveness).  To my mind, that suits the Swords best. 
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Bruce Coulson on January 26, 2011, 11:41:19 PM
The Church came up with the doctrine 'miraculous multiplication' to explain the tremendous amount of fragments of the True Cross that were being sold during the Middle Ages.  (According to some accounts, there were enough pieces of the 'True Cross' to re-build Noah's Ark.)

The gypsy legend of the fourth nail states that because a gypsy spared the Saviour pain and suffering, the gypsies would be forever forgiven the sins of lying and theft.  Not sure how you could work that in, but a Sword that allowed the wielder to commit sins freely would be interesting.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on January 27, 2011, 12:13:24 AM
I dunno, to me Grace means forgiveness for past wrongs, not carte Blanche to do whatever you want. "Go forth and sin no more," and all that.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Sh33p on January 27, 2011, 01:13:11 AM
The Church came up with the doctrine 'miraculous multiplication' to explain the tremendous amount of fragments of the True Cross that were being sold during the Middle Ages.  (According to some accounts, there were enough pieces of the 'True Cross' to re-build Noah's Ark.)

The gypsy legend of the fourth nail states that because a gypsy spared the Saviour pain and suffering, the gypsies would be forever forgiven the sins of lying and theft.  Not sure how you could work that in, but a Sword that allowed the wielder to commit sins freely would be interesting.
Heaven's Blacksword?

Now there's a scary thought.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Tallyrand on January 27, 2011, 01:16:52 AM
I had the same idea. That or the crown of thorns jesus was made to wear. Maybe the crown got made into a bracelet that someone can wear to gain an affect like Nicodemus's noose, but it causes pain and digs into the user's skin. Instead of dooming one person to die, the person can select one person to be ressurected back to full life.
As for the True Cross, I was thinking a staff as well, or maybe even a small token that would give faith magic.

I made a character who was a pixie who wielded a spear made from one of the thrones from the crown which among other things gave him free will.  Still haven't had a chance to play him though.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ranma1558 on January 28, 2011, 05:38:55 AM
Though it moves a bit away from your original concept some, Roman virtues that show up in Christianity as well that might make good sword names.
Pietas: Piety; duty to God, family, and people.
Providentia: Providence, forethought; surviving trials to manifest a greater destiny
Laetita; joy, celebration usually after hardship
Gravitas; gravity, sense of responsibility
Firmitas; Tenacity, strength of mind
Clementia; mercy, gentleness

It seems "cchius" means sword in this context (I am not very good with latin, damn correspondence course....) so add it to the end of one of these for sword names, Gravitacchuis or something like that.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Amseriah on January 28, 2011, 05:42:59 AM
Very strong list Ranma, thank you!
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on January 28, 2011, 06:54:39 PM
"Gravitacchuis" - whoah, that's heavy man...
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on January 28, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
While those are all, to some extent, considered virtues by Christianity, they aren't really defining virtues like Faith, Hope, and Love.  Something big enough to have a Sword should be one of the primary virtues of the religion, IMO.  That's why I suggested Grace, which is at the center of the Christian conceptual worldview.       
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ranma1558 on January 28, 2011, 07:51:45 PM
I have to disagree, Pietas, duty, strikes me as a big one, much in the same way hope and love are, duty, piety is a defining characteristics of a religion. To quote weird Al "I'm the pious guy the little Amlettes wanna be like"
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: My Dark Sunshine on January 28, 2011, 08:06:08 PM
The 'Divine Quality Of' Mercy is certainly a 'defining virtue' (a rather subjective term) of Christianity. In fact, it is a large theme throughout their religion. Any of qualities suggested could work. As it isn't exactly cannon, just use whatever works for the game in question.

That is the (well, a) joy of the Dresden Files RPG, it tries very hard to allow as much creative thought as possible.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on January 28, 2011, 09:00:46 PM
Fair enough, fair enough.  Objections withdrawn.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: israphel on February 01, 2011, 03:11:03 AM
I would pair it with a "human" virtue; something that general people hold up as "this is important" that Christian doctrine does not specifically endorse. Several come to mind, but they would generally be offensive to one side or the other of the christian/non-christian argument.

My idea behind it though is, this was the nail that wasn't really needed. It might be useful, it was there just in case, but God didn't really need the 4th nail to fulfill the Divine Plan. Maybe Assurance? Certainty? If you have Faith, Hope, and Love, you don't really need any more Assurance.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Tempus Corvus on February 02, 2011, 12:50:40 AM
I was actually thinking about how to bring in something to combat Denarians for my game, and I realized something;
there have been a lot of martyred Saints over the course of history. Maybe there could be some lesser holy weapons made from their stuff?
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Drachasor on February 02, 2011, 12:58:07 AM
Hmm, Faith, Hope, Love...

Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael.  We have Michael giving the Sword of Hope to Sanya and Raphael helping Michael Carpenter with his defenses, let's associate Gabriel with the Sword of Faith.

So, if we associate the 4th Nail's sword (if it is a sword) with Uriel, I think we have some interesting options.  It could well be out there and no one ever hears about it.  Perhaps that is one of its powers, even.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Amseriah on February 02, 2011, 01:07:17 AM
I thought that the archangels associated with the swords were Uriel, Michael, and Gabriel.  I didn't think that Raphael was spoken for other than for helping Michael Carpenter with the panic room.  Am I incorrect?
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Drachasor on February 02, 2011, 01:15:02 AM
I thought that the archangels associated with the swords were Uriel, Michael, and Gabriel.  I didn't think that Raphael was spoken for other than for helping Michael Carpenter with the panic room.  Am I incorrect?

Mab's the only one that has really talked about them:

Quote
Mab’s head moved slightly with the words, but it was Grimalkin’s mewling voice that actually spoke. “The Prince of the Host is all pomp and ceremony, and when he moves it is with the thunder of the wings of an army of seraphim, the crash of drums, and the clamor of horns. The Trumpeter never walks quietly when he can appear in a chorus of light. The Demon Binder takes tasks upon his own shoulders and solves his problems with his own hands. But the Watchman…” Mab smiled. “Of the archangels, I like him the most. He is the quiet one. The subtle one. The one least known. And by far the most dangerous.”

The Prince of the Host is Michael, the Trumpeter is Gabriel, and the Demon Binder is Raphael.  Uriel is the Watchman.

I'm just linking them to the sword they were most closely mentioned with in the books.  Michael gave the sword to Sanya and Raphael helped protect the Carpenters.  Gabriel has not been mentioned specifically outside of what Mab said, but I thought I'd tie him to the Sword of Faith (he also guides prophets, it is said, so that kind of works on other levels).  Uriel is sneaky though, so if he was going to have a sword most closely associated with him, then it would be sneaky as well, I'd think.

Obviously in an actual game you wouldn't tie each Archangel 100% to a sword, but having each one more associated with one sword compared to the others gives each one a certain personality and helps us figure out how to implement a 4th sword in a cool way.  Naturally, it should be the Sword of Humility, since it humbles people and black ops people have to have enough humility to be content never being remembered or written about.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Amseriah on February 02, 2011, 01:22:21 AM
Hmmm, I like that, it is a very cool take on the concept of a 4th sword.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on February 02, 2011, 05:37:30 PM
Hrmm the Watchman's Sword? That could also be interesting...
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: bibliophile20 on February 02, 2011, 05:43:29 PM
Is the idea of the Watchman's Sword making anyone else think of Samuel Vimes?  Particularly his encounter with the Summoning Dark?
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on February 02, 2011, 06:13:04 PM
I have NO idea what any of that means...
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: devonapple on February 02, 2011, 06:24:39 PM
Is the idea of the Watchman's Sword making anyone else think of Samuel Vimes?  Particularly his encounter with the Summoning Dark?

They are references to Discworld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld). It's hard to explain succinctly, and it would hijack the thread. Samuel Vimes (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Samuel_Vimes) is a cynical, angry copper who only manages to contain himself because he believes in Justice. Almost supernaturally so. But to this point, he considers himself on both sides of the phrase 'quis custodies ipsos custodes' ('Who watches the watchmen?'). Excellent character study. My favorite in the series.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: bibliophile20 on February 02, 2011, 06:53:50 PM
I have NO idea what any of that means...
Oh, um... have you ever heard of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series?  Samuel Vimes is the head of the City Watch, and regardless of what ranks he's been awarded with, feels that he is, and always will be, A Watchman, and knows that that identity of being a Watchman keeps him from being just as bad as the scum he hunts.  The encounter that I mentioned is a scene in the book Thud! where he's been possessed--somewhat--by a being known as the Summoning Dark, a "quasi-demonic entity of pure vengeance" that had been called by some dwarves in response to their murders.  

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Ninja'd by devon. 

Now, to keep this from thread-jacking, I'll say this: Uriel is the Watchman, right?  And the Watchman needs to consort with lowest of the low as part of his work, all the while remaining incorruptible, must remain vigilant, and be willing to do violence, not only to others, but to his peace of mind and soul, so that others may live in peace.

Translating that into game terms is going to be a bit of work... any thoughts?
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Ren on February 02, 2011, 07:21:11 PM
Ah I think I've only read like one or two books of the series. Keep meaning to read them all but keep forgetting.

As for translating I think that this could lead into an interesting adventure that surrounds a Sub-sect of the Church that serves the needs of the Watcher. A sect not afraid to get its hands dirty to do what needs to be done. The 4th Nail in this case could easily take the form of a dagger or other small weapon used for assassination.

A sample adventure;  the last wielder died in battle and the Knife disappeared, prompting a panic and a global hunt for the missing weapon before it falls into the wrong hands. Only to find out the weapon has made its way into the hands of some homeless addict who is destined to become its next wielder whether they know it or not. Once the wielder is found they then have to be protected until they can be cleaned up, convinced to take the job and trained.
Title: Re: 4th Nail/Sword of the Cross ideas suggestions?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 02, 2011, 10:39:15 PM
If we are talking about swords that use people...

The Seeking Sword is a book by Jaan Kangilaski.  Set mostly in the present era it tells the tale of an ancient sword that practically forces people to kill.  In case someone out there wants to track the book down, I'll spoiler tag the details:
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In other words, a sword seeking to right a wrong that is so ancient that its cause no longer matters.  Driving people to kill - even though they will be arrested - because the descendants of some evil people have to die.  Wielded by people (usually men) who think they are doing good as they murder the unknowing descendants of someone who once did wrong.

Richard