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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: LokiTM on December 19, 2010, 07:24:46 PM
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Reading the threads on social aspects of IoP has gotten me thinking. I have been mulling over a character concept for a pure human reporter. I am thinking about making someone who is a pure social combat specialist.
While picturing how I would use such a character, I kept picturing her using a camera in intimidating ways (i.e. "I have a picture of you drinking that person's blood just now").
What are your thoughts on treating the camera as a weapon +1 for social attacks where it makes sense?
Any other ideas for non-powered social weapons?
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I tend to use stunts and temporary aspects for this sort of thing. Otherwise it gets confusing.
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I love it when players get creative. I like the concept of social weapons, but I'm not sure how great the camera is in and of itself. Incriminating photos definitely but I guess it all depends on how well you can convince your opponent that you have them.
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Yeah, physical weapons are more objective. But, why not? It's a clever idea.
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to me social weapons are something that could be more like... a hand tailored suit would give you something to presence or even as bad as it is a paid for smile (fixed teeth) would give you better to a social combat
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I can totally see your camera giving you a bonus to intimidation. Or a dress to social armor. Or small talking. I wouldn't go crazy or anything mind you with the bonuses, but that makes complete sense.
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One reason I like structuring this as a weapons is it increases social damage if you are successful, but does not actually make you more likely to intimidate.
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I think such things could have their uses, but drawing the line is tricky. A weapon is something that consistently and routinely adds to the effectiveness of an attack. Something like incriminating photos can only be pulled out once, making it more like a maneuver that you tag, but a camera or audio recorder... maybe those could be weapons, sure.
I think a good litmus test might be to see if we can come up with more social weapons than simply "camera", though...
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I think a good litmus test might be to see if we can come up with more social weapons than simply "camera", though...
Forest For The Trees Moment: Much like Weapons and Guns are paired with, well, weapons and guns to be effective, some social weapons are only going to be usable as social weapons when paired with the appropriate skill.
So, stuff like knives (switchblades, especially) and shotguns (especially after the slide's been racked) would qualify as Intimidation weapons, IMHO, but I'm having a harder time thinking of Rapport or Deceit weapons that aren't more situational, and would be better served as aspects.
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We can add blackmail photos.
Perhaps chocolate/other gifts for rapport.
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I think things like Blackmail Photos (and possibly fashion-based props) would work better as Assessments/Declarations of preparations they have made (using Investigation, Resources, Presence, etc.) which give the players Aspects (on themselves or on the target) which they can Compel/Invoke/Invoke for Effect.
Social Items may be better suited as enchanted items of jewelry, special ties or tie-pins, etc.. set up with particular bonuses. Though there is nothing saying you can't enchant a camera to be unusually good at taking photographs, giving a bonus to any Assessments using the Investigation skill.
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Though there is nothing saying you can't enchant a camera to be unusually good at taking photographs, giving a bonus to any Assessments using the Investigation skill.
Beyond the risk of accidentally hexing it.
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Beyond the risk of accidentally hexing it.
Maybe we need one of the Sidhe Technomancers, eh?
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Maybe we need one of the Sidhe Technomancers, eh?
Given the Sidhe general mistrust of technology, we'd probably need to consult the Haephestians or the Grigori.
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I'd run Social Weapons on a case-by-case basis. A gun might be a good Intimidation weapon, but what if the person you have the gun on is some 40 year old Krav Maga expert who could disarm you in a second and put that gun where the sun don't shine? As far as Rapport and Empathy, maybe food could be a social weapon. Otherwise, just run it as a declaration/manuever and get the +2.
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Drugs. Interrogation drugs, roofiecoladas, what have you. Something that has a continual effect like that I could rule acting as weapons (as easily as they could also be maneuvers/aspects, anyway).
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Thinking on it further, a Weapon:X is defined as something that deals more damage to the target, but doesn't make it any easier to hit that target. Most of the social weapon ideas that we've been throwing around don't qualify; a knife or gun will help the intimidation go alot smoother, food and drugs aid directly, and so forth.
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^Apologies in advance...
Wolverine is not a social weapon, the threat of Wolverine is a more social weapon.
You may now continue with your conversation. ;)
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Thinking on it further, a Weapon:X is defined as something that deals more damage to the target, but doesn't make it any easier to hit that target. Most of the social weapon ideas that we've been throwing around don't qualify; a knife or gun will help the intimidation go alot smoother, food and drugs aid directly, and so forth.
If you want to take them as an item of power, you could do that, then add a bunch of powers/stunts to it.
IE, Item Of Power: Shotgun [+2]
[-1] +1 to intimidation (this is a power, not a stunt)
[-1] +1 bonus for scaring people and getting them to go along with what you say, spend a fate point to add an addition +2 intimidation once a scene
[-1] Moves the social defense trapping to intimidation (the idea being when you stick a shotgun in someones face they are less likely to give you lip or try to threaten you)
[-1] +1 to Gun roles (this is a power, not a stunt)
[-1] +1 to attacking with a shot gun, spend a fate point for an additional +2 once a scene.
this is a -3 Item of power that for nothing at all gives you +2 to intimidation, double that to +4 for a Fate Point, the same thing for Guns, which means lets say your a Hendricks type you take Guns and Intimidation for your apex skills + a high endurance skill, add in a stunt like No Pain No Gain, a stunt moving dodging to endurance, and likewise a high athletics and presence you can have a pretty big bruiser that is real nasty with in both a fight and in social combat who still has a possible five fate points available to him at the start of a game (possibly less depending if you take more stunts).
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How about a cop uniform? Just the fact that (you think) you're talking to a cop would automatically put you on the defensive. Sure, someone like Marcone wouldn't be affected as much, but that's because he's got such a high social skill in the first place, so the extra +1 doesn't make that much of a difference.
Other options include:
- Green Beret Uniform
- Cop/FBI badge (you flash it and get +1 to social conflict)
- Obvious Yakuza tattoos
- Scary looking knife scar
- British Accent
- The ability to give someone the eyebrow (worth at least +2)
Basically anything that make you appear generally more intimidating/formidable than you should be could be used as an "item" to give you a social combat edge.
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But aren't those things still Aspects? They make it easier to intimidate by their presence, as opposed to dealing more stress with a lower roll.
Sodium Pentathol makes more sense to me, really. It doesn't just make success of a roll more likely, but brings the target closer to revealing the information you want (i.e., a Taken Out result)
I was just thinking though, anything that is a social weapon should be obvious as such to its target. They should know that they need to set up a block when they look across at one. An interrogated soldier knows to steel himself for the drugs, and will do his best to do so.
Just a thought though. I like this idea very much.
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It's not quite the same topic, but what about Inhuman/Supernatural/Mythic Charisma. It would have the same bonus as the strength powers but focused on social combat. You could probably also extend toughness and recovery to the social realm as well pretty easily. Speed doesn't seem to translate however.
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Could a spell be considered a social weapon? Say a spell that scares someone so it inflects social, rather than physical stress... Then again, scaring might be mental stress...
How about a Lust spell? I know that Bob's Love Potion is a maneuver, but how about a spell designed to socially take someone out and give them the social consequence of "Hot for Sex"?
And embarrassment spell might work...
It's just other than spells, when I think of Social Weapons I see a lot of Aspects instead of weapons. The few weapons I can see would only work in certain situations, making them more like an Aspect than a gun.
Richard
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One problem with establishing a social equivalent to the physical weapons available in the game is that the relevant skills aren't set up in the same way. The Guns skill and the Weapons skill require you to have the weapon to use them. You might be able to use a little black dress to assist in certain rapport rolls, but if the character is dressed in something else, she can still make the roll. Likewise, a voice recorder or a camera could aid an intimidation roll, but you can still intimidate without them.
Stunts are probably a better way to model these sorts of situational bonuses. A killer wardrobe stunt could give the player a +1 bonus to some subset of social rolls. An expensive wardrobe stunt might let you substitute resources for social skills, maybe limited to once per scene. If you're playing a nosy reporter, maybe you attach Tools of the Trade to your Perform skill, allowing you to use it in place of intimidate, or let Perform modify other social skills.
Also, what sorts of things could increase the impact of a social hit, without increasing the chance to hit? Seems like most social assists would be more versatile than that, and also less universally applicable.
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This also broaches the topic of Social Armor. Those two burly bodyguards who whisk away pesky journalists? Social Armor. All that money the politician has spread around, assuring that inquiries are buried and damning evidence disappears? Social Armor. The "old boys network"? Social Armor.
Just a thought. :)
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Actually, I think this works very well:
Think of physical damage. Even a person without any "fists" skills (+0) or stunts can still
a) Pick up a club/knife and do physical damage
b) Will do more damage with a spiked mace than with a plastic bat.
Similarly, I would consider your skill in social conflict to be the native ability to make people see things "your way". Social stunts would be general things like "dazzle", "intimidate", and "drop names of important people into the conversation".
Clothes/badges/tattoos are trappings (i.e. weapons) that help you pull those stunts off, in the sense that even someone without those stunts/skills could still try and dress up and try to intimidate/impress people (and would get a bonus).
Edit:
You might add stunts that let you use social weapons more effectively in the same way that "crackshot" allows you to use guns with a bonus. Such a stunt would be something like "impeccable fashion sense" - giving you an extra +1 to damage when dressed correctly, on top of the +1 to hit you'd get for just wearing an expensive suit.
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But access to stuff like clothes/badges/tatoos that actually have mechanical effect is generally represented as a stunt or an aspect. You might narrate that two characters are wearing similar clothes, for instance, but for one of those characters, the clothes are just part of the description of the scene. If the character wants those clothes to have an impact on the story, he or she should represent that by either having a stunt like "killer wardrobe", or use a skill-roll to place an aspect on themselves like "dressed to impressed", probably a resources roll, or maybe an contacts or empathy roll to know what sort of wardrobe would have the greatest impact.
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My noob impression:
One way to look at Soc combat...since anyone can do it to anyone treat it as Fists...and there is Lethal Weapon stunt to turn Fists into a Weapon (with limits). Not to mention the above point that Guns and Weapons have Weapon:x allowed by the simple expenditure of equipping them, but you also NEED to have that sword or rifle. And anyone can have Armor:X vs. those Weapon:Xs by the simple expenditure of equipping them. You don't NEED a camera or cop uniform to Intimidate. Also there seems to be a lack in Armor:X ideas that should be reasonably as available as Weapon:X ideas.
That being said...it is a cool idea and there are good examples of Social Weapons that would do the extra stress only on a connect.
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"Strands of Fate" encourages the accumulation of Social Weapons in Social Conflicts. However, their effectiveness/value is determined by the GM, and they seem to be one-use (you can only use damning photos once in a given conflict, so if you have a slick opponent, you had better use them when they would count most). Heck, one particularly valuable bit of evidence in the book example was worth +10!
So these would probably work in DFRPG like a series of Declarations/Assessments - you may simply need to make several of them, depending on how the GM wants to handle things.
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Personally, I'm a bit skeptical of this due to my players already having a hell of a time dealing with social (I'm trying very hard to break them of their DnD smash-first-and-forget-to-ask-questions-at-all attitudes). Basically it means a lot more thinking and complexity to something that most people already have a hard time grasping (I know, it shouldn't be too hard but saying that is like saying that people should use good sense and no, there's nothing common about good sense).
Still, I do like your thinking. I would probably say nix the weapons/armor and simply use declarations and things to place aspects. Every tag is +2 which is a pretty nice weapon or bonus to a defensive roll. I know it doesn't /sound/ as cool as weapons/armor but this isn't bruising. This is guile and subterfuge and the like.
Also, given that the penis mightier than the sword, you'd have to make a pen a weapon:4 which is just wrong on so many levels.
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Weapons adding to physical damage is balanced out by the presence of armour. Wearing armour isn't common in our society, but you have the option of wearing armour:n when you know someone is going to smack you with weapon:n.
If you intend to add the social equivalent of weapon:n, you need to also add the option of armour:n. Which gets tricky, because the same things that help in some situations hurt in others.
There is also the fact of smaller stress tracks. Put simply, 1 additional shift of damage means more when you top out at 4 than when you top out at 12. This means that generally social weapon and armour ratings should tend to be lower than physical weapon and armour ratings.
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If you intend to add the social equivalent of weapon:n, you need to also add the option of armour:n. Which gets tricky, because the same things that help in some situations hurt in others.
My apologies for omitting that - SoF indeed has a Social armor equivalent called "Reputation," and the weapon aspect is referred to as "Leverage" or something similar.