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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bibliophile20 on November 22, 2010, 04:27:33 AM
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Plotting out university based adventures and ran up against something.
Dorms wouldn't have any more of a threshold than any hotel; they're large, impersonal, and the residents are ultimately transient. But a fraternity or sorority house... that's a different story. They belong to an extended clan that claim brother/sister-hood with each other and have adoption ceremonies (i.e. rituals) to bind this, pride and energy is put into the house (in decoration, if nothing else), a great deal of emotions are expended within the bounds of the house (parties, papers, exam studying, etc) and, lastly, some houses have been within the possession of a single fraternity or sorority for years if not decades.
So... would a frat house have a threshold?
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My suggestion: If it makes the story better, choose that option. Maybe work it on a case-by-case basis as well. Some of them are sister/brotherhoods, others are just groups who like funny names.
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I'd say yes, but not a very strong one. Frat/Sorority houses are still a temporary home. Nobody expects to build a life there, or live there for more than 8 years tops.
It does have a sense of community, of family and it is a long term home.
So no it couldn't build a strong threshold, since every "family member" there fully intends to leave in the foreseeable future. but it does have a lot of community binding within, which might build it higher than a motel.
I'd say 1-2 tops, and only for really longstanding, close knit frats.
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Some Greek organizations could even be fronts/recruiting grounds for cults/sorcerous groups, who MIGHT ward their turfs
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Which to me begs the question: what would the threshold of places where people fully intend to stay and call home for a significant length of time (longer than a few days but not their whole lives) be?
For that matter, what would the threshold for such places like the presidential residences of the White House?
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I'd say the threshold of the frat house as a whole would be very, very weak. Almost non-existent for all but the very old ones. Now the student rooms would have slightly stronger ones, factoring in how long they've lived there, how much they think of it as home, how much natural magic has gone on there (relationships and strong moments and the like).
So the room of the fourth year with the steady girlfriend who practically lives with him who considers the room his home and has had plenty of life experiences there would have a decently strong threshold, quite possibly stronger then some bachelor pad houses. Whereas the new freshman who sleeps in his room only every other night and hasn't put up a single decoration might have essentially no threshold.
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What about layered wards, if every 3 or 4 years someone come along with the ability to make wards, after 20-30years they can add up to some serious defense's. like Edinburgh, it's not a home to a family but it has major wards and defenses (Harry has mentioned wards but never a threshold while there)
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What about layered wards, if every 3 or 4 years someone come along with the ability to make wards, after 20-30years they can add up to some serious defense's. like Edinburgh, it's not a home to a family but it has major wards and defenses (Harry has mentioned wards but never a threshold while there)
Not necessarily. You have to remember that "permanent" magic actually requires a lot of upkeep to fight off the entropic effects of sunrise. If every 3-4 years someone came along with warding abilities, even if the previous one was an extremely powerful warder, the wards would be fraying down to nothing by the time the new one got there. So yes in that situation the house might always BE warded, but the wards wouldn't really build on eachother.
Which to me begs the question: what would the threshold of places where people fully intend to stay and call home for a significant length of time (longer than a few days but not their whole lives) be?
I would say that this depends. Mostly people don't end up living in a house forever anyway. But theres a difference between moving into a house, building a life and a family there and later buying a new one; and moving into a place KNOWING its temporary.
When you move into a dorm or Frat house you know theres an expiration date. You know its only for 4-8 years, then you'll be moving on. Going in knowing that changes how you feel about a place, even if just on a subconscious level, you are aware that its only a temporary living arrangement, not a home.
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Presumably if a Greek house is being actively warded by anyone, it would be someone in the organization's leadership, or one of their designees, so the wards would probably be maintained more often.
As far as natural Thresholds, then, sounds like they would average out to be on par with "bachelor pad"?
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Given that a strong threshold seems to involve a family, a sense of home, over time (preferably generations), and the safety and security of a loving environment, I'd say that a frat house barely counts.
Plus, the more like a meeting place or place of business that a building serves, the less of a threshold it is... and at every frat house I've ever been in, no one knows who exactly is there at any given time, and the building is quite public.. so.. probably at best, equal to an apartment building (no threshold on the building itself, each individual bedroom possibly having a low threshold).
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You know, it occurs to me that a threshold can be inherited and doesn't have to be built by one single person. Murphy's threshold isn't powerful because she built it, it's powerful because the house had meaning and life to someone. Sometimes a frat can become a very strong family that overcomes generations of students and unites them. I'd say that under those circumstances that even though no one person stays for more than eight years the importance of the place to that family and the amount of life within could create a very powerful threshold. Not to say that every frat house will have one, just that I could see a few with one.
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Murph's house was her dad's, if I remember, thus the threshold. It's a generational thing.
Also, it's built on trust and safety.. which AREN'T things created by hazing, the alpha-mentality of competitive students, ect, ect, ect.
So i'd argue that if this is true, it's exceptionally rare. If you have a house where girls are potentially getting roofied and date-raped, probably not building a strong threshold. If you have a house where you are constantly worried about being accepted by other members of that household, probably not a strong threshold.
If you have a single family home that's been in the family for generations but has been tied to generations of physical or other abuse, then I doubt the threshold there is very strong or even exists; it seems like a perfect place for demons to come and go freely.
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Oh yeah, no I'm definitely not saying that every frat house is going to be like that, but one of my friends joined the nerd frat up in Beloit WI and he said they were like the brothers he never had.
Also, it's built on trust and safety.. which AREN'T things created by hazing, the alpha-mentality of competitive students, ect, ect, ect.
...If you have a house where girls are potentially getting roofied and date-raped, probably not building a strong threshold. If you have a house where you are constantly worried about being accepted by other members of that household, probably not a strong threshold.
Seems to me that this is everyone's idea of what a frat house is and I know that it's not the case in a significant portion of frat houses.
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Hazing has "gone away", and if you've ever been in a "frat house" on a Christian campus, it's sorta like being at boyscouts camp 24/7... so yeah, I'm not saying all of them are BAD. But the tensions that arise between equals, and the competition therein, isn't the same as a loving household.
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If it is the right kind of frat, then yes, a house can have a threshold.
Let's look at Revenge of the Nerds. The Alpha's original house would not have a threshold, but the Lambda house would. There was a real sense of brotherhood there. These guys would do anything for each other. Sure, there are arguments, resentments, and what not, but it is like that with any other family.
To paraphrase Harry re: Morgan: "He might have been an A-hole, but he was our A-hole.
Also, keep in mind, that a lot of frats use several rites, rituals, and ceremonies during the course of a year. I'm not talking about the "Thank you Sir, may I have another" stuff from Animal House, but based on old and well-respected rites such as . A lot of "secret societies" look to ancient texts, or what was saved from them, as a basis of their degrees, passages, etc... There could be real power in those rites.
Really, it's just a game and if it helps the story, then have at it!
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I would say that this depends. Mostly people don't end up living in a house forever anyway. But theres a difference between moving into a house, building a life and a family there and later buying a new one; and moving into a place KNOWING its temporary.
When you move into a dorm or Frat house you know theres an expiration date. You know its only for 4-8 years, then you'll be moving on. Going in knowing that changes how you feel about a place, even if just on a subconscious level, you are aware that its only a temporary living arrangement, not a home.
But there's a difference in KNOWING it is temporarily for a few weeks or a couple of months and KNOWING it is temporary for a few years.
I suppose it depends on how you view a home. You grew up in your parent's place, but you KNOW that you will be leaving sooner or later. But that is still your home. Or your parents bought a place in the city where they work, but they KNOW that they will be retiring back to the countryside. But that place in the city is still their home. It depends on how the person views and feels about the place, if I view my hostel room as my home for the next couple of years, then subconsciously that is my home, even consciously I KNOW that it is only for the next couple of years.
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For that matter, what would the threshold for such places like the presidential residences of the White House?
I'd say the threshold here would be seriously strong because it houses the leader of an entire country. The actual persons who reside there are all but irrelevant, it's the position and the focus of millions of people that matter to me. It's an archetypal position.
Of course, I don't know that there is anything in the books that support this view.
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I'd say the threshold here would be seriously strong because it houses the leader of an entire country. The actual persons who reside there are all but irrelevant, it's the position and the focus of millions of people that matter to me. It's an archetypal position.
Of course, I don't know that there is anything in the books that support this view.
The boosted Threshold of Churches and other institutions of faith maybe. Patriotism is just another form of faith, so I don't see why the "Faith Magic" of all those masses wouldn't strengthen the threshold.
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Hazing has "gone away", and if you've ever been in a "frat house" on a Christian campus, it's sorta like being at boyscouts camp 24/7... so yeah, I'm not saying all of them are BAD. But the tensions that arise between equals, and the competition therein, isn't the same as a loving household.
Lol I was a cub scout through boy scouts and went to every camp offered in my area every year and I can tell you from experience that yes, Scouts haze. Not in the typical sense but you're not in until you prove yourself. You can be a member and earn badges and what not without actually belonging to any group of friends. This is NOT to say that all troops are like this. However, this crosses over directly to the topic at hand.
Yes, Frats haze and roofie girls and do all sorts of awful things but at the same time, not all do. As with anything, some are always going to be better than others. I'm in favor of the frat itself having a fairly weak threshold, if any. Probably 0-2. But then the rooms themselves should have seperate thresholds. Remember that one of the parts of making a threshold strong is that you feel a sense of safety there. I know people on bad campuses who feel their room is their only safe haven and they cling to that. They decorate it and put love into it and love the school well-enough but when it comes to people, their room protects them. That would constitute a threshold being a bit stronger.
Let's continue with the friend I mentioned for the example. She doesn't live in a frat but rather a dorm so lets say the dorm has a threshold of +0 and the feeling of safety gives her room a threshold of +2. Now, she has a roommate who is a bit transient so that would lower it but her and her roommate love each other as sisters. so that adds to it. We'll say those cancel each other out (+2-2=0). They decorate and put up pictures and symbols of things that are important to them and really "move in" to the room. As people have said before, however, there is always that sense that they'll be leaving. Sure, they're staying for years but they know and look forward to the day they leave. That again, cancels. This leaves her room at +2.
Now, let's look at an ideal frat threshold without any wards or anything. The frat is at a very old college and has been established at the college since the foundation or shortly thereafter. The residents of the frat tend to be the youths of generations of alumni. They all have a sense of brotherhood and a feeling of safety in the frat. Going with the base of +2 and granting the generations bonus we'll say that's at least a +4. We'll ignore the -2 for being temporary because while yes, they're all going to leave, they feel they'll return, even if only through their children. We'll go further and say this is a no-nonsense school - Okay that that doesn't ever happen. There's always and animal house in some incarnation or another - no-nonsense frat. So parties aren't really happening so there aren't a lot of transients coming and going. This doesn't add anything so much as not subtract anything. Now let's say that again, the college has seen dark days and the frat house now gives an intense feeling of safety to the brothers. That would be a +2 and now you have a +6 to +8 frat house.
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Something I'd like to point out that maybe hasn't been considered.
A threshold can also have power from who you are "letting in". Thus a shop doesn't have a threshold despite being a store that the owner is very proud of pours his heart and soul into. A shop probably doesn't even have a threshold if it's been a family ran buisness for a 100 of years. Too many strangers are using it, too many uninvited (but still welcome) guests.
Frats are a place of wild socialization. Because the frat lets anyone in to party (uninvited but welcome), most of the location would not have a threshold as it's being eroded by strangers.
If the frat had a special room for frat buisness that wasn't used to party, it is very possible it has a threshold, espcially such a room being used for several years.
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Frats are a place of wild socialization. Because the frat lets anyone in to party (uninvited but welcome), most of the location would not have a threshold as it's being eroded by strangers.
Just like to point out that again people are assuming that this is the way all frats are and always will be. Just because you hear about the percentage that does all of these things, does not mean that they represent the whole. Anecdote is not singular for data. Once does not mean always, hell thousands of times does not mean always.
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Just like to point out that again people are assuming that this is the way all frats are and always will be. Just because you hear about the percentage that does all of these things, does not mean that they represent the whole. Anecdote is not singular for data. Once does not mean always, hell thousands of times does not mean always.
Why try to make frats out to be something they aren't known for? I mean Role Playing deals in "this is how they commonly work". It's a baseline for all the players to have mutal understanding of the way it works. Generally speaking all the players are going to graviate to the idea of Animal House by default. If there's a good story reason to change the players perception and provide a threshold then great, but I'm not going to go looking for evidence to the contrary just to say frats have a threshold by default, mainly because from personal experience they are mostly concerned with getting drunk and partying.
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The boosted Threshold of Churches and other institutions of faith maybe. Patriotism is just another form of faith, so I don't see why the "Faith Magic" of all those masses wouldn't strengthen the threshold.
Or, given Washington DC was constructed de novo, maybe some behind the scenes geomancy strengthening the defenses in the area? If nothing else I seriously suspect in general the Wardens watch the leaders of every major power, the consequences of a warlock or some supernatural beastie screwing around with those governments is too severe not to (or for that matter, said governments deciding on their own to start a wizard pogrom). Installing anti-magic defenses to stop somebody from mind-bending a nuclear launch is a likely precaution as well; some sort of wards to detect magic being used at a minimum.
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I would say an OLD frat/sorority house WOULD have a decent threshold, because it's more than an apartment. Dresden is a bachelor apartment in an old lady's house and it has enough threshold to keep out some things and take the magic whammy out of a demon. A frat house is all those things you said and more. All the residents there are bonding under a common goal. The very building itself has meaning to them (as opposed to a military base which may not have more than a utilitarian purpose to the denizens there). And a Frat house can be a VERY old building with a lot of that bond. One hundred years is 25 graduating classes of connections, emotions, bonds and purpose. I'd give it a 1 for every 20-40 years of age.
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Of note Dresden has wards. They have on more than one occasion stated that his threshold is almost worse than a public place but the wards make up for it.
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Of note Dresden has wards. They have on more than one occasion stated that his threshold is almost worse than a public place but the wards make up for it.
True and false. He does have wards, and that is where most of his security comes from. That is one thing that should be distinguished for the purpose of this argument. Wards are not threshold. They are specific spells tied to an existing threshold.
However, it never says that his wards are almost worse than a public place. It never even implies it. What Bob says is that his apartment doesn't really have much of a threshold to begin with. Thats because its a bachelor pad. It has a threshold of 1. Which is what your average Frat would have.
A public place has no threshold. So even a 1 is a clear step up. A super-party frat would also have none, as they're basically public places.
There are probably frat houses out there that have higher, but they should be rare and incredibly close knit. And I think focusing on those is silly. The question was, "would a Frat house have a threshold?" not, "In extreme circumstances, is it possible to build a threshold on a frat house?"
To me it seems the question refers to the standard of frat houses, the stereotype. and it seems the consensus is that an average frat house would have 0-1 threshold, with a few shining examples of community that have higher... And probably one Wiccan frat with a threshold of 2 and some hefty wards.
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Yes, I was exaggerating but what I was trying to say is that Dresden's place can keep the nasties out because of the wards, not because he has a strong threshold.
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But it wasn't the wards that kept the demon's magic outside.
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But it wasn't the wards that kept the demon's magic outside.
That happened before he even put up wards. Kalshazak pushed through his meager (1 point) threshold, and even for that it had to stop and gather up resources. Because The demon was a being of spirit and subject to constant attacks on its very form for breaching the threshold.
This is a perfect example of the power of thresholds, since Bob described Kalshazak as "A seriously badass toad demon", and it still had to stop and think before breaching even a low threshold.
... Or you may be referring to Nicodemus' Entropy curse from Death Masks, but in that instance Harrys wards did keep the magic out.
Eitherway. I stick by my prior assessment. Your average Frat is a bachelor pad. No more, no less. There are ofcourse shining examples that they can be more than that (as well as examples of them being less), but they are few and far between. The exception, not the rule.
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I'm saying it's at LEAST that. But an old one might be quite a bit more, if the building has been a frat for a very long time, it might build a stronger one. Since it's such a long continuation of the same bonds and feelings, much like a family.
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See. I have a problem with the AT LEAST part. a party frat would have so many strangers drifting through that it would weardown the threshold even if it where only 1.
And if someone where selling drugs (not an uncommon occurrence), or conducting any form of business out of the frat, then that would destroy the threshold. That is the exact reason that the Sells lakehouse didn't have a threshold. Victor was running his business out of it.
I agree that most frats would have 1. a superparty frat (or one that a high volume campus drug dealer lived in) wouldn't have any. and MAYBE one or two others per campus would meet the requirements to have higher, but again, they are the exception, not the rule.
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Eitherway. I stick by my prior assessment. Your average Frat is a bachelor pad. No more, no less. There are ofcourse shining examples that they can be more than that (as well as examples of them being less), but they are few and far between. The exception, not the rule.
Just curious but has anyone here been in a frat? It seems to me that everyone is assuming that all frats or even most frats are the ones we have seen as examples in the media. It's been my experience that most frats are families and really old ones. Maybe I've just been lucky but it seems to me that everyone's view is skewed by the much more widely seen examples of what a frat shouldn't be.
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Just curious but has anyone here been in a frat? It seems to me that everyone is assuming that all frats or even most frats are the ones we have seen as examples in the media. It's been my experience that most frats are families and really old ones. Maybe I've just been lucky but it seems to me that everyone's view is skewed by the much more widely seen examples of what a frat shouldn't be.
I've never been in a frat. But I was in a House (as in House Gryffindor). Where I stayed I would say the threshold should be more like what Billy and Georgia's house would be to the Alpha's. I know of at least 3 of them met their now-wives there. Guy I know have been there for more than 10 years - undergrad, postgrad (masters, phd) and then as a lecturer in charge of the house.