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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: kihon on September 09, 2010, 05:33:18 PM
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Inhuman/Supernatural/Mythic Strength all adds to your Might roll.
So a plain mortal body builder / weight lifter has a Might of 5 (pretty strong),
and a vampire only has a might of 2 along with Inhuman Strength... So the plain mortal is stronger?
I know this is a role-playing vs rules reading question, but "Supernatural Powers" should always be beyond the normal?
A discussion came up in our group in which the martial artist (might 5 - long story) talks about being able to be as strong as an "inhuman" strength category - assuming the creature has no "might" skill. Good question - by the rules, perhaps he's right. But I'm thinking that any "Supernatural Power" - even the base (inhuman) is going to be stronger than a normal mortals might. Am I right / wrong??? Thoughts, comments, suggests welcome. Thanks.
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In the World of Darkness days it was easy... Potence 1 always beat Strength 5.... but here with Might.... and the inhuman/supernatural/mythic just giving bonus to might... well - a 5 might seems to beat a creature with inhuman strength (if they have no other might) -- and is equal to a supernatural strength creature (if they have no other might)... seems like the system was not meant to work that way, but who knows???
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Well, yes, that is how it works. Inhuman Strength especially doesn't always trump mortal Might, it just means the entity possessing the Inhuman Strength will be substantially stronger than you'd expect from looking at it. The benefits that Inhuman Strength alone will give a creature is extra melee and grapple damage.
IMO there aren't many beings that will have Inhuman Strength without a Might skill to back it up. Some White Court Vampires maybe, and a few Scions, but most things that have that supernatural edge will also augment it with the actual skill, to really bring them to superhuman levels.
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Inhuman Strength adds +3 to Might for the purpose of lifting or breaking things. So a Might 5 mortal and a Might 2 vampire (with inhuman strength) will be able to deadlift about the same amount on average (barring differences in rolls, if appropriate) and will be able to break about as many boards when doing the karate-chop contest thingy. The vampire only gets +1 to grapple checks, so the mortal will actually be able to out-wrestle the vamp where 'skill' is the issue. The vamp, however, benefits from being able to inflict extra stress in grapples or strength-based attacks (the effectiveness of this will depend more on relative Weapons/Fists/Athletics than Might), so any time the mortal fails to defend against the vampire, it will hurt much more than the reverse.
Moving up to Supernatural Strength, a mortal has to rely on luck to compete with even the most wimpy monster in lifting (maximum 5 Might for the mortal, minimum 6 Might for a completely unpracticed monster). The mortal might be able to rely on skill in grapples, but unless his fighting skills outclass the monster, he'll likely soon be tenderized into a tasty snack by the monsters powerful blows.
That's my take, at least...
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Put simply, a low Might creature with inhuman strength is stronger than a mortal with Might 5, but that mortal is more skilled at using what strength he has.
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As a GM I have an issue with the system -- a "supernatural" power which does not trump a mortal skill -- then why have it be supernatural. I understand that all role-playing systems break down at the combat level, as it is very difficult to accurately conduct it - that said, if the system allows a mortal's strength to be greater than (for example) a vampires ---- well I look to the books I have read about vampires (by numerous authors), and I can't find one where a mortal was stronger than one. I look specifically to the Dresedenverse, and can't find a vanillia mortal being stronger than a vampire -- and that leads to a question of the system accurately representing the skill/power it is supposed to. A common sense approach says that a monster with "Supernatural" strength is going to be stronger than a mortal - but it doesn't seem to work within the system.
Any other GM's run into this, and if so, any ideas? Any "home brew" changes. I'm thinking of replacing the "supernatural" strength categories with something like potence from WoD -- at least in the Supernatural always being greater than the mundane mortal. Anyone try this already? Any issues with it?
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Well I had an issue with this too because BCV don't have Might listed as a skill so it's only +0 or +1 most likely.
So yes, pcs with Might +5 would trump the BCV because grappling blocks all actions and the BCV couldn't do much against a block 6-8 :(
Bout to post a thread about how my game went last night anyway.
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What WillH said.
But if you want Inhuman Strength to always trump raw might skill, the easiest solution I see is to house-rule in a requirement: Must have a might skill of at least, say, three, before you can take Inhuman Strength. (At might three and inhuman strength, you can beat a human with might five for lifting / breaking things, and your blows have more force behind them - but the human would have a slight edge in a wrestling match just by being better at using the strength they've got. Which seems pretty reasonable to me. Heck, might two and inhuman strength might not be unreasonable as a minimum.)
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The idea that its stronger than you would think from what you can see is the best interpretation. Might includes things like leverage and mass. Something that is 2 foot tall with inhuman strength has a lower might score than a 6 foot tall body builder, for example.
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How does this sound for a "house rule":
If a creature has "inhuman strength" it is assumed that they have a might of at least 2 (unless stated it is higher).
If a creature has "supernatural strength" it is assumed that they have a might of at least 4 (unless higher).
If a creature has "mythic strength" it is assumed that they have a might of at least 6.
Perhaps that would take care of the whole issue ???
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The RAW work just and don't need any adjustment.
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Respectfully - I disagree.
When a plain jane mortal body builder is stronger than a BCV it doesn't work in my version of the Dresdenverse .... and frankly I haven't seen that work that way in the books either.
In most cases it may work, but not all. Your Inhuman strength vampire is weaker than a joe bodybuilder... perhaps in your world, not mine.
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So bump the standard BCV to Supernatural Strength, I certainly plan to do so in my game. IMO Inhuman still serves the purpose of having a character be stronger than mass and musculature would indicate, but not overwhelmingly so.
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Also, a plain jane mortal will not have a might score of 5. An amazing, top of the line bodybuilder jane mortal will. A score at superb indicates that that person is at the apex of normal human abilities, in the top tier world-wide for that. I think I can understand how such a person could outdo a supernatural monster thats got a little bit of oomph to back its spindly limbs up.
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Respectfully - I disagree.
When a plain jane mortal body builder is stronger than a BCV it doesn't work in my version of the Dresdenverse .... and frankly I haven't seen that work that way in the books either.
In most cases it may work, but not all. Your Inhuman strength vampire is weaker than a joe bodybuilder... perhaps in your world, not mine.
It isn't stronger. For a grapple, I don't care how big you are, if I have you in an armbar you aren't getting out. Leverage makes a difference. The brute strength doesn't do jack if it is stuck in a unusable position. You also have complete control over the Vampire's skills. Give your vampire a good might score, and say he used to be a pro-wrestler or something. Use a different, higher skill to break out. Use Fists as a move to break the grapple, Athletics to get away, etc.
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Define "stronger"? How much force you can put behind a punch doesn't necessarily translate to lifting capacity or skill in wrestling; a BCV with a zero might can dish out rather more hurt than a mortal wrestler, but may not have the build (or leverage - remember, BCVs don't weight much) to effectively lift or carry heavy objects, or the skill to actually pin someone (which, again, requires leverage and an understanding of how your foes joints work, more than it requires raw strength.)
Still, if you want to put a might minimum on various levels of strength power in your game - that sounds like a perfectly fine house rule. I'd suggest taking a closer look at what the values actually mean, though - for example, I was designing a dragon with supernatural strength and hulking size, and it worked out that a might skill of three was about right - that's enough to casually carry a mid-sized car; more than that would've been overkill.
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The description for Inhuman Strength states that those who possess it are stronger than the average human, not stronger than the strongest human. With a +3 bonus to lifting, even the weakest vampire (Might 0) will outclass the average human (+1) ... and will do well against even a well-trained human (+3).
That said, the monster templates are starting points; feel free to add to them if you feel the need. This is particularly true for (as an example) vampires -- if you compare the vampire templates to other templates, you might not that while other templates list peak skills, stating that other skills are 2s or 1s, the vampire's template doesn't. you should probably pick out an appropriate mortal template, then take the better of each skill listed on the two templates, or some such thing. This should obviously be done with some care, lest the resulting monster be too powerful...
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Someone with Inhuman strength can do;
1) Lift heavy furniture without even rolling even if they have no might at all.
2) Have a +50% chance to successfully grapple (+1 to rolls) over a human of the same Might.
3) Take out an average human being with a single blow if they roll anything above their defense.
Now consider what might scores mean;
+0 might means below human norm; a weak adult who has never trained or a strong child.
+1 might means human norm; an adult who has never trained or a strong teenager.
+2 might means lifting heavy adults without trying; a strong adult or an average adult with training/experience.
+3 might means lifting heavy furniture without trying; a very strong human with training is at that level.
+4 might is the realm of professional weightlifters and strongmen.
+5 might is for the strongest people in the world
Now a vampire that was a teenager or a 5-ft young woman while alive and has no training whatsoever becomes as strong as a very strong human with training as soon as they get Inhuman Strength. With Supernatural Strength, they are stronger than the strongest men in the world by a fair margin but, due to lack of training, skill and leverage, they are still less effective in grappling.
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I've played plenty of WoD games so I get what you're aiming for here. Although honestly I'd hardly aim for potence personally. It wasn't terribly well balanced.
In any case, if you want to house rule in things just house rule that any level of strength requires a might skill of 2 as a pre-req. That's all that's required. If you do that you should be fine. With your scaling requirements what you're basically telling the poor schmuck who bought Inhuman Strength with his very limited refresh is that his strength does not and cannot ever matter against someone with Supernatural Strength or better. This is kind of the same effect as telling your potence 2 vampire that all the experience points he spent are completely worthless because his adversary has potence 3. You're fine as long as it's all NPCs but the minute you get a PC with this kind of power you'll end up backpedaling really fast or find yourself on the spot trying to explain why PC Strongman suddenly resembles the scrawny wimp that gets sand kicked at him on the beach.
Also keep in mind the damage bonuses to grapples and muscle powered weapons are unique to those with this power at any level even before alterations are made. And honestly... Apex human vs Supernaturally Powered Couch Potato is always very contrived. Yes, we can make that comparison. But it's pretty easy to go off the deep end trying to rebalance everything based on one very odd circumstance. I'm actually rather curious what prompted the original post here. Something about this martial artist character bothered you but I'm not sure exactly what. Him specializing in grappling and being able to out-grapple even mildly powered enemies isn't necessarily a bad thing.