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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: KnightKD on July 30, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
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Our group is still trying to get our heads around Aspects, and compelling Aspects in particular. Since examples seem to work the best for me, I'm simply going to give you two from our last session and see what people's opinions are.
Example 1. Agent Blair is standing in front of a group of angry shifters. Beside him, veiled, is Hanna, with a big ol' Norse hammer. After a few words, one of the shifter's, a big grizzly decides he's had enough of the small talk and charges Agent Blair. Hanna's player goes for a self-compel at this point, compelling her "Got your Back" aspect and stepping in front of the bear and playing whackamole to his big, furry noggin. In the process, she gains herself a fate point.
Hanna could have stayed veiled and remained unseen, but chose to limit her options and protect her friend. On the other hand, the player would have probably taken this action anyway, just because Hanna wanted to hit something with her big 'ol hammer. Proper use of a compel, or not?
Example 2. Later in the scene, after laying waste to lots of Gruffs, the bear finally starts to come around (it was a good hit with the hammer). By this point the group realizes that the bear really isn't the enemy. Hanna feels bad for the bear due to her Trouble Aspect, Two-ton Conscience. Once more going for a self-compel, she goes to work trying to administer first aid to the big lug, despite the fact that he might be looking for payback. Once again, Hanna gets a Fate point for the self-compel.
Choosing to get down and personally help the grizzly was a risky move, but again, this is something Hanna probably would have done anyway, being a doctor and all. Did she deserve the fate point?
Opinions appreciated.
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As I understand it from the book, yes. Self-Compels are entirely appropriate ways to get Fate points. You're being rewarded for playing in character, as it were.
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Example 1 - I'd say it's not a compel unless she takes the hit that would have hurt the other character, diving in front of the bear to save the Agent. Just hitting the Bear is fighting an enemy that they'd fight anyway, that's not a compel in my opinion.
Example 2 - If Hanna thought she'd be hit by the bear then I'd say yes that's a fair compel. In the same way, diving on a grenade is a massive self-compel even if it turns out to be a dud. If Hanna knew she wouldn't be attacked then it's not a compel, it's just being a doctor.
Others may see it differently though.
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My answer to both one and two are: maybe. Specifically, the ruling I'm going with for my game is that a compel causes a noticeable complication or setback for the character. Acting in accordance with your aspects when that doesn't get you into hot water (or at least uncomfortably warm water) is good play, but (imo) not generally worth fate points.
For example one - I probably wouldn't hand out a fate point by default - but if the player asked for one, I'd say "Sure!" - and then have the other shifters see this as an escalation of combat and pile in, or have the grizzly hold a grudge - something like "Being invisible was cheating!" or "I want a rematch!". The tricky part here is to make sure that the results of the compel are a direct consequence of the aspect that's being compelled. Another important factor is: what would have happen if she'd stayed veiled? If the situation was such that staying out of it wasn't a viable option, then no fate point.
For example two, again, I wouldn't hand out a fate point by default - but if the player wanted to self-compel, why, then that grizzly is willing and eager to resume battle immediately, interpreting her actions as threats instead of trying to help. ...On the other hand, if that's explicitly her trouble aspect, maybe I would've handed out a fate point (and made that grizzly hostile) by default. Depends on the grizzly, really.
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Playing in character should be a given. It should only count as a compel (self or otherwise) if it really does make things more complicated/worse for the PC's. For the first example, I wouldn't give that a fate point, but I might negotiate the compel to be something more dangerous, like Hanna taking the hit to protect Agent Blair, and giving a fate point for that. For the second example, its a maybe. If there was a real reason for the player to fear what the shifter might do, then the compel for the medical help would be appropriate. If they still thought the bear shifter was a bad guy, it would definitely be a good compel.
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Wyvern's answer is better than mine. Pretend I said that instead.
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A random further thought: The bear in example two doesn't even need to be hostile for that to be worth a fate point. I mean, imagine you're a were-grizzly; you value physical power and combat ability. Some girl takes you out in one hit, and then actually stops and helps you get back up? Picking up 1x amorous grizzly would definitely be worth a fate point of complication...
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By the book it says "An aspect can also allow you to gain more fate points by bringing complications and troubling circumstances into the character's life." YS p.100. So I'd have to agree the first example would not be a compel, but the second one would.
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I think the compel-worthy part of the first example is that the character was veiled and otherwise not in any personal danger (as far as I can tell).
OTOH, I cut my teeth on 7th Sea and quickly learned that being stingy with Drama Dice/Bennies/Style Dice/Fate Points/etc results in players hoarding points instead of using them, which takes some of the fun out of such games, at least for me.
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The first example would be more worth a compel in my opinion if there was a reason for her to stay veiled other than just staying out of Grizzlies way. Also, the other examples here, but that is one I didn't notice. If she was low on health, or trying to stay hidden for some other reason, though really revealing your face to an something as dangerous as a were-grizzly should just be worth a compel IMO, if you have other options unless you are just a gung-ho combat character.
DTF
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I would probably say yes to both, until I had a sense of how many FPs I was handing out and how many the PCs were using.
Taking an aspect that basically gives fate points for having a PC stamp still makes your life more complicated.
If you look at Harry's sheet he has "Chivalry isn't dead" which gets him into plenty of "PC" class trouble. If Hanna could have reasonably stayed out of combat, then it's worth a point.
At least that is what I would do until have a sense if I am heading to too many or too few points.
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I completely understand everyone's maybes.
I say yes to both. But at the moment, I'm all about encouraging the accruing and spending of fate points. The more you can enforce your players acting against their best metagame interests for fate points the better. It gets them used to the system. And you. And it makes for a more insane series of events, and creative problem creating on your part (see earlier comment about amorous werebear). So if I'M on the fence? I always lean towards "You Get a Cookie"
At least until it becomes a problem. Then I CLENCH THE FIST OF GM'ING AND THEY SHALL GO WANTING! MUAHAHAHAA..sorry.
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That. That is my reasoning entirely. Fate points are the engine of the system, after all. In both cases, the character wasn't required to do anything - she chose to, and acted in ways consonant with her Aspects. That's good enough for me.
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If my character had an aspect 'I like to hit stuff with a big hammer', he shouldn't get a fate point every time he hits something with a hammer. He'd get a fate point if he tried to fix a computer with a hammer, or tried to disarm an unexploded bomb with a hammer, or tried to persuade the police that he was innocent with a hammer.
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True enough. However, I look at it like this - if I, as GM, would compel them for the situation, I'm willing to give them the fate point.
In the OP's first example, had the player chosen to remain veiled, I as GM might well have compelled the Aspect myself. Thus, she gets a point.
In the second, given the situation of learning that the bear wasn't an enemy, I would almost definitely have compelled, if the player hadn't. So, again, she gets a point.
I'm not saying that every self-compel gets points, I'm just saying that the situations presented above, in my opinion, merit points.
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And remember these aren't XP that you are handing out. Your player's aren't going to become insanely more powerful for having 100 fate--its not like they can cash them in for an extra refresh, or even a skill point.
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Each fate point is the equivalent of unspent refresh. Fate points are the equivalent to two temporary skill points in anything you like, they can be used as a re-roll or to change the game itself with declarations.
It's the players job to roleplay and the GM's job to reward him when that roleplaying wouldn't normally benefit his character. The GM can also compel aspects to force a player in to an interesting situation.
You're right Stormraven, in that the first example might be a good chance to compel; but as wyvern pointed out further up, the compel would be to end up as the main target for all of the were-forms for being sneaky, or to make an enemy for life out of the were-bear. It wouldn't be a compel to hit the bear when it's blatantly something the player, not the character but the player, would want to do.
In the second example, you might well compel that situation but again it would guarantee a lot of trouble for the character. In the examples as read there was no significant trouble for the character either time.
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But that's the point. By granting those Fate points, the GM is basically saying 'okay, you get paid for what you wanted to do, but you also get the trouble that comes with it'. It's not too late, even a session on, to bring the trouble from a compel into the game.
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That's exactly the point Stormraven, in the first example Hanna wasn't in trouble, in the second Hanna might be in trouble. The examples as written probably don't deserve fate points but if they were changed so that the compel resulted in serious problems for Hanna then they'd be worth Fate points.
Still, everyone is entitled to run their game how they choose :)
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I am sorry, I have to disagree. Ending up in combat is by definition "in trouble".
If she wasn't conceivably going to be attacked and threw herself into combat, that works.
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That's exactly the point Stormraven, in the first example Hanna wasn't in trouble, in the second Hanna might be in trouble. The examples as written probably don't deserve fate points but if they were changed so that the compel resulted in serious problems for Hanna then they'd be worth Fate points.
Still, everyone is entitled to run their game how they choose :)
The thing is, a compel should only buy a character a certain amount of trouble. Too much trouble and they're no longer worth the bother.
That said, this all boils down to one fundamental question: "How often do you want your players to invoke their Aspects?" The correct balance between stingy and generous will depend entirely on how you (and the rest of the table, for that matter) answer that question.
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I am sorry, I have to disagree. Ending up in combat is by definition "in trouble".
If she wasn't conceivably going to be attacked and threw herself into combat, that works.
After a few words, one of the shifter's, a big grizzly decides he's had enough of the small talk and charges Agent Blair.
He's not charging Agent Blair to give him a big hug, the conflict had already become physical, if anything Hanna was ending it with a pre-emptive strike. Still at the end of the day, it's down to the GM how to handle compels and as neither of us are GMing the other person, our own opinions are pretty irrelevant.
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I think it all comes down to the player behind Hanna, and the reasoning for the aspects that were chosen. Good aspects are such fundamental parts of the character that sometimes a player won't even realize they're being compelled by them. My character, a Champion of God-ish (Custom template) fist-fighter, has received several fate points without me as the player even thinking about it. I just played the character as I had envisioned him and the points came naturally. So in that case, I'd say give Hanna a point for each of the aspects. Good character play should always be rewarded, in my opinion, as this game is so much more about role playing than it is about working the point system to get powerful.
On the other hand, sometimes aspects are chosen because players think they will give their characters lots of fate points, and were then shoehorned into the character build. If that be the case, don't give out fate points freely, because the person is just powergaming and isn't following the spirit of the game rules. This only applies to people that didnt' find a good way to change the character so that their chosen power aspect still fits properly.
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I think it all comes down to the player behind Hanna, and the reasoning for the aspects that were chosen. Good aspects are such fundamental parts of the character that sometimes a player won't even realize they're being compelled by them. My character, a Champion of God-ish (Custom template) fist-fighter, has received several fate points without me as the player even thinking about it. I just played the character as I had envisioned him and the points came naturally. So in that case, I'd say give Hanna a point for each of the aspects. Good character play should always be rewarded, in my opinion, as this game is so much more about role playing than it is about working the point system to get powerful.
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Playing in character is not compel worthy, in and of itself. Like CMEast earlier said, you don't get fate points every time you hit something with a hammer if you have the aspect "I like to hit things with my hammer". If you are using an aspect in a way that disadvantages you, its a compel. If you are using an aspect so that it helps you, it can an invoke which gives you a bonus, and you lose a fate point. If you are just playing in character without actually increasing the risk, its just playing in character. In the first example presented, it sounded like the player was making a tactical decision, that also happened to be in character. The fact that it was in character was good, but not inherently compel worthy, because the fight sounded pretty unavoidable at that point. It would have been a compel if the player had done something counter-tactical, like drop the veil without trying for an ambush to try to get the grizzly's attention, or just taking an unopposed hit. The second situation was borderline, because if the player honestly believed that giving medical attention was a risk, it was a compel, otherwise it wasn't.
On the other hand, sometimes aspects are chosen because players think they will give their characters lots of fate points, and were then shoehorned into the character build. If that be the case, don't give out fate points freely, because the person is just powergaming and isn't following the spirit of the game rules. This only applies to people that didnt' find a good way to change the character so that their chosen power aspect still fits properly.
Powergaming the aspects in this system is good roleplay. The type of aspects that make the characters more powerful are ones that are interesting, give a creative description of the character, and create very exploitable weaknesses for the character. I believe one of the developer's said as much on this forum before.
I think that giving out fate points based on who is playing the game 'right' is misguided. This is very much a game, and as long as people are following the rules and having fun, they isn't a 'wrong' way to play it.
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Wow there are alot more replies here than when I was asking about how many fate points should be tossed around in a given session. :)
I am the GM of this campaign, and our first 3 sessions nobody got any fate points. ( All trying to get used to the system.) I am personally having difficulty compelling the players, as I don't want to force them to any particular action, but I want them to have enough fate points to spend some if they want, so I figure self compels are an easy work around. ( And the book says go for it!)
I agree with most posters here, the initial example would not normally be given a fate point, the second would. Handed out the cookies anyways, just cause folks were short on em.
And you're all going to need them, very very soon ;)
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Each fate point is the equivalent of unspent refresh. Fate points are the equivalent to two temporary skill points in anything you like, they can be used as a re-roll or to change the game itself with declarations.
Two important particular's here. Firstly a single fate is only good for a single skill roll. It is a fleeting bonus to skill, not even long enough to be temporary.
Additionally unspent refresh can be cashed in for more POWER. You fire only caster needs a spell to suddenly heal someone using spirit? Have more than 1 unspent refresh--go ahead and upgrade yourself from a single element caster to a full spectrum caster. No amount of fate points will let you do that.
One fresh does get you one fate point when fates refresh, but refresh points are cosmically more powerful.
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I give Fate Points out like CANDY. I reiterate. Candy. It encourages them to use it more, they're powergamers who role play more now. They'll do in character stuff no matter what the cost to their character. If it's even mildly embarrassing, funny or damaging, I give'em points. And they spend'em! Left right and center they spend'em! It's a veritable fate point tornado.
I started doing this because we're all Star Wars D20 gamers mostly. And everyone was hoarding the things like Force Points (which are much rarer and much awesomer). And everyone was quiet and everyone was unsure what to do, and not being good at stuff. No longer.
So there ya go. For what it's worth.