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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Rechan on July 30, 2010, 02:31:31 AM

Title: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on July 30, 2010, 02:31:31 AM
I'm considering writing some urban fantasy, and what I want to write about is a main character who is not the badass. Not the guy with the kickass powers. He is the Useful Side Character, with a useful but not flashy skillset. Like a precognitive, or someone who is good at information gathering (like Morty the Ectomancer from The Dresden Files). Who... inadvertently gets dragged into the mess.

So I hit on an idea: a lawyer. Think someone who knows the Unseelie Acccords forwards and backwards, who knows the rules and politics that govern within the various Powers' organizations (the rules that faeries abide by among faeries or rules that members of the Red Court abides by within the Red Court).

The wall that I hit is: why would this person be needed?

Take the Accords as an example. If you're a signer (or a representative of the signer), then you don't need a lawyer; you speak for yourself, and you should understand how the Accords pertains to you and what you can do. If you're NOT a signer, then you don't really qualify. And if you're dealing within your own organization, why involve a third party?

Not to mention how much a third party knowing your system could be a threat.

Even if the character serves as a negotiator's role, or has the ability to Bind oaths/deals/agreements (think how the faerie have power over someone who owes them, now apply that to any who seek him out) in a form of agreed-to Geas, I still think that this character would not have a lot of Use in the supernatural world.

Does my idea have merit? Am I not seeing the forest for the trees? How do I make this idea work, or am I right in second guessing it? Help!


Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: snowbank on July 30, 2010, 02:58:31 AM
Kelley Armstrong has a lawyer character, Lucas Cortez, who does both human and supernatural law. He's a sorcerer by birth and heir to the strongest Cabal in the the U.S., but he sees the Cabals as evil and represents supes who have legal issues. His wife is a witch.

Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on July 30, 2010, 03:50:09 AM
Kelley Armstrong has a lawyer character, Lucas Cortez, who does both human and supernatural law. He's a sorcerer by birth and heir to the strongest Cabal in the the U.S., but he sees the Cabals as evil and represents supes who have legal issues. His wife is a witch.
I read the first story of that. Although I think he just deals with Cabal law, right?

The supernatural entities with legal issues, are they normal or supernatural law issues?

I really do like how the DF handles things, but as far as Law goes there, it's more like international law, with each Power being a nation unto itself. The Unseelie Accords are just basically treaties. So not a lot of room. So a body of Law governing the supernatural world beyond that... I don't know. That's bringing a lot of different things into it. A difference that might Hamper badasses going to town on each other.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: snowbank on July 30, 2010, 04:10:08 AM
I think it would depend on how your society was set up. If the laws were respected, or if might made right. In Armstrong's world, the supernatural society generally functions similarly to the human society. In a less structured environment, well, a bigger gun is a good argument also.  ;)
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on July 30, 2010, 06:41:47 AM
I think it would depend on how your society was set up. If the laws were respected, or if might made right. In Armstrong's world, the supernatural society generally functions similarly to the human society. In a less structured environment, well, a bigger gun is a good argument also.  ;)

In this case I'm thinking it's somewhere in the middle.

In all honesty I have no idea what I'm writing. As said, it just struck me as an interesting character - especially as one who operates as a side character, even if he's the main. I just know nothing about law. Or even the setting at this stage.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on July 30, 2010, 03:32:42 PM
I think the reason why a major supernatural power would need a lawyer is pretty much the same as why a major mundane CEO would need a lawyer; specialised technical knowledge of different complexities in different expert fields.

I don't see any inherent reason why Dark Lord Random Example who is a thousand years old and has spent most of that time studying dark magic is necessarily going to have the time or the temperament to be a legal whiz.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Landing on July 30, 2010, 05:28:52 PM
It sounds like a good idea, it is something just from looking at your post I would be interested in reading if it was a book. I have always liked supernatural world where the political landscape is realistically built up.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: snowbank on July 30, 2010, 05:55:33 PM
Charlaine Harris also has a lawyer character, he appears infrequently but I think the way the Fae is handled is more similar to TDF. The lawyer character works for the vampires, but the Fae are also occasionally involved in human/shifter/vampire actions.

Have you read the Southern Vampire books?
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Starbeam on July 30, 2010, 05:59:42 PM
I could be getting mixed up, but I believe the lawyer in the Southern vampire books is a demon.  Also, the Kitty Norville books has a lawyer character, I think introduced in the second or third book, and eventually becomes a more central character.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: MoSeS on July 30, 2010, 06:03:55 PM
At first when I read the idea I thought of Marcone, he is getting to know "the Unseelie Acccords forwards and backwards", yet he isn't one of the magical beings.

However he is significantly a different archetype from the pseudo sidekick type you mention. However there are certain semi-political parties already in play in fantasy like Dresden Files. The Merlin is basically a judge, the rest of the council is like a jury, and usually the defendant's represent themselves unless another wizard steps in to assist.

Basically there isn't much use for a lawyer character unless the lawyer has significant ability to actually protect your rights, however that is kind of already covered by Lea in DF.

In addition Peabody sort of played the lawyer type, I don't think it's uncommon for a lawyer to be involved in the finances and treasury of an organization.

However these are all still not the character type you describe, I think this lawyer character sounds like he would be somewhere on the same level as Vince the
(click to show/hide)
.

Then there is also BOB the Skull, I feel that he also provides much "legal advice" for Harry.

So in Dresden between Bob, McCoy, Rashid, Lea, Marcone, etc. I think Dresden has all his bases pretty much covered.

But I definitely think in a different story that your character would be very neccessary.

Kind of a Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson set-up it sounds like would work.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Aludra on July 30, 2010, 06:40:03 PM
I could be getting mixed up, but I believe the lawyer in the Southern vampire books is a demon.

You're not mixed up, but the lawyer is a fairy.  The Harris 'verse has plenty of text that alludes to the mechanics of fairies without spelling it out.  But basically a fairy can choose to be good (angelic) or bad (demonic) and implies that after a certain amount of time either becomes/behaves as a real angel or a real demon.  It also implies that Sookie is a trial run
(click to show/hide)
.  Again, Harris doesn't spell it out, but you can call the Lawyer either a fairy or a demon and still be correct.

Sorry MoSeS.  I didn't think it was a big enough plot point to spoiler, but my opinion isn't a good enough reason not to spoiler it.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: MoSeS on July 30, 2010, 06:48:43 PM
NOOOOOOOO! SPOILER ALERT Aludra .... I watch True Blood show but never read the books. Noooooo!!!!!

I just kind of glanced though and then looked away when I realized what I was reading, maybe I can forget it.   :'(
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: snowbank on July 30, 2010, 06:55:52 PM
NOOOOOOOO! SPOILER ALERT Aludra .... I watch True Blood show but never read the books. Noooooo!!!!!

I just kind of glanced though and then looked away when I realized what I was reading, maybe I can forget it.   :'(


Moses, the tv show is so very far from the books they are like different worlds with people who coincidentally have the same names. I think both are wonderful, but different. (Godric as Eric's maker made my head explode, but then so did Jason joining the Fellowship of the Sun.)

Star, I knew Mr. Cattaliades wasn't human, but wasn't sure exactly what flavor he was. Rechan didn't specify her proposed character's species.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Starbeam on July 30, 2010, 07:01:13 PM

Moses, the tv show is so very far from the books they are like different worlds with people who coincidentally have the same names. I think both are wonderful, but different. (Godric as Eric's maker made my head explode, but then so did Jason joining the Fellowship of the Sun.)

Star, I knew Mr. Cattaliades wasn't human, but wasn't sure exactly what flavor he was. Rechan didn't specify her proposed character's species.

Ditto this about the show. 

As far as the character, without having to go look it up, I think Sookie refers to him as demon.  And I'm just being lazy in not wanting to reach over and pull out my Kindle to search.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: MoSeS on July 30, 2010, 07:15:40 PM
Well what if I want to read the books.  :P Which I just might...........

It's cool, I had already heard that the TV show was significantly different.

I love the show, for me it's probably in my top ten TV shows of all time.

Ofcourse I don't watch that many shows, but I like stuff like:
Rome, Nip/Tuck, Heroes, Supernatural, Charmed, Highlander
that's almost the extent of shows I have watched from start to finish
(besides a couple comedies Arrested Developement, It's Always Sunny in Philidelphia)
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Paynesgrey on July 30, 2010, 08:27:46 PM
Why stop with just a lawyer when you can have a whole law firm?

http://www.cityofangel.com/characters/wolframHart.html
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: snowbank on July 30, 2010, 10:12:33 PM
As far as the character, without having to go look it up, I think Sookie refers to him as demon.  And I'm just being lazy in not wanting to reach over and pull out my Kindle to search.


Star, I join you in laziness on the cabana, ordering margaritas from the pool boy. I wasn't interested enough to look either.

 8)


PG, that firm is TOO EBIL.  >:(
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on July 31, 2010, 12:39:04 AM
I think the reason why a major supernatural power would need a lawyer is pretty much the same as why a major mundane CEO would need a lawyer; specialised technical knowledge of different complexities in different expert fields.

I don't see any inherent reason why Dark Lord Random Example who is a thousand years old and has spent most of that time studying dark magic is necessarily going to have the time or the temperament to be a legal whiz.
The issue I'm struggling with is not whether that knowledge would be easily expected for any entity out there.

The point is, take the DF for example: supernatural law isn't complex enough to require specializing in that knowledge. There's not a lot of fine print, legalize, obscure rules and so on to make it necessary. The political systems are easy enough to grok for the entities inside of them, and the rules are spelled out clearly in the Unseelie Accords to address individuals between organizations. The various organizations themselves work on fairly simplistic rules.

But making them overly complex would be... unsatisfying for me. After all, I'd rather the supernatural world manage to get by without needing a lawyer to do their business, but that such an expertise would be useful for some. Sort of like having the guy on your team who knows that if you tell a pirate "Parlay", they won't immediately stab you. ;) Or, if you're a mortal and you want to make a deal with a faerie, someone who knows how to phrase the deal without getting in over a barrel. The real benefit is for those outside of the system: mortals, entities without a boss and lack the power to be recognized as a Power.

Ultimately it's the difference between having to hire an accountant to do your taxes and handle your books versus asking a guy who knows cars very well to help you get a better deal on buying a new car.

The way I see it right now, this character is not a member of an Established Profession. There is not the Occult Bar Association. It's more like someone who has carved a niche out of playing the systems of the bigger, nastier things. So the issue for me is finding a way where the rules/laws are not too complex, but also there existing a useful place within that system that someone who knows all the rules could benefit as a consultant/negotiator/specialist.

I suppose one way to reconcile a simpler legal system would also be that politics are just as important as the letter of the law. And a character who knows not just how the rules work, but the why's (i.e. knowing who is the enemy of who in the White Court) could be just as useful if not moreso.

There's also the issue that, if such an individual has the knowledge of faerie loopholes, has his finger on the political landscapes of the various organizations, and is a small fry, why he would be allowed to live. That sort of knowledge is inherently dangerous. That and, as I start to grasp this, this amount of knowledge has power in and of itself, enough power that I am actually reluctant to hand the character. He's supposed to be relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, a non-threat, but political knowledge speaks of some significant resources and the capacity to take advantage of them.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Nickeris86 on July 31, 2010, 04:19:41 PM
i think your main hang up is that fact that your comparing everything to DF. no i love DF but its not the end all be all of urban fantasy. if you want a lawyer character to work with supernatural entities then you need to create a world in which such an idea is possible.

the best way that i can think of it working out is that the character works for a law firm that is more like the united nations of the supernatural for whatever city or country it takes place in. the firm is made up of being from every major power out there, but they swear loyalty to the firm and its ideals of neutrality, magically swearing it by their true name so it can't be broken or something like that. the possibilities are nearly endless for what could transpire.

watch law and order maybe that will give you some ideas.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on July 31, 2010, 05:06:35 PM
i think your main hang up is that fact that your comparing everything to DF. no i love DF but its not the end all be all of urban fantasy. if you want a lawyer character to work with supernatural entities then you need to create a world in which such an idea is possible.
DF is just easiest to use as examples here because everyone here is familiar with it. I could be using parallels to the Anita Blake universe.

Quote
the best way that i can think of it working out is that the character works for a law firm that is more like the united nations of the supernatural for whatever city or country it takes place in. the firm is made up of being from every major power out there, but they swear loyalty to the firm and its ideals of neutrality, magically swearing it by their true name so it can't be broken or something like that. the possibilities are nearly endless for what could transpire
In all honesty, a law firm is not what I'm looking for. The whole point is that this character is just a lone scholar who ends up getting dragged into big messes and has to try and use his knowledge to just get out alive, as opposed to kicking ass. And that whole part of being alone and often representing those outside of the powers is what has things so dangerous. This character typically keeps his head down, tries to appear out of notice and then he gets dragged into the middle of things.

A good example. This plot came to mind while doing the laundry:

A hitman (or spy, or whathaveyou) has unbeknown to him (and possibly his employer) assassinated a vampire. (Or likely just pissed it off by not succeeding in killing it). Now the hitman is on the run. He makes calls, and one of his contacts sends him to this lawyer as someone "who will know what to do". When he gets there, he begins talking, and the vampires show up. As they escape, the Hitman will now not let the lawyer go, because the Hitman thinks the guy can help him. Which he can, but of course the main character does not want to.

Part of the fun of this is to play with the "Kicking monster ass" genre, but the main character not only takes no part in the monster ass kicking, to have him hide/take cover during some of those asskickings.

(If you've seen the Zeppo episode of Buffy, or perhaps Diez's character in Knight and Day, you might see where I'm coming from with this character).
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: The Corvidian on July 31, 2010, 07:43:39 PM
Ever read Wolff & Byrd?
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on July 31, 2010, 09:59:50 PM
No, not before. Although looking at the covers on Amazon, the tone looks humorous rather than serious.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on August 01, 2010, 01:28:07 AM
Delete.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: jeno on August 01, 2010, 03:54:55 AM
psst, I'd lock that soon if I were you. Can't sell things that have already been posted on the web.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on August 01, 2010, 04:40:55 AM
psst, I'd lock that soon if I were you. Can't sell things that have already been posted on the web.
Can't I just go back and delete it in a few days?
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on August 01, 2010, 05:05:19 PM
Can't I just go back and delete it in a few days?

If you trust all the internet archiving services on the entire planet, and are willing to lie to any publisher who takes an interest in it, yes.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on August 01, 2010, 05:54:05 PM
Well there, it's removed.

Although I think the issue is silly. I've been published before and the publisher knew that I had posted the stories online and still ran the stories.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Apocrypha on August 01, 2010, 06:25:24 PM
That really depends on what kind of stories they were.  And who published you.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: MoSeS on August 02, 2010, 02:03:02 PM
i think your main hang up is that fact that your comparing everything to DF. no i love DF but its not the end all be all of urban fantasy. if you want a lawyer character to work with supernatural entities then you need to create a world in which such an idea is possible.

I know you already said your using DF as an example so that others here can relate, but it really isn't a good basis for comparison because most the angles you are exploring are already coverd by multiple characters in DF. i.e. Bob gives "legal" advice, McCoy reprensented Harry when he first used black magic, Lea protects Harry from other certain magical deals because he belongs(did) to her, etc.

Same goes for comparing any supernatural series. They usually cover the politics and lawyering in different ways.

I agree with Nickeris, I think you would need to create a new world where the lawyer character could function.

My question is, earlier you said the lawyer character would be a side-kick type character, but whose perspectiven will the story be told from? Omniscient narrator, first person (main character badass) or first person side-kick, or Second-person.  :P j/k I know you can't tell a story from second person perspective. And third person is pretty much the same as a narrator.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Gruud on August 02, 2010, 02:12:54 PM
Have you considered maybe using a bookseller, or similar?

That would give you plausible reasons for the character to know so much about such an obscure subject, and could give you various scenes where the main characters have to go off to see "old what's his name".

Who knows maybe even drag him/her out for the occasional field consultation.

Just a thought, as it seems this path would be less rigorous that the whole "legal" way of dealing with it.

Or, showing my age, do you recall a character from the old series "Bewitched" named Dr. Bombay?

Ostensibly a medical/witch doctor, he was the guy they trotted out whenever they needed to explain some obscure magical rule or what have you.

Patterned after the absent minded older chap who'd taveled the length and breadth of the British Empire, he'd picked up a load of knowledge along the way.

Unless you're just marrried to the lawyer angle, of coursew.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Nickeris86 on August 02, 2010, 08:01:48 PM
something to consider, is magic and the supernatural maine stream in your world, do people know it excites, or is it hidden from mortal eyes. your character would be greatly influenced by that.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Rechan on August 02, 2010, 08:18:27 PM
Oh, magic is definitely on the downlow. Hence, it's not an actual Profession. Part of what I'm thinking is that he has a gift, the ability to seal a compact. Sort of like how a wizard can say "I swear by my power" and it mean something metaphysically. Or at least the compact has a slight geas/compulsion against breaking it. So you have the metaphysical equivalent of a legally binding agreement. (This is inspired by the caste ability of the Eclipse solar exalt in the Exalted rpg) Because of this, I'm thinking that the Occult Lawyer thing is a family business, that I'm picturing he learned the Trade from his Grandfather.

Yes, characters have acted in official-type capacities, sure. But usually those are insiders doing things within their own bureaucracy. The only times you have people acting otherwise is when they represent their own organization (I.e. Harry as White Council to Bianca's ball, or representing the White Council in White Night.)

My question is, earlier you said the lawyer character would be a side-kick type character, but whose perspectiven will the story be told from? Omniscient narrator, first person (main character badass) or first person side-kick, or Second-person.  :P j/k I know you can't tell a story from second person perspective. And third person is pretty much the same as a narrator.
First person.

When I say he's a "Side-Kick" character, imagine of Buffy the Vampire was told from Giles, Willow or Xander's perspective. When violence occurs, usually the latter two take the sidelines, and rarely does Giles really mix it up. Now, imagine if the story put a little more importance on the knowledge part of it, or the magic part (in later seasons' Willows case). When these characters' expertise comes up, they are the specialist, and they would be the protagonist, but not necessarily the Hero in every situation. Even if you took the DF, put it in Murphy's perspective: she's not the one doing the heavy hitting; she's backup, helpful but not the heaviest hitter, the most influential on the team, in a crew of more powerful supernatural types.
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: MoSeS on August 03, 2010, 01:48:28 PM
something to consider, is magic and the supernatural maine stream in your world, do people know it excites, or is it hidden from mortal eyes. your character would be greatly influenced by that.

Of course we know it excites, that's why we read Dresden Files.  :P
Title: Re: Plausibility check: Lawyer of the Occult
Post by: Nickeris86 on August 04, 2010, 02:43:34 AM
Of course we know it excites, that's why we read Dresden Files.  :P

*face palm*