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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Mal_Luck on July 22, 2010, 01:01:28 AM

Title: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Mal_Luck on July 22, 2010, 01:01:28 AM
I'm currently looking into rules about Thuamaturgy (I finally have a reason to do so beyond simple crafting). For taking consequences to power rituals, what happens in the case of spellcasters with Recovery Powers?

Example: A Spellcaster has Great Lore (+4) and Supernatural Recovery, he decides to make a 10 shift potion. While making the potion he decides to take a Mild (+2) and Moderate (+4) Physical Consequence to help pay for the effect, but because of Supernatural Recovery he is fully healed at the end of the scene.

This Spellcaster just got a 10 shift potion effect for the low, low price of one enchanted item slot.


I may have missed something in the rules, but is this just one of those situations where the rules can be badly abused?
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Morgan on July 22, 2010, 01:19:36 AM
What exact consequences is he taking? If he is sacrificing himself say with his own blood, or maybe scarification, or even if he is just fasting for a long time or taking the exhausted consequence then yeah it's a bit cheesy that he could get rid of all those consequences in a moment or a scene. My solution would be to say that with sacrifice especially maybe it bypasses their Recovery, because it is being used to power a magical effect and until that magic is released the consequences have to be recovered in the normal amount of time.

But then again maybe it's just that awesome to be a Wizard or Practitioner with Superhuman Recovery. They spent the refresh on it, let them exploit those loop holes and be awesome. A really interesting side note to this is the Wizard Wolverine using this with his Evocations to soak up the backlash on uber powerful evocations.

I think it would really come down to intent and execution on the part of the player as to how I'd deal with this potential problem.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: luminos on July 22, 2010, 01:22:00 AM
A nifty idea is that you can't have stunts or powers to help you recover from self-inflicted wounds.  This is already covered by the makers of the game who have said you can't have armor or protection against stress taken from spellcasting, so its not much of a stretch to say recovery powers won't help either.  Also, how the heck did a wizard get supernatural recovery?
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Mal_Luck on July 22, 2010, 01:24:11 AM
Hence why I said spellcaster and not Wizard :P

Thank you for the answers so far, I was worried about potential abuse.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Morgan on July 22, 2010, 01:29:26 AM
One of those Sponsored Magic, Emissary of Power, or Item of Power deals probably. I've got a demon possessed character in one of my convention games with both Sponsored Hellfire and Supernatural Recovery. I was just never devious enough to think about putting the two abilities together and what that might mean. Granted it's a balls out, gonzo action movie type of scenario anyway so even if they go nuts with this loop hole I think it would be alright, but it might be one of those things you have to arbitrate for your home games if it really becomes an issue. And having the no armor against casting stress seems like a good way to explain why it isn't allowed.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Doc Nova on July 22, 2010, 01:46:28 AM
Alternatively, if you did decide to allow it, there's no reason why you couldn't have the bad guys show up just as the character in question is putting the finishing touches on his potion, is all wounded and not yet recovered, and let the fun play out from there. 

Ultimately, however, if the action the character is taking is harmful to the fun and story at the table, simply don't allow it.  The FATE system, being so player-narrative, is very easily exploited and trucks could be driven through potential loopholes.  While they're fun to come up with and talk about, implementing them is a different story.

I don't mind the notion of some hyper-regenerating character shoving a knife through his own hand to spook the crap out of hoodlum, knowing full well he'll recover quickly, but that would be in the theme of the character and story, not smacking a rule loophole just so they can WIN!

Anyway...just my two Denarians...

Doc
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 22, 2010, 03:07:16 AM
What's wrong with a Wizard having Supernatural Recovery, I ask you? A powerful bloodline-anchored ritual done by an ancestor could provide it, he could wield an Item of Power granting him such regeneration, or he could be a multi-template character.

But for a bit more of an on topic answer, I would rule that consequences inflicted to power magic cannot be healed by any power the character that accepted them possesses. Sacrifice has a mystical potency in the Dresdenverse, and it is not a sacrifice to bled a couple drops of blood after a moment of pain, then be fine.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 22, 2010, 04:51:31 AM
I'm going to go by the letter of the rules:

Sacrificing Consequences like that works fine for ritual magic (aka Thaumaturgy), but Potions really don't work like that (they use the Item Creation rules, which are different). So you can do this...but not in the midst of combat, or when surprised.

So, in any circumstance you could use Declarations. Which don't necessarily take any longer, and lack the side effect of making you vulnerable in the midst of the ritual.


What makes this potentially broken again?
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 22, 2010, 05:37:02 AM
I'm not arguing broken so much as horribly jarring from a setting and thematic perspective. I have no idea if it's broken, although I suspect an extended ritual involves using multiple minor consequences over and over would shatter the system (or at least most games) to bits.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Mal_Luck on July 22, 2010, 06:44:30 AM
I was under the impression self-consequences could be used for Potion effects, since you can boost potions using invocation of aspects.

But rereading again I suppose there is a difference between invoking aspects and taking consequences. As I said in my first post, this was the first time that I had seriously sat down to read the rules and I may have inadvertently lumped all forms of preparation together.

Nothing is broken then, I was wrong.  ;D

Well at least for potions, other rituals might have some issues.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Tsunami on July 22, 2010, 07:10:51 AM
I'm not arguing broken so much as horribly jarring from a setting and thematic perspective. I have no idea if it's broken, although I suspect an extended ritual involves using multiple minor consequences over and over would shatter the system (or at least most games) to bits.
The Consequence is reduced for purposes of recovery, that does not mean that the consequence slot is free instantly.
The Slot is still occupied, and the consequence is still there until the end of the scene. Unless you use the shrug off option and that only works a limited number of times per scene.
So, since a ritual is one scene, you can't take a mild consequence, have it disappear instantly and then take another.

Taking that into account i would not worry about balance to much. It's not that big a deal.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Wordmaker on July 22, 2010, 07:55:23 AM
I agree that it's powerful to be able to produce such a strong effect so easily. However it's not outside the scope of what any wizard can do with time to invoke Aspects, skip scenes, and roll for declarations. A character with Supernatural Recovery has sunk a lot of Refresh into that power, so it's appropriate that they get a break on the time taken to prepare such a ritual.

Basically, unless there's something preventing a wizard from taking the time to prepare, there's very little that can stop them performing most rituals.

Now, if there is a problem which the PCs need to address quickly, who's to say there's time for a ritual at all? If you want to off-set the advantage of time that a spellcaster would have, remember that scenes have no set game-time length. If they want to perform a powerful ritual, unless they have appropriate Sponsored Magic, there may well not be enough time to perform the ritual to begin with.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on July 23, 2010, 01:09:16 AM
Another option would be to tie the spell duration to consequences. When you recover from the consequences that you sacrificed then the spell ends.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 23, 2010, 03:38:42 AM
The Consequence is reduced for purposes of recovery, that does not mean that the consequence slot is free instantly.
The Slot is still occupied, and the consequence is still there until the end of the scene. Unless you use the shrug off option and that only works a limited number of times per scene.
So, since a ritual is one scene, you can't take a mild consequence, have it disappear instantly and then take another.

Taking that into account i would not worry about balance to much. It's not that big a deal.

Rituals are explicitly stated not to be limited to a single scene of prep time. Taking extra scenes is a listed method of reaching the Complexity. And the Declarations made are generally described as separate "mini-scenes" as well. Assuming your GM imposes a maximum of one scene for your ritual every three hours (a steeper restriction than I would impose normally), a character with Inhuman Recovery can pull 18 shifts out of that power alone in an average workday, and still have a couple of hours to relax before getting a solid night's rest.

--First, inflict a minor consequence on yourself. Shrug it off. 2 shifts.
--Inflict a second minor consequence on yourself. It be removed at the end of the scene, by being reduced below mild. 2 shifts
--Inflict a moderate consequence on yourself. It begins recovery immediately, and is treated as if it were Mild, removing itself at the end of the next scene. 4 shifts (End Scene)
--Skip a scene. 1 Shift. All Consequence slots are cleared. (End Scene)
--Repeat above steps. You have now grabbed +18 Complexity in twelve hours. You may add your Lore to this and begin channeling the majority of effects immediately. If you're willing to stay up late, you can go up to 27+Lore shifts without much trouble, which is often enough for an outright Death Spell, Victor Sells style.

Oh, and Inhuman Recovery helps you stay awake longer too. Spend a couple days opening and reopening wounds, and you will be able to level a city block or two, bind (not contain. Bind!) lesser heavyweights to your will, or unravel the outer wards of Edinburgh.

And that's just with Inhuman Recovery. Upgrade it to Supernatural recovery, and you throw around nigh-infinite complexity rituals, and do it relatively quickly.

A character with Mythic Recovery, Thaumaturgy, and a week of time off could pull off a Ritual easily exceeding 100 complexity. That's enough to break through a maximized Legendary Discipline roll and Take Out (fully consequences bypassed) a character who has the Mental Equivalent of Mythic Toughness with FIFTY FOUR shifts to spare for things like extended duration. I suspect Mab herself could be enslaved to the with of such a ritual, at least for a while.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: wyvern on July 23, 2010, 04:05:43 AM
And, as GruffAndTumble just demonstrated, taking consequences as prep work is totally ludicrous if you've got recovery powers.  Instead, I'd suggest that if you're spending consequences on upping the complexity, all such consequences must be extracted during the casting - which, by definition, is a single scene.  Now, that still means someone with recovery powers can add a "cheap" six complexity by taking a minor and moderate consequence that'll clear quickly - but if they get interrupted or miss a control roll, they'll be in rather worse shape than someone who played things safer.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Doc Nova on July 23, 2010, 04:08:44 AM
Naw, not broken at all...

I do hope the sarcasm is clearly heard there.

Well illustrated Gruff.

Well, I go back to my original statement of fun and story and will go with the simple ruling of "nope"!
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Belial666 on July 23, 2010, 06:51:34 AM
On the other hand, you also have evocation or channeling, don't you? Say, you can also do six-shift evocations, right?
A six-shifts maneuer spell automatically applies TWO aspects on a non-opposing target (i.e. you). And as you have a 4-box mental stress track, you can do it four times per scene.
So a wizard uses his own magic to apply EIGHT aspects on himself, which he then tags in the ritual or potion for +16 shifts. Enjoy. (technically, you have to tag the aspects immediately upon casting, not all at once. But that's not a problem; rituals don't have to be continious)


So... recovery powers for rituals? Who needs them?
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 23, 2010, 08:10:48 AM
I didn't know a spell maneuver could add a second aspect. Page ref?

Also, the book's state that Evocation can leave behind a magical signature that interferes with the delicate nature of most thaumaturgical rituals.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Nomad on July 23, 2010, 09:21:03 AM
My 2 Cents;
I know I am probably wrong (rule wise) but I would treat the whole ritual as 1 scene no matter how long it takes and how many breaks you have.  The guy (or gal) that is holding the ritual together needs to focus on the ritual full time so there will be a drain even while resting and I don't really think you can pause a spell and go to sleep (Unless the player comes up with a good explanation; A construction like Little Chicago or The Quartz Pocket Nuke can be done in stages but a death spell can'T ). I would treat Recovery powers as extenders to maximum rituel time. 


Here is a funny thought though, Suppose you have a caster and a helper, ie "sacrifice" with recovery. How many times can you "sacrifice/torture" her during a day to fuel your spell ?
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: toturi on July 23, 2010, 09:23:42 AM
Rituals are explicitly stated not to be limited to a single scene of prep time. Taking extra scenes is a listed method of reaching the Complexity. And the Declarations made are generally described as separate "mini-scenes" as well. Assuming your GM imposes a maximum of one scene for your ritual every three hours (a steeper restriction than I would impose normally), a character with Inhuman Recovery can pull 18 shifts out of that power alone in an average workday, and still have a couple of hours to relax before getting a solid night's rest.

--First, inflict a minor consequence on yourself. Shrug it off. 2 shifts.
--Inflict a second minor consequence on yourself. It be removed at the end of the scene, by being reduced below mild. 2 shifts
--Inflict a moderate consequence on yourself. It begins recovery immediately, and is treated as if it were Mild, removing itself at the end of the next scene. 4 shifts (End Scene)
--Skip a scene. 1 Shift. All Consequence slots are cleared. (End Scene)
--Repeat above steps. You have now grabbed +18 Complexity in twelve hours. You may add your Lore to this and begin channeling the majority of effects immediately. If you're willing to stay up late, you can go up to 27+Lore shifts without much trouble, which is often enough for an outright Death Spell, Victor Sells style.

Oh, and Inhuman Recovery helps you stay awake longer too. Spend a couple days opening and reopening wounds, and you will be able to level a city block or two, bind (not contain. Bind!) lesser heavyweights to your will, or unravel the outer wards of Edinburgh.

And that's just with Inhuman Recovery. Upgrade it to Supernatural recovery, and you throw around nigh-infinite complexity rituals, and do it relatively quickly.

A character with Mythic Recovery, Thaumaturgy, and a week of time off could pull off a Ritual easily exceeding 100 complexity. That's enough to break through a maximized Legendary Discipline roll and Take Out (fully consequences bypassed) a character who has the Mental Equivalent of Mythic Toughness with FIFTY FOUR shifts to spare for things like extended duration. I suspect Mab herself could be enslaved to the with of such a ritual, at least for a while.
This is great! I'll suggest this to my players and encourage them to use it.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: CMEast on July 23, 2010, 10:30:37 AM
Sacrifices should involve some sort of real sacrifice. I wouldn't allow a wizard power for trimming his nails or cutting his hair and I wouldn't allow a wizard with mythic regeneration extra power for chopping his hand off, or any other consequence which won't exist a scene later.

As to prep time taking longer than a scene, I agree that you can spend multiple scenes chasing rare ingredients. When it comes to drawing power from sacrifice, I think that should be done in the same scene as the ritual itself and the ritual should only take one scene.

Also, the rules actually talk about skipping scenes rather than taking extra scenes, or using declarations to declare 'mini-scenes' like 'laying out the circle' or 'getting porn for bob'. These aren't genuine additional scenes, just an extension of the main scene for the ritual.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 23, 2010, 10:37:38 AM
@Nomad: It's possible to interpret the ritual preparation as a single scene by some readings, and while I wouldn't, I won't argue against it as a valid point of view. But even in a single scene, allowing consequences that last a scene at most will lead to +6/+10/+16 shifts, depending on your Recovery level. It's hideously strong mechanically, and as CMEast discusses, thematically inappropriate.

@Toturi: Are you trying to be sarcastic? I can't imagine any GM willingly inflicting this on themselves, but sarcasm is not something that typed words carry well. It's generally bad forum etiquette to make sarcastic comments without some kind of major indicator of intent.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Tsunami on July 23, 2010, 11:11:07 AM
As to prep time taking longer than a scene, I agree that you can spend multiple scenes chasing rare ingredients. When it comes to drawing power from sacrifice, I think that should be done in the same scene as the ritual itself and the ritual should only take one scene.

Also, the rules actually talk about skipping scenes rather than taking extra scenes, or using declarations to declare 'mini-scenes' like 'laying out the circle' or 'getting porn for bob'. These aren't genuine additional scenes, just an extension of the main scene for the ritual.
^this, I totally agree with.

And now my thoughts (because i wrote them down before i read CM's post *g*):

The mini scenes are a seperate thing from taking consequence. And Skipping scenes doesn't give you time to recover, you skipped those scenes, so they don't count for you.
Consequences would be something you'd need to take or inflict while actually casting the Ritual. It's the quick and dirty method that requires no additional time. Like when Harry poured some of his blood out to call forth the Spirit of Demonreach, or when Victor sells drew power from the Beckitts (mental consequences here, but still).

Otherwise it makes absolutely no sense.

And since casting the ritual is one scene, no matter how long it takes, you would not be able to recover while casting.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: toturi on July 23, 2010, 11:34:42 AM
@Toturi: Are you trying to be sarcastic? I can't imagine any GM willingly inflicting this on themselves, but sarcasm is not something that typed words carry well. It's generally bad forum etiquette to make sarcastic comments without some kind of major indicator of intent.
Oh no, I was not being sarcastic. I do not see this as inflicting something on myself. The game isn't GM vs players. If I can find something that helps my players overcome my antagonists, I certainly will point them towards it.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: GoldenH on July 23, 2010, 01:23:05 PM
I don't see any problem doing this, since high Conviction/etc give you extra Minor Consequences instead of stress boxes, and all you need is an excuse to start healing - hit the hospital or have a bud around to do first aid after doing your bloody ritual and you're all back to normal. What's the big deal, having Supernatural Recovery? You can use your single moderate consequence? pfft. Being able to heal some of your consequences during a turn? pretty nifty - but not more nifty than just having more consequences via a Stunt. Being able to heal without an excuse? It's okay but not game breaking.

I've seen plenty of movies or whatever where the BBEG powers a dark ritual by chopping off his hand or opening up his arm only to have it heal a moment later. Psychic or Social trama would be awesome too. All the consequence is, is justification for another maneuver.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Belial666 on July 23, 2010, 02:19:05 PM
Wizards don't need an excuse to start healing: they automatically heal given time, courtesy of their Wizard's Constitution.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: GoldenH on July 23, 2010, 02:38:58 PM
sure but how much time? you could say you only start healing a day after the injury and that'd fit the text just as well.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Belial666 on July 23, 2010, 03:58:10 PM
They heal in the standard recovery time depending on the consequence:

Mild is until the end of the next scene
Moderate is until the end of the next session
Severe is until the end of the next scenario (or few sessions, as you prefer)
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Doc Nova on July 23, 2010, 04:12:51 PM
Ahh, now that strikes as a possible alternative.  Since the recovery powers stitch up physical ills quickly, if the wizard were to take psychic or social consequences due to self-sacrifice...hmmmm...interesting.  They wouldn't reco er as quickly, so the sacrifice would still be a sacrifice and not a cheat.  That might be a solid solution, at least for my game table should this come up.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 23, 2010, 06:40:13 PM
@Tsunami: I can see limiting Consequence taking to the scene in which you cast the spell, even under my interpretation of the rules. That, combined with the potential for rituals in situations where the next (or even the same) scene is combat could mean Recovery powers don't break ritual casting.

@Toturi: I never once advocated adversarial GMing. Please do not ascribe opinions to me. I expressed the opinion that allowing a starting character the power to pull infinite complexity rituals together and solve any task in the entire game was broken--and I don't mean mechanically. I meant it breaks the story and makes things not fun. However, if you enjoy the idea of your players enslaving Mab, Titania, and Ferrovax, and using them to solve all their problems without lifting a finger post-binding, and your players like it too...more power to you. The game is there to have fun. However, given most of us paid money so we could have rules to guide our fun, I think it is not unreasonable to assume that the majority of us finds the concept of making use of bizarre loopholes so that you never need to bother rolling dice past the first session a little less than ideal, as I do.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: toturi on July 24, 2010, 12:23:01 AM
@Toturi: I never once advocated adversarial GMing. Please do not ascribe opinions to me. I expressed the opinion that allowing a starting character the power to pull infinite complexity rituals together and solve any task in the entire game was broken--and I don't mean mechanically. I meant it breaks the story and makes things not fun. However, if you enjoy the idea of your players enslaving Mab, Titania, and Ferrovax, and using them to solve all their problems without lifting a finger post-binding, and your players like it too...more power to you. The game is there to have fun. However, given most of us paid money so we could have rules to guide our fun, I think it is not unreasonable to assume that the majority of us finds the concept of making use of bizarre loopholes so that you never need to bother rolling dice past the first session a little less than ideal, as I do.
I never once said you advocated adversarial GMing to you or anyone else. Please do me the same courtesy of not ascribing opinions to me. The complexity of the rituals are not infinite. There is a finite limit to them. It does not break the story or make it not fun. It breaks the assumption most people have that a game has to be a "challenge" to be fun, I was always puzzled by the concept that the players have to struggle mightily to overcome the obstacles the GM puts in their path to have fun. Remember that there will be other NPCs out there that could have the same combinations(if not more) of powers as the PCs - Mab, Titania and Ferrovax are certainly prime candidates. The game certainly is to have fun. Thus given that we have paid money so that we have rules to guide our fun, I think it is certainly reasonable to assume that using the rules as an enabler for fun is very much the ideal.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: GruffAndTumble on July 24, 2010, 01:16:14 AM
I apologize if I was reading too much into your comment about "GM vs. Players." And, as I've said, what works for you is gravy. However, in my experience, and in the experience of the vast majority of gamers I've talked to, ultimate power is boring. Stories thrive on conflict, after all, and an "I win" button is not conducive to that.

You can make the argument that the PCs are not the only ones who can press the I Win button, but then all you've done is make someone else the winner in a game that shouldn't have one. I'm a long time fan of Exalted (if you're not familiar with it, the gist is that every character is a demigod originally incarnated to kill immortal chthonic entities from before time began), so trust me when I say I have experience trying to balance powerful PCs versus powerful opposition. It's hard.

Furthermore, while one of the PCs is busy binding Mab to be the waitress at his favorite bar, what do you do with the PCs who didn't make a character capable of breaking the game over their knee? Give the ritualist two or three opportunities to do his thing at most, and he'll be more powerful than the entire party combined, which tends to cause no end of ill-will between players. The spotlight should go on everyone equally, and it should definitely not highlight people who prioritize mechanical strength over those who just want to tell a story (which, as mentioned above, revolves around a valid conflict).

Just to be clear though, I'm not trying to stop you from giving this concept a whirl if you really want. This post is, if you'll forgive my pretensions, sort of a Public Service Announcement about ideas for GMing that are usually bad for most groups. I have no interest in forcing people to subscribe to my views, but I have been GMing for years, and if I'd been able to give my earlier self this advice, it would have helped a lot. Take from this precisely as much as is helpful for you to have fun. As the Chaucer has written*, "take the wheat, and let the chaff be still."

*Technically, he wrote "taketh the fruyt, and lat the chaf be stille." But I wasn't sure how many people on the forums knew Middle English.  :D
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: ryanroyce on July 24, 2010, 02:31:15 AM
 Eh, it's effortlessly easy for the GM and the other players to make the mage regret this "clever" strategy.  All they have to do is strictly enforce the "skipping a scene" option, by which I mean that the rest of players actually play the game while the mage is relegated to the sidelines and watching them have fun.  One session of that and most players will quickly realize the errors of their ways.  Those who don't might need more creative persuasion.  :D

 IOW, the trick can be easily abused, yes, but it is also easily controlled without resorting to the nerf bat or the ban hammer.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: toturi on July 24, 2010, 02:38:15 AM
I think that in any such game, some combinations are more optimal than others and they can be much more powerful than any combinations of similar value. I accept and support this. In most games I have seen, there is no such thing as infinite or ultimate power and no such thing as an I Win button and even with this particular combination of power, I have yet to see it as ultimate power or an I Win button. I certainly wish there was a Pun Pun in this game. Stories thrive on conflict, but that conflict doesn't mean that the characters need to have the odds against them.
I have played Exalted and have GMed Scion since it came out, and trust me when I say that I have much experience GMing for ultimate power PCs whose power levels are off the charts; at the highest levels, the PCs are not just demigods, they are the gods themselves. It is quite easy. You have to accept that your NPCs will lose and whole armies of your titanspawn will die to the PCs.
You mean what are the other PCs going to do while one of them is busy pissing Mab off by binding her to be the submissive in his favorite SM parlor? There are many things that those other PCs can be doing, like getting as far away from ground zero as possible.
I encourage my players to build characters that are both mechanically as strong as possible and have a good background story. While ideally the spotlight should go on everyone equally, it is not going to be so practically speaking. The person who put the most effort and skill into crafting his character should have the spotlight more than someone who simply cobbles together a character and expects to tell a story with it. The story to be told doesn't have to be one that revolves around a conflict, as mentioned above, where the odds are against them.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: Doc Nova on July 24, 2010, 04:01:16 AM
I've got to chime in with Gruff on this one.  The whole thing bodes escalation and exclusion, in my opinion, neither of which leads to a very fun game.  I'd also have to argue the point about a character like this (it was not said directly, rather implied) had the "most effort and skill" put into it.  There wasn't a lot of effort and skill, only combining two, already very powerful, abilities.  There was no background, no concept.  Just, again, from my vantage point, mega-ritualist.

While I agree that not every conflict needs to be weighted against the PCs, this sort of thing only sets up a series of ever-escalating "one-ups" that, in my experience, generally leads to tedium, frustration, and a game that isn't a whole heck of a lot of fun.

Additionally, I think PCs have far more of a "we did it!" feeling when things are "tough" (not necessarily stacked against them) rather than solved by one character built around this sort of loophole.
Title: Re: Recovery Powers and Taking Consequences for Rituals
Post by: blues.soldier on August 02, 2010, 08:23:52 PM
I think this is the kind of weapon I'd put in a badguy's hands, but be VERY careful about it getting into a PC's. And even for a villain, the +100 shifts is more than excessive.

Now, a storyline about stopping a warlock who uses blood to power his spells from becoming physically immortal... that's a good story.

I'm normally a "what the PCs can do, so can the NPCs", but I think the game-breaking nature of it puts it in the category of osmething that should be used to scare the PCs, not used BY the PCs.