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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: YuriPup on July 17, 2010, 04:14:19 PM
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"These aren't the Droids you're looking for."
"Move along."
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I would have to say the jedi mind trick is a blatent violation of the laws of magic...someone needs to get the wardens.
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I think it's a grey area, it's not so much mind control as it is a retroactive veil. If he'd ordered them to never look for another droid again then that would definitely break the 4th law.
In the same way, setting some one on fire isn't breaking the 1st law unless they happen to die from it.
... Not the best analogy but you get my point :)
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"These aren't the Droids you're looking for."
"Move along."
He totally mind controlled that guy. Obi gets snicker-snacked. Good thing he doesn't actually have to worry about the Laws, then...
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I think I remember Harry commenting that's how some of the 4th law breakers start out. I can't remember who he was talking to, probably Murphy.
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Yeah, that's definitely a 4th Law violation in the DF universe...but the Star Wars universe has very different rules.
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Yeah, that's definitely a 4th Law violation in the DF universe...but the Star Wars universe has very different rules.
Dresdenverse > starwarsverse.
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Even if the jedi did not like to have people do that he was the last jedi, other then yoda who was alive (other then vader, who wasnt a jedi, he had fallen, some say he was just a dark jedi, but he was obivously a sith since he was knighted by another sith and given a tittle, so.,.. yeah. and im pretty sure that jedi can do that if it is for a good cause.
In game tense yeas he broke the laws.
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Proven Guilty - US Paperback p.33
“It’s the Fourth Law of Magic,” I said. “You aren’t allowed to control the mind of another human. But… hell, it’s one of the first things a lot of these stupid kids try—the old Jedi mind trick. Sometimes they start with maybe getting homework overlooked by a teacher or convincing their parents to buy them a car. They come into their magic when they’re maybe fifteen or so, and by the time they’re seventeen or eighteen they’ve got a full -grown talent.”
So Yeah, in the DFU he broke the Law...
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Totally a violation of the 4th Law...but even if Obi-Wan existed in the D-verse, it's not like the Wardens could do anything about it...Obi would mop the floor with them.
However, a type of veil that obscures not vision but recognition is certainly viable and legal, I think. Instead of veiling yourself, you veil their mind. No rearranging, no invasion, no tweaking. Cocoon their mind and set the cocoon's filter to suit your needs. As long as you don't directly rewire or rewrite their brain or mind, or otherwise do anything directly or indirectly invasive, you're not violating the 4th Law. The Wardens won't care and will lop your head off anyway, but at least you wouldn't have to worry about the spiritual consequences to your soul. I imagine with Molly's talent for both neuromancy AND veils, she'd be absolutely stellar at such a spell.
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Totally a violation of the 4th Law...but even if Obi-Wan existed in the D-verse, it's not like the Wardens could do anything about it...Obi would mop the floor with them.
However, a type of veil that obscures not vision but recognition is certainly viable and legal, I think. Instead of veiling yourself, you veil their mind. No rearranging, no invasion, no tweaking. Cocoon their mind and set the cocoon's filter to suit your needs. As long as you don't directly rewire or rewrite their brain or mind, or otherwise do anything directly or indirectly invasive, you're not violating the 4th Law. The Wardens won't care and will lop your head off anyway, but at least you wouldn't have to worry about the spiritual consequences to your soul. I imagine with Molly's talent for both neuromancy AND veils, she'd be absolutely stellar at such a spell.
I´d say that is incorrect. If you´ve read Changes it would seem likely that the black staff would drop Obi-Wan dead before he could do anything at all.
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I´d say that is incorrect. If you´ve read Changes it would seem likely that the black staff would drop Obi-Wan dead before he could do anything at all.
Yeah, even going by earlier books, Wardens could casually disable most Jedi with magic, then behead them. Well, if they're the ones on offense anyway. I mean, Jedi are scary...but Wizards are on a whole different level of badass if they have prep-time to work their magic.
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I mean, Jedi are scary...but Wizards are on a whole different level of badass if they have prep-time to work their magic.
I alwys figured the trick against a Jedi would be area/spray weapons, something that they are not going to be able block all of it at once with just a single "blade". A unrestrained fire blast like Harry's should only lost a bit of its effectiveness and penetrate to kill. for that matter I always figured that a shotgun should do the trick, and look how common those are in the books.
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Well, the reason Jedi can do that whole parrying thing is actually precognition...so one assumes that vs. something like that they'd dodge rather than block. But there's only so much you can effectively dodge, and I do agree with you in general.
If I were statting up Jedi for the DFRPG (as I mentioned in another thread), I'd give them a power allowing them to use Discipline for defense on Physical atacks, and to attack with a lightsaber (-1 total, based on the cost of A Few Seconds Ahead), and probably Channeling (Spirit) for actual Force power use. I might tack on modified versions of Guide My Hand and/or Righteousness based on Discipline as well.
But in any case, none of that's really close to enough to take most full Wardens head-to head.
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Jedi can still use their force powers, and you can do vastly more with it than what most games have included (one reason why I'd like to see Star Wars in Fate), and if Wardens get to keep their swords, then Obi-Wan gets to keep his lightsaber. Wardens can't sneak up on him, can't outmaneuver him, he can still deflect spells with the Force, and their swords are useless as offensive or defensive weapons against a lightsaber.
Obi couldn't take on more than a couple at a time, maybe only one, but one-on-one...Obi would own them. He's faster, smarter, precognitive and has a weapon they couldn't handle safely that can literally destroy their swords and they can't shield against it. Then he's got a broadly useful form of telekinesis that they can't do anything about unless he uses it offensively, which he won't do. Thaumaturgy won't help them, because if they get prep time, he gets time. He'd sense that it'd be a bad idea before doing anything that might allow them access to a connection with him, and he'd sense any kind of "landmine" spells before getting anywhere near them. Area spells can be dodged, and Jedi can do so earlier and more quickly than anyone else (unless under heavy crossfire like in ep 2). Ray-type spells can be deflected with the lightsaber (because there's no way they can deflect a blast from a heavy laser turret but not a dinky Warden. No way is a Warden's beam is more powerful than a plasma-based version of a howitzer, not if directly deflecting a bullet from a handgun takes so much juice...they just wouldn't have the power, not even McCoy with the Blackstaff).
All that said, a single Warden isn't enough to take out Obi, though two might do it. Any Senior Council member should be able to do it, just because they'd be less direct with their attacks and defenses. Old Wardens (even the improvisational ones) are too linear to do anything worthwhile, and young Wardens just don't carry the experience or metaphysical oomph. Wardens are sledgehammers, not scalpels...not even Luccio, for all her apparent finesse in combat. Wardens are the Judge Dredd of the metaphysical world...and that's a severe weakness. They're like Sardukar, Jedi are closer to Fremen. Heck, Luccio's only saving grace was that she got mind-controlled and ended up having an affair with Dresden...did a world of good for her perspective. Before, she'd have been a threat to a Jedi Master, but still would've lost with her uncompromising attitude. Jedi train specifically to fight Sith who think exactly that way.
Ultimately, Yoda could take them all, period...like a little green buddhist psychic ninja with a laser sword.
I say all this but I freely admit that while I like the ships, the sabers, some characters, and some Jedi philosophy, I don't really care at all for the overall story of Star Wars. Lucas did much better with Indiana Jones, and I think that was mostly thanks to Spielberg. George Lucas is what M. Night Shyamalan could've become if only he hadn't made his movies so dull.
Your forgetting their ability to augment their physical abilities to levels just shy of the "Inhuman" series of powers, if not equal to them.
On a final note...the spellchecker supports Jedi...but not Sith, Sardukar, or Fremen? WTF?
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I'm not sure a jedi could do much about an exploding heart ritual, nor an evocation that just sets their clothes on fire :)
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Wardens are, in fact, capable of throwing attacks significantly more powerful than a plasma howitzer. Real Howitzers are are only Weapon: 6 or so, Plasma ones maybe Weapon: 8. A full Warden? Weapon: 11 or 12 with Fate Points.
And Jedi precognition is in no way capable of warning them whenever they cut their hair, because someone might be grabbing it for Thaumaturgy. If it were that good, they'd never get surprised by anything, and they clearly can be. It's almost always split-second precognition, not long-term. Thaumaturgy is the definition of long-term.
Or there's the possibility of attacks that aren't helped by seeing them coming, suvch as raising the internal temperature of the Jedi's body with raw will until they pass out. Seeing that one coming doesn't really help.
Andd finally, what about the behavior of the Wardens leads you to believe they're incapable of being tactically innovative? Ramirez's combat prowess and style? Morgan's use of nuclear weapons? They're somewhat conservative politically, but that's not the same thing as being incapable of creativity.
I'll admit that Wardens would likely lose in hand-to-hand, but a Warden with any brains at all wouldn't be in hand-to-hand.
Now in terms of specific characters, I'll admit you probably need a Senior Council member to take on Yoda, but most of the rest? No match for a Warden with prep-time (though they could probably take an unprepared one).
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Besides, "Hexus" beats "Lightsaber".
...I can't believe I'm arguing about this :P :P ;D
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Besides, "Hexus" beats "Lightsaber".
Oooh, an excellent point I'd completely missed. Never mind the above, Wardens would destroy Jedi hand to hand, since they can casually, even accidentally, make lightsabers cease to function.
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dude, like all the wizards most powerful people could destroy the star wars universe just by standing there.
although the sith and jedi do not have to stop using the force, they have no mana bar so to speak
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I would like to pit Ebenezer McCoy with Blackstaff against all jedi's everywhere both sith and regular goody two shoe variety.
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it would be 3oo, McCoy would be the spartans, and harry the guy he sends away but then returns to kill everything. And only darth vader, yoda and palptine together would be able to take down McCoy, who then uses his death spell and kills everyone, unless they take the head
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I'm SOOOOO not getting into this other than 2 things.
1. why all the Jedi hate?
2. Jedi master = senior council member if you know anything in depth about starwars.
Jedi have more juice somewhat less versatility (they can't make something from nothing like wizzies). jedi are basically focused practitioners with biomancy, psychic abilities and evocation.
also hexing lightsabers, yes. but harder than you think since they're actually very simple weapons infused with force power. so think a super efficient flashlight that they can (conceivably) force fix if you hexed them anyways.
dammit, that was more than two things... but you sith won't tempt me with divulging the full extent of my nerd lore.
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I'm SOOOOO not getting into this other than 2 things.
1. why all the Jedi hate?
2. Jedi master = senior council member if you know anything in depth about starwars.
Jedi have more juice somewhat less versatility (they can't make something from nothing like wizzies). jedi are basically focused practitioners with biomancy, psychic abilities and evocation.
also hexing lightsabers, yes. but harder than you think since they're actually very simple weapons infused with force power. so think a super efficient flashlight that they can (conceivably) force fix if you hexed them anyways.
dammit, that was more than two things... but you sith won't tempt me with divulging the full extent of my nerd lore.
I sympathize. I tried, and still stick by my position, but ultimately gave up trying to point out why.
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I'm posting this from a nook, so i won't be correcting any typos. But if Mccoy drops a satalite on a jedi, i doubt he'll dodge fast enough. Wizards ftw.
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since a Jedi can yank a star destroyer out of orbit a satellite is nothing to worry about. Mccoy can redirect it to land on him but he'll just force push it into a nearby ocean or catch it and put it back in orbit.
Edit: dang you wily Sith..... made me post.
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I would have to say the jedi mind trick is a blatent violation of the laws of magic...someone needs to get the wardens.
Harry states in PG that this is where people usually start breaking the Laws. Not by killing people but by using the old jedi mind trick. Thats how the korean child warlock at the beginning of PG started out.
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see the reason no body likes Jedi, is because sith are way more awesome.
See, the day that the exile, reven, yoda, McCoy, injun joe, and eldest brother gruff fight, ill be happy.
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A Jedi Master would sense Light Side and a Dresdenverse wizard would use the Sight and they'd team up to kick some Sith and Black Council ass.
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A Jedi Master would sense Light Side and a Dresdenverse wizard would use the Sight and they'd team up to kick some Sith and Black Council ass.
Except the jedi mind trick (a traditionally "light side" power) breaks the 4th law which they would be none to happy about. I'm pretty sure a warden would see the "these are not the droids you are looking for" and out comes the sword and the choppity choppity stabbity stabbity. No questions asked. No explanations, just "o shit he just mindcontrolled that guy" chop chop chop.
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Switty swimtty, crunchity crunchity, along comes the fisherman, rowity rowity, he catches the fishity. along come you, crunchity crunchity.
Please tell me someone got that joke, i would have told the whole story but i dont have the time
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Except the jedi mind trick (a traditionally "light side" power) breaks the 4th law which they would be none to happy about. I'm pretty sure a warden would see the "these are not the droids you are looking for" and out comes the sword and the choppity choppity stabbity stabbity. No questions asked. No explanations, just "o shit he just mindcontrolled that guy" chop chop chop.
Ahh but then you get the inconsistency of mashing two 'verses together. In Star Wars, what the Jedi do is all Light Side and wouldn't stain their souls with Dark Side taint, so would it show up to the Sight?
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To be honest, I think that "these are not the droids you're looking for" is on the same level as the magic that the WC uses to get normal people to avoid their meetings. Isn't that kind of magic brought up in Summer Knight or Proven Guilty?
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WC enchants a *place* to be less noticed, uninteresting, unobtrusive, not the same. Like dressing a hot chick in school marm clothes, nothing about the viewer was affected, but they still dont notice her.
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Dude ... Jedi Knights were fucked-up sinister not-so-secret police. They were emotionally repressed cultists who could execute people on sight on their own authority.
The White Council would have been whacking Jedi right and left, and would have been completely justified in doing it.
Forget Obi-wan ... Luke mind controls Jabba the Hut's peon into letting him in the door when he was specifically ordered not to do it ... think the peon survived Jabba's displeasure?
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The Force isn't magic.
So, no, the Jedi don't violate the 4th Law of Magic...or any of the other ones, either.
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Ahh but then you get the inconsistency of mashing two 'verses together. In Star Wars, what the Jedi do is all Light Side and wouldn't stain their souls with Dark Side taint, so would it show up to the Sight?
Whos talking about the Sight? Warden So an So witnesses obi wan kenobi putting the mind whammy on several soldiers. He pulls out his sword and does his best to help obi wan with his king louis impression (post revolution). He witnessed warlocky activity in a non explainable manner (he used a supernatural force on some guys to change their minds). He makes with the choppity. Questions can come later. Warden so an so has no schemas for "the force" or for "light side dark side". He only knows what he's lived with his whole life: That mind control is a no no punished by swift death.
Just like obi wan would think elaine was a dark jedi cause she's hurling lightning bolts all over the place. He's got no schema for magic, only for the Force.
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To be honest, I think that "these are not the droids you're looking for" is on the same level as the magic that the WC uses to get normal people to avoid their meetings. Isn't that kind of magic brought up in Summer Knight or Proven Guilty?
Harry uses it in TC to ward his hidey hole. Its a "don't look at me" sort of magic. However it does not work against Active Suspicion. Like stormtrooper jerry saying "hey youve got droids. An astro mech and a protocal droid too.. Those are JUST the type we're on the look out for. I need to see some papers fella". To which obi wan replies "You don't need to see my papers. these are not the droids you are looking for." He CHANGED HIS MIND. Thats the key for breaking the 4th law. Otherwise harry's first real discussion on the 4th law wouldn't include disparaging remarks about stupid ignorant kids trying "the ole jedi mind trick" as their first step on the path to crazed warlockitude.
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The Force isn't magic.
So, no, the Jedi don't violate the 4th Law of Magic...or any of the other ones, either.
I couldn't agree more. It ain't magic and has no relation to the Laws other then some over zealous warden thinking it is magic and punishing accordingly.
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I couldn't agree more. It ain't magic and has no relation to the Laws other then some over zealous warden thinking it is magic and punishing accordingly.
Overzealous? the WARDENS? never ;D
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The Force isn't magic.
So, no, the Jedi don't violate the 4th Law of Magic...or any of the other ones, either.
Crap, I completely forgot that. Though, if it were magic, it would be a blatant violation. But it's not, so we're good. Only problem is, Carlos and Harry are probably the only one's smart enough to stop and consider whether it's magic or not. All the other wardens would ASS-U-ME that it was magic and some might just not care if it is or not.
It takes about a dozen or so Jedi to yank fling an entire battlegroup of Star Destroyers out into interplanetary space, dunno what it takes to yank one down. But just about any Jedi can move your average starfighter, so the idea that they can't handle a satellite is...well silly. But, a satellite coming in that fast they probably couldn't stop, turn far enough not to hurt them maybe, but not stop. What they can do...is nearly always see it coming long before they lose their opportunity to get away. Jedi don't just see a few milliseconds into the future, they see how ever far they need to see, how ever far the Force needs them to see. Usually that's a split second sooner than an attack would land, but generally they'll sense danger or such before it occurs. They're not perfect and do fail in that regard sometimes, but wizards aren't perfect either...not even the ones who pretend to be, like the Merlin.
I think what this all boils down to is the classic Sci-fi vs. Fantasy issue. Which is amusing, since the only thing Sci-fi about Jedi is their lightsaber, and that requires their fantasy powers to function correctly. Everything else in Star Wars is Sci-fi...but not the Force, not even close.
As for the Jedi being the cultists blah blah blah...totally right...and also a near-perfect description of the White Council.
Ultimately though, the question has been answered by someone smarter than all of us, the guy I quoted. The Jedi Mind Trick does NOT violate the 4th Law because use of the Force is not magic.