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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Llayne on May 31, 2010, 02:19:59 PM
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I couldn't find any threads that discussed this. A player wants to use an honest to goodness shield for her character... any thoughts on how to stat it? An aspect she can tag? A bonus to her weapons for block/defense rolls?
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From the top of my head a few things seem possible:
The simplest way is to handle it as flavor and us it as armor. From what you wrote I have the feeling that this won't satisfy your player.
An other idea that comes to mind is, that with an appropriate Stunt you could allow your player to substitute her Weapons Skill when defending against gun attacks. That seems really nice, depending on how high the Athletics and Weapons Skills are. Wouldn't even be overpowered in my opinion, because a good gunslinger can still get around it easily enough.
The third thing you could try is handling the shield similar to the evocation/block rules. In this case you would have to talk to your group how much of a block the shield would represent. In my opinion this is really tricky, because you wouldn't want to make it to strong. It's just a shield anyhow and there is a reason why you don't see those around anymore these days...
Last, if the shield would be an Item of Power (why do I have to think Captain America? ;) ), then what it can do would be reflected in it's powers. That might be a good idea too...
Edit: Correction on the Block idea ... You could just use the Block rules ... basically that would come down to just flavor though, because you could do the same thing with the weapon you wield in the other hand ...
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It could be an exception to the armor doesn't stack rule. Give the shield an armor rating of say, two, which is the same armor rating chainmail has. So a guy decked out in chainmail with a shield would have an armor rating of 4.
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It could be an exception to the armor doesn't stack rule. Give the shield an armor rating of say, two, which is the same armor rating chainmail has. So a guy decked out in chainmail with a shield would have an armor rating of 4.
It's definitely a possibility, but armor is a really big deal in this game and there is a reason why it shouldn't stack. If you allow it in the way you described I highly suggest a Stunt has to go along with it and a FP has to be spend when it's used... Armor 4 is huge dude ;D
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How about this, make it so you spend a fate point to allow the shield armor to stack with other armor. This reflects "bringing the shield up" to take the hit in time, and doing so at the proper angle to deflect the brunt of the attack.
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How about this, make it so you spend a fate point to allow the shield armor to stack with other armor. This reflects "bringing the shield up" to take the hit in time, and doing so at the proper angle to deflect the brunt of the attack.
Yeah ... pretty much what I said. Another thing: If the shield would be an Item Aspect, then you always could Invoke it for the +2 on the defense roll. Thats essentially even better then +2 armor, because it makes it so much more likely that you deflect the damage all together. Wouldn't even need a stunt.
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It could be an exception to the armor doesn't stack rule. Give the shield an armor rating of say, two, which is the same armor rating chainmail has. So a guy decked out in chainmail with a shield would have an armor rating of 4.
This is a bit broken, Armor 4 will more than stop any melee weapon on earth...not to mention Plate Mail and Shield getting Armor 5.
On the other hand, requiring a Fate Point is kind of excessive (actually, since a fate Point gives a +2 anyway, it makes the shield useless). If you go the Fate Point direction it'd need to be at least Armor: 3 to be worthwhile, and that seems REALLY excessive (from a realism standpoint).
Personally, I do think stacking armor is the way to go, I'd just make the shield 1 point of Armor that explicitly stacks, that'll give you a max Armor of 4 or so. Allowing it to stack makes it awesome, while keeping it to a single point keeps it from being an "I Win" button. I'd also note that it's probably Weapon: 1 to bash people with, which might come up.
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Yeah ... pretty much what I said. Another thing: If the shield would be an Item Aspect, then you always could Invoke it for the +2 on the defense roll. Thats essentially even better then +2 armor, because it makes it so much more likely that you deflect the damage all together. Wouldn't even need a stunt.
On the other hand, requiring a Fate Point is kind of excessive (actually, since a fate Point gives a +2 anyway, it makes the shield useless). If you go the Fate Point direction it'd need to be at least Armor: 3 to be worthwhile, and that seems REALLY excessive (from a realism standpoint).
Personally, I do think stacking armor is the way to go, I'd just make the shield 1 point of Armor that explicitly stacks, that'll give you a max Armor of 4 or so. Allowing it to stack makes it awesome, while keeping it to a single point keeps it from being an "I Win" button. I'd also note that it's probably Weapon: 1 to bash people with, which might come up.
How about a healthy compromise between the two.
Require a fate point to activate it, gives +2 to the defense roll and +1 armor to stack with your other armor, covers both bases of defense (dodging it completely and taking the hit), and does 4 shifts of effect (which is fate point worthy, imo).
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Why not make it only applicable to the front. That way if an enemy maneuvers to the side or the back they bypass it entirely...kinda like a
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How about a healthy compromise between the two.
Require a fate point to activate it, gives +2 to the defense roll and +1 armor to stack with your other armor, covers both bases of defense (dodging it completely and taking the hit), and does 4 shifts of effect (which is fate point worthy, imo).
Not bad.
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If you like...but that's not at all how shields actually work. They're really a fairly passive, always in effect, thing unless you're hitting somebody with them. Large ones, anyway. They make it harder to hit you by vastly decreasing the surface area available that's not covered by hard things, much like armor.
Still, you may have a point for Bucklers and other similar shields. How about this:
All shield have the Item Aspect "I'm A Shield" which may not be Tagged, but can be Invoked on many defensive rolls, though a Maneuver dealing with maneuvering behind you can easily make it useless.
Small Shields: When you Invoke the Shield's Aspect, you also recieve a point of Armor. This stacks with other armor.
Large Shield: As long as you hold the shield, you recieve one additional point of Armor against appropriate attacks which explicitly stacks with other armor.
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Get out of my mind Deadmanwalking, its dirty in there.
I was totally thinking of giving the shield an aspect of "I am a Shield" that you could get a free invoke off once a scene.
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Oh and your idea is good too, as long as it imposes social awkwardness in mundane company "Why the hell are you toting around a shield? Freakin wierdo." Im fine with it.
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If you like...but that's not at all how shields actually work. They're really a fairly passive, always in effect, thing unless you're hitting somebody with them. Large ones, anyway. They make it harder to hit you by vastly decreasing the surface area available that's not covered by hard things, much like armor.
Still, you may have a point for Bucklers and other similar shields. How about this:
All shield have the Item Aspect "I'm A Shield" which may not be Tagged, but can be Invoked on many defensive rolls, though a Maneuver dealing with maneuvering behind you can easily make it useless.
Small Shields: When you Invoke the Shield's Aspect, you also recieve a point of Armor. This stacks with other armor.
Large Shield: As long as you hold the shield, you recieve one additional point of Armor against appropriate attacks which explicitly stacks with other armor.
Even better then the compromise. An other nice rule supplement brought to you by Deadmanwalking. ;D
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Oh and your idea is good too, as long as it imposes social awkwardness in mundane company "Why the hell are you toting around a shield? Freakin wierdo." Im fine with it.
Oh, absolutely. Compelling "I'm A Shield" for social problems would be very appropriate indeed.
Even better then the compromise. An other nice rule supplement brought to you by Deadmanwalking. ;D
It's as much KOFFEYKID's rule as mine, but thank you for the praise.
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I was leaning toward adding to the block role, but this makes sense to me.
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I'd stack it as armor 2 and roll athletics vs. Alertness for " getting it up" in time. Needs a stunt too.
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I like it as a floating aspect, and add the stunt "Shielded warrior" that adds +1 to melee defenses".
Possibly add the bonus "Can use melee as defense against thrown and 'bows' while taking a full defense action" somewhere...
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You might want to consider not putting the defensive aspect to high and remembering that shields can be weapons, so adding a Weapon:1 to it as an additional stunt might work out.
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I would think an enemy could compel the 'I'm a shield' aspect to nullify the extra armour bonus, this would show the enemy attacking from behind or attacking in ways that are hard to deflect (a flurry of well timed blows, aiming at exposed areas, assuming the shield also blocks line of sight for a certain attack etc).
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Another interesting thing to consider if having a shield is considered a tag-able aspect is that the opponent can also use it against you. Besides the whole "attacking from behind" idea to nullify the shield bonus, opponents could also tag it if you were trying to run away from them (shields are pretty heavy, especially the large ones).
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Give it an armour rating and a weapon rating depending on size, design, and material. If the play wants more umph, allow for Stunts and personal Aspects.
In real life, people who used shields spent a lot of time learning how to use them. You learn how to position them to effectively protect yourself, how to attack with them quickly without negating the defensive benefits, and similar things. Anything beyond using the basic armour and weapon rating would be reflected by Stunts, which would represent time spent training thusly.
If the player wants the thing to be important to the character's story, that's what Aspects are for. "My handy shield!" is a fine Aspect. And it earns you fate points when you can't bring your toy somewhere with you.
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Let them Ready the Shield as a assumed maneuver akin to picking up a weapon, and let them tag it as invoke for effect on it. A shield is likely to be a real powerful prop, as it can reasonably allow all sorts of things. Very diverse use and very powerful.
If you want actual stats, just have it's armor apply to everything short of Thaumaturgy. It can even block line-of-sight for evocation!
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1) When wearing any shield you defend with your weapons skill against melee at +1 if you spend a supplemental action to use it.
2) Once per exchange, you can interpose a shield to absorb some of the energy of a melee blow that lands; reduce any extra stress from the attacker's high success roll by the shield rating. You still take normal stress from the weapons rating.
Buckler
Shield Rating 1
Medium Shield
Shield Rating 2. You can use the shield as partial cover against ranged attacks (guns, thrown, bows and the like). You can interpose against both meleee and ranged attacks and use the defend option as a supplemental action against a single ranged atacker. A medium shield slows you down a bit and you can't use both hands to effectively use larger weapons; you get -1 to attacks with weapons rating 2 and -2 with weapon rating 3.
Tower/Riot Shield
Shield Rating 3. You can use the shield as full cover against melee and ranged attacks; as a normal action, you interpose it against all attacks from one direction. However, a tower shield is too unwieldy to move quickly; you cannot use it as a supplemental action, and you get -1 to attacks with weapons rating 2 and -2 with weapon rating 3.
So a SWAT guy with a riot shield that wears heavy bulletproof suit (armor 2) and takes cover and gets shot from the front by some thugs with handguns is fairly safe; even if they get 3 shifts of success in their roll to hit, the shield absorbs the extra stress and the armor stops weapon 2 attacks. Then comes a guy with a machinegun. The shield still absorbs up to 3 shifts of extra stress but doesn't stop the weapon 3 attacks; the armor reduces the impact but the SWAT guy still takes 1 stress.
In his turn, he attacks back with his own gun but because the shield is in the way (-2 to hit) he misses.
In the next exchange, the sneaky thug that had crept up behind him and aimed in the first exchange now shoots, tagging "In my Sights" and "From Behind" since the SWAT guy is definitely facing away from him. He rolls great and the shield does not protect against it; the SWAT guy rolls only an average in his defense. He takes a weapon 2 hit with +2 success from rolling but another +4 from aspects for a total of 8 stress. Armor reduces that to 6 stress but he is still taken out. (unnamed NPCs don't have consequences to spare)
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Eh, I'd just treat a shield by itself as armor:1 and let it stack with worn armors--as long as you keep reasonable with your armor values, it shouldn't be too bad. According to the guidelines on YS 202, an armor's rating should be equal to the kind of attack it's completely effective against. In other words, chainmail is probably armor:1 (pretty completely effective against knives and such, but a sword can still crack a rib if it's a heavy blow), while full plate is probably armor:2 (complete protection against swords and such, hence the development of big smashy hammers and greatswords and such).