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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Papa Gruff on May 05, 2010, 12:37:39 PM
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I have an other question related to crafting.
The PC/NPC that I plan to create for the occasional tag along with my group is a master gunsmith. I want him to be able to make guns of exceptional quality for his vampire hunting and to sell in the little custom gun shop that he runs as his day job.
The rules for crafting mundane objects are easy enough. Basically, given enough time, my PC can create any item/gun of any quality he likes. But how would that reflect in the Item? There is the example of the warden swords which are crafted so well that they gain a damage bonus. Would that apply to a exceptionally good gun too?
Unfortunately the rules for crafting are a bit weak when it comes to the everyday stuff. What do you think? Can the rules for the magical item crafting be modified to apply to mundane crafting?
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This is probably done best as an aspect. Something like "My guns are the best" (or whatever). So you can invoke it to get a bonus when shooting someone, and it can be compelled when a gang of thieves come looking for your stuff.
As for making 'mundane' guns with a higher weapon rating, that's probably right out. Considering that both a .44 magnum pistol and an assault rifle are weapon: 3.
It might be possible to make an item of power gun that give stunts though, something like:
Abe Lincoln's Repeater (Total -1 Refresh)
Able Lincoln's Repeater counts as Weapon 3, both when shooting and when used in close combat.
+2 Item of Power (A Henry repeating rifle)
+0 Four Score and seven years ago...
Abe Lincoln's Repeater satisfies the catch condition for Skavis Court Vampires toughness (both bullets and just hitting them with it)
-1 State of the Union
When defending against social or mental attacks with Discipline, any of your aspects (such as consequences or other temporary or permanent aspects) that get tagged provide only a +1. If the attacker chooses to tag for a reroll, you may “lock down” one of his dice, leaving him only the other three to re-roll.
-1 The ballot is stronger than the bullet.
When using Presence to command a group, gain +1 on the effort. Further, your efforts to coordinate a group are efficient, moving one time increment faster than normal.
-1 You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and independence.
Gain +2 to Alertness when it is used to determine initiative.
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This is probably done best as an aspect. Something like "My guns are the best" (or whatever). So you can invoke it to get a bonus when shooting someone, and it can be compelled when a gang of thieves come looking for your stuff.
That seems possible but it's just some kind of workaround to my problem. Following the rules this would only work for my PC and not for his customers who don't share a similar Aspect.
As for making 'mundane' guns with a higher weapon rating, that's probably right out. Considering that both a .44 magnum pistol and an assault rifle are weapon: 3.
Why do you think it's right out? A normal one handed sword is just a weapon: 2. The warden swords, as I understand it, gain their +1 damage only due to their formidable quality and not through enchantment. Why shouldn't that be possible for an exceptional gun too?
It might be possible to make an item of power gun that give stunts though, something like:
Abe Lincoln's Repeater (Total -1 Refresh)
Able Lincoln's Repeater counts as Weapon 3, both when shooting and when used in close combat.
+2 Item of Power (A Henry repeating rifle)
+0 Four Score and seven years ago...
Abe Lincoln's Repeater satisfies the catch condition for Skavis Court Vampires toughness (both bullets and just hitting them with it)
-1 State of the Union
When defending against social or mental attacks with Discipline, any of your aspects (such as consequences or other temporary or permanent aspects) that get tagged provide only a +1. If the attacker chooses to tag for a reroll, you may “lock down” one of his dice, leaving him only the other three to re-roll.
-1 The ballot is stronger than the bullet.
When using Presence to command a group, gain +1 on the effort. Further, your efforts to coordinate a group are efficient, moving one time increment faster than normal.
-1 You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and independence.
Gain +2 to Alertness when it is used to determine initiative.
Of your ideas this one is probably the best, but it's clearly against the rules. As I understand it, Stunts are generally of limits for use in Items of Power (they are Items of Power and not Items of Stunts after all). Secondly there is the problem, that an Item of Power has to have a purpose under which it's powers have to be used. There is no bargain to be made with a customarily crafted gun. There are no rules to follow...
Nevertheless, I like the Repeater yet I don't know if it's valid in terms of game mechanics. It might be possible to adapt this set of rules to make it compatible though .
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Well it would take only a small houserule to allow an "Item of Quality" Stunt to be purchaseable, allowing Stunts or Skill bonuses for an item.
Since such items would be of very high quality and an obvious major benefit, this character's association with the other PCs could be used as justification for them buying the Item of Quality (Gun) stunt.
Perhaps, as an alternative, create a tree of Stunts along the lines of "Master Craftsman" built to allow for creation of a mundane version of Focus Items and Enchanted Items? Base the costs and rules in some way off of Thaumaturgy for how many slots of items he can have, and how to build more. A rifle made by your character, for example, could provide a +1 bonus for maneuvers or attacks from more than 2 zones from your target.
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I'd allow exceptional melee weaons to be raised one weapon rating via Craftsmanship but not Guns. My reasoning is simple: a sword's weapon rating comes from the sword itself, how sharp, well balanced, and so on it is, but a gun's comes from the bullets you load in it.
Now, it would make some logical sense to have exceptional guns add +1 to the Guns skill of anyone using them (since they aim so much better and so on), but that's a mechanical minefield that I wouldn't want to open up. Ditto the Items of Quality mentioned above.
Personally, I'd handle it with a high rating in Craftsmanship, the Aspect mentioned above, and a Stunt ('My Own Guns') granting him +1 whenever he's using a gun of his own design.
You can also do things like make a gun pretty much untraceable or fully automatic if you've got that kind of skill, and those are both really nice in and of themselves.
He could also likely make armor-piercing ammo (which I'd say ignores a point or two of armor), a normally illegal ammunition type.
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I'd allow exceptional melee weaons to be raised one weapon rating via Craftsmanship but not Guns. My reasoning is simple: a sword's weapon rating comes from the sword itself, how sharp, well balanced, and so on it is, but a gun's comes from the bullets you load in it.
Well, I'll argue this to a limited extent. The quality of a gun can have a *lot* to do with how well it works, and even more with how well it works *for you*. For example, poorly machined or poorly maintained parts can rub, chafe, wear, and jam. Worn or poorly machined barrels may have the rifling worn out (worse aim), or even have burrs and scars that badly mar the bullet and cause it to travel slower or tumble in the air. Poorly designed guns can be unwieldy or uncomfortable to use. Over-heated or abused barrels can warp (though depending on just how badly, this could also cause a catastrophic failure of the firearm).
On the other hand, customized firearm grips can make the gun more comfortable and easier to control; people have different preferences in weight distribution (heavier barrels make the firearm easier to control with recoil but harder to aim free-hand); some people prefer different types of sights; people have different preferences on trigger resistance...
And I'll also point out that while pistols and rifles may be able to chamber the same bullets for matching calibres, the performance from a long- and a short-barreled firearm will be radically different in most cases.
:)
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Absolutely! But you're talking reliability and accuracy. Not raw damage. Enhanced relaibility should just mean the GM won't Compel you to have the gun malfunction, and I mentioned the possibility of enhanced accuracy and how that ran into rules issues if implemented. Raw damage is what Weapon rating represents.
As for the pistol/rifle difference you're quite right, but that's two weapons with different Weapon ratings, not one who's Weapon rating is enhanced.
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No matter how good the gun is a 185 grain +P .45ACP hollow point is a 185 grain +P .45ACP hollow point. A higher quality gun can increase accuracy slightly, decrease the chance of jamming by a great deal, and possibly increase the velocity of the round by an very small and irrelevant amount... But it doesn't make the round do more damage.
I would focus instead on specialized self-loaded rounds, such as ones made from iron and inherited silver. That is much more realistic and functionally useful... Don't get Hollywood stupid though and start trying to put acid or liquid UV rays in glass vials into the rounds... Though you might be able to do something vaguely similar if you have a good crafting wizard available.
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Absolutely! But you're talking reliability and accuracy. Not raw damage. Enhanced relaibility should just mean the GM won't Compel you to have the gun malfunction, and I mentioned the possibility of enhanced accuracy and how that ran into rules issues if implemented. Raw damage is what Weapon rating represents.
As for the pistol/rifle difference you're quite right, but that's two weapons with different Weapon ratings, not one who's Weapon rating is enhanced.
Fair enough. :)
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No matter how good the gun is a 185 grain +P .45ACP hollow point is a 185 grain +P .45ACP hollow point. A higher quality gun can increase accuracy slightly, decrease the chance of jamming by a great deal, and possibly increase the velocity of the round by an very small and irrelevant amount... But it doesn't make the round do more damage.
I would focus instead on specialized self-loaded rounds, such as ones made from iron and inherited silver. That is much more realistic and functionally useful... Don't get Hollywood stupid though and start trying to put acid or liquid UV rays in glass vials into the rounds... Though you might be able to do something vaguely similar if you have a good crafting wizard available.
Or fill paintballs with holy water and garlic?
Well, the whole "sunlight rounds" thing - in my mind - comes down to whether you're dealing with something vulnerable to UV rays or vulnerable to Sunlight. The former is much easier to reproduce without magic than the latter.
Actually, right now, I'm having a "Anita Blake" moment - there are several long discussions about self-made anti-vampire rounds. I think the one that "won" was a silver-coated hollow-point filled with holy water and garlic cloves, and then stopped up with wax.
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Yeah, I'd require Sponsored Magic of an appropriate type to actually do real sunlight (Seelie Magic being the example I have in mind), normal magic just won't cut it.
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Yeah, I'd require Sponsored Magic of an appropriate type to actually do real sunlight (Seelie Magic being the example I have in mind), normal magic just won't cut it.
Page 307 actually has the example for Harry's "sunburst in a handkerchief" - no sponsor necessary, just happiness.
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Page 307 actually has the example for Harry's "sunburst in a handkerchief" - no sponsor necessary, just happiness.
Hmm, you're right. My bad.
Okay, I'd alow it on items, but stick to requiring Sponsored Magic to do it as Evocation.
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Don't get Hollywood stupid
Repeated for emphasis since everyone apparently missed it last time. ;)
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Hm ... I'm still nor really satisfied by the ideas presented here.
I guess you guys are right by stating, that an exceptionally well crafted weapon shouldn't be raised up one level on the weapons chart. Obviously it would be to powerful since the step from 3 to 4(+) for some reason seems to be a lot steeper then the step from 2 to 3. Yet I really don't know why that is. Perhaps it's because the definition of the weapons chart gets a bit open ended and blurry at 4+.
Making it a Stunt/Aspect seems like a good idea but it again really doesn't reflect the nature of a well crafted gun. I'm not after some munchkin bonus here. What I want to think about is how to translate exceptional craftsmanship of mundane items into something that exceeds pure flavor. This even doesn't concern only guns, it's really expandable to all kinds of things: armor, vehicles, steel framed doors, etcetera ...
Perhaps I will go the way mentioned here and try to think of something other then a damage bonus when it comes to guns. The Skill bonus is a nice idea, but wouldn't that be even more powerful then the +1 damage?
As to ammunition: that the PC I have in mind makes customary ammo is pretty much a given. But in terms of game mechanics this seems just like an exploitation of Catches and doesn't reflect the his talent at gun making.
I'll have to ponder this one a bit more. Perhaps my gamers will have a good idea and maybe we'll try around a bit. I still hope for a neat suggestion, so don't hesitate if you come up with something good.
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Another possibly rules hack would be a master craftsman ability that has something like a hunger track attached to it.
So, for example, if you take master craftsman for guns, you get a hunger track that determines how much cool stuff you can do with your guns before you have to go and spend time building more stuff.
So something like:
Mastercraftsman (-2 refresh)
Gains a craft track based on your craftsman ability.
You gain 3 free stunts related to objects you can build, and each time you use one of the stunts, fill a box in the crafts track. When the crafts track is full you can no longer use the associated stunts.
You can refill your crafts track by (doing stuff)
You can attach more stunts to your master craftsman ability on a 2 points of refresh for 3 stunts basis.
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the step from 3 to 4(+) for some reason seems to be a lot steeper then the step from 2 to 3.
Look at the Might adjudication charts with Harry asking just about the same question and Billy more or less implying that, at least for Might, anything until you hit about 6 or so is still vanilla human and can't actually carry that much more without hitting supernatural levels. This might continue otherwise in the system. I'm not sure!
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Assuming that every step up in weapon category is supposed to represent a weapon that is around 2-4 times more powerful than the previous weapon step.
So you go from
pistols Weapon: 2
rifles: weapon: 3
50 caliber sniper rifles (and similar) weapon: 4
~25mm cannon: weapon: 5
and tank shells are something like weapon: 8 or weapon: 9
So moving up from weapon 3 to weapon 4 actually is a bigger step than moving from weapon 2 to weapon 3.
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Look at the Might adjudication charts with Harry asking just about the same question and Billy more or less implying that, at least for Might, anything until you hit about 6 or so is still vanilla human and can't actually carry that much more without hitting supernatural levels. This might continue otherwise in the system. I'm not sure!
Actually according to the chart weapons 4+ are well within the limits of mortal capability. The problem is, that the chart leaves us with an open end. "Battlefield weaponry" leaves us with a gigantic field of possibility. Guns in general are to diverse to fit into the 1 to 4+ chart. There simply is a huge difference between a pump action shot gun and big game hunting riffle... And yes, I know that this is basically because of the difference in ammunition used.
Nevertheless you all have to agree that a shotgun (weapon:3) will probably not kill a rhino or an elephant, while a big game hunting rifle (weapon:3) can without a doubt. Problem. Not in the rules. I can see now why the gun mechanics in Shadowrun are so hideously out of proportion ... ;D
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Well, I think you're not quite seeing one of the main draws of the Fate system, which is the level of abstraction that it offers. We don't need to have long, detailed discussions about what gun is the best in which situation, because they're all more or less equal. There's no way to differentiate them mechanically, so it becomes more a matter of which is cinematically more suited to your character or the situation.
Although I'd argue that a big game hunting rifle would allow you to throw a maneuver on a target of an "In My Sights", which is practically +2 damage right there. You could possibly put something on it along the lines of Weapon:3 (Weapon:4 against Hulking Size opponents) as well, but that is veering strictly away from the main draw of Fate, that being the enormous level of abstraction.
Baaaaasically, I think what you want to do is write a whole new guns and weapons supplement for Fate using your own versions of their rules. Where you set the granularity finer so you can make distinctions like that. I'm not sure how well you'll be able to do that without either making skills more or less obsolete and guns/weapons dominant or make people/things much more durable. Basically, as it stands now, unless someone has some level of special, you can take them out with a single shot from most guns. Hell, even a rhino is pretty fair pickings for an instant or maybe two-round take down. Weapon:3, In My Sights, Roll of +2 or better, and unless he takes a consequence of some sort, he's taken out. And what normal rhino would think to take a consequence?
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Well, I think you're not quite seeing one of the main draws of the Fate system, which is the level of abstraction that it offers. We don't need to have long, detailed discussions about what gun is the best in which situation, because they're all more or less equal. There's no way to differentiate them mechanically, so it becomes more a matter of which is cinematically more suited to your character or the situation.
I'm well aware of the diversity Fate offers and I'm quite looking forward to an end of bickering and consulting mile long weapons charts. The thread started out as a question about how to reflect refinement in crafting of guns. I guess in bringing more attention to the damage aspect I myself have derailed it somewhat.
Although I'd argue that a big game hunting rifle would allow you to throw a maneuver on a target of an "In My Sights", which is practically +2 damage right there. You could possibly put something on it along the lines of Weapon:3 (Weapon:4 against Hulking Size opponents) as well, but that is veering strictly away from the main draw of Fate, that being the enormous level of abstraction.
Fair point. Raising damage by maneuver is in the book.
Baaaaasically, I think what you want to do is write a whole new guns and weapons supplement for Fate using your own versions of their rules. Where you set the granularity finer so you can make distinctions like that. I'm not sure how well you'll be able to do that without either making skills more or less obsolete and guns/weapons dominant or make people/things much more durable. Basically, as it stands now, unless someone has some level of special, you can take them out with a single shot from most guns. Hell, even a rhino is pretty fair pickings for an instant or maybe two-round take down. Weapon:3, In My Sights, Roll of +2 or better, and unless he takes a consequence of some sort, he's taken out. And what normal rhino would think to take a consequence?
In a way you might be right. I agree with you that it could be taken care of by a set refined set of rules. I also share your concern of how well this can be implemented without changing a lot of other stuff. In the end Fate might be not cut out for diversity in guns. What bugs me is that it's obviously possible for other weapons like swords and such...
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Eh? just like it's possible to have weapon 3 pistols, it's possible to have weapon:3 one handed swords. So cops with Glocks are using weapon:2 pistols, and Dirty Harry is using a weapon: 3 pistol. So, in the example of stuff like warden swords and the swords of the cross, they are all at the top end of one handed swords, so they are weapon 3.
So, if you wanted something like an elephant gun, or a 50 caliber rifle, or a buffalo gun, or something like that, it would be weapon: 4. So if you wanted a 2-handed warden sword, for example, you could say it was weapon 4, but remember then you won't have another hand free to use and focus items. Since the normal warden combat stance is sword + staff (or sword + pistol for some of the newer ones) they like the fact that their swords only need one hand. Their main use is cutting though enchantments anyway and making the sword OMG! hueg is not going to help with that.
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An option for that, Daddy-o Goat, would be to do some kind of 'roll five fudge dice, take the highest four' kind'f deal. That would indicate a fine weapon to me. Although it might be better to just give it a stunt attached to it and make it an Item of Stunt. Maybe add a little house-rule to the system to have 'most excellent' weapons/guns that have stunts attached and can be used by any character and don't have a minimum of -1 to them, but a maximum of -0. So you could have something like:
Best God-Damn Buffalo Gun
+1 Item Discount
-1 Stunt: +1 to damage against Hulking Size Targets, +1 to damage against armored opponents
It Is What It Is: Weapon: 3 rifle
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Eh? just like it's possible to have weapon 3 pistols, it's possible to have weapon:3 one handed swords. So cops with Glocks are using weapon:2 pistols, and Dirty Harry is using a weapon: 3 pistol. So, in the example of stuff like warden swords and the swords of the cross, they are all at the top end of one handed swords, so they are weapon 3.
So, if you wanted something like an elephant gun, or a 50 caliber rifle, or a buffalo gun, or something like that, it would be weapon: 4. So if you wanted a 2-handed warden sword, for example, you could say it was weapon 4, but remember then you won't have another hand free to use and focus items. Since the normal warden combat stance is sword + staff (or sword + pistol for some of the newer ones) they like the fact that their swords only need one hand. Their main use is cutting though enchantments anyway and making the sword OMG! hueg is not going to help with that.
I can't dispute most of this. Technically you are not entirely right about one handed swords. Not any one handed sword is capable of being weapon: 3. The chart clearly says that (YW 202). They can ONLY be weapon: 3 if they are really well crafted.
And yes. You are right. By that rule a exceptional crafted two handed sword is weapon: 4. How is that any different from a well crafted gun being weapon: 4?! I'm glad in a way. Let's get back to the crafting aspect here! How is it somehow OK for an edged weapon to gain a hole damage value just saying it's due to the high skill of the crafter, but for the same rule not to apply to guns.
When we don't differentiate and a weapon: 3 is always a weapon: 3, then why do we differentiate between gun weapon: 2/3 and edged weapon: 2/3?
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An option for that, Daddy-o Goat, would be to do some kind of 'roll five fudge dice, take the highest four' kind'f deal. That would indicate a fine weapon to me.
That's a cool idea! Rolling five dice or re-rolling a fail might do it. Hmm...
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Okay, going back to the veeeery first post, the section on Warden swords actually says (YW303, old copy): "A Warden Sword counts as a Weapon: 3 sword at minimum in nearly all circumstances." This doesn't jive, in my mind, with the weapon rating being because of crafting - it sounds more like a side effect of the enchantment. Is there another reference, or is that the quote you're basing your W:3 crafted sword stuff on?
The rules on crafting say that, as a rule, higher-quality items are harder to destroy, not necessarily more effective. And honestly, sitting and thinking about it, I'd say that a higher-quality sword would be easier to control and hit with, not necessarily prone to doing more damage. *hitting* them is typically a matter of control, strength, and - to a lesser extent - sharpness, while damage once you've hit them is much more a matter of weight and the force behind them.
Maybe upgrading the weapon rating is just the wrong way to go about it? It makes more sense to me for almost any high-quality weapon to be granting you a skill bonus, not a pure damage bonus.
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A skill bonus is even more powerful than a damage bonus, since skill to hit determines the margin of effectiveness for damage purposes.
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(For those who are curious, yes, a Warden Sword slightly bends the rules in that we allow it two different spell effects to be selected from when making use of the 3 daily uses instead of just one spell effect. But Luccio had a special talent in her first body, after all, and that's gone now; consider the uniqueness and limited supply of the items to play into that. Also, the Weapon:3 thing with the sword, that's just because they're really well made swords, ala the result of a lot of time investment and a killer Craftsmanship roll.)
This is basically what this thread is all about...
... accuracy as a skill bonus might be a good idea as was said in this thread before. But I'm afraid that it is even worse then the damage bonus...
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Skill bonus is always better than a power bonus. Because it matters whether you hit or not. +1 Skill is the same as +1 to hit and +1 to damage ... at the same time!
Although that brings to mind adding a +1 to hit, but it only counts for hitting and it doesn't apply for damage. Which would mean it would turn a miss by -1 into a hit, but unless you've got a Weapon:X, it's not going to do any damage in the first place.
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Although that brings to mind adding a +1 to hit, but it only counts for hitting and it doesn't apply for damage. Which would mean it would turn a miss by -1 into a hit, but unless you've got a Weapon:X, it's not going to do any damage in the first place.
That is how I've been handling it. For example, a dagger from my current game.
Magical Copper Dagger:1, gives +1 to Weapons Skill, but bonus doesn't apply to damage
Admittedly, the dagger hasn't been used in combat much, but from what I have seen it works fairly well.
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That's a cool idea! Rolling five dice or re-rolling a fail might do it. Hmm...
Haven't had time to run down the exact math yet, but rolling 5 fudge dice, take the best 4 seems to be worth about .85. So not quite as much as a whole skill point.
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Haven't had time to run down the exact math yet, but rolling 5 fudge dice, take the best 4 seems to be worth about .85. So not quite as much as a whole skill point.
That's a nice bonus right there.
Or how about just rolling the usual 4 dice but being able to discard a fail?
I like the idea of using a dice mechanic to represent the weapons quality more and more. By discarding a fail or rolling 5 dice the gun/item turns the "fate" in favor for it's user. The best thing about it is, that it is expandable to other exceptionally crafted or modified things like cars and such.
Thank you guys ... I think we have a winner! :D