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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Moriden on April 16, 2010, 02:12:45 AM

Title: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 16, 2010, 02:12:45 AM
I'm pretty solid on most of the rules but figuring out what the complexity of a ritual seems to be beyond me without some kind of chart so i figured id put out here what i want it to do and see what methods others can come up with.


This would be a ritual taught to my character during his apprenticeship to a Wyld Fae/demon like creature its purpose is to "restore a man to the purity of the ancient ways" or less obliquely to transform a human into a less then [or more then] human state. essentially creating a form of scion.

mechanically it gives me inhuman toughness strength and recovery as well as aspect of the beast and claws. [ all of which I'm paying for, the ritual is mostly just background flavor to explain being a scion without a heritage]

so the cruncjy bits is getting
 
Quote
Tattoo Transformation
   Inhuman Strength                      -2
   Inhuman Recovery*                   -2
   Supernatural Toughness*           -4
   Claws                                      -1   
   Echoes of the Beast                 -1
   Human Guise                          -0
*Catch                                       +3
   Holy/Gold: can be researched

I'm completely at a loss for what the complexity of this ritual should be and more importantly why it should be that. any help would be greatly appreciated



Brian Blacknight
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Archmage_Cowl on April 16, 2010, 02:20:32 AM
well the ritual is remaking who you essentially are so i would say it has to have enough power to "take you out" as per transformation then another couple shifts of power to grant the abilities. I'm kinda out of it so i dont trust my brain to give you fully accurate numbers so im just gonna go out on a limb and say you're probably looking at around 40 shifts of power.
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 16, 2010, 02:35:29 AM
yes i knew it was going to be high. unfortunately what I'm looking for is the specific math and reasons behind the numbers.








Brian Blacknight
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 16, 2010, 12:20:50 PM
Some other questions .

it has to have enough power to fill up my stress track and all my potential consequences right? so do i actually take those consequences or is that just a "it has to be x powerful " thing.

can i simply go with the ritual and not need that extra 20 shifts of power. ?



Brian Blacknight
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: iago on April 16, 2010, 12:48:05 PM
Your opponent is the one that chooses whether or not to fill consequence boxes. In order to assert that there's no point in even trying (though your opponent might anyway), you have to produce a large enough stress effect that the taken out result is inevitable *no matter what*. If you're okay with your spell just mangling the crap out of him and not killing him as one possible outcome, setting the target lower works too.

Keep in mind that in order to cast one of these sorts of spells, Victor Sells spent most of the entire length of Storm Front doing preparation.  This is not something someone does casually or in the middle of dealing with seven other kinds of problems. 

Plus, if your target is a supernatural creature, or behind a particularly strong threshold, you have to account for that as well.

Remote-death spells are *hard work*.
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 16, 2010, 12:56:14 PM
Quote
Your opponent is the one that chooses whether or not to fill consequence boxes. In order to assert that there's no point in even trying (though your opponent might anyway), you have to produce a large enough stress effect that the taken out result is inevitable *no matter what*. If you're okay with your spell just mangling the crap out of him and not killing him as one possible outcome, setting the target lower works too.

Keep in mind that in order to cast one of these sorts of spells, Victor Sells spent most of the entire length of Storm Front doing preparation.  This is not something someone does casually or in the middle of dealing with seven other kinds of problems.

Plus, if your target is a supernatural creature, or behind a particularly strong threshold, you have to account for that as well.

Remote-death spells are *hard work*.

Thank you iago, that helps some. so since this is a trans formative spell that's intentionally being cast on myself to one make it easier and two avoid breaking the fourth? law i can safely say that i wont be resisting it and do not need to fill up all the consequence slots.

that leaves me with the questions of what is the base complexity, and do i still have to fill up my stress track?
is it one shift per stunt added, two per, or something less concrete?
How many shifts for permanent/full transformation
etc



Brian Blacknight
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: iago on April 16, 2010, 01:05:11 PM
Thank you iago, that helps some. so since this is a trans formative spell that's intentionally being cast on myself to one make it easier and two avoid breaking the fourth? law i can safely say that i wont be resisting it and do not need to fill up all the consequence slots.

Oh, right. Transformation.

Laws like the first and fourth are about what you can't do to other people. Go ahead and kill or transform *yourself*, that's fine. (If it weren't fine, then shapeshifting yourself would be off limits -- making trouble for the alphas.)

And remember, once you ascend, you're likely to have so damn much power you're definitely an NPC.

On that note, your GM would probably want to charge you a huge amount of shifts to represent the power it takes to, you know, be a god, on top of the basics of just achieving that taken out bit.
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 16, 2010, 01:11:12 PM
Quote
And remember, once you ascend, you're likely to have so damn much power you're definitely an NPC.

On that note, your GM would probably want to charge you a huge amount of shifts to represent the power it takes to, you know, be a god, on top of the basics of just achieving that taken out bit.

*laughs* did you read the original description iago? Specifically this part...
Quote
[ all of which I'm paying for, the ritual is mostly just background flavor to explain being a scion without a heritage]
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: iago on April 16, 2010, 01:17:59 PM
Sure -- but the question was about the math. :)
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 16, 2010, 01:22:59 PM
Quote
Sure -- but the question was about the math. Smiley

yeahp, your npc comment didn't really make much sense though since im paying for the stunts that i get. :P


Back to the math though. so your saying its not a clear case of one or two shifts of complexity per stunt given, its more of a "oh x amount feels right"?
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: iago on April 16, 2010, 01:38:37 PM
yeahp, your npc comment didn't really make much sense though since im paying for the stunts that i get. :P

Back to the math though. so your saying its not a clear case of one or two shifts of complexity per stunt given, its more of a "oh x amount feels right"?

I'm more sayin' these sorts of spells always live in a bit of a plot-device territory, like some of the big powerful NPCs. Entire stories are written about spells like this (
(click to show/hide)
). So if the GM wants to assign a "the story is THIS BIG OF A DEAL" tax on top of it all, that makes sense to me. Despite our needs to codify spellcraft in the system, there's a point where system is going to leave off, because from a novel perspective, magic is as much art as science.
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 16, 2010, 08:47:49 PM
Okay that works. if you where assessing such a tax how much would you go with? 

also i still don't have a clue what the base complexity would be...
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: iago on April 16, 2010, 08:49:30 PM
Okay that works. if you where assessing such a tax how much would you go with? 

also i still don't have a clue what the base complexity would be...

I'm losing context here, honestly. How about you give me a "fresh" question that spells out all that you're trying to accomplish?
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Wyrdrune on April 16, 2010, 09:56:15 PM
Oh, right. Transformation.

Laws like the first and fourth are about what you can't do to other people. Go ahead and kill or transform *yourself*, that's fine.

ok, i've got a question. let's say, i want to transform myself - or a willing target (just don't tell the council). (or let's say i want to give an ally the ability to breath water... )

what must I take into account? i presume the spell targets his or her endurance as a maneuver to stick the WATERBREATHING aspect on him or her.

must the spell just overcome the endurance rank or must i prepare the spell for endurance+fudge dice (which could make if quite difficult, when all are +)?

example: tha target has endurance 3 - should the spell then have a complexity of 3 (which would also mean that a practicioner with lore of 4 must take no additional preparations) or is the spell against and endurance roll? (which could have a maximum of 7, for which the spellcaster needs to channel more juice into the spell and needs additional preparations and/or foci or invoking of aspects).
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 16, 2010, 10:29:22 PM
the Internets ate my last reply so here goes.

Say you want an effect that temporarily gives you the equivalent bonus as a stunt for example well use inhuman strength and or claws. what would the complexity be?

or say you want to use a form of divination ritual to give yourself the ability to understand all spoken languages...

Title: Re: Rite of Water Breathing
Post by: margath on April 17, 2010, 04:29:12 PM
ok, i've got a question. let's say, i want to transform myself - or a willing target (just don't tell the council). (or let's say i want to give an ally the ability to breath water... )

what must I take into account? i presume the spell targets his or her endurance as a maneuver to stick the WATERBREATHING aspect on him or her.

must the spell just overcome the endurance rank or must i prepare the spell for endurance+fudge dice (which could make if quite difficult, when all are +)?

example: tha target has endurance 3 - should the spell then have a complexity of 3 (which would also mean that a practicioner with lore of 4 must take no additional preparations) or is the spell against and endurance roll? (which could have a maximum of 7, for which the spellcaster needs to channel more juice into the spell and needs additional preparations and/or foci or invoking of aspects).

Couldn't you do the same thing with a thamaturgic transformation of the element of water to the element of air for the person as a maneuver (Water turns to air when I breathe it!), for a duration of time dependent on the shifts you spent?  Since you're doing it as a maneuver, you may need the 3 shifts, but you're not being a Lawbreaker, and he probably doesn't need to roll any defense dice.
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: iago on April 17, 2010, 05:51:01 PM
Say you want an effect that temporarily gives you the equivalent bonus as a stunt for example well use inhuman strength and or claws. what would the complexity be?

Inhuman Strength gives you (essentially) Weapon:2 bare hands, and claws give you Weapon:3.  That's a 3-shift spell effect when used once.  I'd start building from there, thinking about elements of duration adding shifts to the spell complexity.
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 17, 2010, 06:20:59 PM
Quote
Inhuman Strength gives you (essentially) Weapon:2 bare hands, and claws give you Weapon:3.  That's a 3-shift spell effect when used once.  I'd start building from there, thinking about elements of duration adding shifts to the spell complexity.

okay so it would be three shifts for the weapon three affect? then you add on for duration, that seems to work. because you'd be transforming yourself, do you need to have a minimum complexity to be able to fill up your stress track, or is that just when doing similar things to other people?
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: iago on April 18, 2010, 01:01:43 AM
okay so it would be three shifts for the weapon three affect? then you add on for duration, that seems to work. because you'd be transforming yourself, do you need to have a minimum complexity to be able to fill up your stress track, or is that just when doing similar things to other people?
I'm mostly answering off the top of my head here. Let me back off from that, confer with folks who've been working more directly on the spell system, and get back to this in a bit.
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 18, 2010, 02:29:08 AM
Quote
I'm mostly answering off the top of my head here. Let me back off from that, confer with folks who've been working more directly on the spell system, and get back to this in a bit.

much apreciated.
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: JustinS on April 18, 2010, 03:33:18 AM
I'm mostly answering off the top of my head here. Let me back off from that, confer with folks who've been working more directly on the spell system, and get back to this in a bit.

This is very much like the question in my head when I read the PDF, which is: what would be the details of the 'turn into wolf spell' a.k.a. 'This will show you Billy; that Harry keeps saying the alphas just shortcut.
Title: Re: Rite of Water Breathing
Post by: Wyrdrune on April 18, 2010, 09:41:32 AM
Couldn't you do the same thing with a thamaturgic transformation of the element of water to the element of air for the person as a maneuver (Water turns to air when I breathe it!), for a duration of time dependent on the shifts you spent?  Since you're doing it as a maneuver, you may need the 3 shifts, but you're not being a Lawbreaker, and he probably doesn't need to roll any defense dice.

interesting idea. how about true transformations - say shapechange of the wizard himself? turning into an animal via thaumaturgy? if i got this right, you think I just have to go against the endurance score but not against endurance defense (which involves the dice). fine by me.
Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Moriden on April 18, 2010, 08:49:39 PM
Quote
interesting idea. how about true transformations - say shapechange of the wizard himself? turning into an animal via thaumaturgy? if i got this right, you think I just have to go against the endurance score but not against endurance defense (which involves the dice). fine by me.

you may  want to check out the stickied thread on thaumaturgical shapeshifting. but the answer appears to be fairly abstract. As i understand it. unlike with many other systems you start with the end result so to use your example of turning into a wolf, you have to first ask yourself well what is "being a wolf" going to give me?


If all you want is to be shaped like a wolf then that's probably doable as a temporary aspect via simple actions through thaumaturgy. Essentially you'd be using thaumaturgy to assess yourself as "a wolf" and the aspect would last as long as those rules say that it should.

Method one
Complexity will be determined by the gm based on how hard it is to "appear as a wolf" if such a thing where normally possible



Now if you want the same benefits that the alphas get while shape shifted into a wolf you can buy the relevant powers with refresh and use your magic as the "justification" for it, even doing so during play if you have the fate points to pay for it,[ this might make you an npc though] or you may use the "temporary" power rules on pg 92 of "your world" as explained in the previously mentioned sticky thread. if your low on fate points you could spend several actions creating appropriate aspects to then tag in liu of those [ how this works in your game is likely to change radically depending on your gm].

Method two
Not even gonna try to explain/represent this as a spell. i tried it wasn't pretty and i deleted it.


If your "wolf form" is somewhere in the middle of purely cosmetic and template then you can break it down to the specific changes you want. you want to effectively have an alertness and fists of 4, and move a bit faster. well that;s a base complexity of 9 [4+4+1] as per all spells[ i think] its base duration is determined by your st and then you can use the duration chart to add to that with higher complexity.[ or in one example given on the boards by LCDarkwood he inflicted a consequence on the character with the duration he wanted the affect to have and added that as an additional cost to the complexity: so a moderate consequence lasts a game session and eats a 4 stress hit thus costing 4 shifts of complexity]

Method three: Temporary combat wolf form
Complexity 11[20] [add your endurance and physical stress track to the base complexity if your st wants you to instinctively resist]

Gain the mild aspect of wolf your fists and alertness are treated as 4 and you can move one additional zone per move as per sprinting as long as this aspect remains on you.

if you don't want it as an "Consequence" then you've put two shifts into duration, you'll need to consult your dm and the chart to figure out its duration from there.




Title: Re: Rite of Ascension?
Post by: Wyrdrune on April 19, 2010, 10:05:39 AM
you may  want to check out the stickied thread on thaumaturgical shapeshifting. but the answer appears to be fairly abstract.

yeah, found the thread today, and i feel all my animal-transformative urges fulfilled :-)