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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Kali on December 16, 2009, 10:07:36 AM
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Sounds dirty, but isn't.
So, like most of you I always have story ideas bouncing around my head. I usually daydream over them, see if there's really anything there that catches my interest. The latest one is a fantasy novel with a Rip Van Winkle sort of character who wakes up after being asleep (for lack of a better word) for 200 years or so. He's on the run and ends up at the home of a widowed farmer woman.
In 200 years, there probably hasn't been enough of a shift that they speak different languages. But it's comparable, more or less, to someone from the early 1800s, late 1700s showing up in our time. They speak the same language, roughly, but use it differently.
The problem? Neither of them speak English, so it wouldn't be appropriate for me to use "thee" and "thou" and all that sort of thing to indicate he's speaking an older form of her language. So how do I do it? I don't want to just use descriptive phrases like:
"I don't understand what you're saying but my, this soup is delicious," he said in his old-fashioney words.
Any thoughts?
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If you're writing the story in non-English, look up how people spoke ~200 years ago and use that.
If you're writing the story in English, you're practically translating their fantasy gibberish anyways and may as well use ~200 years old English. That would be approximately Byron, no?
Beware, though: :)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YeOldeButcheredeEnglishe
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Read The Forever War by Jack Haldeman for an example of temporal shifts in an otherwise unchanging language. Personally, I think they're done reasonably well, all things considered; the job is HUGE. If I were you, I'd pick some other plot point. :D
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Languages are plastic, they constantly change as long as they are being spoken, and the meaning of words change constantly. I think if you seriously research the language in use by Rip Van Winkle as opposed to any current dialect of modern American English there would be grounds for a lot of humor.
Language, slang, accents and especially speed at which we speak.
To do it well, that would be the trick. Good luck and keep us posted!
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And also take into account cultural idioms.
If someone, say fell asleep in 1809, and woke up today.
Would they have any idea what "OMG, I like, totally googlestalked him." would mean?
Also. What is the rate of technical/magical advancement in your world.
Has the lives of the average person changed, and how drastically in the last 200 years.
Do they still use horse drawn plows? Or Do they have little magical sprites that prepare the fields.
Were there any big battles, any big wars? Cultural events.
For example.
If you went to sleep in 1350 and work up in 1550.
The english spoken would likely not have changed too much, although you might be weirded out by the level of french/english merging. But an amusing thing. A now common physical expression (giving someone the middle finger) would be completely incomprehensible to you. That's because you've never heard of the Battle of Agincourt. From which that particular expression came from. There's just alot of things to consider, and that's during a relatively slow period like the dark ages.
Temporal shift stories are hard to pull off well.
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Some great options here, and really good questions.
In this case, there's actually been a technological shift backwards. The person in question was "frozen" in the middle of a vast war that destroyed the better part of a couple of kingdoms. Two hundred years on, the population has recovered in numbers but a lot of knowledge was lost and never passed on. The ability to build the great cities is gone, etc.
It's roughly like ... Picture Alera, if all the furycrafters had been wiped out in the Vord war and no new ones were born. 200 years on, they can't build the road system, have no way to replicate erecting the giant walls of solid stone (tho they would rediscover manual labor to hew big blocks of stone) the cities were decimated along with all the knowledge stored there, etc.
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And also take into account cultural idioms.
If someone, say fell asleep in 1809, and woke up today.
Would they have any idea what "OMG, I like, totally googlestalked him." would mean?
Also. What is the rate of technical/magical advancement in your world.
Has the lives of the average person changed, and how drastically in the last 200 years.
Do they still use horse drawn plows? Or Do they have little magical sprites that prepare the fields.
Were there any big battles, any big wars? Cultural events.
For example.
If you went to sleep in 1350 and work up in 1550.
The english spoken would likely not have changed too much, although you might be weirded out by the level of french/english merging. But an amusing thing. A now common physical expression (giving someone the middle finger) would be completely incomprehensible to you. That's because you've never heard of the Battle of Agincourt. From which that particular expression came from. There's just alot of things to consider, and that's during a relatively slow period like the dark ages.
Temporal shift stories are hard to pull off well.
You’ve also missed Luther, a significant shift from aristocratic feudalism to monarchy, most of the Black Death and subsequent liberation of english serfs, the discovery of America & the sea route to India, throwing the muslims and jews out of Iberia, the abandonment of Greenland, I also think the prevalence of windmills and waterwheels, reasonably certain Turkey conquered lots of the Balkans…
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Some great options here, and really good questions.
In this case, there's actually been a technological shift backwards. The person in question was "frozen" in the middle of a vast war that destroyed the better part of a couple of kingdoms. Two hundred years on, the population has recovered in numbers but a lot of knowledge was lost and never passed on. The ability to build the great cities is gone, etc.
It's roughly like ... Picture Alera, if all the furycrafters had been wiped out in the Vord war and no new ones were born. 200 years on, they can't build the road system, have no way to replicate erecting the giant walls of solid stone (tho they would rediscover manual labor to hew big blocks of stone) the cities were decimated along with all the knowledge stored there, etc.
Sounds like the flashbacks in the Wheel of Time series, when you get a couple viewpoint flashbacks from the Forsaken characters.
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the job is HUGE. If I were you, I'd pick some other plot point. :D
^This.
I think you're better off having the characters -not- be able to understand each others' words, and emphasizing non-verbal communication on a basis of whatever human condition the characters share.
An example of such a thing might be what Phillip K. Dick does in 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep'. In that novel, we know the humanity of the person through the empathic reaction. Interaction through words is for the unfeeling androids.
I think it would probably help if you mapped out exactly which part of being post-modern-human* was gained or lost during this Armageddon you've got in your backstory.
*And I'm not talking about technology.
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^This.
I think you're better off having the characters -not- be able to understand each others' words, and emphasizing non-verbal communication on a basis of whatever human condition the characters share.
An example of such a thing might be what Phillip K. Dick does in 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep'. In that novel, we know the humanity of the person through the empathic reaction. Interaction through words is for the unfeeling androids.
I think it would probably help if you mapped out exactly which part of being post-modern-human* was gained or lost during this Armageddon you've got in your backstory.
*And I'm not talking about technology.
Beware ignoring difficulties with non-verbal communications. Like how in Robinson Crusoe they manage advanced theological debate by hand gestures...
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You’ve also missed Luther, a significant shift from aristocratic feudalism to monarchy, most of the Black Death and subsequent liberation of english serfs, the discovery of America & the sea route to India, throwing the muslims and jews out of Iberia, the abandonment of Greenland, I also think the prevalence of windmills and waterwheels, reasonably certain Turkey conquered lots of the Balkans…
You are right, there's allot you've missed. But I was pointing out that ontop of the big things, little things can change in strange and unforeseen ways.
Basically, you need to map out what the world was like 200 years ago, how it has changed. What events changed it, and how did those events enter into the lexicon.
There's a great war, that destroyed knowledge and basically set people back at least on the equivalent of the dark ages if not farther.
Hooligans, Vandals, Burburs, Turks. These are all tribal names, that took on additional meaning over the years/centuries. What did the battles, the attrocities, do. HOW did all this knowledge vanish. How did the engineers, architects, scientists, doctors (or their magical equivalents) die? How close to the brink of destruction did this world come. Who were the heroes, how did they survive.
There's probably a dozen more questions to answer. But, once you answer them, that will help you begin to shift the language.
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Beware ignoring difficulties with non-verbal communications.
:) I'm not ignoring them. I'm saying to map out conceptual and perception differences that might exist and affect NVC ahead of time, , create an NVC, then sort out the spoken word last, without focusing on language detail.
Like how in Robinson Crusoe they manage advanced theological debate by hand gestures...
Well, I know this one Jesuit who could probably could...
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You are right, there's allot you've missed. But I was pointing out that ontop of the big things, little things can change in strange and unforeseen ways.
Basically, you need to map out what the world was like 200 years ago, how it has changed. What events changed it, and how did those events enter into the lexicon.
There's a great war, that destroyed knowledge and basically set people back at least on the equivalent of the dark ages if not farther.
Hooligans, Vandals, Burburs, Turks. These are all tribal names, that took on additional meaning over the years/centuries. What did the battles, the attrocities, do. HOW did all this knowledge vanish. How did the engineers, architects, scientists, doctors (or their magical equivalents) die? How close to the brink of destruction did this world come. Who were the heroes, how did they survive.
There's probably a dozen more questions to answer. But, once you answer them, that will help you begin to shift the language.
Thanks for the input, but there's absolutely no way I'm writing an encyclopedia before I write a story. ;D
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Then stick to writing what you KNOW.
If you write a story and one of the main premises is etymological shift, expect to have the language mavens come down on it hard if you haven't done your research. If you write about someone being out of their own time, and the awkwardness of that, and ignore the language shift it will be a flub, but one we are all used to overlooking in popular Science Fiction, which frequently leaves out the tedium of needing translators.
Still, I think it could be worth the extra effort, to do it right. Especially since words have so much power! Even if there is no real magic attached to them.
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Ok, I'm in babble mode this morning -
Neologisms – When you introduce new words, or old words used in a new way, the reader will be looking for internal definitions. It is a really good idea to put one in. Although it is true that not fulfilling this reader expectation can be used to increase tension, you have to do it very, very well because if you screw it up the reader will stop reading. The point where new words are introduced is the point where readers most often decide to abandon a story.
Slang Back Stories- Use your created slang to tell part of the back story. Figure out the cultural impact of the back story. Make up words and usage that reflects that impact. Choose parts of the history your readers most need to understand to highlight in this way.
Grammar – Don't put all your language change into slang. Spend some time considering changes to grammar. Pull out your favorite grammar handbook (Harbrace or Transitive Vampire or http://englishplus.com/grammar/gsdeluxe.htm or whatever – You DO have a grammar, don't you?) and go through it, writing out examples of how the people in your story would phrase things as opposed to current usage. Keep in mind the effect of contrast in grammatical styles.
Example: A totalitarian society might be reflected in an overwhelming use of passive voice, sprinkled with characters who speak in commands where questions would be used in current American usage.
Example: The cascading structure of multiple prepositions is the hallmark of relaxed, casual, seductive conversation in an otherwise succinct business culture.
Narrative and dialog – Decide whether to use your lingual shift for both narrative and dialog or only dialog. Stick to that decision. I suppose there could be some case where the dialog is in currant usage and the narrative is shifted, but I can't think of any examples. It is sometimes easier to explain things to the reader if the narrative is in currant usage. However, if the narrative is strictly from the viewpoint of one of the characters then you pretty much have to use the upgraded linguistics in both.
Always keep your audience in mind. No matter how cool your lingual shift is, if the reader has no clue what is going on they aren't going to continue reading.
(Edited because Shecky is better at grammar than I am.)
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The cascading structure of multiple prepositions are is the hallmark of relaxed, casual, seductive conversation in an otherwise succinct business culture.
Sorry. I can't help it. :D
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Sorry. I can't help it. :D
Arrrrgggg!
You are correct. Thanks!
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Don't thank me. It's my tic, my personal obsessiveness. ;D
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Thanks for the input, but there's absolutely no way I'm writing an encyclopedia before I write a story. ;D
But understand, that your readers WILL build an encyclopedia as they are writing. And if you're very lucky, they'll take apart every single sentence you write as much as we take Jim's apart.
And, if as they're reading, the world doesn't make sense. They will stop reading, unless there is some other compelling part of the story.
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Then stick to writing what you KNOW.
If you write a story and one of the main premises is etymological shift, expect to have the language mavens come down on it hard if you haven't done your research. If you write about someone being out of their own time, and the awkwardness of that, and ignore the language shift it will be a flub, but one we are all used to overlooking in popular Science Fiction, which frequently leaves out the tedium of needing translators.
Still, I think it could be worth the extra effort, to do it right. Especially since words have so much power! Even if there is no real magic attached to them.
Well, the shift wasn't going to be a main premise, it was just a problem that sprang immediately to mind when I was envisioning some of the smaller scenes. If I were reading it and the two people involved had no difficulties understanding each other, I'd be the first to pipe up with "If it's been 200 years, why hasn't the language drifted?" Which started me thinking about how to convey it as a writer, without resorting to fake Olde Englishe.
I have a feeling I'll end up doing it, as someone suggested, mostly through idiom. I'm not enough of a linguist to do it up right for something that's really more of a speed bump than a major plot point (since the Rip Van Winklesque character is going to use a bit of magic, enter the handwavium!), and I've never been one for huge amounts of prep work. The more I do prior to writing, the less I want to write. I don't even outline for that reason.
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Read The Forever War by Jack Haldeman for an example of temporal shifts in an otherwise unchanging language. Personally, I think they're done reasonably well, all things considered; the job is HUGE. If I were you, I'd pick some other plot point. :D
Joe Haldeman wrote The Forever War. Jack Haldeman, also an SF writer, was Joe Haldeman's brother.
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:o ::) :P ;D
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Joe Haldeman wrote The Forever War. Jack Haldeman, also an SF writer, was Joe Haldeman's brother.
I knew that... but apparently, my fingers forgot. :P
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Always remember that all langauge barriers immediately dissolve when the speaker raises their voice and talks more slowly. Every tourist knows this. ;)
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Always remember that all langauge barriers immediately dissolve when the speaker raises their voice and talks more slowly. Every tourist knows this. ;)
Unless you are talking to another traveler from your own country, while in public, and talking about how stupid the natives of the area are. In that case not one of the thirty people glaring at you speaks your language no matter how loud and obnoxious you are.
::)
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Well, the shift wasn't going to be a main premise, it was just a problem that sprang immediately to mind when I was envisioning some of the smaller scenes. If I were reading it and the two people involved had no difficulties understanding each other, I'd be the first to pipe up with "If it's been 200 years, why hasn't the language drifted?" Which started me thinking about how to convey it as a writer, without resorting to fake Olde Englishe.
I have a feeling I'll end up doing it, as someone suggested, mostly through idiom. I'm not enough of a linguist to do it up right for something that's really more of a speed bump than a major plot point (since the Rip Van Winklesque character is going to use a bit of magic, enter the handwavium!), and I've never been one for huge amounts of prep work. The more I do prior to writing, the less I want to write. I don't even outline for that reason.
Then, what exactly are you expecting to get out of this posting? Because we can help... if you have something you want suggestions and help with... or if all you are looking for is an "Oh! Cool thought." We can say that.
You have to understand that some of the folks in here make a living out of language, or like Shecky, TWO languages.
Some of us do it as a hobby. We are passionate, and if you are looking to make lingual drift a part of your story, we are ready, willing and able to froth heavily from the mouth.
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Something you may want to consider is the rise of a particular dialect of the language. Say, for example, you've set it in the future U.S. but the predominant North American English is now Canadian. Or it's become something like Gullah (and if you pay attention to the tendencies within street English, this doesn't seem farfetched). Again, this last one recalls a part of Joe Haldeman's The Forever War.
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Yeah, see, and I was thinking something like a profusion of a sub dialect into predominance due to a shift in social status, or survival of a specific pandemic... suddenly proper language might be full of cringers, like all the double negatives and stuff like acrossed , don't got none, masonary.
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I have no problem with people defending the things they're passionate about. :) I'm just not the sort of person who writes books in order to write a story. I don't outline, I don't pre-plot, I don't draw maps, I don't do character sketches, I don't do chapter summaries. If I'm gonna do all that, why on earth would I then go on to write the story? It's already written, albeit in a non-linear form. I understand for some people "all that" is part of the fun of the craft. For me, it's the kiss of death, and will satisfy any desire I have to tell the story so it would never get written in a narrative format.
I asked because I was wondering how other people would convey the difference. What bits of grammatical finesse I might employ that would get across that there's a gap between the way he speaks and the way she does, and best case do so in a way that the dialogue itself tells you he's speaking an older form of the same language she is. Sprinkling his speech with "thee" and "thou" and throwing in random "-eth" suffixes isn't the answer. I like the use of idiom, though that'll require a deft touch. Pulling it off for the first twenty or so pages should be fun. And I might use more formal English when he speaks.
The use of magic to solve the problem will, however, be a major plot point. He uses magic (of a sort). No one else does, could, or would. It's why he's being chased, and will be the central conflict of the story. He wants to restore the world to what it was. And the world-that-is took a lot of effort to create; it's not going to want to change and possibly it shouldn't. Change is rarely peaceful.
I'm sorry you're peeved I declined the advice to do a lot of research and map out the geopolitical history of the fantasy world in order to answer this question. Or maybe you're peeved at the way I declined it. I wasn't clear enough in the question, I suppose, or my amusement at the answer might be more understandable. It's akin to being asked, "So, in this very first bit, my characters are on horseback though they're mainly going to be in one place through the rest of the book. Still, even though it's a momentary hiccup, I was wondering how you'd convey that they're riding at a fast pace while talking?" and then getting an answer back telling you to first decide how the past 3,000 years have shaped the horse breeds in your fantasy world. It made me smile.
I'd never look for validation about whether an idea is cool or not. Story ideas are like Schrodinger's Cat: they're both at the same time as long as they're just sitting in a box. You have to open the box, write them down, before they'll find a fate.
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Who's peeved? Not I. All I'm saying here is that if you're wanting to do a lingual shift and you don't have a background as a linguist, you're going to end up pretty much having to do a fair amount of research and pre-organizational stuff. Sort of like if you were planning to base a story in a certain place that you've never visited and never before studied - if the story hinges even somewhat on the particulars of that place, research is inescapable.
Oh, and about Schroedinger's Cat: did anyone think to ask the cat? :D
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You never sound peeved, Shecky dearest. :* :)
And of course no one asked the cat. You tell the cat it's not allowed in the box, and in it goes.
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Oh, and about Schroedinger's Cat: did anyone think to ask the cat? :D
The whole thing is a complicated and subtle experiment the cats are doing on us. Really.
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The whole thing is a complicated and subtle experiment the cats are doing on us. Really.
QUIET. Or our feline overlords might hear and begin to suspect we're starting to emerge from the feline-Jedi mass-mindtrick.
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I would NEVER recommend anyone use a fake affectation of "ye olde Englishe" First of all because nobody seems to get that the Y in Ye is really a thorn and pronounced th. People shouldn't even use it at ren faires.
If you are going to show a language shift, just pull words out and switch their meaning. "Bimbo" was originally a "fellow," ( coined in 1919) by 1920 it was a "floozie," and today no one says "Bimbo" without evoking a strictly female image.
No changes in spelling or pronunciation are needed, no excuses need to be made, you just chose a word and make it mean what you want.
Don't hang a lamp on it.
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Don't hang a lamp on it.
It would be gigglesomely satirical if Armaggedon got rid of verbs, so future generations verb their nouns.
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Heh. One of the reasons I like Cajun French is that it retains lots of OLD French vocab/grammar/turns of phrase (which makes sense, as the French core of the dialect was pretty much frozen in the 17th century) that are archaic or quaint at the LEAST today. Example: there's a term of endearment, "catin" (sort of "doll"), that is still used among Cajuns, but in France-French, it's become exclusively slang for "prostitute". :D
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Wasn't there a shift like that for 'morue'?
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Canadian French. I especially like how Québécois French uses so many religious-object terms as swear words. ;D
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It would be gigglesomely satirical if Armaggedon got rid of verbs, so future generations verb their nouns.
When they came for the verbs, I said nothing, for verbing weirds language. Then they arrival for the nouns: I speech nothing, for I no verbs.
(".. your nouns can't verb, and if they can't verb then they ain't no nouns of mine.")
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Canadian French. I especially like how Québécois French uses so many religious-object terms as swear words. ;D
Depending on which particular bit of Denys Arcand you watch the subtitles of, "tabernak" gets translated as anything from "for Pete's sake" to f-bomb levels of seriousness.
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When they came for the verbs, I said nothing, for verbing weirds language. Then they arrival for the nouns: I speech nothing, for I no verbs.
(".. your nouns can't verb, and if they can't verb then they ain't no nouns of mine.")
GWADZ!
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When they came for the verbs, I said nothing, for verbing weirds language. Then they arrival for the nouns: I speech nothing, for I no verbs.
(".. your nouns can't verb, and if they can't verb then they ain't no nouns of mine.")
Ah, the Calvinization of language.
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GWADZ!
Bless you.
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Bless you.
:) Unfortunately the Keats cybrid never gets that line.
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'Splainy.
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'Splainy.
Sorry, a Hyperion Cantos allusion. There is one chapter where the John Keats cybrid is pestering the AI Ummon for page after page of Zen koan response. Only to have the whole thing end in one 'GWADZ!' datasquirt of amused bathos.
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Don't forget that governments have tried to use the "eradicate the language to eradicate the culture" card. Language is power!