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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: I_hate_lotr on December 27, 2021, 03:31:05 AM
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Lasciel is repeatedly called a her or she. The only problem is Angel's are not female. When they took on human form to create nephilim they took on male form. So if she isn't an angel, what is she?
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Lasciel’s a Fallen Angel known as the Seducer, to achieve that purpose Lasciel identified a gender, and that is how ‘she’ is perceived and now perceives ‘herself.’
In the case of Uriel his identification as ‘he’ is purely due to the perceptions of those ‘he’ has interacted with.
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It is all about gender self identification :)
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Understand that in the books what she is called. Just saying maybe she isn't a fallen angel. That this lie has been going on for a long time.
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It is all about gender self identification :)
The TV show Lucifer had it that Angels self actualised, beyond gender this covered their powers, mortality, wings and ability to reproduce..
Everything would appear to indicate Lasciel is a “Fallen” Angel unless you are saying that there are actually no “Fallen” angels, only angels playing the part on behest of the White God as part of his/her ineffable plan, but how could we know? It’s effing ineffable!
This would mean the Knights of the Cross are nothing but unwitting Participants in the ultimate LARP (except Butters where it is certainly quite witting on his part, he is the biggest geek in the Multiverse).
The other angel we know about is Mac, who retired. Did he retire just because he got fed up with the LARPing? Doesn’t seem to have done him any good, so you would think he would spill the beans and sing like a canary to the mortals.
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Understand that in the books what she is called. Just saying maybe she isn't a fallen angel. That this lie has been going on for a long time.
She is by definition a fallen since she is bound in the Denarius. That could change if it served the convenience of the story. But Butcher would have to tell us.
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There is also post biblical stories and art and non christian or even non abrahamic traditions. also Jim is a god in his own world, if he wants to add to the stories he very well can do so.
If you look for Lasciel on the internet your hits are all about the dresden files, there is no outside source for her story as far as I can find. Jim needed a female fallen angel to stand for temptation and here she is.
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She is by definition a fallen since she is bound in the Denarius. That could change if it served the convenience of the story. But Butcher would have to tell us.
Maybe she just fell in with a bad crowd and it was peer pressure like with Crowley (actually I think that several Fallen got intrigued with aspects of the human condition, like Namshiel and magic rather than directly rebelling against the White God). In Laschiels case it appears to be sex and pancakes.
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As a noir character she's a trope. The femme fatale leading our hero around by sex. Chaste or wanton. Depending on which serves her purpose at a given point in time. Butcher could have done better.
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Maybe she just fell in with a bad crowd and it was peer pressure like with Crowley
Pretty sure there was some WOJ that she got exiled for trying to play both sides for her own ends during Lucifer's rebellion. Which kind of explains why her relationship with the other 29 is mostly transactional, rather than being a proper member in the Anduriel/Nic or Imariel/Tessa cabals.
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I suspect that the interrelationships of the Denarian’s are far more complex than we have been shown to date why else would such care be taken to hide information about them?
Namshiel appears to have thrown in his lot with Marcone, less than happy with Nick, we know that there are also a hidden faction working with the Black Council that worries Nick, Lasciel is suddenly interested in her child with Harry and willing to make an alliance but not out of obeisance to Nick, out of necessity.
Nick’s power over the Denarians is at its weakest in 2,000 years, so we may see more a mere two books after Next Book. We may find out who was the Denarian on the Black Council (I call Tessa, it will hurt Nick the most, and he had little control over her, I think Nick kept Namshiel on a very tight reign, his speech was archaic suggesting Nick put him in cold storage when he didn’t need him for big magic )
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Namshiel appears to have thrown in his lot with Marcone, less than happy with Nick, we know that there are also a hidden faction working with the Black Council that worries Nick, Lasciel is suddenly interested in her child with Harry and willing to make an alliance but not out of obeisance to Nick, out of necessity.
Nick’s power over the Denarians is at its weakest in 2,000 years, so we may see more a mere two books after Next Book. We may find out who was the Denarian on the Black Council (I call Tessa, it will hurt Nick the most, and he had little control over her, I think Nick kept Namshiel on a very tight reign, his speech was archaic suggesting Nick put him in cold storage when he didn’t need him for big magic)
Mostly agreed. Namshiel seems to have been more aligned with Tessa than Nic, though. And his archaic speech was probably more a function of not caring enough about human affairs to keep up to date - he kept his last host tightly enslaved and mostly just focused on his magical experiments for quite a while up until Michael killed that host.
Realizing there is a Black Council mole among the Denarians and suspecting 1) it's Tessa 2) she's setting him up as her scapegoat ... that would make a real good motivation to strike out on his own. Maybe coming to more of a partnership relationship with Marcone is a product of realizing he can't afford to be the magic nerd anymore, and needs a power base independent of being part of anyone else' cabal.
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But Namshiel has updated himself as apparent from Battle Ground,
Namshiel is the most powerful magic user, amongst the Denarians more so than Tessa and much more than Cassius, the former somewhat antagonistic to Nick, the latter slavish. I wonder if the relationship related to power level? Namshiel too powerful to left to his own devices, but far to useful to not use him on occasion. Note he hadn’t previously been used on the Fake Shroud, was Nick only going to let him ‘out’ to help generate the plague, not get the Fake Shroud?
I suspect Marcone fed his inner nerd by buying books and materials and getting a no talent mortal up to wizard level as an interesting project. Nick probably never read Pratchett so didn’t know the best way to keep a nerd imprisoned is just provide them with all the materials they need and a workroom. No need for a door lock.
His time with Marcone may be the longest he has been ‘out’ in millennia
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After careful consideration I think this question is going nowhere. I guess it's kind of like asking if water is really wet
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It tickles me that people romanticize characters like Namshiel. He got stuck in a coin for a reason. Inhabiting Marcone is like hitting the lottery for a Denarian. If you want to have maximum leverage then you look for the right fulcrum. If Mab can, she will hammer him, she owes him and she pays her debts.
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My favourite fan theory is Lasciel was once Ishtar a Bablynoian Goddess of Love and War.... but admittedly Jim has said any fan theory he has to have to learned Ancient Babylonian for is unlikely.
As for Namshiel. From Marcones perspective he tried doing things God's way with the Shroud of Turin trying to wake up coma girl. So he went to the other team. Pretty classic jilted criminal trope logic.
As for Gender in Angels. It's something I've toyed with in my own idea for Angelic characters. Like Raphael could just as easily be Rachael, depending on how much phlegm you put in the p/c-h. Makes for a pretty good non-binary in my head. Plus some Angel names can apply to both genders. Gabriel for instance.
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After careful consideration I think this question is going nowhere. I guess it's kind of like asking if water is really wet
Technically water isn't wet. Wet is the property of solid objects when a liquid like water adheres to it.
Secondly, don't insult other people and/or their threads. If you have nothing useful and polite to contribute, then don't post at all.
I have warned you before, if you can't follow that basic precept then further action will be taken.
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Technically water isn't wet. Wet is the property of solid objects when a liquid like water adheres to it.
Sorry to nitpick, but ice cubes in water is a solid object (water at the freezing point) where a liquid like water (above the freezing point) adheres to the solid.
So yes, you can have an interesting, polite, entertaining and reasoned debate on how wet is water.
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Water physics?
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Sorry to nitpick, but ice cubes in water is a solid object (water at the freezing point) where a liquid like water (above the freezing point) adheres to the solid.
So yes, you can have an interesting, polite, entertaining and reasoned debate on how wet is water.
No need to apologise, it's an interesting discussion to some (myself included).
I think you answer the problem though; ice is water in it's solid state. So we call it ice. Hence is isn't wet, yet it can become wet as well as making something wet.
The key thing with wetness is that a solid and a liquid is required, or that at least is my understanding.
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I'll don't see how I insulted anyone or thread. I made a statement. It was clearly stated they are the fallen. It really seems your singling me out over a grudge. Because I didn't word it to your liking. Conspiracy Theory goes off in that direction all the time, where were you then?
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I went and deleted every topic I posted just in case there was a slight chance it would offend anyone.
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It really isn't my problem if you can't understand what you did wrong.
I have given you more than enough chances, and instead of learning from them you have reacted childishly.
You were warned, and now you will have to live with the consequences. Failure to adhere to forum rules after repeated warnings results in a ban.
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The TV show Lucifer had it that Angels self actualised, beyond gender this covered their powers, mortality, wings and ability to reproduce..
Everything would appear to indicate Lasciel is a “Fallen” Angel unless you are saying that there are actually no “Fallen” angels, only angels playing the part on behest of the White God as part of his/her ineffable plan, but how could we know? It’s effing ineffable!
This would mean the Knights of the Cross are nothing but unwitting Participants in the ultimate LARP (except Butters where it is certainly quite witting on his part, he is the biggest geek in the Multiverse).
The other angel we know about is Mac, who retired. Did he retire just because he got fed up with the LARPing? Doesn’t seem to have done him any good, so you would think he would spill the beans and sing like a canary to the mortals.
We did see, briefly, at least two more, in Ghost Story. The security guard, whi shuts down Harry's Sight for his own good, and the Angel sent to escort Forthill to the afterlife if he died. That last angel presented as female.
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My favourite fan theory is Lasciel was once Ishtar a Bablynoian Goddess of Love and War.... but admittedly Jim has said any fan theory he has to have to learned Ancient Babylonian for is unlikely.
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I'm pretty sure "Ishtar" exists in the original (1e) AD&D "Deities & Demigods" book, and Jim's a known gamer.
Also, "Ishtar" is sort of cognate to Astarte & several other middle-eastern goddesses... including Asherah, an ancient Semitic goddess (who may have historically been the consort/wife/etc of Yaweh... )
"Ancient Babylonian" isn't the only way to get to Ishtar (or to one of the other ancient goddesses with links to love and/or eros...) .
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... Inhabiting Marcone is like hitting the lottery for a Denarian...
Agreed... long-term, John could become as potent for Namshiel as Nicodemus has been for Anduriel.
... If Mab can, she will hammer him, she owes him and she pays her debts ...
Do we know for sure that it was Namshiel at the assault on Arctis Tor?
I expect that *Mab* knows; but do we?
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Lasciel is repeatedly called a her or she. The only problem is Angel's are not female. When they took on human form to create nephilim they took on male form. So if she isn't an angel, what is she?
I don't think most Angels even have "gender" in the human sense; when/if they do, I don't think it's exclusively male.
But in the end, it doesn't really matter what real-world pin-dancing we do: as noted above by @Ed0517, at least one Dresdenverse angel was explicitly seen as female, so we KNOW for a fact they can be female in the Dresdenverse.
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Do we know for sure that it was Namshiel at the assault on Arctis Tor?
I expect that *Mab* knows; but do we?
Nothing is ever explicit in the Dresden Files but this is pretty close. Certainly Harry was quick to reveal to her that Marcone had accepted the coin. The is the compelling text.“The Black Council attack on Arctis Tor,” I said. “One of them used Hellfire.”
Mab showed me her snow-white teeth. “The Watchman and I,” Grimalkin mewled for her, “had a common enemy this day. The enemy could not be allowed to gain the power represented by the child Archive.”
I frowned and thought of the silver hand that had batted the fallen angel and his master sorceries around as if he’d been a stuffed practice dummy. “Thorned Namshiel.”
Mab’s eyes flashed with sudden, cold fury and frost literally formed over every surface of the chapel, including upon my own eyelashes.
“There are others yet who will pay for what they have done,”
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Do we know for sure that it was Namshiel at the assault on Arctis Tor?
I expect that *Mab* knows; but do we?
Nothing "confirmed" as in eye witnesses I guess you could say. However "hellfire" was used and it is implied that that is more of a wizard thing. Harry, because he is a wizard was able to use it when given access by Lasciel, so it is implied that it was Namshiel who used it at Arctis Tor. At the same time we don't know who else among the Denarians have that capability.
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It's not about who can throw hellfire, it's about who could throw hellfire at Arctis Tor. Thorned Namshiel was granted the power to run the spell at the Shedd, thus he we know he had the power to do it, much in the same way Lily gave Harry the power to throw Summer fire at the Scarecrow and the Wellspring.
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It's not about who can throw hellfire, it's about who could throw hellfire at Arctis Tor. Thorned Namshiel was granted the power to run the spell at the Shedd, thus he we know he had the power to do it, much in the same way Lily gave Harry the power to throw Summer fire at the Scarecrow and the Wellspring.
The point is, if the number of Denarians who are Hellfire capable are limited, that narrows down considerably who threw Hellfire at Arctis Tor. Example, it only three Denarians have the power to throw Hellfire, and only Denarians or wizards possessed by the Shadow of a Denarian, and up to that time there was only one, [Harry] then it has to be one of the four.. Process of elimination. I think it is a little different from Summer Fire.. But again only a limited number of suspects.
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It’s only three Denarians we know about.
Does even Nicky/Anduriel know where all the coins are? No because of Marcone.
We could posit a Black Council Wizard or Warlock Denarian able to wield Hellfifire who Nicky knows absolutely nothing about, he could account for the known Denarian practitioners and none of them were there. That’s what worried him a rogue coin in hands he can’t control.
We have only seen a percentage of the Denarians at any one time, we have never seen them all together. There could be a small faction working their own game.
For all we know Cowl is actually a rogue Denarian, keeping hidden from everyone, including Nicky and Anduriel. The Darkhallow could have been to upgrade his host and allow access to a much greater power level than the mortal host, or allow an amicable separation.
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I don't think Nico knows where all coins are at all times - or he'd have never let Harry leave Lasciel buried so long.
I do think eh knows wo all the Denarians are and their abilities. Now, could a Denarian who does not usually use magic give Hellfire to a warlock, different question. It may be the host body is a limiting factor. Maybe most vanilla humans cannot throw Hellfire, even with a coin.
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I don't think Nico knows where all coins are at all times - or he'd have never let Harry leave Lasciel buried so long.
Not that long for someone who lives for centuries. Having Harry as a denarian would have been worth a few years waiting.
We know because Nic was surprised when Harry did not have the coin in the end of smal favor.
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Both are examples that Nick doesn’t have the control over the Denarians that he holds out as having.
Tessa leads a faction already in the Denarians, she is going to be cagey with Nick about the number of her supporters as is he about his. Because of this mutual distrust there could easily be a small third faction of say three Denarians associated with the Black Council willing to let the others do their own thing whilst they play their own game and each presumes this faction is associated with the other. With Marcone/ Namshiel that would be four factions.
Nick gets loyalty because he can get the coins thanks to Anduriel, but if coins get back into circulation without him do they owe him any loyalty?
These are the Fallen, the first rebels, if someone else gets a coin say Cowl and gave it to a wizard then that Denarian owes loyalty to Cowl and the Black Council rather than Nick or Tessa.
What if Ancient Mai was worried about Mouse because he is semi-divine? Capable of potentially recognising that she is a Denarian (Mouse at this point had yet to come into his full power). Look at Mouses interactions with the divine he is “Little Cousin”. She could also potentially be behind My Shadow as she is familiar with Foo dogs. She is old by wizard standards, a coin would grant her further longevity and health something she could not otherwise get without necromancy and her heritage means she doesn’t come from a Judao Christian background unlike the rest of the Senior Council (except Listens to the Wind) she wouldn’t have the same attitude to the Fallen as most of the Senior Council.
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Why would the Fallen owe loyalty to anyone other than maybe Lucifer? They seem to have a low opinions of us monkeys. And if ancient Mai is a Nicklehead her Fallen is falling down of the job. Nick doesn't look a day over 100.
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Mai’s Age is known, she is oldest by quite a bit and suspiciously hale, so looking younger would be a problem when we have had foreshadowing for Martha, Listens to the wind and Eb all near the end despite all being younger.
Maybe Lucifer has a Plan B which is not Nicky and that’s the Black Council. Maybe it’s Nicky who is Plan B, he just doesn’t know it (now that would be a lovely revelation for everyone but Nicky) the visible face of the Denarians, whilst the hidden faction maintain a low profile and away from the Swords. I mean in recent years some idiot wizard has more or less stymied him single handed. Maybe Anduriel is in on it, loyal to Lucy rather than Nicky.
If so other members of the hidden faction would be ensconced in significant positions in other supernatural states mortal enough to pick up a coin. The White Court maybe through one of the minor Houses or Red for a half vampire before Harry killed them all, one of the Priestesses or Jaguar Warriors. If they had a coin they would have survived the aging of the blood-line curse for old half vamps. A a pre choice Changeling would be able to pick up a coin, maybe a Winter Changeling was responsible for Arctic Tor. In both cases they age slowly so it would be easy for them to live a long time and not pick up suspicion.
Red Court, White Court, Winter, Summer and the White Council all vulnerable to coins.
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Red Court, White Court, Winter, Summer and the White Council all vulnerable to coins.
Do we know the Fae and Vamps are vulnerable? Do they have souls to trade? a half red might. The White Council will.
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Do we know the Fae and Vamps are vulnerable? Do they have souls to trade? a half red might. The White Council will.
The genoskwa took one. Goodman Grey was offered one. Harry warned Thomas about touching them. These are all the non/half human coin interactions we know about.
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Changeling not chosen a Fae yes, Fix became the Summer Knight a Mantle for a mortal, despite being a Changeling.
Some Changelings have had powerful access amongst the Fae- Sarissa for example would be a potential candidate but she would have been forced to drop the coin when the Summer Mantle went to her removing her mortality. Mab couldn’t have engineered this could she?, knowing Sarissa was a Denarian she manipulated Maeve into killing Lily so the Summer Mantle would force the coin off of her, and put Sarissa in Summer away from defending the Gates in the knowledge she had Molly as a back up Winter Lady?
Actually, yes that sounds exactly like Mab.
If Sarissa was a Denarian picking the coin up to defend herself against Winter, would she have been kumori? I think so. Kumori healed that chap in Deadbeat, she would have known Lea would want the Athame in Grave Peril. She would know Arctic Tor for the attack on it to rescue Lea. Everyone tried to fit Kumori against female characters introduced before Dead Beat, we don’t meet Sarissa (which is a weapon, a Macedonian Pike) until much later on in Cold Days. She gave Mab the idea for the Frozen Ring for Maggie, pure evil.
It’s a Moot point on a half red vampire, you would have to find one first, you might have a former red of advanced age saved by his coin from immediate senescence.
Besides with Goodman Grey why bother with a blackened Denarius when a Peace Dollar would be just as effective at binding him.