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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: sinker on April 10, 2011, 05:52:32 PM

Title: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: sinker on April 10, 2011, 05:52:32 PM

I know the question seems a bit redundant, but hang with me for a second. The only way this matters of course is with wizard specializations and foci. Someone mentioned this in another thread and it got me thinking about a wizard putting all of his or her specializations and foci into offense and then using the offensive block to essentially defend (I.E. it prevents someone from attacking you) which seems a little unsportsmanlike...

Anyway, what do you all think? Are all blocks defensive by nature in that they prevent attacks from getting to you, or are they split into offensive and defensive categories determined by who they target?

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 10, 2011, 06:02:22 PM

This is and should remain up to each individual GM/group. I don't think that we should try to arrive at a ruling here.

I allow offensive blocks, although I don't especially like them.

PS: There should be a thread listing all the potential problems with spellcasting.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: sinker on April 10, 2011, 06:17:41 PM

Sorry, I suppose I wasn't completely clear. The question is would an offensive block be considered offensive or defensive for the purpose of specializations and foci. Mostly I'm just wondering what everybody's opinion is. This hasn't come up at my table, but it's a place where I can see potential abuse and so I thought it might be a good thing to mull over here.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 10, 2011, 06:22:17 PM

I understood. I meant, I allow people to use offensive foci on that sort of block.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: stitchy1503 on April 10, 2011, 07:50:33 PM

I personally would allow it if the block was actually offensive, like the Orbius example in the book.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 10, 2011, 08:14:06 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on April 10, 2011, 06:22:17 PM

I understood. I meant, I allow people to use offensive foci on that sort of block.

I would too.

IMHO, it's pretty easy to see when someone is trying to circumvent the system.  For instance, a few points into foci that do what is being described is one thing.  7 points of refinement dumped into offensive foci that are used to block all the time are quite another.

That said, an offensive block is not as versatile as a defensive block.  It's just not.  So someone offensive blocking is still rather gimped in defense.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: Tedronai on April 10, 2011, 09:24:59 PM

To clarify this situation, and several others (such as friendly maneuvers), I re-name the specializations from 'offensive' to 'detrimental' and from 'defensive' to 'beneficial'

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: Belial666 on April 10, 2011, 10:19:13 PM

How would that change affect the following types of spells?


1a) A veil (perception block) that blinds your sole enemy so he can't see to attack you.
1b) The same veil that blinds your enemy so he can't see your allies shooting him in the back.

2a) A veil making an ally invisible so an enemy cannot see them to hit them.
2b) The same veil used to make an ally invisible so they can shoot an enemy in the back without being seen.

3) A darkness spell (perception block) on the entire room when you have Cloak of Shadows or The Sight open and thus you can see through it while both allies and enemies cannot.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: Tedronai on April 10, 2011, 10:48:34 PM

1 a and b) detrimental to the target
2 a and b) beneficial to the target
3) detrimental to most people/things, you just happen to be immune

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 13, 2011, 05:02:38 AM

Quote from: Tedronai on April 10, 2011, 09:24:59 PM

To clarify this situation, and several others (such as friendly maneuvers), I re-name the specializations from 'offensive' to 'detrimental' and from 'defensive' to 'beneficial'

I really like this idea.  It saves some semantic issues, if nothing else.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: sinker on April 13, 2011, 05:09:55 PM

Quote from: Tedronai on April 10, 2011, 09:24:59 PM

To clarify this situation, and several others (such as friendly maneuvers), I re-name the specializations from 'offensive' to 'detrimental' and from 'defensive' to 'beneficial'

I've just realized the issue I have with the whole concept, or at least it's finally concrete in my head now. Here's the issue. I create a block, say I describe it as a kinetic buffering field, so that it slows attacks down. However let's say I decide to surround my enemies with it. I'm preventing one type of action so it can apply to multiple targets and to be safe I'll even spend 2 shifts to make it zone wide. It still prevents them from attacking me and my allies, but now it's a offensive (or detrimental) block. I can now throw all of my foci and specializations into offense and still have no issue defending. For that matter I can still veil, maneuver or anything else provided I target an enemy and not an ally. I think that's the part where this gets hazy.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 13, 2011, 06:24:59 PM

Quote from: sinker on April 13, 2011, 05:09:55 PM

I've just realized the issue I have with the whole concept, or at least it's finally concrete in my head now. Here's the issue. I create a block, say I describe it as a kinetic buffering field, so that it slows attacks down. However let's say I decide to surround my enemies with it. I'm preventing one type of action so it can apply to multiple targets and to be safe I'll even spend 2 shifts to make it zone wide. It still prevents them from attacking me and my allies, but now it's a offensive (or detrimental) block. I can now throw all of my foci and specializations into offense and still have no issue defending. For that matter I can still veil, maneuver or anything else provided I target an enemy and not an ally. I think that's the part where this gets hazy.

To be fair, it's going to happen.  The magic system is only limited by the scope and power of a player's imagination.  I don't think it's that big of a deal.  A zone offensive block works the same as a zone defensive block.  It takes 2 extra shifts of power, and lasts a finite amount of time.

I also think another way to deal with this is to enforce the rules in the book for foci.  The size of the object dictates how many points of focus an object can have, and carrying around two staffs everywhere is going to get looks and comments for any PC...

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: Belial666 on April 14, 2011, 12:38:57 AM

Unless you make one a staff and the other a piece of clothing like robes or a cloak. As Elaine pointed out to Harry, phallic shape is not mandatory.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 14, 2011, 04:20:03 AM

Quote from: Belial666 on April 14, 2011, 12:38:57 AM

Unless you make one a staff and the other a piece of clothing like robes or a cloak. As Elaine pointed out to Harry, phallic shape is not mandatory.

True...

But still, just like the munchkin artificer build we like throw around on the forums a lot, that amount of power in items is going to get attention from the supernatural community and inhuman creatures in particular.

ALL POWER COMES WITH A PRICE seems to be the recurring theme/aspect of the series and the RPG.  I think that regardless of what a player chooses to do, make, play as, etc, as long as the GM remembers that aspect of play, everything will work out.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: toturi on April 14, 2011, 09:07:05 AM

ALL POWER COMES WITH A PRICE is probably a recurring theme only due to Harry's THE TEMPTATION OF POWER being his trouble. Frankly, in those stories in DF that do not feature Harry Dresden as the protagonist, it doesn't come up.

In fact, when the spotlight is on other characters, I feel that POWER'S LOW LOW PRICE seems to be more appropriate.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 14, 2011, 09:54:38 AM

Quote from: toturi on April 14, 2011, 09:07:05 AM

ALL POWER COMES WITH A PRICE is probably a recurring theme only due to Harry's THE TEMPTATION OF POWER being his trouble. Frankly, in those stories in DF that do not feature Harry Dresden as the protagonist, it doesn't come up.

In fact, when the spotlight is on other characters, I feel that POWER'S LOW LOW PRICE seems to be more appropriate.

I don't know how you can possibly get that....

(click to show/hide)

Like... what about in aftermath when Murph has to decide whether or not to get the sword? What about (I forgot the name of the story) where Harry protects the Carpenter family and gets hit with the .50 BMG round.  Michael's involvement as a sword of the cross and his decision to give it to Harry endangered his family. Those are just two examples that neatly tie in with what I was talking about.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: toturi on April 14, 2011, 12:05:47 PM

Quote from: BumblingBear on April 14, 2011, 09:54:38 AM

(click to show/hide)

Like... what about in aftermath when Murph has to decide whether or not to get the sword? What about (I forgot the name of the story) where Harry protects the Carpenter family and gets hit with the .50 BMG round.  Michael's involvement as a sword of the cross and his decision to give it to Harry endangered his family. Those are just two examples that neatly tie in with what I was talking about.

(click to show/hide)

That part in Aftermath about Murph was more about her overcoming her fear and about her oath and her duty than the price of power, that back and forth about the Sword was simply justification for her to overcome her fear. In Warrior, Harry was involved, Michael gets dragged along for the ride; he had already given up the Sword, so that situation would not be so much the price of power but the price of not having that power. The examples you quote are, as far as I am concerned, only tenuously connected to what you are talking about.

I can see how you can make those connections from these example to that Aspect but I think that there are simply too many degrees of seperation between these issues to make a direct connection. The further removed from Harry the protagonist, the less the question of power and its price comes into play.

Title: Re: Are Offensive Blocks Offensive?
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 14, 2011, 02:34:53 PM

Quote from: sinker on April 13, 2011, 05:09:55 PM

I've just realized the issue I have with the whole concept, or at least it's finally concrete in my head now. Here's the issue. I create a block, say I describe it as a kinetic buffering field, so that it slows attacks down. However let's say I decide to surround my enemies with it. I'm preventing one type of action so it can apply to multiple targets and to be safe I'll even spend 2 shifts to make it zone wide. It still prevents them from attacking me and my allies, but now it's a offensive (or detrimental) block. I can now throw all of my foci and specializations into offense and still have no issue defending. For that matter I can still veil, maneuver or anything else provided I target an enemy and not an ally. I think that's the part where this gets hazy.

And then that one guy that you hadn't noticed turns up behind you and shoots you in the back.

Flippancy aside, I think this is an important point. The offensive blocks you're using rely on knowing the enemy's there and being able to do things to him. Most of the time, you're fine- but there are situations where it won't work and, if I was GMing a game with someone exploiting this, word would start to get round the supernatural community about how he operates- and his enemies would start using traps and ambushes a lot more.