@Niall(click to show/hide)
One more theory -- Thomas came home from the troubling conversation with Harry (and Eb) and started getting emotional about the problems of raising a White Court baby and the risk to Justine of the pregnancy and Justine finally told him the shocking truth: it's not his baby. In Bombshells, while he was servicing the Svartalves, Justine had a quickie of her own with Etri, the baby's actual father.
I think this being, in anyway, a Fomor plot is shaky. The Fomor have literally 0 reasons to care about infighting with the Accords Nations. They are kicking off their war, and they don't care about what the other side is doing. Thus there are no reasons for the Fomor to be behind Justine's or Thomas' actions.I think the Fomor or their allies threatened Thomas by saying the would go after pregnent Justine. They see the Svartalves as a threat and want payback for killing one of their nobles in Bombshells.
Eb using some black magic on the other hand to force Thomas is an interesting theory. This would cause Harry to lose any trust he has in Eb. Plus it would suit Eb's plans. He hates the White Court. Them being destroyed or very hurt in a war would very much please him. Though you have to ask the question of why are the feds watching Justine? They shouldn't even have her on their radar. So maybe its something else to do with the government. That whole plotline makes no sense because no one really benefits from it. And I don't see it being resolved very well in Battlegrounds because that book will take place during 1 day if not just the night. Thomas will still be locked up for most if not all the book. All the signs are pointing to Justine causing the assassination, but yet again we are left with no reasons or even any clues about a possible reason why this would happen. I just hope we get payoff otherwise it will be a stupid plotline that went nowhere and has no relevance.
I think the Fomor or their allies threatened Thomas by saying the would go after pregnent Justine. They see the Svartalves as a threat and want payback for killing one of their nobles in Bombshells.
I think they see Dresden as a threat and sent Rudolph to go after Murphy and Harry to distract him. Having Thomas be in trouble also distracts Dresden. As Marcone said, they want to divide their enemies and take them out one at a time. It could be Cowl or Outsiders. They seem to be Fomor allies. They want Dresden and the Svartalves to be at odds too.
I have a different theory that...maybe fits. Thomas was tricked/coerced/whatever by Mab.I remember thinking early on in the book that Lara used her first favor from Mab to get Mab to force Thomas, via a favor he owed Mab, to make the attempt.
We know that Mab has favors outstanding with various people and has been trying to balance the books (Skin Game involved cancelling a favor owed to Nicodemus, which is its own WTF). IIRC, Lara Raith picked up three favors from Mab, who has taken care of one of them as of the beginning of Peace Talks. I believe Lara then uses both of the remaining favors during Peace Talks to force the rescue of Thomas, which gets Mab free of those obligations.
(Alternately, Mab didn't set up Thomas, but knew enough in advance to take advantage of the situation with respect to her debt to Lara. This might be more likely, though it leaves the "why, Thomas?" question unanswered.)
I also strongly feel that Justine is behind/in on it.(click to show/hide)
For one thing, I'm not convinced Thomas was trying to say "Justine".Thomas never said Justine. I think the quote is "Justin-" and "J". Harry responds he's going to look out or take care of or already has taken care of Justine both times. Thomas responds with sobs or something similar both times. If it was Justin Dumorne, then mind magic and an f-you to Harry is a good explanation for why Thomas did it.
I also strongly feel that Justine is behind/in on it.In the case of Justin, or any other nefarious actor, the target wouldn't be Etri dying. It'd be ideal, but the true win would be Thomas killing Etri, the Svartalves killing Thomas immediately, and Harry flying off the handle a la Red Court on the eve of the peace talks. If it'd worked, The Wamps would not be working with the Svartalves and vice versa, Harry would be pissed at the Svartalves and in turn they'd be suspicious of him and Winter, the Council would continue to assume the worst and see Harry going off as a sign he's going warlock, and the whole thing would have fallen apart even before Mab got her teeth adjusted by Ethniu.
1) Eb makes a big deal about someone stabbing Harry in the back.
2) Someone is leaking information from the White Court.
3) Niall001's last sentence is a credible interpretation, especially within the context I provide below.
4) All the interest in Justine. She's more important than just Thomas's baby mama.
Counterpoint:Thomas never said Justine. I think the quote is "Justin-" and "J". Harry responds he's going to look out or take care of or already has taken care of Justine both times. Thomas responds with sobs or something similar both times. If it was Justin Dumorne, then mind magic and an f-you to Harry is a good explanation for why Thomas did it.
We really don't have any suggestion as to why Thomas did it other than someone threatening Justine. Harry does hint that maybe Thomas failing to kill Etri was intentional. We also don't have anything in this book as to why someone was trying to kill Etri.
Read Sun Tzu's the Art of War - all warfare is based on deception.I prefer overwhelming force. ;). Because I had to google it, BPRD is Bureau for Paranormal Research and Defense.
...
BPRD.
I prefer overwhelming force. ;). Because I had to google it, BPRD is Bureau for Paranormal Research and Defense.Or a young Thomas saw Justin at Raith's house after Margaret left. They were supposedly contemporaries, and there are theories that they were all plotting together. No reason to think that came to a stop after Margaret left.
The surmountable problem with Thomas trying to warn Harry about Justin is Thomas shouldn't recognize Justin. Justin could have ignored the Evil Overlord List and taunted Thomas by revealing information.
Also, how confirmed is it that Thomas was the assassin vs. Thomas being framed?
There are probably a handful of characters that could pull that off, but...the intended result would have to be Etri not dying, since I don't think it's plausible that someone could so thoroughly penetrate svartelf security (completely undetected!) and miss their shot at Etri.
This may be naive of me, but...I'm really inclined to believe that Lara Raith was playing things straight in Peace Talks, and I'm not sure even Goodman Grey could have fooled her at that close a range for that length of time. On the boat, she was interacting with Thomas Hunger-to-Hunger in order to keep him alive, and I don't see how Lara could be hoaxed at that point.Yeah, that was Thomas. Nothing was going to fool Lara with that kind of interaction.
Or a young Thomas saw Justin at Raith's house after Margaret left. They were supposedly contemporaries, and there are theories that they were all plotting together. No reason to think that came to a stop after Margaret left.Or before Margaret left and after Thomas was born.
I'm pretty sure Justine made him do it. With the proviso that I'm not certain if what we see is really Justine and that I don't know if was some form of mind control or just blackmail. Thomas keeps saying her name as a warning.
I'm not saying that the True Love angle makes Justine a saint, or definitely inclined to make the best choices, but practically by definition, it must make her loyal to Thomas. I'll accept theories where she was genuinely deceived, but not ones where she willingly betrayed Thomas. She's been quite consistently devoted to him.
Mother's love versus true love, it's an angle I personally would accept.
When was the last time that Justine was shown to have True Love protection? Turn Coat?She apparently had it in the epilogue of Ghost Story, where she had to strategically break it by bringing in a third wheel to their party. The idea was to have it turn on and off again every time they got together, but we never got confirmation if it worked that way or not. For all we know, it was on after the time Justine got pregnant, but off again after a session with Evanna, and he can't get it back for Justine because it would require sex feeding, which might complicate the pregnancy and risk Justine.
If Justine doesn't have true love protection after GS, it's because their fundamental devotion to each other has shifted. BR was a decade before PT.Wasn't Justine providing intel on the Wamps to Harry a few books back?
We're told Harry is going to be betrayed. We have no idea what led to Thomas attacking the Svartalves. Justine has a lot of people watching her. Someone is leaking White Court secrets.
Justine is a better guess than any I've seen.
Harry remarked on it in Skin Game. Because we're reading books instead of investigating a real world incident, it stands to reason that we can figure everything out with the information provided. That means it's very likely that we know who is leaking from or spying on the White Court. Harry suggests the White Council, and that's entirely plausible. Who else do we know who could be doing it? Either Thomas or Justine. So we only have three options. If it was Thomas, why wasn't he trying to warn Harry that he needed help?So in PT, Lara thinks it must be a wizard of the council's caliber to have their spying method not discovered. But that's also because she doesn't believe her people will betray her. And the leak has only been occurring for a few weeks, overlapping Justine's pregnancy, which is only about 6 weeks in.
There are rules that govern good fiction, genre fiction, fiction I enjoy, fiction any particular person reading this post enjoys, etc. If we understand any or all of these sets of rules, we can make pretty good guesses.
Jim usually doesn't have things come from nowhere. Therefore, the leaker isn't coming from nowhere. We know whoever it is, or it's Harry's proffered explanation of "a wizard did it."
“One of the people surveilling Justine is the person who threatened her,” Murphy said. “And they must have given Thomas an ultimatum. And because he’s an idiot like you, Harry, he didn’t tell her about it.”There are three groups watching and Gary and Gray. Cowl or Marcone is the cops. I make the FBI for the MIB, and the last group is Lara's people. Right or wrong that's Harry's candidates.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 226). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
There are three groups watching and Gary and Gray. Cowl or Marcone is the cops. I make the FBI for the MIB, and the last group is Lara's people. Right or wrong that's Harry's candidates.
I've long thought Thomas infected by Nemesis, ever since he ate Justine's insanity with most of her life force.
I don't think he actually did that. After BR Justine used medications to get herself under control, IIRC.
“What’s going on?” I demanded. “How are you walking around like this?”
“It doesn’t matter right now,” Justine said. “I’m better.”
“You aren’t crazy, are you?” I demanded. “You nearly scratched my eyes out that one time.”
She shook her head with a frustrated little motion. “Medication. It isn’t . . . Look, I’m all right for now. I need you to listen to me.”
Butcher, Jim. White Night (The Dresden Files, Book 9) Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I don't think he actually did that. After BR Justine used medications to get herself under control, IIRC.medications would make her a different kind of wreck imo. I don't see it petmenantly changing her, and most of those kinds of meds would not mix with a pregnancy I am thinking, from fringe experience. Things taking big enough bites that it tears into the soul on the other hand has been seen multiple times, what Kravos did to Harry (an I say it reached that deep per woj harry didn't keep Kravos' power because no life force was involved, but Kravos' had no Problem holding onto Harry's), what happened to Daniel in PG, and the indeed, the main correlation to eating Infection, Molly lost hers to the scarecrow I feel sure.
medications would make her a different kind of wreck imo.
I don't see it petmenantly changing her
most of those kinds of meds would not mix with a pregnancy I am thinking
Things taking big enough bites that it tears into the soul on the other hand has been seen multiple times,
the main correlation to eating Infection, Molly lost hers to the scarecrow I feel sure.
If a non-starborn wizard were to do what Harry did to the cornerhounds -- opening his mind up to the Outside -- would that kind of Corruption be Nemesis? Or just another kind of madness?
Re: Justine's madness -- if Thomas's feeding was the only thing keeping her sane, what's going to happen to her when Thomas is locked away in a cell??
There's a bit of ambiguity between actual Nemesis infection (like Cait Sith or Lea) and Corruption (like warlocks). For the most part, the line is clear -- Cait Sith was nemfected, the mind-control warlock at the start of Proven Guilty was corrupted, but what about the corruption of a 7th-law warlock?
Nemesis doesn’t need to infect mortals, their free will means they can decide to work with Nemesis of their own volition. What they probably are though are a disease vector, they can be used to infect immortals. A mortal whistles in an Outsider, and becomes infected, the mortal summons up another powerful entity, and the infection passes in its entirety to the other entity, maximum viral load all at one time. My guess is that if Nemesis is a single entity split between multiple bodies like the corner Hounds then it has a finite amount of itself and won’t waste it on the powerless or ineffectual and will seek allies where possible.I think Nemesis can infect mortals. I also think your Hounds/Nemesis connection would be a good limiter on why Nemesis can't just infect everyone. It might work that Nemesis needs different amounts of power (viral load) to infect different hosts, so it can infect a Lady or a dozen lower powered Sidhe, for example.
Do you mean Molly? She controlled minds that is what made her a warlock at the beginning of Proven Guilty.
I was thinking of the nameless Korean kid who was executed for dramatic effect at the start of the book.
I think Nemesis can infect mortals. I also think your Hounds/Nemesis connection would be a good limiter on why Nemesis can't just infect everyone. It might work that Nemesis needs different amounts of power (viral load) to infect different hosts, so it can infect a Lady or a dozen lower powered Sidhe, for example.idk, likely Nemesis can come and go in those already compromised,like, they're tainted but not under direct influence or overpowered. I originally thought this from the scene in PG where mouse growls at molly but then just looks confused, Nemesis saw a foo dog and ran like a mofo, after reading zoo day I could see why, Mouse could chase it back to where it lives. That makes him a rather dangerous threat.
I'm finishing my reread (that I failed to complete before Peace Talks) and in Cold Days right now... I'll know for sure tonight of maybe tomorrow... BUT Cait Sith, Thomas owes him a favor. And did he die, or just get knocked into the lake? How many people are explicitly told about the cat's Nfection? Could we be missing something there? Just a thought I had at the debt incurred scene, and wanted to put up before I finished Cold Days.
Ooh. And Cait Sith would absolutely threaten to do awful things to Justine and the baby if the favor isn't returned.Especially since Maeve had all her fae abilities but could break the rules. Meaning Sith could enter their domicile and possibly break guest law.
idk, likely Nemesis can come and go in those already compromised,like, they're tainted but not under direct influence or overpowered. I originally thought this from the scene in PG where mouse growls at molly but then just looks confused, Nemesis saw a foo dog and ran like a mofo, after reading zoo day I could see why, Mouse could chase it back to where it lives. That makes him a rather dangerous threat.I think it's a big assumption that Molly is infected.
I'm finishing my reread (that I failed to complete before Peace Talks) and in Cold Days right now... I'll know for sure tonight of maybe tomorrow... BUT Cait Sith, Thomas owes him a favor. And did he die, or just get knocked into the lake? How many people are explicitly told about the cat's Nfection? Could we be missing something there? Just a thought I had at the debt incurred scene, and wanted to put up before I finished Cold Days.It was a small favor.
I think it's a big assumption that Molly is infected.I think it's a very small assumption, warlocks are quite literally replaced by inhuman beings, there's a plot, if not against her(although the case can and has been made for that) then certainly to save her in PG. She's told to use fear while violating free will and Leah changes how she operates by showing her the fae way of using fear without violating the laws, which leads her to become a better candidate for winter lady. Then we have fearbringer who manifests itself from the supernatural fear Molly specifically has caused or fed. It having the functional form of the scarecrow, his height, while wearing what amounts to the ragged cloth described in GS as what is left of Harry's duster which she used as her calling card earning her the name rag lady. I personally think it's a big assumption to think she's not, or that quite clearly more is not going on there then explicitly said.
It was a small favor.
Plus Eb. Harry shows up to look for someone keeping an eye on Justine. He spends an hour and a half looking for magical surveillance, finds nothing, and then has Eb decloak at his rear and call him an idiot for not spotting him.
Eb has a plausible explanation for why he's there, but he's also perfectly capable of hiding himself from Harry (as he did) and if it had been any other wizard veiled near Justine's place he would have jumped to the top of the list.
Alternative theory: The White Council was spying on Justine, which means Martha Liberty's spy network and scrying spells way, way too subtle for Harry to spot them. And it probably means Liberty alerted Eb to his former apprentice skulking around at Justine's place.
No he doesn't. We know Justine's place is a good place to look for Harry because we've read all the books. Ebenezer shouldn't have a clue about Justine or where she lives, unless. Think through the books and how Eb has learned about Thomas.
Ebenezer probably knows nothing about Thomas being at Bianca's party or that Thomas helped Harry after Duke Ortega tried to cheat during the duel at Wrigley Field. But Ebenezer hears rumors that Harry has been seen in the company of a White Court vampire. Harry directly intervenes in White Court vampire politics, which seems to help Lord Raith. We can't know if the White Council has figured out that Lara Raith is really in charge and that her dad is now just her puppet, though at some point they probably figure it out. From Captain Luccio, if not before, Eb learns the White Court Vampire Harry is seen hanging out with is Thomas Raith. From Listens to Winds, Ebenezer finds out Harry fought a naagloshii in order to return Thomas to his people. Finally, Ebenezer sees Thomas fighting alongside Harry and his other allies at Chichen Itza. After Harry seemingly returns from the dead, Eb might have heard that Harry was again seen with Thomas.
In the past eight or nine years Ebenezer has visited Harry in Chicago twice. The first time Eb visited to help hunt down Mavra and the second time Eb and Harry had dinner after... I don't even remember which book any longer. (Small Favor or Turn Coat?) It's unlikely that Ebenezer knew about Thomas the first time because he would have said something about Thomas, especially after Eb told Harry that Lord Raith had killed Harry's mother. I think it's also unlikely Ebenezer said anything during their off camera dinner together. Harry would have said that Ebenezer was repeating himself, that Eb had said this the last time they had dinner together, but Harry didn't. So all of this means that Ebenezer McCoy has been doing some deep research on Thomas Raith, or having someone else do it for him.
Now I want to point out something no one else seems to have mentioned. Harry asked himself why Thomas attacked Etri. (Assuming it was Thomas and not something complicated; like Austri was mind whammied into attacking his boss and Thomas was actually defending Etri by killing Austri. Normally Occam's Razor would rule something like this out, but at least half the damn book is missing so who knows what new clues will turn up in the first few chapters of Battle Ground.) Evanna said, "Well Raith? Do you have anything to say?" OK, she could be acting, but at least she's acting like she and her people have been wronged. Justine asked "Why? Why Harry? I don't understand why he would do that." Lara said, "Thomas couldn't have screwed this up any harder if he'd had a year to plan it." That statement is a bit vague, but what does Lara stand to gain by attacking Etri? Again, maybe we'll find out something in Battle Ground, but right now it doesn't make sense. You know who doesn't ask "Why Thomas?" or anything similar? Ebenezer and the wardens. It's almost as if they don't need to ask any questions because they already know, or at least one of them does.
Finally, Harry says that Carlos and the Council will, "...want to meet about the ramifications of an apparent assassination attempt by the White Court on Etri..." Except that doesn't happen. Ebenezer flat out tells Harry that Thomas is going down for the killing. There's no political discussion or what it means for the talks. Carlos and the other wardens think Harry has been turned by Lara so at least their behavior makes some sense.
I think it's a very small assumption, warlocks are quite literally replaced by inhuman beings, there's a plot, if not against her(although the case can and has been made for that) then certainly to save her in PG. She's told to use fear while violating free will and Leah changes how she operates by showing her the fae way of using fear without violating the laws, which leads her to become a better candidate for winter lady. Then we have fearbringer who manifests itself from the supernatural fear Molly specifically has caused or fed. It having the functional form of the scarecrow, his height, while wearing what amounts to the ragged cloth described in GS as what is left of Harry's duster which she used as her calling card earning her the name rag lady. I personally think it's a big assumption to think she's not, or that quite clearly more is not going on there then explicitly said.There is a plot in Proven Guilty to kill Harry, Molly was a tool to further that plot, if it had been successful she and Harry would have died. Michael raises this idea at the end. And for what it's worth the idea is reinforced by Eb.
“The past few years have shown them that you aren’t someone who is easily removed the direct way. They’re going to start trying alternate methods.”If that was true there was no reason to Nemfect Molly. And by implication if Harry is a mortal who is immune to the taint of Nemesis then all mortals are at risk, since they aren't Starborn.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 30). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
“Only that it is entirely possible, Harry Dresden, that this entire affair, beginning to end, is meant to protect you. That when I went to the aid of Luccio and her trainees, I did so not to free Molly, but to prevent you from coming to blows with the Council. That her position as your new apprentice had less to do with protecting her than it did protecting you?”When viewed through this lens it all makes sense. It answers all the mysteries except who fixed LC. Molly was never Nemfected. Harry is saved from death twice. First from LC and second from the Council at the trial.
“Sometimes,” Thomas said, “I hate what I am. I hate being me.”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 4). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
“I don’t know what to do,” Thomas said. “If I lose her . . .”So what would you do if someone offered you a way out?
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 2). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
He nodded. “Probably. I have a solution in mind,” he said. “I’ll work on it. Good enough?”All within Chapter One.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 4). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The fishy lady is Sandra Marling. And I think Jim has forgotten her.yea, Marling, a fish. Like Ms Somerset.. NN beings either aren't too good at fake names or real like their irony, maybe a little of both lmao..(which is why I'm still wondering about commissioner Fairweather, though that one was probably forgotten for a much more convoluted plot against Murphy)
I've never heard your theory before... And it's kinda confusing... Where did you draw your conclusions from? I haven't read PG in awhile..
I choose to believe DR is too basic and foreign to be Nfected, to believe otherwise pretty much screws reality without recourse and seems like an easy out for nemesis that would have been tried already.
I think Nemesis can infect mortals.
If a non-starborn wizard were to do what Harry did to the cornerhounds -- opening his mind up to the Outside -- would that kind of Corruption be Nemesis? Or just another kind of madness?
Re: Justine's madness -- if Thomas's feeding was the only thing keeping her sane, what's going to happen to her when Thomas is locked away in a cell??
Ok ok.. mmm(click to show/hide)